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Author Topic: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?  (Read 4466 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gunnarr
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« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2013, 05:44:16 AM »

Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.

I'd like to see any actual evidence that it was close to happening.



Ecumenical PAtriarch Meletius had the Holy Synod accept Anglican orders as valid. As far as I know, this decision is still "valid" too.

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.
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« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2013, 07:45:55 AM »

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?
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« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2013, 02:56:36 PM »

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"
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« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.
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« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2013, 04:20:08 PM »

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

How would you define concelebration? 
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« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2013, 05:17:31 PM »

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

Right ... unless perhaps there's such a thing as "concelebrating vespers".
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« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2013, 07:03:37 PM »

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

How would you define concelebration? 

Sharing the chalice. Pretty much.
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« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2013, 08:22:10 PM »

Sharing the chalice. Pretty much.

You mean like common ownership and use of the chalice on some sort of rotating schedule?  Tongue

I think limiting concelebration to communing is a rather narrow and inaccurate definition, and convenient too.  There's a whole lot of liturgical celebration that liturgical ministers do before you get to the Communion, and you need not "concelebrate" to receive Communion.  But if Communion is where the line is drawn, then almost anything can be justified as long as you don't cross that line.  Your particular definition is not Orthodox by any recognised Orthodox standard. 

In the case Gunnarr brought up, the Greek ambassador claims the bishop vested.  If this is simply a matter of showing up in a mantia and carrying a staff, then I'd lean toward not considering this an example of concelebration.  "Taking part" in an Anglican service can mean a number of things, as can "praying with Anglicans".  Preaching and blessing is not wrong by any reasonable standard. 

On the other hand, a Greek ambassador presumably knows the difference between ecclesiastical "street wear" and liturgical vestments.  Were these vestments?  And what was the intent behind venerating the altar?  I don't know if you can absolutely rule out concelebration in this case, there's not enough information, even though I think it probably wasn't concelebration. 
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« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »

As it relates back to the topic, what made me visit an Episcopal church was that the traditions seemed older, the sacraments meant something, and it felt more traditional than having a rock band play at you. The Catholic church I then visited was actually far less traditional and a lot more like a Methodist service. I then went to another and it was about the same. ... I just found it interesting that the Episcopal service was more "high" than either of the two Catholic services I went to.

Yep. Ironic.

One theory behind that fact in American Catholicism is from the musicologist Thomas Day. He says that even before Vatican II, American Catholics weren't really high-church because when they were persecuted back in Ireland they couldn't have showy religion.

Episcopalianism is semi-congregational so maybe until recently it was possible to have Episcopal parishes that were more conservative and more 'Catholic' than Catholic ones. Got the benefit of that as a kid.
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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »

Semi-Presbyterian.
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« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2013, 09:31:53 PM »

I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

Lutherans only accept Baptism, Absolution, and Communion as Sacraments by and large. I don't believe any Protestants except the Anglicans (and not all of them) accept all seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church, which are basically the same Sacraments as in the Orthodox Church (we can fight it out about the anointing of kings, but for the most part, it's those seven).

Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2013, 01:06:00 AM »

To sum up, the affinity was because the Anglicans claimed apostolic succession too, and because of that, and both not being under Rome, some Anglicans had an affinity for the Orthodox and reached out to them. (Looking for a pre-'Reformation' church to grant them legitimacy, since Mother Rome would do no such thing.) There was intercommunion in practice in some places (the Greeks and the Episcopalians). But some Orthodox such as Raphael of Brooklyn 100 years ago got wise that the Anglo-Catholics didn't speak for Anglicanism.

Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.

I dunno. Maybe on paper, but unbelief has been pretty common among them since the 'Enlightenment' (America's founding fathers: nominal Episcopalians who were agnostics). Until recently, conservative in the sense of the Conservative or the Republican Party at prayer. Theologically, not so much.
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2013, 05:16:46 AM »

Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.

I can certainly agree with the first sentence. But like TYF, I don't know about the second ... seems to me that the old-time Anglicans were relatively liberal for their time period. Not that that was all bad, mind you ... certainly nothing wrong with being tolerant of RCs, Protestants, and Orthodox.
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« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2013, 08:39:49 AM »

Of course to both Catholics and Orthodox, the 'Reformation' was a turn away from traditional Christianity. That said, except for ecclesiology (Articles XIX and XXI), sacramentology, and ceremonial, classical Anglicans kept much of it: credal orthodoxy and the ancient Greek and medieval Catholic view of reason as conforming yourself to objective reality (which even the 'Enlightenment' didn't completely get rid of, so civilization still flourished), not doing whatever I want; anything that tries to stop me is just superstition (feminism and homosexualism for example).

And, again, to 19th-century Orthodox meeting the West, the break wasn't obvious since their first religious contact with Anglicans was from Anglo-Catholics approaching them, sincerely telling them what they wanted to hear.

The late Catholic columnist Joe Sobran wrote that he was thankful for having grown up in a Protestant country run by tolerant old-school liberal mainliners. Religious liberty and the free market, plus, actually, taking a break from immigration in the '20s in order for the country to catch its breath, created a great home for Catholics and Orthodox here by the '50s. (Halting immigration raised the opportunities and living standard for the Catholics and Orthodox already here.) A prosperity not possible back in Europe.

Besides the basics of the faith and the old Mass, the SSPX (the late, great Archbishop Lefebvre's group) and I have little in common, a reason why I can live in the official church as reformed by Pope Benedict. (But I acknowledge the good the SSPX does.) The European monarchists and fascists (not a dirty word, only a description) who run the SSPX are understandably suspicious of the American experiment's origin with heretics, as Rome was for many years. Yes, be careful, but economic and religious liberty are good.
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« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2013, 09:48:42 AM »

And high-Episcopal parishes such as St Paul's, K Street in DC aren't doing Sarum. Sarum was a flowery version of the same Roman Rite as the Tridentine Mass. The Book of Common Prayer, old and new, is a new creation, not a translation of Sarum. American Anglo-Catholics historically use the BCP but with ceremonial based on pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Catholic practice, varying by place and now of course mixed with modern Catholic practice too. (Again, modern Episcopalians, unlike Catholic liberals, love our stuff.)
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« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2013, 10:55:30 PM »

And high-Episcopal parishes such as St Paul's, K Street in DC aren't doing Sarum. Sarum was a flowery version of the same Roman Rite as the Tridentine Mass. The Book of Common Prayer, old and new, is a new creation, not a translation of Sarum. American Anglo-Catholics historically use the BCP but with ceremonial based on pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Catholic practice, varying by place and now of course mixed with modern Catholic practice too. (Again, modern Episcopalians, unlike Catholic liberals, love our stuff.)

Have the priests at Saint Paul's on K Street ever performed the Sarum Rite? I've been there a few times, and during Christmastide, I could have sworn that my guide for the evening mentioned something about the Sarum Rite. At the very least, I know that the priests were wearing "Sarum blue" vestments, but I think there was more to that particular Divine Liturgy than just vestmental-colours.

May I ask, are you part of the Anglican Ordinariate? I've really wanted to visit an Anglican Ordinariate church; I believe the closest one to D.C. is in Silver Spring. In fact I vaguely remember it being near the ACROD church of the area, but I could be wrong.
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« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2013, 12:49:48 AM »

There have been both Anglican and Catholic re-enactments of Sarum; I don't know if K Street has ever done one. Sarum revivals were always more popular in England, among high-church liberal Anglicans there, than among Episcopalians. Sarum blue during Advent is fairly popular among Anglicans now.

I'm not in the American ordinariate but would like to see Mt. Calvary, Baltimore, now that it's Catholic: the pre-Vatican II ceremonial but in English that I like to see. I think the parish closest to DC is another ex-Episcopal one that kept its building, St Luke's, Bladensburg, MD.

The ordinariate's really for married ex-Anglican priests who want to be Catholic priests and for laity who miss the Prayer Book. I'm happy having the Tridentine Mass. (Here one group of converts from what was an extreme Anglo-Catholic parish, which did the Tridentine Mass in English, have done the same but are at a different parish from mine.)

I like the Prayer Book but I don't miss it so much that I need it every week.

The Prayer Book works with pre-Vatican II Catholic ceremonial - the American Anglo-Catholic style - in spite of Cranmer's Protestantism because Cranmer kept enough of the Catholic Church's general worldview for it to work.

Recognition of Anglican orders by some Orthodox patriarchates has always been with the understanding that IF the whole Anglican Communion gave up Protestantism and entered Orthodoxy, those patriarchates would receive them in their orders. Moot as it will never happen. So the Orthodox, including those patriarchates, treat Anglican orders just like the Catholic Church does: void. Such clergy are reordained.
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« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2013, 07:22:14 AM »

^^ Quite frankly, I think throwing the n-word around ("never") with regard to reunion is as silly those who speak as though reunion will happen any time now.
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« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2013, 08:32:10 AM »

Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American. But thoroughly Protestant. Back to square one: the 'Reformation' revisited, trying to convince classical Protestants to come back to the church. Might there be an Oxford Movement, Part II among them, in which, remaining non-papal, they turn east, like the American convert boomlet among evangelicals 20 years ago? Or become Catholic like in the first one? Maybe. The whole denomination switching? Probably not.
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« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2013, 09:09:59 AM »

Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.
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« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2013, 08:38:18 AM »

Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.

I just saw you live in Maryland. And for all this time I thought you lived in England.
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« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2013, 02:34:53 AM »

Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.

A lot of that seems to fit what I wrote. Sure, there might be a big split but again the white liberal high churchmen are dying out: the Episcopalians and the dominant faction of the Church of England. I can imagine Parliament disestablishing the C of E, after which, like the American 'neocons', the English Evangelicals will go under the Africans. You'll have an African denomination with a few British and American members, not a British or American one. Mainstream Western society, while still culturally Christian (political correctness is a Christian heresy on steroids), no longer needs liberal churches, which is why the mainline, including the liberal high Anglicans I mentioned, is disappearing.
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« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2013, 07:00:44 PM »

This is the most pretentious thread of all time. Almost as annoying as the history club kids talking about what countries are gonna be superpowers next century.
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