Author Topic: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?  (Read 31210 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2015, 11:12:09 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.
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Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2015, 10:41:32 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2015, 11:10:40 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:14:37 AM by Hawkeye »
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2015, 11:19:51 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:21:55 AM by NoahB »
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2015, 11:22:22 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2015, 11:25:02 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:25:38 AM by NoahB »
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2015, 11:30:16 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?

Why would you? And St. John Goldenmouth was Byzantine.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2015, 11:36:30 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?

Why would you? And St. John Goldenmouth was Byzantine.

Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2015, 11:38:52 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2015, 11:43:53 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.

Right.

Just out of curiosity... have you ever been to a Divine Liturgy where they used Rachmaninoff's or Tchaikovsky's arrangement? Or is it unheard of to do such a thing.
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2015, 11:44:16 AM »
Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.

I don't know -- when I go to an Orthodox church and here Orthodox music I feel very "right." I would feel much less "right" if any part of ritual or teaching were changed to seem as tho I were going to some other church. So all I'm saying is now you know at least one other Western Christian without the feelings you attribute to us all.

(Besides, where were you previously attending that had music by Gregory and not Marty?)

And again, Byzantine chant was not directly linked with "Greek drops of blood." It was a world music from a cosmopolitan center with Roman roots. Granted, in the modern world and in America there is a close connection. But why that should repel you, I don't understand.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2015, 11:45:23 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.

Right.

Just out of curiosity... have you ever been to a Divine Liturgy where they used Rachmaninoff's or Tchaikovsky's arrangement? Or is it unheard of to do such a thing.

I've never been to a Divine Liturgy, period.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2015, 11:48:25 AM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2015, 11:51:44 AM »
Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.

I don't know -- when I go to an Orthodox church and here Orthodox music I feel very "right." I would feel much less "right" if any part of ritual or teaching were changed to seem as tho I were going to some other church. So all I'm saying is now you know at least one other Western Christian without the feelings you attribute to us all.

(Besides, where were you previously attending that had music by Gregory and not Marty?)

And again, Byzantine chant was not directly linked with "Greek drops of blood." It was a world music from a cosmopolitan center with Roman roots. Granted, in the modern world and in America there is a close connection. But why that should repel you, I don't understand.

I didn't mean to speak for you, I apologize. However, in my own experience this was the case.

That's your personal preference, though. If you like Byzantine music, then by all means, go to a church where they use it. As for me, though, I feel like a goose in a crowd of ducks. It's also worth mentioning that I had the misfortune of attending an "ethnic club" church that was more focused around being a socializing point for Greek people than actual Orthodoxy. I got a cold shoulder when they found out I wasn't Greek. That might contribute a bit to my feelings.

If plainchant was being used before the Great Schism I don't see what the problem would be. Heck, even if it was used afterwards... it's not like I'm proposing a Heavy Metal Liturgy.
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2015, 11:55:08 AM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?

If you're talking to me, I'm not Orthodox. I'm an Anglo-Catholic (Classical Anglican). However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.
"God became man, so that men might become gods." -- St. Athanasius

"His was the word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what is word doth make it,
That I believe and take it." - Queen Elizabeth I

Offline eddybear

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2015, 11:55:39 AM »
Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.
I have some sympathy for you there. Anglican music, whether hymns or chant, is familiar to me, whereas a lot of Byzantine music sounds strange to my ear, and just doesn't resonate. If it's of interest, I've found that Russian Orthodox chant (e.g. from the Valaam monastery) sounds a lot more familiar to my western ear than Greek chant.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2015, 12:00:36 PM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?

If you're talking to me, I'm not Orthodox. I'm an Anglo-Catholic (Classical Anglican). However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Well then. See, it was a pertinent question.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2015, 01:44:47 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2015, 01:59:57 PM »
I have some sympathy for you there. Anglican music, whether hymns or chant, is familiar to me, whereas a lot of Byzantine music sounds strange to my ear, and just doesn't resonate. If it's of interest, I've found that Russian Orthodox chant (e.g. from the Valaam monastery) sounds a lot more familiar to my western ear than Greek chant.

That's because it probably is Western.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2015, 02:01:25 PM »
I have a question for some of you folks in the latter part of this thread: What do you think of the Three Hierarchs?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2015, 02:05:13 PM »
A trio of ethnics from Asia Minor, yes? Obsolete at that. The "Western churches" need to be cut free of them for "a couple of hundred years" and "let things take their course" organically.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2015, 02:22:31 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.

Anglicanism as it exists under the See of Canterbury is apostate. They ordain homosexuals and women as clergy. One bishop wrote a book denying the virgin birth and saying that Jesus was the result of the Blessed Virgin Mary being raped by a Roman soldier. He also said it would be fine if she had an abortion. Those are the Apostates who now exist under the See of Canterbury.

HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

I've studied Orthodoxy seriously for about a year now, and Anglicanism even before that. There are only a few differences. The first is filioque, which both Westerners and Easterners can agree is more a semantical issue than anything else, since we both believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son. The wording is quite deceptive in the filioque. Secondly, our view on tradition is different. We believe that Scripture is the word of God and anything outside of it is not necessary for salvation. THAT BEING SAID, however, the scripture does mandate an oral tradition. This tradition is not on par with the Word of God, though. So, for example. If you believed that we shouldn't venerate icons, that would be fine for you to believe in Anglicanism, since the veneration of icons is not required. You are, however, missing out on the fullness of the faith and probably wouldn't be allowed to become a priest. We can argue whether the Scripture is part of Tradition or whether Tradition proceeds from Scripture, but I find the latter view much more logically sound and Patristically verified. The third major difference is that our Bishop are allowed to be married. This is something I find to be extremely important. How are you supposed to understand the problems of family life if you don't have a wife or kids? Saint Peter, one of the greatest of the apostles was married. Therefore, it makes sense that those in succession to him may also be married. Chastity is not the life for everyone. We only FORMALLY recognize 2 sacraments, though we would probably be more than happy to add the other 5 if we needed to since we perform them anyway, but don't call them sacraments.

   Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:23:25 PM by NoahB »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2015, 02:36:34 PM »
Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.

If by "most obvious" you mean most likely to be noticed by someone who is not familiar with either church, then you may be right.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:38:25 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2015, 02:42:09 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.

Anglicanism as it exists under the See of Canterbury is apostate. They ordain homosexuals and women as clergy. One bishop wrote a book denying the virgin birth and saying that Jesus was the result of the Blessed Virgin Mary being raped by a Roman soldier. He also said it would be fine if she had an abortion. Those are the Apostates who now exist under the See of Canterbury.

HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

I've studied Orthodoxy seriously for about a year now, and Anglicanism even before that. There are only a few differences. The first is filioque, which both Westerners and Easterners can agree is more a semantical issue than anything else, since we both believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son. The wording is quite deceptive in the filioque. Secondly, our view on tradition is different. We believe that Scripture is the word of God and anything outside of it is not necessary for salvation. THAT BEING SAID, however, the scripture does mandate an oral tradition. This tradition is not on par with the Word of God, though. So, for example. If you believed that we shouldn't venerate icons, that would be fine for you to believe in Anglicanism, since the veneration of icons is not required. You are, however, missing out on the fullness of the faith and probably wouldn't be allowed to become a priest. We can argue whether the Scripture is part of Tradition or whether Tradition proceeds from Scripture, but I find the latter view much more logically sound and Patristically verified. The third major difference is that our Bishop are allowed to be married. This is something I find to be extremely important. How are you supposed to understand the problems of family life if you don't have a wife or kids? Saint Peter, one of the greatest of the apostles was married. Therefore, it makes sense that those in succession to him may also be married. Chastity is not the life for everyone. We only FORMALLY recognize 2 sacraments, though we would probably be more than happy to add the other 5 if we needed to since we perform them anyway, but don't call them sacraments.

Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.

With respect to icons, I suspect there might be less of a gap between you and the OO (who also venerate icons but do not require it to the extent the EO do, since they never experienced the iconoclast controversy). Armenians in particular use relatively few icons. On the other hand, there's also the issue of Chalcedon (for some reason, many early Anglican divines and Protestant reformers accepted the first four councils rather than the first three or seven, which is odd. Why stop at four, especially when no church prior to that point had done so)?

Celibacy for bishops is a discipline, not a doctrine; many early bishops were married. At some point (not sure when) an ecumenical council mandated that bishops be monks (and therefore celibate). However, such decrees are, in theory, reversible, but only if another holy synod agreed to reverse it. I don't think that's likely to happen, except possibly via economia (i. e, "grandfathering" in married Anglican bishops, but not allowing the ordination of "new" ones).
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2015, 04:18:10 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #160 on: February 27, 2015, 06:47:55 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2015, 06:49:41 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #162 on: February 27, 2015, 06:53:17 PM »
A trio of ethnics from Asia Minor, yes? Obsolete at that. The "Western churches" need to be cut free of them for "a couple of hundred years" and "let things take their course" organically.

Your usual sanctimonious crap aside, you're missing my point. If the Western Churches become autocephalous and the home grown populations begin to naturally outnumber the immigrants, then their inherited forms of worship will begin to evolve into more British, German, etc. style liturgies. That's how it worked in Russia.

That was ALL I meant.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2015, 06:54:39 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #164 on: February 27, 2015, 07:38:11 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2015, 08:15:53 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.
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Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2015, 08:18:18 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2015, 09:00:58 PM »
All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?

Yes it must be that simple, to apply it to your vagante group (or even, arguably, Anglicanism as a whole). King Henry "didn't really care" about his five articles? Is this why he condemned the entirely of the clergy to death, moved ahead with executing some of them, and then presented the five articles (and an extremely huge fine) as their only hope of pardon? But if so, then your ecclesiastical lineage would be even more to blame for naming him sole Supreme Head of the Church.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 09:01:40 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2015, 09:48:37 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2015, 02:18:18 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:18:32 PM by OrthoNoob »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2015, 02:55:23 PM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?
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Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2015, 04:05:04 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.
How well do you know the Orthodox view of how Tradition works if you think yourself qualified to make such a statement?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2015, 06:20:31 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2015, 06:37:49 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
Not entirely. It is certainly a typical argument I've come across in a lot of my research into the Western Rite.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2015, 12:31:59 PM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?

So, everything in general and nothing in particular?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »
Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically.
In Anglicanism, we do things organically by committee.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:39:14 AM by Mockingbird »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2015, 10:41:32 AM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?

So, everything in general and nothing in particular?

I can't help myself - I am going to nitpick here - so feel free to sneer! How does one know that one has an accurate perception of the justice of God?
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2015, 02:58:58 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
Not entirely. It is certainly a typical argument I've come across in a lot of my research into the Western Rite.
It is a typical argument, to be sure. However, the real answer is far simpler. The Church says its Orthodox, so it is. Everything else is really moot. Of course to say I am biased is an understatement.

PP
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 02:59:21 PM by primuspilus »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #178 on: June 22, 2015, 09:08:05 PM »
I'm wondering, has there ever been theological dialogue between the Orthodox and historic black churches in the USA (such as AME)? Many of these churches have roots in Anglicanism (via Methodism in some cases). They tend to be quite a bit more traditional than the white mainline Protestants are, and because they have deep historical roots, they generally aren't as fad-driven or hyper-individualistic as evangelicals are. The most recent Pew survey shows that these churches are demographically doing very well, more so than Catholics or mainliners. I was reading an article about AME in the paper this morning, sadly, the coverage was prompted by the recent tragedy in Charleston.

The persecution they've experienced throughout history (on the basis of race) is unusual in an American context, but is something many Orthodox people could sympathize with (for example, Abp. Iakovos participated in the Selma march and said that the ethnic prejudice he experienced growing up in Turkey was part of the reason he identified with the civil rights movement).

I've also encountered some Orthodox who've expressed appreciation for aspects of black American church traditions (in particular, spirituals).

It seems like apart from the Anglicans, these churches probably have more in common with Orthodoxy than any other Protestant church.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:10:22 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #179 on: June 22, 2015, 09:24:41 PM »
I'm wondering, has there ever been theological dialogue between the Orthodox and historic black churches in the USA (such as AME)? Many of these churches have roots in Anglicanism (via Methodism in some cases). They tend to be quite a bit more traditional than the white mainline Protestants are, and because they have deep historical roots, they generally aren't as fad-driven or hyper-individualistic as evangelicals are. The most recent Pew survey shows that these churches are demographically doing very well, more so than Catholics or mainliners. I was reading an article about AME in the paper this morning, sadly, the coverage was prompted by the recent tragedy in Charleston.

The persecution they've experienced throughout history (on the basis of race) is unusual in an American context, but is something many Orthodox people could sympathize with (for example, Abp. Iakovos participated in the Selma march and said that the ethnic prejudice he experienced growing up in Turkey was part of the reason he identified with the civil rights movement).

I've also encountered some Orthodox who've expressed appreciation for aspects of black American church traditions (in particular, spirituals).

It seems like apart from the Anglicans, these churches probably have more in common with Orthodoxy than any other Protestant church.

+1

I agree on all points, Minnesotan.  I remember reading somewhere that H.E. Archbishop Theofan of the Albanian Church was engaged in some sort of dialogue with one of the historically black denominations in his area back in the day, near the end of his life, but I don't think anything came of it after his repose.  There is certainly fertile soil for dialogue there.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:25:09 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.