Author Topic: Church of the Acts in the Bible, unbroken lineage to Eastern Orthodox Church  (Read 6156 times)

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Offline pasadi97

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Is there any other Church that can trace its direct lineage from Church of Jerusalem from Acts of Apostles?

Uninterrupted lineage of Church of Jerusalem from Acts of Apostles in Bible

We can say Orthodox Church is the Church of the Bible and this lineage can confirm it.  The rule of the thumb was you come with innovations, you out.

The Leaders of the Jerusalem Church from Apostle James seen in Acts of Apostles in Bible, to today Patriarch of Jerusalem .
James the Just (until 62) Liturgical Church
Simeon I (62–107) Liturgical Church
Justus I (107–113) Liturgical Church
Zaccheus (113–???) Liturgical Church
Tobias (???–???) Liturgical Church
Benjamin I (???–117) Liturgical Church
John I (117–???) Liturgical Church
Matthias I (???–120) Liturgical Church
Philip (???–124) Liturgical Church
Senecas (???–???) Liturgical Church
Justus II (???–???) Liturgical Church
Levis (???–???) Liturgical Church
Ephram (???–???) Liturgical Church
Joseph I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Judas (???–135) Liturgical Church
Marcus (135–???) Liturgical Church
Cassianus (???–???) Liturgical Church
Poplius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Julian I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Gaius I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Symmachus (???) Liturgical Church
Gaius II (???–162) Liturgical Church
Julian II (162–???) Liturgical Church
Capion (???–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus II (???–???) Liturgical Church
Antoninus (???–???) Liturgical Church
Valens (???–???) Liturgical Church
Dolichianus (???–185) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (185–???) Liturgical Church
Dius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Germanion (???–???) Liturgical Church
Gordius (???–211) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (restored) (???–231) Liturgical Church
Alexander (231–249) Liturgical Church
Mazabanis (249–260) Liturgical Church
Imeneus (260–276) Liturgical Church
Zamudas (276–283) Liturgical Church
Ermon (283–314) Liturgical Church
Macarius I (314–333), since 325 Bi Liturgical Churchshop of Jerusalem
Macarius I (325–333) Liturgical Church
Maximus III (333–348) Liturgical Church
Cyril I (350–386) Liturgical Church
John II (386–417) Liturgical Church
Praulius (417–422) Liturgical Church
Juvenal (422–458), since 451
Patriarch Juvenal (451–458) Liturgical Church
Anastasius I (458–478) Liturgical Church
Martyrius (478–486) Liturgical Church
Sallustius (486–494) Liturgical Church
Elias I (494–516) Liturgical Church
John III (516–524) Liturgical Church
Peter (524–552) Liturgical Church
Macarius II (552, 564–575) Liturgical Church
Eustochius (552–564) Liturgical Church
John IV (575–594) Liturgical Church
Amos (594–601) Liturgical Church
Isaac (601–609) Liturgical Church
Zacharias (609–632) Liturgical Church
Modestus (632–634) Liturgical Church
Sophronius I (634–638) Liturgical Church
vacant (638–???) Liturgical Church
Anastasius II (???–706) Liturgical Church
John V (706–735) Liturgical Church
Theodore (745–770) Liturgical Church
Elias II (770–797) Liturgical Church
George (797–807) Liturgical Church
Thomas I (807–820) Liturgical Church
Basileus (820–838) Liturgical Church
John VI (838–842) Liturgical Church
Sergius I (842–844) Liturgical Church
vacant (844–855) Liturgical Church
Solomon (855–860) Liturgical Church
vacant (860–862) Liturgical Church
Theodosius (862–878) Liturgical Church
Elias III (878–907) Liturgical Church
Sergius II (908–911) Liturgical Church
Leontius I (912–929) Liturgical Church
Athanasius I (929–937) Liturgical Church
Christodolus (937–950) Liturgical Church
Agathon (950–964) Liturgical Church
John VII (964–966) Liturgical Church
Christodolus II (966–969) Liturgical Church
Thomas II (969–978) Liturgical Church
vacant (978–980) Liturgical Church
Joseph II (980–983) Liturgical Church
Orestes (983–1005) Liturgical Church
vacant (1005–1012) Liturgical Church
Theophilus I (1012–1020) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus I (1020–???) Liturgical Church
Joannichius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Sophronius II (???–1084) Liturgical Church
Euthemius I (1084) Liturgical Church
Simon II (1084–1106) Liturgical Church
Savvas (1106–11??) Liturgical Church
John VIII (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
Nicolas (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
John IX (1156–1166) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus II (1166–1170) Liturgical Church
Leontius II (1170–1190) Liturgical Church
Dositheos I (1190–1191) Liturgical Church
Marcus II (1191–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1223) Liturgical Church
Euthemius II (1223) Liturgical Church
Athanasius II (1224–1236) Liturgical Church
Sophronius III (1236–???) Liturgical Church
Gregory I (???–1298) Liturgical Church
Thaddaeus (1298) Liturgical Church
vacant (1298–1313) Liturgical Church
Athanasius III (1313–1314) Liturgical Church
vacant (1314–1322) Liturgical Church
Gregory II (1322) Liturgical Church
vacant (1322–1334) Liturgical Church
Lazarus (1334–1368) Liturgical Church
vacant (1368–1376) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus I (1376–1417) Liturgical Church
Theophilus II (1417–1424) Liturgical Church
Theophanes I (1424–1431) Liturgical Church
Joachim (1431–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1450) Liturgical Church
Theophanes II (1450) Liturgical Church
vacant (1450–1452) Liturgical Church
Athanasius IV (1452–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1460) Liturgical Church
Jacob II (1460) Liturgical Church
vacant (1460–1468) Liturgical Church
Abraham I (1468) Liturgical Church
Gregory III (1468–1493) Liturgical Church
vacant (1493–1503) Liturgical Church
Marcus III (1503) Liturgical Church
vacant (1503–1505) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus II (1505–1537) Liturgical Church
Germanus (1537–1579) Liturgical Church
Sophronius IV (1579–1608) Liturgical Church
Theophanes III (1608–1644) Liturgical Church
Paiseus (1645–1660) Liturgical Church
Nectarius I (1660–1669) Liturgical Church
Dositheos II (1669–1707) Liturgical Church
Chrysanthus (1707–1731) Liturgical Church
Meletius (1731–1737) Liturgical Church
Parthenius[disambiguation needed] (1737–1766) Liturgical Church
Ephram II (1766–1771) Liturgical Church
Sophronius V (1771–1775) Liturgical Church
Abraham II (1775–1787) Liturgical Church
Procopius I (1787–1788) Liturgical Church
Anthemus (1788–1808) Liturgical Church
Polycarpus (1808–1827) Liturgical Church
Athanasius V (1827–1845) Liturgical Church
Cyril II (1845–1872) Liturgical Church
Procopius II (1872–1875) Liturgical Church
Jerotheus (1875–1882) Liturgical Church
Nicodemus I (1883–1890) Liturgical Church
Gerasimus I (1891–1897) Liturgical Church
Damianus I (1897–1931) Liturgical Church
Timotheus I (1935–1955) Liturgical Church
vacant (1955–1957) Liturgical Church
Benedict I (1957–1980) Liturgical Church
Diodoros I (1981–2000) Liturgical Church
Irenaios I (2001–2005) Liturgical Church
Theophilos III (2005–Present) Liturgical Church


 Liturgical Church:  Apostles wrote Holyu Liturgies describing Sunday Service in detail. The leader of the Church of the Acts of the Apostles , Apostle JAmes wrote Liturgy of JAmes to be celebrated on Sunday. Other Liturgies were wrotten by Apostle Peter, Mark.

Litugy Apostle JAmes:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKoJS7ABVc,
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ac8J7Wuis

All Churches before 1500 are LITURGICAL CHURCHES. A wrong doctrine appeared after 1500, a novelty THAT NEVER EXISTED BEFORE, sola scriptura that threw out of the window the writings of Apostles outside the Bible, including Holy Liturgies describing step by step the SUNDAY SERVICES.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 08:34:50 PM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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You won't have any disagreement here...

Now, one could argue that the whole thing is a fraud... but you'd have to deny the historical record.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P

Offline Minnesotan

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P

Not to mention having so many "vacant"'s in it.

Anyway, I'm sure the OO and RC could each come up with a similar list. As could ACOTE with their patriarchs going back to Thaddeus.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:05:41 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Severian

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Online Volnutt

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

Online Volnutt

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:37:46 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online Volnutt

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Severian

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Online Volnutt

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Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Severian

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:50:56 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice.

Offline mike

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"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Online Volnutt

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You didn't translate "Cool story, bro," into Adûnaic or Taliksa.

No points! >:(
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Severian

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^It's in honor of St. Ignatius of Antioch. Not quite sure why they picked the tradition up so late in the timeline.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Offline mike

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You didn't translate "Cool story, bro," into Adûnaic or Taliksa.

No points! >:(

Quenya

Mara quentasta, hano.
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Offline orthonorm

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Is there any other Church that can trace its direct lineage from Church of Jerusalem from Acts of Apostles?

Uninterrupted lineage of Church of Jerusalem from Acts of Apostles in Bible

We can say Orthodox Church is the Church of the Bible and this lineage can confirm it.  The rule of the thumb was you come with innovations, you out.

The Leaders of the Jerusalem Church from Apostle James seen in Acts of Apostles in Bible, to today Patriarch of Jerusalem .
James the Just (until 62) Liturgical Church
Simeon I (62–107) Liturgical Church
Justus I (107–113) Liturgical Church
Zaccheus (113–???) Liturgical Church
Tobias (???–???) Liturgical Church
Benjamin I (???–117) Liturgical Church
John I (117–???) Liturgical Church
Matthias I (???–120) Liturgical Church
Philip (???–124) Liturgical Church
Senecas (???–???) Liturgical Church
Justus II (???–???) Liturgical Church
Levis (???–???) Liturgical Church
Ephram (???–???) Liturgical Church
Joseph I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Judas (???–135) Liturgical Church
Marcus (135–???) Liturgical Church
Cassianus (???–???) Liturgical Church
Poplius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Julian I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Gaius I (???–???) Liturgical Church
Symmachus (???) Liturgical Church
Gaius II (???–162) Liturgical Church
Julian II (162–???) Liturgical Church
Capion (???–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus II (???–???) Liturgical Church
Antoninus (???–???) Liturgical Church
Valens (???–???) Liturgical Church
Dolichianus (???–185) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (185–???) Liturgical Church
Dius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Germanion (???–???) Liturgical Church
Gordius (???–211) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (restored) (???–231) Liturgical Church
Alexander (231–249) Liturgical Church
Mazabanis (249–260) Liturgical Church
Imeneus (260–276) Liturgical Church
Zamudas (276–283) Liturgical Church
Ermon (283–314) Liturgical Church
Macarius I (314–333), since 325 Bi Liturgical Churchshop of Jerusalem
Macarius I (325–333) Liturgical Church
Maximus III (333–348) Liturgical Church
Cyril I (350–386) Liturgical Church
John II (386–417) Liturgical Church
Praulius (417–422) Liturgical Church
Juvenal (422–458), since 451
Patriarch Juvenal (451–458) Liturgical Church
Anastasius I (458–478) Liturgical Church
Martyrius (478–486) Liturgical Church
Sallustius (486–494) Liturgical Church
Elias I (494–516) Liturgical Church
John III (516–524) Liturgical Church
Peter (524–552) Liturgical Church
Macarius II (552, 564–575) Liturgical Church
Eustochius (552–564) Liturgical Church
John IV (575–594) Liturgical Church
Amos (594–601) Liturgical Church
Isaac (601–609) Liturgical Church
Zacharias (609–632) Liturgical Church
Modestus (632–634) Liturgical Church
Sophronius I (634–638) Liturgical Church
vacant (638–???) Liturgical Church
Anastasius II (???–706) Liturgical Church
John V (706–735) Liturgical Church
Theodore (745–770) Liturgical Church
Elias II (770–797) Liturgical Church
George (797–807) Liturgical Church
Thomas I (807–820) Liturgical Church
Basileus (820–838) Liturgical Church
John VI (838–842) Liturgical Church
Sergius I (842–844) Liturgical Church
vacant (844–855) Liturgical Church
Solomon (855–860) Liturgical Church
vacant (860–862) Liturgical Church
Theodosius (862–878) Liturgical Church
Elias III (878–907) Liturgical Church
Sergius II (908–911) Liturgical Church
Leontius I (912–929) Liturgical Church
Athanasius I (929–937) Liturgical Church
Christodolus (937–950) Liturgical Church
Agathon (950–964) Liturgical Church
John VII (964–966) Liturgical Church
Christodolus II (966–969) Liturgical Church
Thomas II (969–978) Liturgical Church
vacant (978–980) Liturgical Church
Joseph II (980–983) Liturgical Church
Orestes (983–1005) Liturgical Church
vacant (1005–1012) Liturgical Church
Theophilus I (1012–1020) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus I (1020–???) Liturgical Church
Joannichius (???–???) Liturgical Church
Sophronius II (???–1084) Liturgical Church
Euthemius I (1084) Liturgical Church
Simon II (1084–1106) Liturgical Church
Savvas (1106–11??) Liturgical Church
John VIII (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
Nicolas (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
John IX (1156–1166) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus II (1166–1170) Liturgical Church
Leontius II (1170–1190) Liturgical Church
Dositheos I (1190–1191) Liturgical Church
Marcus II (1191–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1223) Liturgical Church
Euthemius II (1223) Liturgical Church
Athanasius II (1224–1236) Liturgical Church
Sophronius III (1236–???) Liturgical Church
Gregory I (???–1298) Liturgical Church
Thaddaeus (1298) Liturgical Church
vacant (1298–1313) Liturgical Church
Athanasius III (1313–1314) Liturgical Church
vacant (1314–1322) Liturgical Church
Gregory II (1322) Liturgical Church
vacant (1322–1334) Liturgical Church
Lazarus (1334–1368) Liturgical Church
vacant (1368–1376) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus I (1376–1417) Liturgical Church
Theophilus II (1417–1424) Liturgical Church
Theophanes I (1424–1431) Liturgical Church
Joachim (1431–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1450) Liturgical Church
Theophanes II (1450) Liturgical Church
vacant (1450–1452) Liturgical Church
Athanasius IV (1452–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (???–1460) Liturgical Church
Jacob II (1460) Liturgical Church
vacant (1460–1468) Liturgical Church
Abraham I (1468) Liturgical Church
Gregory III (1468–1493) Liturgical Church
vacant (1493–1503) Liturgical Church
Marcus III (1503) Liturgical Church
vacant (1503–1505) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus II (1505–1537) Liturgical Church
Germanus (1537–1579) Liturgical Church
Sophronius IV (1579–1608) Liturgical Church
Theophanes III (1608–1644) Liturgical Church
Paiseus (1645–1660) Liturgical Church
Nectarius I (1660–1669) Liturgical Church
Dositheos II (1669–1707) Liturgical Church
Chrysanthus (1707–1731) Liturgical Church
Meletius (1731–1737) Liturgical Church
Parthenius[disambiguation needed] (1737–1766) Liturgical Church
Ephram II (1766–1771) Liturgical Church
Sophronius V (1771–1775) Liturgical Church
Abraham II (1775–1787) Liturgical Church
Procopius I (1787–1788) Liturgical Church
Anthemus (1788–1808) Liturgical Church
Polycarpus (1808–1827) Liturgical Church
Athanasius V (1827–1845) Liturgical Church
Cyril II (1845–1872) Liturgical Church
Procopius II (1872–1875) Liturgical Church
Jerotheus (1875–1882) Liturgical Church
Nicodemus I (1883–1890) Liturgical Church
Gerasimus I (1891–1897) Liturgical Church
Damianus I (1897–1931) Liturgical Church
Timotheus I (1935–1955) Liturgical Church
vacant (1955–1957) Liturgical Church
Benedict I (1957–1980) Liturgical Church
Diodoros I (1981–2000) Liturgical Church
Irenaios I (2001–2005) Liturgical Church
Theophilos III (2005–Present) Liturgical Church


 Liturgical Church:  Apostles wrote Holyu Liturgies describing Sunday Service in detail. The leader of the Church of the Acts of the Apostles , Apostle JAmes wrote Liturgy of JAmes to be celebrated on Sunday. Other Liturgies were wrotten by Apostle Peter, Mark.

Litugy Apostle JAmes:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKoJS7ABVc,
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ac8J7Wuis

All Churches before 1500 are LITURGICAL CHURCHES. A wrong doctrine appeared after 1500, a novelty THAT NEVER EXISTED BEFORE, sola scriptura that threw out of the window the writings of Apostles outside the Bible, including Holy Liturgies describing step by step the SUNDAY SERVICES.

PotM!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.

Those ought to be the dates during which they occupied the see, not birth and (necessarily) death.  

Offline orthonorm

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P

Haterz gonna hate.

The questions marks show the mystery which is required of any faith.

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.

Those ought to be the dates during which they occupied the see, not birth and (necessarily) death.  
Ok. But we still seem to know the sequence with no gaps in it until the 20th Century.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.

Those ought to be the dates during which they occupied the see, not birth and (necessarily) death. 
Ok. But we still seem to know the sequence with no gaps in it until the 20th Century.

There are sixteen bishops named "vacant" from the seventh century to the sixteenth century, at least one of whom reigns for the greater part of a century, and only one named "vacant" in the twentieth.  In the second century itself, there are five or six bishops named between 124 and 135 but no initial and final dates of their reigns, so, at the very least, their traditional order in the list can be called into question.  After 135, the same thing happens for another three decades or so.  The list has a lot of inconveniences like that.   

I don't have a problem with these lists per se (every patriarchate maintains such lists), but if the idea is to prove some unbroken succession merely by throwing out a bunch of names and dates, such an endeavour will only go so far and is only a part of what we would consider "apostolic succession".       

Offline wgw

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Note in the Church of Jerusalem, that see was actually basically vacant from the destruction of most of the city after the Bar Khokba Revolt, in which it became a purely administrative center with a new name (Aeolia Capitolina IIRC) and access restricted to Romans.  So the center of Christianity in Judaea shifted to Caesarea, where it remained until Jeeusalem was restored following the pilgrimage of St. Constantine's wife, St. Helen, who also rediscovered the Holy Cross, which is universally commemorated on September 14th, and on other days as well in different rites (in the Byzantine Rite there is a specific feast for the Finding of the Holy Cross).

So there are in fact three major patriarchal sees with an uninterrupted Apostolic pedigree: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch (in ancient order of precedence).  I am suspicious of any pedigrees that attempt to link Constantinople with St. Andrew, not because I doubt he visited the area or dispute his patronage (his patronage of Scotland seems more far fetched), but rather because the town of Byzantium was at most a minor Bishophric, and most likely a parish, at most, for most of the time between St. Andrews apostolate and the designation of the city and its substantial enlargement and reconstruction as New Rome under Constantine.

But I have no doubt in the apostolic origin and continuity of the Roman, Alexandrian and Antiochene churches.  However under ancient canon law, Rome has left the reservation, so depending on whether you are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, either Constantinople or Alexandria now posesses Primus inter pares status and the judicial prerogatives of the senior most Patriarch in terms of dispute resolution.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.

Those ought to be the dates during which they occupied the see, not birth and (necessarily) death. 
Ok. But we still seem to know the sequence with no gaps in it until the 20th Century.

There are sixteen bishops named "vacant" from the seventh century to the sixteenth century, at least one of whom reigns for the greater part of a century, and only one named "vacant" in the twentieth.  In the second century itself, there are five or six bishops named between 124 and 135 but no initial and final dates of their reigns, so, at the very least, their traditional order in the list can be called into question.  After 135, the same thing happens for another three decades or so.  The list has a lot of inconveniences like that.   

I don't have a problem with these lists per se (every patriarchate maintains such lists), but if the idea is to prove some unbroken succession merely by throwing out a bunch of names and dates, such an endeavour will only go so far and is only a part of what we would consider "apostolic succession".       
My mistake. I wasn't scanning the list close enough.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Note in the Church of Jerusalem, that see was actually basically vacant from the destruction of most of the city after the Bar Khokba Revolt, in which it became a purely administrative center with a new name (Aeolia Capitolina IIRC) and access restricted to Romans.  So the center of Christianity in Judaea shifted to Caesarea, where it remained until Jeeusalem was restored following the pilgrimage of St. Constantine's wife, St. Helen, who also rediscovered the Holy Cross, which is universally commemorated on September 14th, and on other days as well in different rites (in the Byzantine Rite there is a specific feast for the Finding of the Holy Cross).

Not just in the Byzantine rite. 

Offline wgw

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Indeed.  Sadly I lack an English language Pengitho, and while I do have a Syriac liturgical calendar, it's difficult to remember the feasts when most of the liturgical material specific to them isn't in English.  Don't get me wrong, I am devoted to the Rite, but I really really really wish there was an English language Pengitho so I could know what the Priests are chanting at the chant stand at Morning Prayer, et cetera.  But at least I have now a proper common of the Divine Office for each day of the week, and access to a better lectionary thanks to the Malankara Church, which is an upgrade.  But the wealth of English language resources that exist for the Coptic and Byzantine Rites do not yet exist for the Syriac Rites, aside from the Maronites.  There is also a great need for more documentation of Ethiopian and Armenian liturgy.

If I strike it rich in some commercial enterprise which is unlikely given by present theological fixation, I intend to pay you or another Syriac speaker to translate all the service books for me and send people to record every variation of the Beth Gazo and every divergent Syriac Orthodox parish liturgical practice they find.  As it is I'm planning on working with a Coptic monk friend to try and write an Arabic language survey to send to Syriac Orthodox priests in the Middle East to document the practices at their parishes (or former parishes for those who are refugees).  Father Ephraim and I talked about doing this but he got too busy juggling being a priest, a dad and a doctoral candidate.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline pasadi97

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We saw that at least administratively, Eastern Orthodox church is the continuation of Church in the Acts of Apostles that was established in Jerusalem.

If we look at Churches appearing after 1500 we see human founders , and usually nothing similar with the Church that existed before.

You can love Jesus in Church established by Apostles, that I think is Eastern orthodox Church and you can love Jesus in a Church with human founders contradicting Apostles teachings for example at icons. In one it said it was based on founder understanding of Scripture. Can a MAN, founder be wrong in his understanding of scripture? Apostle and Evangelist Luke painted icons and a lot of founders understanding of Scripture is wrong saying that icons are bad.

Why is important to be in Church established by Apostles?
One reason would be that the Church established by Apostles does not contradict Apostles teachings so it is important that what you believe to be true.

I found this question interesting: Why is good to be in the True Church rather than in a Church appearing after 1500?

You have access to the Holy Communion close to the way Apostles did it.
You are more defended by the teaching of men.......... usually starting from founder understanding of scripture that are different even between different people .
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:18:19 PM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline wgw

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There is certainly no denying that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches have a direct connection with Jesus Christ and preserve the ancient traditions of the church such as iconography.

Please remember though this site is pan Orthodox and regards all of the Orthodox churches including Eastern, Oriental, Old Calendarist and Old Ritualist, with the exception of Vagante jurisdictions that embrace homosexuality and so on, and are not "canonical" in any sense, as being Orthodox for purposes of discussion, while at the same time allowing members to have their own opinions as to which one is the One True Church.   In other words, on this particular forum, we should not get into flame wars about which Orthodox Church is right and properly Orthodox.  Not wishing to steal the mods thunder, but rather to point the conversation in a productive direction.  The private boards if memory serves do allow for such debates but I don't enter into them.   Again not wishing to steal the mods thunder.   But there are hose on this board who feel the Oriental Orthodox Church is the real one, and the mods of this site have heroically worked out a system whereby both groups can talk and love each other side by side.

I for my part just like to bask in the fact that we all have apostolic succession.  So we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  And we have to learn from each other, and immerse ourselves in Patristics, which is nectar for the soul.  Understanding the Fathers lets us understand the Bible, and guides us on the path of Theosis.  Christ, God, became man, and trampled down death by death, so that through His grace we could also become sons of Goe by adoption.  This is what all the ancient fathers tell us.  So when a church with apostolic succession preaches this doctrine, which is the true Gospel, and exposes us to the narrative that is Christianity through iconography, hymnography and the sacred Liturgy as a whole, we know we are in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Offline ialmisry

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Maybe using a list riddled with question marks to demonstrate a definite, unbroken lineage wasn't the best idea.  :P
The question marks are in the wrong place to make your point :P

Oh? 

The fact that we don't know what year some of these were born or died is immaterial. The fact is it was one bishop after another all the way from the First Century until that modern vacancy.

Those ought to be the dates during which they occupied the see, not birth and (necessarily) death. 
Ok. But we still seem to know the sequence with no gaps in it until the 20th Century.

There are sixteen bishops named "vacant" from the seventh century to the sixteenth century, at least one of whom reigns for the greater part of a century, and only one named "vacant" in the twentieth.  In the second century itself, there are five or six bishops named between 124 and 135 but no initial and final dates of their reigns, so, at the very least, their traditional order in the list can be called into question.  After 135, the same thing happens for another three decades or so.  The list has a lot of inconveniences like that.   

I don't have a problem with these lists per se (every patriarchate maintains such lists), but if the idea is to prove some unbroken succession merely by throwing out a bunch of names and dates, such an endeavour will only go so far and is only a part of what we would consider "apostolic succession".       
The idea is that the episcopate is a whole, each member holding it entire with the others, to paraphrase St. Cyrpian.

I posted an analogy with the House of Representatives vested with legislative authority along with the power to credential its members, which presupposed some knowledge of American history and constitutional theory (not common knowledge today-even in America:
I drafted this a year ago, but never posted.  Might as well now.
to be continued....
to be cont....

(btw, regarding the Apostolic Constitutions, I'll add this to the list of sources autenticating them as part of Traditions, c. VIII of Ephesus: "Our brother bishop Rheginus, the beloved of God, and his fellow beloved of God bishops, Zeno and Evagrius, of the Province of Cyprus, have reported to us an innovation which has been introduced contrary to the ecclesiastical constitutions and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and which touches the liberties of all")

Now, as to the lines and lists of bishops as "successors of x."  To further my analogy, let me use the 7th/18th (the number will be discussed below: it's important on this issue) congressional district of Illinois, the one that Abraham Lincoln represented in the House.

Now, Illinois, or rather Pays des Illinois, was part of New France.  It didn't have any legislature (for that matter, neither did Old France at the time), and so was not part of the representative rights of the 13 English colonies posted above. That doesn't concern us, except for what it left: a large white, French population which had set up a society with the native Amerindians, making the settlement/future capital Kaskaskia the largest town West of the Appalachians (trivia: this capital is now under the Mississippi, and at the last census had 9 persons and perhaps is now even lower).  In 1763 France ceded the land to Great Britain, but the inhabitants didn't get representation, because the Royal Proclamation of 1763 ordered the French white settlers out (and preventing English settlerscoming in) in favor of treaties with Amerindian Nations (who, as foreign nations, didn't have representation in the English system of things).  In 1774 the Whites were allowed to stay, but as part of Quebec: the Quebec Act being one of those the Americans called the "Intolerable Acts," and it continued government without representation in Illinois. 

One reason why the Act was "intolerable" was that the British Crown had, in competition at the time with the French, had extended the jurisdiction/sovereignty of its maritine colonies by the charters granted on the coast into the interior of the continent, claims that became enforceable with the defeat of France. England had chartered Virginia with boundaries going from the Atlantic North and Northwest from Jamestown, where England gave her, as the embodiment of the colonists' right to represenation, the House of Burgesses (the first representative body in the Western Hemisphere), which later reconstructed itself in 1776 in the midst of revolution as the Virginia General Assembly.  By that Assembly, Virginians sent their delegates to the Continental Congress.

George Clark (brother of Clark of "Lewis and Clark") of the Kentucky county (part of which went on to become the State of Kentucky) was commissioned by the Virginia General Assembly in 1777 in the midst of the American War of Independence to enforce Viriginia's claims in her charter against Quebec in the effort against the British crown.  Clark had gone and found out that the French and Indian Illinoisans had no representation and no love for the British king.  Clark went on to capture Kaskaskia and the Virginia Assembly incorporated it as the Illiniois County.  As such, the Franco-Amerindian society were made citizens of VA (as such, they were exempt from a lot of Acts of Congress, being VA citizens), with the right of representation as described above for the 13 colonies. In fact, Illinois was incorporated as with the same status as James City Shire, now County, the first county of Virginia, per the terms of the Virginia charter as interpretated by the Virginia Assembly. IL, included the future 7th district, and dominated at the time, including the future 7th Cong. Dist. IL, still by the Franco-Amerindian population with VA citizenship, got its first representation.  (btw, Abraham Lincoln's father Thomas was born in this VA-KY-IL megastate).

In 1781 Virginia ceded Illinois country (along with the future 7th Cong. Dist. IL) to the United States in Congress Assembled, to induce the other, smaller states, to ratify the Articles of Confederation, which transformed the Congress Assembled into the Congress of the Confederation, which became completely legal when in 1783 Great Britain granted Virginia here independence. North Carolina followed suit, and cededed its claims West of the Alleganies to the Congress of the Confederation to pay its debts: the United States in Congress Assembles failed to accept, and the inhabitants feared the land to be sold off to France or Spain, and proclaimed the State of Franklin, which was not recognized by Congress and was retaken by North Carolina.  In 1789 North Carolina ratified the present Constitution and sent its 5 representative to the U.S. Congress according to Article I Section 2.  The land that it had ceded made up the 5th Congressional District (later Tennessee).  After North Carolina's 5th representative, John Sevier (erstwhile governor pretendor to the State of Franklin) was seated, Congress accepted the cession of the terriory, but he stayed in the house, although he no longer represented a state, but what was now federal land.  The New Federal Congress organized his former district in the Southwest Ordinance by applying mutatis mutandis (i.e. allowing slavery) the Northwest Ordinance of the old United States in Congress Assembled, which (art. 12) provided for a non-voting delegate to Congress.  The Northwest Territory did not meet the requirements to choose a delegate, but the Southwest Territory already had the experience of Sevier.  However, the Congress that had written the Ordinance had, with the adoption of the present Constitution by all 13 states, ceased to exist, and there was question about the constitutionality under the new constitution of the territorial delegate.  The Congress took the 1790 census as the opportunity to rectify the situation, and John Sevier was assigned to a 5th district within North Carolina, but it had set the precedent of a non-voting representive delegate to Congress by citizens not part of a State: William B. Grove succeeded him in the 2nd Congress representing NC's 5th district, John White (a former delegate of North Carolina to the Confederation Congress) was sent once the Southwest Territory organized its territorial government.  There was some debate, as to the status of White elected by provisions of the unicarmal Confederation Congress to the Bicarmal U.S. Congress and whether he would be a represenative, a senator or both, but White took his seat, follwoing Sevier's precedent in the House. The following congress, the territory qualified to petition for statehood, the first U.S. territory to do so, and John White's tenure ended when Andrew Jackson was elected to replace him as the Congressman at large for Tennessee with the adoption of the state constitution by the territorial government and its acceptance by the U.S. Congress, at which point the U.S. Constitution, and not the Southwest Ordinance, became controlling as to representation. 

So when in 1799 the Northwest Territory finally met the requirements of setting up its own government, it had a precedent that had been set up on its own NW Ordinance, and it sent its non-voting representative delegate to Congress, William Harry Harrison (the future 9th U.S. President, the first to die in office), and Illinois (dominated at the time, including the future 7th Cong. Dist. IL, still by the Franco-Amerindian population) got its first regular representation.  Harrison served until Congress seperated from the Northwest Territory the Indiana territory (including IN, IL and its 7th district, WI, and parts of MN and MI), when the President and Senate appointed him governor of the new Territory (without asking him). The organizing Act allowed Harrison to act as executive but appoint the legislative and judicial branches, whose acts had to receive his approval.  When Harrison tried to use this power to repeal the prohibition on slavery in the NW Ordinance, Congerss gave his appointees the right to decide, and the power to select a delegate, and one of the number of appointees, Benjamin Parke, was sent. In Congress, he tried to persuade it to allow slavery: it suspended the prohibition for 10 years, but instituted direct election of the representatives in the territories, replacing Harrison's powers. Parke joined Harrison in the executive, and Jesse B. Thomas, the Speaker of the Territorial General Assembly, replaced him as delegate in the U.S. Congress.  The elected representatives of St. Claire county blocked the legalization of slavery, and petitioned to be detached as a seperate territory, which was granted by the Act Dividing the Indiana Territory at the end of the 10th Congress, which created the Illinois Territory. Organized during the 11th U.S. Congress, the census during it established that IL had met the population requirements for a delegate, Shadrach Bond (nephew of Shadrach Bond who served on George Clark's expedition to take Kaskaskia for Virginia), who was seated the next Congress.  Thomas resigned his seat and moved to IL's capital.  Six years later in 1818 Congress gave the residents of the Illinois territory (the present IL boudnaries, including the future 7th Cong. Dist. IL) "the right of admission...on an equal footing with the original states" and "enabled...to form a constitution and state government" "by their representatives in convention," and Thomas presided over the Constitutional Convention to petition for statehood, and he became Senator from IL, creating the seat that Obama held, while Bond became the first state governor. Bond's successor as delegate, Nathanial Pope, had served as the territory's secretary (the 2nd in power after the governor) due to the influence of his brother John, Senator from Kentucky, before becoming delegate, while their cousin Ninian Edwards was made governor, and then Senator at admission, creating the seat that Stephen Douglas beat Abraham Lincoln for, and which Dick Durbin holds now.  Nathanial's nephew, Daniel Pope Cook (after whom Chicago's Cook county was named)  was beat out by only 14 votes to serve the remainder of Nathaniel's term (he resigned after convincing Congress to move the state's northern boundary to include what would become Chicago), but was elected after IL statehood as the state's representative at large, including the future 7th district, which continued until the 1830 census, according to the Constitution, gave IL three representatives, and the 1840 census gave 7. As the population core shifted from Kaskaskia, in the Southwest, to Chicago, in the Northeast, the districts became progressively smaller and district 1 and the following ended up in Chicago, such that the 7th district now is in Chicago-in fact, Barack Obama's home district, represented by Bobby Rush, who defeated Obama for the seat-and the seat of the territory of Abraham Lincoln's (1847-9) 7th District now lies in what is the 18th congressional district.  If IL's population, and hence representative delegation, declines, the two districts may remerge.

Both discricts had representatives whose history is germaine to the analogy being made.  In the remainder of the days of Lincoln's 7th district, his successor James C. Allen was elected to the 33rd Congress, but the 34th Congress decided he was not entitled to the seat, which was left vacant until he was reelected by the special election to fill it. He became Clerk of the House of the 35th Congress, and hence the holder of the legislative authority of the U.S. House of Representatives until the 36th Congress. In that Congress, due to redistricting, the seat became the 11th district, eventually to become by subsequent redistricting the 18th IL District, which it reached when the future Speaker Joseph Cannon represented it.  As the 18th district it has been represented by Bob Michael (who holds the dupious honor of being the longest serving minority leader in the house: if he ran instead of retired, he would have been the Speaker) and Ray Lahood (now Transportation Secretary).   

In what continued as the 7th district, edging from its Eastern regions to Lake Michigan, until it was contained within Chicago.  It has now begun, by restricting by the constriction of IL's congressional delegation, streching back West.

But that is not all: Lincoln's 7th district covered areas now redistricted into districts other than the present 7th and 18th, including the 19th district, for instance, represented by William B. McKinley (who chief claim to fame is that he was defeated for re-election to the senate seat that Obama and now Sen. Burris filles.  The senate, because of the fraud in the campaign, refused to seat McKinley's opponent Frank Smith, who resigned only after McKinley died), and the 14th district, which Cannon served as first represented but subsequent reapportionment (Cannon was the first representative to serve nearly a half century, a record unbroken until 1958) landed him in the 18th: his successor in the 14th district, Denny Haster, also succeeded him as Speaker and then as the longest serving Republican speaker.

So, who Lincoln's successor is a question: is it  Aaron Schock, at present the youngest member of congress, who replaced Lahood in represented the physical area of Lincoln's congressional seat?  Is it Bobby Rush, whose district continues the institution of the Illinois 7th Congressional District?   Did William B. McKinley succede Lincoln as representative because McKinley's district was carved out of the 18th, although McKinley neither represented the contemporary 7th district institution nor the area of the old 7th district seat?  And are they all successors of Harrison (who represented their future districts as delegate for the NW Territory when it included IL), Thomas (who represented their future districts as delegate for the Indiana territory when it included IL), Bond (who represented IL when a territory) and Cook (who represented IL at large at the first congressional elections since statehood)? Are all Clerks of the House successors of Abraham Lincoln, as he vested his representative authority in the Clerk of the House before he departed?  Does James Allen have two lines of succession from Lincoln, as he both represented Lincoln's district and during a hiatus from representation, served as Clerk of the House?  Did Congress deciding that Allen was not entitled to his seat disrupt the succession?  Did his reelection to fill that vaccancy restore it?  When there have been hiccups like this, or like Sen. wanna be Frank Smith, or the question over Burris' appointment to the same seat by a disgraced and soon impeached governor, how has this effected the succession?

What we have is an abstract principle (representative government), made concrete by procedure (election and swearing in by the Clerk of the House, who has been vested with the legislative authority of the previous House) based on mandate (Article I of the U.S. Constitution's codification of the existing power of representation) which embodies representation in the individuals so empowered to act as representatives. Since, as James Allen (and Frank Smith and Roland Burris) learned, the House has the power to validate the authority of the individual representatives, represenation does not depend on the individual representatives, as the Constitution determines and guarentees (but does not originate) the power of represenation which the people of the individual states possess. Such power was strenthened by the 14th Ammendment, which gave Congress the power to remove the disability of former Confederates to serve as representatives.  Conversely, except when the House elects the president (which has happened, and had been discussed as a possibility in 2000), the individucal representative is not bound  by the state delegation of which he is part.  Delegates are in the position where they are empowered by the representative power of the people of their territory, but have no power under the Constitution to exercise legislative power. Not a technicality: the Constitution still does not provide delegates besides the powers given to the House (a constitutional case waiting to happen since '93): the present ones originated in the 60's when territories started electing representatives, who, however, were not all credentiated and allowed in the House until 2008. Representation is held by the House of Representatives as an institutional whole, not piecemeal as the sum of the parts of the individual representatives. Then there is the issue of officiers, like the Speaker: although the district reelecting a representative gives him the edge, based on seniority, for an office, it does not correlate directly to office, as the House has the power as the institution to elect its officiers, and can indeed elect a Speaker who is not a representative.  By tradition, it has never done so, so when Tom Foley lost reelection (the first speaker to do so in over a century), he was basically out of a job, whereas the fact that Denny Hastert sat in (one of) Speaker Canon's seat didn't give him the job. And the officiers derive their authority from the House, not their power as a representative: Canon acted as autocrat (having been sent by IL to  the House for nearly continously for 28 years) of the House, Chairing the Rules Committee as well as the Speakership, and arrogating to himself committee appointments, which he did by loyalty with disregard of seniority: when a constituent wrote his representative for a copy of the House Rules, the Representative sent the photo of Cannon.  When Canon had already set the record as the longest speaker, a revolt occured when the progressive Republicans by a series of procedural motions and votes stripped Canon of his power to appoint committee positions and deposed him from the rules committee.  He saved face by then moving for a motion to remove him from the speakership-knowing that the Republicans would not risk a Democratic speaker-which he survived, but powerless, being taught that the powers of the speaker derive from the House, not that the House derive them from the Speaker.

As such, who is the successor of Lincoln adds luster (the 18th District and its representative make much of being "Lincoln's district"), it adds no substance.  Not that that means it is meaningless: the senior Senator of NH gets Daniel Wesbster's desk, and the senior senator of MS gets Jefferson Davis' in the senate.  If the House still had desks as they did in Lincoln's day (a plack on the floor of the old House Chamber marks its spot), I'm sure their would be a question whether Schock or Rush (who is also in a three way tie as dean of the IL Delegation) would get it.

So too the episcopacy is an institutional whole (like the House) which empodies Apostolic succession (like the House embodies represenative government) trasmitted by ordination (as representation is by election and swearing in by the House Authority) as mandated by Tradition in Scripture and Canon (as the Constitution codifies, but does not create, representation).  As the House has power to discipline and expel members that do not live up to their oath of office or are disqualified for whatever reason (like James Allen being disqualified and then succeeding his own vaccancy by special election), so too the episcopacy has the power to depose heretical bishops. Delegates may represent, but not constitutionally legislate, like auxiliary/chorbishops oversee but do not ordain.  Bishops may come in Holy Synods of Autocephalous Churches (like congressional delegations from the particular states) but they are are independently bishops (as are representatives), acting only as a unit when questions like recognition of an Ecumenical Council or other Pan-Orthodox issues are at stake (like representatives vote as a state only in election of the president).

So when it comes to bishop Y being the successor of bishop X, what that means only is that the episcopacy as a whole has put Y in the same spot as X to exercise the power in the same capacity as X was empowered, whether X lived up to that responsibility or not.  So, for instance, EP Bartholomew is successor to Nestorius, who was successor to St. John Chrysostom and St. Andrew, but only up to Nestorius' deposition by the episcopacy in the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, after which +Bartholomew is successor to Nestorius' Orthodox successor Maximianus, and Nestorius' episcopacy became as null as was James Allen's representation when the House held he was not entitled to his seat: Allen was restored by special election, Nestorius could have been through repentance, as he had been urged to do.
 
Since the canons require the bishop to preserve the integrity of his diocese (as representative do within the confines of redistricting), the succession of bishops begin to reflect on the dicoese.  Constantinople was headed by Dempophilos, Nestorius, Acacius, Sergius and Anastasios and by St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. John Chrysostom, St. Antatolius, and St. Germanos. The former, however, do not nullify the see as successor of St. Andrew (anymore than the misdeeds of the IL delegation nullifies its representation) and their influence is filtered out by the world episcopacy (much like the House purges the representatives).  The latter, reflecting Orthodoxy and hence the Truth that does not pass away, are what remain (like Lincoln and Cannon are remembered as represenative of the IL delegation).  As such, the various sees have relics as reminders of that (like the Daniel Webster's desk or what would have happened to Lincoln's desk).  The Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria has two crowns, given originally when he mediated between the Emperor and the EP: the took their hats (or their crowns) off to him.  Eusebius writes of the Church at Jerusalem showing the Throne (the only cathedra he so calls) of St. James, and Constanitnople shows the seat from which St. John Chrysostom preached.  Russians give (by the hand of the Met. of Kiev) the Patriarch the staff of Patriarch St. Peter of Kiev and Moscow (who established the latter as the seat of the Patriarchate) at his enthronment.  Such things underline continuity, but do not constitute it.

The above civics lesson is complex.  Well, often enough the history of the episcopal line, autocephalies, Churches, etc. the facts are just as convoluted but none the less valid: "the episcopacy remains one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole."  Nothwithstanding that, you have the issues of the line of the three consecrators, the line of the see the new bishop is ordained to, and the lines of the sees that he is transferred (not ordained, which happens once) to and through.

Take Rome for instance: Benedict XVI can be said to be the successor of St. Peter, as he presides in the see St. Peter founded with St. Paul, whom B XVI can also be said to succeed.  But long ago that line, like Speaker Cannon, decided that the episcopacy derives its authority from him, rather than the Pope of Rome serving as the point on which the bishops focus their authority.  As such, this line at present has no authority, as it is cut off from the episcopacy.  It tries to pull what Cannon did to the Republicans, forcing a vote of confidence as Republicans, in this case trying to define Catholic as being in union with him.  But, much like the following Congress which swept Cannon and his Republicans from power in the House, the Orthodox aren't buying it, despite the origins of Rome.

Constantinople calls itself the Mother Church of Orthodoxy.  However, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia and Cyprus do not owe their origin to Constantinople.  Her motherhood comes from her role in the development of the modern Patriarchates (which includes Russia). It does not derive from her founding by St. Andrew, as Georgia, Romania and Russia also claim origins by St. Andrew.  The Church of Greece, in a way, is senior to Constantinople: several of the major sees of the CoG were founded by St. Paul and St. Andrew, who was martyred in Patras.  However, as the House has power to raise its own officiers, so too the episcopate has the power to elevate any see as seems fit, which the Fathers did at the Second and Fourth Councils. The problem has been with all the canon 28 barbarian superjurisdiction, the "protos" of Ravenna etc. show confusion over the source of Constantinople's authority, which comes from the episcopacy and not the reverse. 

Another analogy may be made between Constantinople and Virginia: a number of Patriarchates, evangelized by the former became autocephalous, and part of its core due to historical circumstances, became the Church of Greece.  Virginia is called the Mother of States, because of the number of states formed out of the territory VA gave up to the common US government, and West Virginia became a state due to historical circumstances.  Said Patriarchates are now equal to Constantinople, as the states are equal to VA.  The latter all have the fullness of representation, the former all have the fullness of apostolic succession.

VA also provides another analogy, along with the other confederate states, to the EP: Constantinople claimed to grant, then abolish, then restore the Serbian and Bulgarian Patriarchates, just like the Radiical Republican Congress claimed the right to bar, and then readmit, the representatives of the former Confederate states, a move of dubious constitutionality as "abolishment" of a patriarchate is of dubious canonicity:neither representation nor Apostolic succession (barring heresy) can be compromised. The Bulgarian, Romanian-Bulgarian of Turnovo and the Serbian patriarchates all used Rome (whose original jurisdiction they were in) as the means of organizing and obtaining an autocephalous Orthodox Church, and as such resemble more the admission of Texas (and in like manner the Californian and Hawaiian Republics) as a state with representation, bearing even more a similtude in that the Bulgarians, Romanians and Serbs were Orthodox, just as the formers of the Texas (and Californian and Hawaiian Republics) had been Americans.

Alexandria was founded by St. Mark the evangelist, but although he did so under St. Peter's direction from Rome, and although Pope St. Gregory confessed Alexandria with Antioch as Petrine Sees like Rome, the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria are spoken of as successors of St. Mark, not St. Peter.  In fact, Alexandria, youngest of the Pentarchy, and Jerusalem, the oldest, both set the precedent of deriving a see from a founding figure, rather that tracing its episcopal line as far back as possible: although, as Acts shows us, St. Peter founded the Church at Jerusalem with Christ, the Patriarch has always been referred to as the succeessor of St. James, despite the fact that Tradition tells us St. Peter (with the disciples St. John and St. James) consecrated St. James to the see. So just as  Shadroch Bond is considered the first representative of Illiniois, although William Harrison has represented it when it was part of the NW Territory, so too Alexandria and Jerusalem are distinguished by a founding figure (St. Mark and St. James) unique to themselves, as opposed to St. Peter, who founded Antioch and Rome as well, which in a sense better distinguishes the Patriarchate as their own local Church.

In Antioch, SS Peter and Paul founded the Church there before they went on to found the Church of Rome.  Due to the decline of the city from earthquakes and war, and the migration of Syrian governance from Antioch to Damascus, in 1342 Pat. Ignatius II transferred the Patriachate to Damascus.  However, the Patriarch still has his cathedra and Cathedral in Antioch, although he resides in Damascus.  Although his Patriarchate is on the Street Called Straight where St. Ananias baptized St. Paul, HB Patriarch Ignatius IV does not preside as the successor of St. Ananias, but of St. Peter.  In the analogy of the 7th District, Bobby Rush, and not  Aaron Schock, woudl be the successor of Abraham Lincoln.  An analogy may be made with Congress itself: it constituted itself in New York, moved to Philadelphia and then settled in Washington, all the while remaining the same institution.

Another example in the precedent of Alexandria and Jerusalem would be Cyprus, which defended its autocephaly against Antioch by asserting its founding by St. Barnabas, and indeed backed that up with the invention of the relics of St. Barnabas with the Gospel of Matthew in his hand to prove it.  The argument could be made from the book of Acts that this still made Cyprus subject to Antioch, according to the openign of Acts 13.  Such reasoning, however, was not in evidence when the episcopacy in Ecumenical Council assebled, and affirmed Cyprus' autocephaly (much like Congress seperated the Illinois territory from Harrison's jurisdiction).  Although St. Peter founded Antioch, and Antioch consecrated and sent St. Barnabas (and St. Paul) to found the Church at Cyprus, Cyprus has never been considered a Petine see at all. Cyprus would seem to be like West Virginia: its seperativeness was present in the original colony, as shown by those representatives in the West opposed to those in the rest of the state, as Virginia counted slaves (who didn't vote) for representation but not taxation and the West had few slave owners or slaves.  Only the opportunity of the War between the States (like the rejection of Ephesus by Antioch while being accepted by Cyprus) brought the breach into clear view, and Congress was in the position to affirm it.

The largest local Church, Russia, has a torturous history.  The Acts of St. Andrew, and Russia tradition, state that St. Andrew evangelized the area.  An Encyclical of St. Phontius of c. 867 tells that the Rus Khaganate rushed so zelously to Christ after the Bulgars' conversion that he found it prudent to send a bishop.  Both Roman and Muslim sources predating 989 state that the Rus Khaganate had embraced Christianity, the bishop of Rus ranking 61st among Orthodox Bishops by 912, and 60th by 959 (according to the lists kept by the Emperors Leo VI and Constantine VII).  But the Patriarchs of Moscow begin its history with St. Michael I, who was sent as Metropolitan from Constantinople when St. Vladimir was baptized in 988 (although it alludes to St. Andrew in his Tropar's begin:"The prophecy of the first-called apostle has been fulfilled today/Grace has illumined the hills of Kiev and the faith is increased").  In 1154 Grand Prince Izyaslav II of Kiev called the monk Clement to succeed Met. Michael of Kiev, without seeking the EP's blessing.  The EP sent St. Constantine I as Metropolitan to investigate, and he deposed Clement and those he ordained.  When this caused a schism, in 1158 the EP sent Theodore as Metropolitan, at the request of the Rus, who deposed both St. Constantine and Clement.   His successor Maximus, Metropolitan of Kiev moved to Vladimir, and then his successor St. Peter Metropolitan of Kiev and all the Rus settled the see in Moscovy in 1335, becoming the Metropolitan of Kiev and Moscow and all the Rus.  St. Jona from Galich was ordained by Met. Only with the synod that elevated the see of Moscow to a Patriarchate did Met. St. Job of Kiev, Moscow and All of the Rus (installed 1587) become Patriarch of Moscow and all the Rus(sia) in 1589. (EP Jeremias II, who presided over the synod, had volunteered himself for the position: had he been chose, Church history would have been very interesting.).  The False Dmitry deposed Pat. St. Job his last year and installed Arb. Ignatius of Ryazan (from Crete, sent by the EP Jeremias II), who, after the Rurik dynasty was restored, himself was deposed (and later submitted to the Vatican and became that rarity, a "Russian Catholic"). 

Arb. Stephen of Ryazan became locum tenens, and during that tenure he became the Met. of Moscow (but not Patriarch) and of the Holy Synod in 1721.  When he died the following year, Arb. Feofan of Pskov (thereafter Novgorod) succeeded him as President of the Most Holy Governing Synod, but Moscow remained widowed until Met. Joseph succeeded in 1742.

What of the Hiatus of Patriarchs: was St. Tikhon the successor of Pat. Adrian?  Of Arb. Stephen of Ryazan? Was Arb. Feofan of Novgorod his predecessor, or was Met. Joseph of Moscow?  The official lists did not list Arb. (pseudo-)Pat. Ignatius

When Moscow/Kiev gained her autocephaly, she stretched only as far as the Urals, but expanding Eastward:  St. Innocent was consecrated bishop to evangelize China.  When the Chinese Empire refused him entry he settled in and founded the See of Irkutsk in 1727 on the edge of Russia.  After the mission from Valaam went past Irkutsk into Alaska, the Holy Synod created the auxiliary see of Kodiak for Irkutsk, and recalled Joasaphat to Irkutsk to be ordained for the Alaskan see. The Holy Synod further, because of the remoteness and lack of bishops, fully empowered Bishop Benjamin of Irkutsk by himself to ordain Joasaphat with the fully authority of the Russian Church (the only know instance of this occuring in the Russian Church).  Bishop Joasaphat, however, perished before his return to Kodiak, no successor was ordained, and closed the See in 1811. After having served from Irkutsk to San Francisco, Irkutsk's native son (another) St. Innocent was ordained bishop of Kamachata, Kurile Islands, and the Aleutian Islands in 1840. Consecrating his cathedral in Sitka in 1848, elevated to Archbishop in 1850, his archdiocese was split in 1853 into two vicarates: he headed  that of Yakutsk (Siberia), odaining an auxiliary Bishop Paul, while in the cathedral of Irkutsk Peter was ordained as auxiliary for that of Novarkhangelsk/Sitka (Alaska).  St. Innocent was made a member of the Ruling Holy Synod in 1865, and then translated in 1867 to Metropolitan of Moscow, leading to the question: Is St. Innocent of Alaska/Moscow an American or Russian saint? His popular "Way into the Kingdom of Heaven,"  for example, was originally written in Aleut.  Bishop Peter succeeded him in Yakutsk, and Bshp Paul was translated to Sitka while Alaska was being transferred from Russian to American sovereignty.  Bishop Paul institutionalized the Russian presence in San Francisco into a parish, and, when his successor John was ordained Bishop (i.e. not auxilairy) of the Aleutian Islands and Alaska in 1870, Bshp Paul returned to Russia via New York, where he founded the first Orthodox parish there. (Bishp Paul went on in Russia to almost where he started, assuming the see of Kamachata, Kurile Islands and Blagoveshchensk, i.e. minus the Aleutians). When the U.S. did not keep the guarantees concerning the Russians who stayed, the Russians returned to Russia or joined others in San Francisco, and in 1872  Bshp John of the Aleutians and Alaska moved the see from Sitka to San Francisco, i.e. outside of its present boundaries but inside its former boundaries.  St. Tikhon became its bishop in 1898, and in 1900 its jurisdiction was expanded to "of North America," and translated in 1904 to New York. 

Met. Jonah could claim equality with the EP as the successor of St. Andrew.  But he doesn't, nor should he, although the facts could support the argument:he received his orders through the metropolia, through the PoM, which directly or indirectly, through Constantinople or Scythia, would be an ordaining arm's length from St. Andrew.

My bishop is Mark of Toledo.  Now, he was ordained by St. Peter's successor, Pat. Ignatios, down the Street called Straight from the House of Ananias, first bishop of Damascus (the shrine belongs to the Melkites, I don't know if the Patriarch of Antioch took it with him when he submitted to the Vatican).  But Bishop Mark is not the successor of St. Peter or of St.  Ananias, and Toledo is not a Petrine see.  Nor does he succeed Met. Philip, although Toledo had the Met. as its only bishop before.  He could be the successor of St. Raphael Hawaweeny, the first Orthodox bishop consecrated in the New World, as those loyal to the saint's loyalty to Moscow organized their headquarters at Toledo, although his direct predecessor Met. Shaheen was consecrated to lead the "Toledo Group" in Damascus too.  I'm sure he doesn't want to claim to succeed Aftimious Ofiesh, St. Raphael's immediate successor, who proclaimed an autocephalous Church and was deposed.

So, just like the right of representation in American constitutional history and the episcopacy in the Orthodox Church, the heritage of the various sees is one, but it is apportioned by the Church according to her needs.

Some random thoughts:

The power of the episcopacy is more like the power of representation in the Confederation Congress than in the present Federal One in that in the former, like the episcopacy, there is no seperation of powers, and that the sovereignty of the state delegations (which varied in number according to how many a state wanted to send, but had only one vote as a unit in the Congress) resembles that of the autocephaly of the local Churches, e.g. in the Federal Congress the majority rule, in the Confederation and Ecumenicl Council consensus is what rules.

The creation of the executive branch with the adoption of the present constiution was as much a change as what Rome did with the pope of Rome, except that Congress has not become the rubber stamp that the college of cardinals etc. are.  A system where the British PM, and not the British Monarch, would serve as Head of the Commonwealth would resemble what many want to make the EP into.  Indeed, the history of the Canadian Constituion and the King-Byng-Thing dovetails with that theory perfectly.

To return to the OP:
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1. When, and with whom, did Apostolic successsion start? & Is there a biblical record of it?

Representation began with the English Crown authorizing subjects to colonize the New World: Apostolic Succession began with Christ sending the Apostles out to evangelize the world.  There is a biblical record of it, but just as the colonial charters came after the colonists founded their colonies (e.g. the Mayflower Compact) and codified what they were already doing, so too the record of Apostolic Succession in the Bible is self reflective, not formative.

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2. Are their successors to all the Apostles? If not, why not?

Under the Constitution, New Hampshire had 3 representatives and in the first Congress NH sent three delegates from the Continental Congress and Confederate Congresss, one a Founding Father. The following censuses raised this for a half century until it reached 6, from which it has declined now to 2, due to the fluctuations of population and the census.  As such, one of the orginal three representatives does not have a successor because his seat has been merged by history into another, after having been expanded to 4 in the intervening census for a century.  Yet the representation of NH has remained the same, in that it has a delegation according to the terms it representatives agree to.  So too various lines from the Apostles have merged (e.g. SS. Peter and Paul at Antioch and Rome).

It does not mater: just as the House of Representatives of the 1st Congress of 65 seats with only 59 valid seats was not changed because NC and RI (which had not ratified the Constitution by the time Congress had opened) were not initially represented and one member died and was replaced and another resigned and his seat left vacant to the next Congress, and today's House of the 111th Congress remains the same instition with 435 seats and 439 members (from resignations and replacements during the Congress)  and 5 vacancies today (plus 5 delegats and 1 commissioner) in the Congress. So too the episcopate has remained the same since the 12 Apostles to this day, no matter the number of bishops who bear it.

Btw 2 founding Fathers, William Blount and Jonathan Dayton, were involved in treasonous activities.  So Judas has his parrallels  too.
 
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3. When did succession from Apostle to Apostle (ordaining new Apostles) cease, and Apostle to Bishop (oradaining Bishops only, no more Apostles) begin?

Basically as the Apostles gave way to the bishops: the only real difference it seems between the two is that the Apostles had a person to person encounter with Christ in his earthly ministry.  Hence the restriction of St Peter in the election of St. Matthias.  As St. Paul says, he was untimely born, and was consecrated the Church in Antioch before he set up Churches, which brings up another difference: bishops are based in a see, by geography.  The Apostles seem not to have any such restriction, but were sent to the ends of the universe. It is like the narrow and strict definition of Founding Father: once the Declartion of Independence and the Constitution were signed, there was no way to add to that number.  The Founding Fathers, however, in signing those documents provided thereby for the pepetuation of representation that the FF represented themselves. Otherwise, it would be a very small group: only 8 signed both the Declaration and the Constition, and only two signed both and the Articles. Just as only the generation of the Revolution could take the part of Founding Fathers, so too only the generation of Christ's earthly ministry could serve as Apostles.  There were different groups of Founding Fathers (signers of the Decleration/framers of the Constition (not all who were signers, including Elbridge Gerry who refused to sign, although he signed the Declaration and the Articles.  He went on anyways to election as the first representative of MA's 3rd district, and instituting the malpractice of the constitution's clauses on redistricting by "gerrrymandering," which bears his name. The others who refused also took positions under the new government)), and overlap: Roger Sherman, one of the only two to sign all the Founding Documents (and the Articles of Association), on the one hand linked all the documents, on the other hand he did so with Founding Fathers who served in the Continental and Confederate Congresses-Sherman didn't serve in a Congress until the new Constiution went into effect.  In combination, both sets of Founding Fathers created and put into place Sherman's "Great Compromise" which set up the rules of representation that lasted intact until the 17th Amendment in 1913.  So too among the 12, St. Matthais and others who knew the Lord from His baptism to His Ascension, the 70, and St. Paul, were different, but overlapped . So although St. Paul says he did not confer with flesh and blood and was in one group, he did have flesh and blood of hands placed on him by another group, i.e. whose authority derived from the group of 12, before he founded Churches, completing what was lacking to fulfill the office of Apostle.



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4. How do you explain, and is their some significance to, the overlap between Bishops and Apostles both being present in the NT church itself?


The term Founding Father is narrowly applied to those who signed the Declaration of Independence or the framers of the present Constitution.  For some reason (prejudice and embarrassment) it does not include those who signed the Articles of Confederation. Those who did sign the Articles are included in the broader definition of Founding Father, as our those who served in the Continental Congress,  and others (like Lafayette and Von Steuben) who fought in the War of American Independance/Revolutionary War, etc.  But how broad a definition can there be?  Andrew Jackson was the last American President born a subject of the British Crown and not a U.S. citizen, and was a prisoner of war to the British during the war (catching the small pox that killed his brother and a scar on his forehead from a red coat's sword for insubordination), but he had no determinative part in the formation of the Founding of the Country. Is he a Founding Father?  So too, there is an overlapp between bishops and Apostles as there is overlap over the Founding Fathers in the narrow and the broad sense.  So as in the NT Church, Founding Fathers in the strict and narrow sense served as representatives in Congress along with those not Founding Fathers in the strict and narrow sense (yet still Founding Fathers and Sons of the American Revolution), and did so until the last Founding Father in the strict sense, James Madison, died, approprietly enough during the presidency of Andrew Jackson: Madison's first born-US-citizen successor in the 5th Congressional District of VA, John Floyd, served  1817-1829, and was sworn in on Madison's last day as US President (the last Founding Father in the strict sense to serve as president). The Founding Fathers set up the representative government, and were replaced naturally over time as others were brought in to take their same place.  So too the bishops replacing the Apostles.

When the Founding Father generation was dying out, the generation of those born in the Republic looked back as on them as a class which was coming to a close.  Daniel Webster, a leader of the new generation stated ""We can win no laurels in a war for independence.  Earlier and worthier hands have gathered them all. Nor are there places for us ... [as] the founders of states. Our fathers have filled them. But there remains to us a great duty of defence and preservation."  The same can be said of the bishops.

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5. How does one prove or validate their Apostolic lineage?

Just as each Congress had validated each representative to take his seat (or not, as James C. Allen and Frank Smith, show), such that the validity of the House of Representatives is upheld as an institution, so too the episcopate (throught the approval of the primate of the syonod, the consecration by the three nearest bishops, the letters of enthronement sent to the other primates (which was the real cause of schism with Rome, when the new pope inserted the filioque in his letter, the EP struck the pope from the diptychs), the oath of the candidate to the see to obey the teaching of the Church (Scripture, Creed, Ecumenical Councils, canons, etc.) disciplining of bishops etc. has upheld its authority through the generations through the laying on of hands, and has validated the succession to a see since its creation: it's an ongoing proof.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth