Author Topic: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?  (Read 6673 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« on: June 11, 2013, 08:16:59 AM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


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« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 08:17:39 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 08:24:12 AM »
It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 08:26:51 AM »
Theory 1: Hangups from the World Wars. Anglicans were allies, Lutherans were the enemy. (That didn't help the RC either, in my neck of the woods.)

Theory 2: It's the Anglicans who feel affinity with the Orthodox. After all, John Mason Neale co-founded the Anglican and Eastern Churches Association as early as 1864.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 08:30:07 AM »
I would recommend reading Sir Steven Runcimann's book, The Great Church in Captivity where he documents the contacts and relations of the EP (since they were the ones who made the initial contacts with Western Protestants) with various Protestant confessions, i.e. Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists.  I think you may get a few answers from that.  With the Anglicans, I think that the "affinity" really only pertains to what has happened here in America and, like LBK said, that affinity pretty much subsided by the early 1900s.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 09:02:59 AM »
I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:15:01 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 09:36:14 AM »
Ditto.
I haven't noticed any recent affinity - except on the Anglican side. It's all old history.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 09:57:38 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

While many people around here like to jump on the bash-the-'piskies bandwagon as soon as Anglicanism is mentioned like they get to skip a Toll House for insulting Episcopal clergy (seriously, start a thread about Episcopalians and see how long it takes for someone to say "priestess"), some folks look back at their time in the Episcopal church as a flawed but ultimately fruitful time that helped them come to Orthodoxy. So there's going to be some affinity for the system that, in its own way, helped them come to the truth.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 10:25:36 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

On a different but related note, I won't name names or cities, but I've met a handful of people who identified as Orthodox for years even though they attend and communed in an Episcopal parish, in part because there were no Orthodox churches available within 50 or 60 miles of their homes. When they moved to an area with an Orthodox church, they resumed communing in the OC without any pangs of conscience.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 10:32:47 AM »
On a different but related note, I won't name names or cities, but I've met a handful of people who identified as Orthodox for years even though they attend and communed in an Episcopal parish, in part because there were no Orthodox churches available within 50 or 60 miles of their homes. When they moved to an area with an Orthodox church, they resumed communing in the OC without any pangs of conscience.

My husband's godfather is one. Of course, he's in his 70s so this was quite awhile ago. His priest and Bishop gave the Greek families permission to attend the local Episcopal church, when they were unable to make the long trip to the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »
orthodox Anglicans have an extremely similar ecclesiology and what many consider to be a compatible faith, at least considering those anglicans who ignore the protestant declarations made in the past.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 11:41:25 AM »
I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

What is the state of the Roman Catholic Church in relationship with the ever growing influence of Pentecostalism and Evangelicals in Brazil?

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »
They try to fight it back. As I can see from outside, it seems there are several fronts: charismatic to fight them on their own ground, pop-midiatic which you can see in UHF channels, some with a lot of heavy weight funders behind like Aparecida TV, and more recently some internet traditionalists have been putting up a kind of "cultural war" against the many innacuracies Protestants cultivate about the nature and history of the Roman Church.

There are still traces of the "inculturation gang" which were very close to the Liberation Theology folks. These are the ones who would perform the crazy masses "adapted" to whatever sub-set of culture they happened to be near to. Unfortunately you still see that kind of thing even in major churches like the Aparecida Cathedral. Recently, the CNBB (the National Conference of Bishops of Brazil) issued a statement about reactivating the "Comunidades Eclesiais de Base" (Ecclesial Communities of the Base) which were Liberation Theology cells which promoted the advance of marxist-roman-catholicism and were responsible for the creation of PT (the Labourers Party, now in government for 10 years). This in light of the accumulating scandals that have made the popularity of the current president drop a lot. Basically, top government officials were condemned for corruption during Lula's term. Yet, they have taken office as Congressmen and are trying to issue laws that will limit decisions of the Judiciary. On top of that there are some abortion and gay marriage topics going on but the left is far too hegemonic, so the scenario is nothing like the US in that regard. You have the population who is overtly conservative on those matters and a political elite who has created anti-guns laws a couple of years a democratic referendum said no to them. Anyway, Pe. Marcelo, a singer-priest and one of the top figures of the pop-midiatic group, heavily criticized the CNBB on talk radio and that was a big surprise to everybody.

What seems to me to be the most succesful ones are the pop-midiatic (I don't mean it in a pejorative way) with a "doctrine-light" approach, masses that are very, *very* minimalist but at least not blasphemous as "circus masses" and similar stuff. They have an image of being more "humane", dettached from the pomp and circumstance of the more traditional forms of Roman Catholicism and yet loyal to its spirit and doctrine. Pope Francis comes out of this trend, I suppose. The more traditionalist folk seem to be right behind. Recently, a priest published coments that he thought that open marriages were not a sin against fidelity, and for gay marriage. He was called to take back what he said lest he be excommunicated. To show he is a spoiled child, he "quit" before anything happened, and was duely excommunicated after the deadline expired. The cardinal of São Paulo, the same who inspired the name Francis to the Pope, held a mass in the Catholic University against the protests of the alumni, long taken by leftist agremmiations since the late 50s, and that was a big victory for them as well.

Overall, the Roman Church still seems to be struglling to find a way to revert the trend. That has to do, unfortunately, with getting rid of the radical left that parasites it.


I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

What is the state of the Roman Catholic Church in relationship with the ever growing influence of Pentecostalism and Evangelicals in Brazil?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 12:42:12 PM by Fabio Leite »
There is no such a thing as holly bullies. Not for "holy imperialism", not for the sake of unionist ecumenism.

Offline Keble

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 01:27:48 PM »
I think there are four main reasons. In the late 1800s as a result of the Oxford Movement there got to be a lot of interest in old theology and ritual, and one natural outlet for that was looking at eastern church material (not to mention the fathers). If you look in the Episcopal Hymnal you can see a bunch of new hymns from this period which are translations of patristic texts, for instance. This was enhanced by a certain natural compatibility and by the Anglican rejection of Thomism as a theological framework, which made it possible for the eastern contacts to teach Anglicans without being automatically rejected. The third factor was that the contacts were present in the first place: St. Tikhon's visit to the US, and later the emigre community created by the communists, brought Russian clerics in contact with the Anglicans, who were eager to talk to them in turn. The final factor, of course, is that the Russian church arts, especially music, are very beautiful, and Anglicans by then had become connoisseurs of church beauty. All of this made Russian things very attractive to Anglicans, and for a time the inward flow was quite strong.

If thinking that heresies are demonic is the starting point for your analysis, then I think you aren't going to get very far. Anglicanism has an extremely strong proclivity towards looking to other churches for ideas, and incorporating them without being converted utterly to someone else's system. That's ultimately why Anglo-Orthodox discussions inevitably fail: the Orthodox aren't interested, as a rule, in discussion. They talk, but they don't listen. That said, relationships with other churches are colored by familial connections which the Orthodox don't have. Lutherans, Calvinists and (Ana-)Baptists are sisters, of the same generation: there is some talk, but it is very much between equals/rivals (excepting the Methodists, our own sept). Catholicism is, of course, Mom, with all the dynamics that implies. The implied authority claim always sticks, especially when She's wrong.  ;) Also, in the USA the two churches took very different paths in looking at liturgy which still do not sit well with each other. The Orthodox, on the other hand, came to us without a lot of common history; therefore the political tensions were never there to get in the way.



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« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 05:32:46 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 01:34:40 PM »
...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.  The problem with the pope merely granting a divorce/annullment was that his wife's nephew was the emperor of Spain, who at the time was holding the pope hostage.  The only way to grant the divorce from his sinful marriage and to not have the pope killed was to first break off from the church.  The (still technically Catholic) Archbishop of Canterbury granted the divorce.  What he did was not technically uncanonical in the Roman Church at the time, as kings were given the same rights to appointing bishops as the pope.

King Henry VIII was appointed a "Defender of the Faith" by the pope before all of this happened and he wrote extensively against Martin Luther.

The early Anglican fruits were actually good.  Before the Anglicans split, people would be burned alive in England for having a Bible written in English in their possession.  But King Henry VIII changed all of that and allowed the free printing of the Word of God.  He also got rid of "Peter's Pence" (which often went to fund the armies of England's enemies), he destroyed a lot of the church's property and gave it back to England's citizens who were often forced to give it to the church to begin with, and stopped many other things from the old and oppressive Church. Of course, he still had his whole marrying fourteen different people problem, but at the time people were really misogynist and believed that it was his wife's fault for not producing an heir, many of the divorces were not his decisions.  All of these things lead to the Roman Church cutting off communication with England, but that didn't happen until about the time of Queen Elizabeth.  Eventually after Queen Mary, the King James Bible was printed in 1611 and the rest is history.

Having said all of this, it truly feels like an unfair waste to me.  The Anglican Church was founded, contrary to popular belief, on stopping someone in a high place of power from committing sexual immorality, yet the modern Anglicans were not only one of the first Christian denominations to allow homosexuals to marry, but now they have practicing homosexuals as bishops.

I think the Lutherans (LCMS especially) are probably the "best" protestant denomination, but I probably would not have said that 100 years ago.


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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 01:37:14 PM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others?
As others have said already, we once did, but that affinity no longer exists.

The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.
You do realize that the creation of the Church of England is a lot more nuanced than your simple-minded polemics allow you to believe?

All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.
Come back and rejoin this discussion after you've done a lot more reading on the subject. Right now your polemics appear to be keeping you ignorant.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 12:09:30 AM »
Thanks to those of you who took the time to answer my question without condescension or ridicule. Some very informative responses, so I am grateful. You can't learn if you don't ask; so I'll keep asking questions, even if some people continue to belittle me for my lack of omniscience.

Thanks again.


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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 12:15:39 AM »
My status is not exactly Orthodox... let's call is complex... but my position now is essentially the same as when I was/am/will be Orthodox... and I do have an affinity for Anglicans. Of course  "Anglican" is not a thing in itself, apart from the actual people that constitute the group. Thus I like some Anglicans more than others. I like some theology more than others. I like some practices more than others. And so forth. It's hard to speak of an entire group as though it's all in lock step, especially one that has tens of millions, and especially when such diversity is allowed within the group. Maybe this diversity plays into one reason I like "Anglicans" though: because I can pick and choose which ones I am talking about when I say I like them. And maybe that's why some people can dismiss them so easily: because they can pick and choose to speak mainly of the ones who do things and say things and believe things they are vehemently against. When I think Anglican I think of people like Ebor. I like Ebor, not just as an intelligent person, but as a religious person. Other people maybe think of Bp. Spong when they think of Anglican.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 12:19:23 AM »
here in america episcopalians are , essentially, a upper middle class phenomenon an so is orthodoxy. if you check those income statistics parsed up by religious affiliation, published not too long ago. you see the affinity .
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:25:16 AM by augustin717 »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 12:41:50 AM »
That was signed under your beloved monarchy. At least get your facts straight. Prob because the king had Anglican relatives .
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:42:26 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 12:46:52 AM »
That was signed under your beloved monarchy. At least get your facts straight. Prob because the king had Anglican relatives .

Did so. But the Communists were not opposed to ecumenical pursuits with the CoE. Quite the contrary. Ceausescu himself later paid a state visit to HM Queen Elizabeth.   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:47:02 AM by Romaios »

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 12:48:47 AM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

Its been a while since then.  But read the older BCP (keeping in mind at that time similar dogmatic and moral inclinations). 

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 12:49:49 AM »
So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?

Offline Father H

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 12:50:44 AM »
It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.

right

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 12:51:49 AM »
Theory 1: Hangups from the World Wars. Anglicans were allies, Lutherans were the enemy. (That didn't help the RC either, in my neck of the woods.)

Theory 2: It's the Anglicans who feel affinity with the Orthodox. After all, John Mason Neale co-founded the Anglican and Eastern Churches Association as early as 1864.



Right, but Lutherans never saw 7 sacraments, some Anglicans did. 

Offline Father H

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 12:53:56 AM »
I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

Good point.  It is the reality.  But North America ceased to have such relations with Anglicans "above others" long ago.

Offline Father H

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 12:55:23 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.

True, but many of these seem to have been Episcopalian, then Orthodox, then back to Episcopalian.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 12:59:00 AM »
So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?

I have nothing but contempt for Communism, as befits any Romanian and Eastern European.

The point was that at least Romanian Communists were not disdainful of Anglicanism because of its association with the British monarchy or the upper classes. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:23:07 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2013, 01:24:26 AM »
Well 70 pc of Romanians do not share Yo
Your contempt. They must know something you have no access to.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 01:34:17 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

While many people around here like to jump on the bash-the-'piskies bandwagon as soon as Anglicanism is mentioned like they get to skip a Toll House for insulting Episcopal clergy (seriously, start a thread about Episcopalians and see how long it takes for someone to say "priestess"), some folks look back at their time in the Episcopal church as a flawed but ultimately fruitful time that helped them come to Orthodoxy. So there's going to be some affinity for the system that, in its own way, helped them come to the truth.

Hey! I represent both those remarks!

I value my time in the Episcopal Church for what it taught me about Orthodoxy. But I will drop the feminine English suffix on "priest" at the drop of the hat- more for linguistic purity than caring whether or not it get's someone's panties in a bunch (I will also add the suffix to actors, stewards, and waiters of the female persuasion with no pang of conscience whatsoever- there's nothing 'piskie bashing about that). One can both have an affinity and see the problems inherent in with the old system, such as the many American immigrants who have changed their citizenship, are proud of their heritage, yet also quick to point out the problems in their former governments.
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Offline William

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2013, 10:28:57 AM »
...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean. And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
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Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2013, 10:43:50 AM »
...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean.
Yes I caught that just after my time ran out for the edit.

And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
Please enlighten us with a source for this revelation.
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Offline William

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2013, 10:49:14 AM »
...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean.
Yes I caught that just after my time ran out for the edit.

And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
Please enlighten us with a source for this revelation.

Why would he not know who his brother, the crown prince, had publicly married? ???
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »
It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.

this ^^ sentence hit the nail on the head.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2013, 11:54:50 AM »
On a side note, as a Catholic I'd say that we moved much closer to Anglicans ... while they moved away from Anglicanism toward something completely different.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2013, 11:58:31 AM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

 :( Wow, that's really sad (if it's true of course).

I was recently telling someone (a convert to Catholicism who said he regretted the decision) that I think there's an epidemic of rushed conversions to Catholicism. I wonder if it's the same with Orthodoxy.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies.

Thanks to those of you who took the time to answer my question without condescension or ridicule.

On the bright side, at least it wasn't demonic ridicule.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2013, 12:18:11 PM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

 :( Wow, that's really sad (if it's true of course).

I was recently telling someone (a convert to Catholicism who said he regretted the decision) that I think there's an epidemic of rushed conversions to Catholicism. I wonder if it's the same with Orthodoxy.
I don't know if I can apply that statement to most converts, but I can certainly think of a half-dozen I know in my own life. Anecdotal evidence can be found all over the Internet.

I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2013, 12:29:39 PM »
So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
To whom is this directed?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 12:36:10 PM »
I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.


POM nominee! Excellent!
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Offline Michael David

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
I don't know if I can apply that statement to most converts, but I can certainly think of a half-dozen I know in my own life. Anecdotal evidence can be found all over the Internet.

I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.


Great post!

One of those millennials here. :P (I hate that term too and what it implies and am thankful to not behave as other millennials do.) And a recent convert too!

You are touching on certain points that I think are correct, from my own experience. I come from a Protestant background, and it was basically nothing to go between churches based on how "well" the pastor did, if their friends were there, etc. This was all ages, but I was seeing it more in those my age or younger. However, and this was interesting to me, many churches were yielding to it to "keep the numbers up." They would introduce things such as "modern worship" services with rock bands, have yoga classes, outsource coffee stands for the entrance, have day care (not Sunday school), etc. Very much a "consumer" focus and what the church can do for "me" and work for me.

I longed for and prayed so hard to find truth, and that path took me through an Episcopal church and a Catholic church, but I had many qualms too with them and eventually arrived at an Orthodox Church. Small congregation, but the most faithful I had been around. Yes, I was "shopping around," but more than that, I wanted to find something "right." I wanted my church to give me the tools to make me work on myself and change me, and I think that attitude is different than other millenials who want things done their way. I also wanted to be somewhere where I felt I was doing something for God, or at the very least participating in worship with His presence there. So, I think part of it is attitude and I pray that many adopt the right attitude. But, there are those earnestly looking out there for real Tradition, and we can't eliminate how important that is.

As it relates back to the topic, what made me visit an Episcopal church was that the traditions seemed older, the sacraments meant something, and it felt more traditional than having a rock band play at you. The Catholic church I then visited was actually far less traditional and a lot more like a Methodist service. I then went to another and it was about the same. I never went to a Lutheran church to know anything about that. I just found it interesting that the Episcopal service was more "high" than either of the two Catholic services I went to. I did a lot of reading too, and came across some great authors on both sides (N.T. Wright, Henri Nouwen), but based on the actual experiences I had compared to what I read (and even read online, not just books), I never felt that it really matched the reality. But, it is part of my journey getting to where I am now, and I am at least thankful for having seen what it is like!

Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »
Up until the mid to late 1900s there were points of contact between Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans, with some Orthodox bishops even allowing Orthodox laity to commune in Anglican churches if there were no Eastern Orthodox parishes nearby. However this began to unravel with tEC introducing the innovation of WO. 

When ACNA formed, Metropolitan Jonah addressed them and basically said that the issues of WO and 'Calvinism' needed to be dealt with before any fruitful ecumenical dialog could proceed.  (And if I remember correctly, didn't one of the Russian Orthodox heirarchs have some strong words for Canturbury recently?)

At any rate, for those who have the time, Arthur Middleton has a good book called FATHERS AND ANGLICANS which demonstrates the proximity between the thought of many of the Anglican Divines (such as Lancelot Andrewes) and Orthodoxy, particularly among those theologians/churchmen who stressed the importance of the consensus of the early Church. 
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 05:26:01 PM »
(And if I remember correctly, didn't one of the Russian Orthodox heirarchs have some strong words for Canturbury recently?)

Yes, it was over women bisops. If they do ordain them, Russia was threatening all thoughts of future unity to be done for.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 05:26:39 PM »
So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
To whom is this directed?
Not to you. Peace

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 05:32:02 PM »
Up until the mid to late 1900s there were points of contact between Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans, with some Orthodox bishops even allowing Orthodox laity to commune in Anglican churches if there were no Eastern Orthodox parishes nearby. However this began to unravel with tEC introducing the innovation of WO.  

I've heard it told that way; but I've also heard it differently -- namely, that it stopped even before WO.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 06:00:23 PM »
So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
To whom is this directed?
Not to you. Peace
I knew it wasn't directed at me. ;) The context just didn't make clear whom you were talking to, though it seems a bit clearer now. Quoting other people does go a long way toward identifying the parties in a conversation. ;)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 06:40:13 PM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not.  There has been more than one thread on OC.net as well as good histories of Tudor England and other sources that explain the situation.  I will go find a particular thread from a couple of years ago that covered this.

It was a matter of annulment. This was something that had been done for many other royal and noble families and the crux of the matter was having a male heir.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2013, 06:53:11 PM »
...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean.
Yes I caught that just after my time ran out for the edit.

And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
Please enlighten us with a source for this revelation.


Here is a link to a thread from 2007 in which the real history of Henry Tudor, his older brother Arthur (who would have been king but died young, a common occurrence then) who was married to Catherine of Aragon and the general situation: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13426.0.html

If you have any questions I will be willing to try and answer them.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2013, 07:00:06 PM »
You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

While many people around here like to jump on the bash-the-'piskies bandwagon as soon as Anglicanism is mentioned like they get to skip a Toll House for insulting Episcopal clergy (seriously, start a thread about Episcopalians and see how long it takes for someone to say "priestess"), some folks look back at their time in the Episcopal church as a flawed but ultimately fruitful time that helped them come to Orthodoxy. So there's going to be some affinity for the system that, in its own way, helped them come to the truth.

Thank you for this, Agabus. 

And as to people using the word "priestess" since many occupations are not delineated by sex (doctoress? No) and the term is not used by those who are ordained that I have ever encountered and there can be negative connotations to the term, it might indeed be construed to be an insult under a pretext.   

Your comment on the Toll House gave me a chuckle.  Thank you. :)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2013, 07:04:41 PM »
My status is not exactly Orthodox... let's call is complex... but my position now is essentially the same as when I was/am/will be Orthodox... and I do have an affinity for Anglicans. Of course  "Anglican" is not a thing in itself, apart from the actual people that constitute the group. Thus I like some Anglicans more than others. I like some theology more than others. I like some practices more than others. And so forth. It's hard to speak of an entire group as though it's all in lock step, especially one that has tens of millions, and especially when such diversity is allowed within the group. Maybe this diversity plays into one reason I like "Anglicans" though: because I can pick and choose which ones I am talking about when I say I like them. And maybe that's why some people can dismiss them so easily: because they can pick and choose to speak mainly of the ones who do things and say things and believe things they are vehemently against. When I think Anglican I think of people like Ebor. I like Ebor, not just as an intelligent person, but as a religious person. Other people maybe think of Bp. Spong when they think of Anglican.

Gosh.. Shuffle shuffle 

Thank you. That was nice to read.   :) 

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Offline William

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2013, 08:02:27 PM »
Ebor's glasses are rose-tinted, too.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2013, 08:18:29 PM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not. 

Well, I guess if they're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 1054, it kinda makes sense for them to also make the above statement.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2013, 08:44:09 PM »
Ebor's glasses are rose-tinted, too.

In what way, please?  Would you please explain what you may perceive as historical errors related to the general situation of England, the succession and the Bishop of Rome in the Tudor era?  Or is there some other area in which you think that my "eyesight" is impaired?  I have not addressed anything in the way of "affinity" that I can see.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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Offline William

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2013, 10:06:47 PM »
Ebor's glasses are rose-tinted, too.

In what way, please?  Would you please explain what you may perceive as historical errors related to the general situation of England, the succession and the Bishop of Rome in the Tudor era?  Or is there some other area in which you think that my "eyesight" is impaired?  I have not addressed anything in the way of "affinity" that I can see.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor

Your explanation isn't incorrect but it doesn't really address the moral bankruptness of the whole affair.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2013, 10:36:40 PM »
Ebor's glasses are rose-tinted, too.

In what way, please?  Would you please explain what you may perceive as historical errors related to the general situation of England, the succession and the Bishop of Rome in the Tudor era?  Or is there some other area in which you think that my "eyesight" is impaired?  I have not addressed anything in the way of "affinity" that I can see.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor

Your explanation isn't incorrect but it doesn't really address the moral bankruptness of the whole affair.
Such as...
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 10:37:05 PM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

I was going to respond to this last night, but I thought that anything that I had to say had already been said.

But that's never stopped me before, nor will it in this case. My own personal reason for having been an ardent Anglicanophile (until recently) was that I saw High Church (and conservative) Anglicanism as sort of the closest denomination of Western Christianity closest to us, and a close friend of mine and a visit or two to Washington D.C.'s Saint Paul on K Street really hit that notion of mine home. It seemed like a match made in Heaven, it did; they don't have the idea of One Bishop to Rule Them All, they retained the old Sarum Rite, they believe that the consecrated host was truly the Body and Blood of Christ without trying to prove it logically and stating that is a Sacred Mystery like we say, what wasn't there to love (It didn't help that at the time, I loved reading about the English Civil War and my Britanophilia grew stronger as I tried to get in-touch with my Northern Irish roots because I resented being simply known as "the Greek" and nothing more)? Plus, the book written about the Cathedral of Holy Wisdom in London that the dean of the Cathedral gave me really showed me that traditionally, Anglicanism was Orthodoxy's strongest ally. It wasn't the Church of England sending in Jesuits to convert our folk to Catholicism by coercion or force, nor was it the Church of England that sent in embassadors to try to gain the ear of His All Holiness in order for him to change our theology so that it would be more pleasing in their Church's eyes like the Lutherans and Calvinists tried to do. Hey, they even let us open a church in London and gave us our own college at Oxford (called rather imaginatively, "the Greek College of Oxford"). I also read in a book I found on Google that Protestants zealously tried to convert Greek immigrants without a church in the area to their own sect, whereas the Anglicans of these United States actually played it rather cool and tried no such thing. The Anglican Church truly seemed to be made up of nice people, friendly people.

But then of course, well Anglo-Catholics don't make up the entire Anglican Communion, and Latitudinarianism gave us all the variations of Anglicanism that we see today. The bishops decreed that the faithful without churches in the Great Plains could no longer attend Episcopalian churches as substitutes, and the love between our Churches became unrequited.

Also, I do not think that we can simply chalk up the birth of the Church of England to a divorce. The divorce was simply the casus belli for the King of England to assert his dominance over the Church in England, much like the King of France had done with the phenomenon known as Gallicanism. When the Pope of Rome was afraid to grant him a divorce from Catherine of Aragon because the backlash from Iberia might be too much for the Church (and possibly Western Europe as a whole) to handle, well Henry formed the Church of England as a response. England's journey into Protestantism wasn't a convenient excuse for Henry, as there had been Reformers in England and Scotland alike (I know that there's a site at the University of Saint Andrews where a Reformer was burned at the stake before the foundation of the Church of England, and the Lollards were considered proto-Protestants), so again, Protestantism in England doesn't owe its creation to the divorce between King Henry VIII Tudor and Catherine d'Aragon. Simple nitpick, though, religion always seems to be a complicated issue, and if you can sum up an event and all that means in a sentence, I personally believe that it might not all be true.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 10:37:49 PM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not. 

Well, I guess if they're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 1054, it kinda makes sense for them to also make the above statement.


They? Who are they? Gebre speaks only for himself.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2013, 12:31:25 AM »
Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2013, 12:35:38 AM »
I have more of an affinity for atheism and irreligion than I think I do any other group. Mostly due to the fact that I used to feel the same way they did for quite a while. Maybe it's the same with the Orthodox and Anglicans. I know many of the Orthodox converts here went through some Anglican/Episcopal Liberaldox Larry stage. I guess it's not too surprising that many of them would feel close to the Anglican Church.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2013, 08:43:41 AM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not. 

Well, I guess if they're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 1054, it kinda makes sense for them to also make the above statement.


They? Who are they? Gebre speaks only for himself.

Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.   ;D
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2013, 10:38:15 AM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not. 

Well, I guess if they're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 1054, it kinda makes sense for them to also make the above statement.


They? Who are they? Gebre speaks only for himself.

Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.   ;D
Are you quoting me or Peter J?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2013, 11:00:51 AM »
Peter J, sorry.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2013, 11:40:26 AM »
especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.

Gebre, I am sorry to correct this error, but it was not. 

Well, I guess if they're going to say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 1054, it kinda makes sense for them to also make the above statement.


They? Who are they? Gebre speaks only for himself.

Touche.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2013, 11:43:16 AM »
Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church. 

Hold on a sec, I just need to make a quick phone call ...

Okay, what were you saying about the Jesuits?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »
Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.

Hold on a sec, I just need to make a quick phone call ...

Okay, what were you saying about the Jesuits?

Why do you think the emminent scholar, Jack Chick, is in hiding?  It is because of the illuminati Jesuit plot to stifle the truth about the Whore of Babylon.  ;D

I especially like the part about jesuits sneaking into Bible Schools to subvert them.  Brilliant!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:50:49 AM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2013, 01:38:09 PM »
Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.

Hold on a sec, I just need to make a quick phone call ...

Okay, what were you saying about the Jesuits?

Why do you think the emminent scholar, Jack Chick, is in hiding?  It is because of the illuminati Jesuit plot to stifle the truth about the Whore of Babylon.  ;D

I especially like the part about jesuits sneaking into Bible Schools to subvert them.  Brilliant!
What if Jack Chick is a Jesuit agent provocateur?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2013, 01:46:15 PM »
Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.

Hold on a sec, I just need to make a quick phone call ...

Okay, what were you saying about the Jesuits?

Why do you think the emminent scholar, Jack Chick, is in hiding?  It is because of the illuminati Jesuit plot to stifle the truth about the Whore of Babylon.  ;D

I especially like the part about jesuits sneaking into Bible Schools to subvert them.  Brilliant!
What if Jack Chick is a Jesuit agent provocateur?

The plot thickens!  dun-dun-dun  :laugh:
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »
Nonsense, the RC Church did not start in 1054. I quote the esteemed and much learned scholar, Jack Chick.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. That is why they substituted the corrupt Alexandrian perversions of scripture, instead of using the preserved, prophetic and apostolic Words of God as found in Antioch of Syria, where "the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26). That is why they also added the Alexandrian writings we now call "Apocrypha" to their perverted bibles. That is why they used their Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant Seminaries, Colleges and Bible Schools. Their Jesuits became the "teachers" and planted seeds of doubt in the Christians' minds. These doubt-ridden Christians then taught at other colleges and schools. All the while they planted that same seed of doubt of God's word in their students.

Now we know the TRUTH about the Roman Catholic Church.

Hold on a sec, I just need to make a quick phone call ...

Okay, what were you saying about the Jesuits?

Why do you think the emminent scholar, Jack Chick, is in hiding?  It is because of the illuminati Jesuit plot to stifle the truth about the Whore of Babylon.  ;D

I especially like the part about jesuits sneaking into Bible Schools to subvert them.  Brilliant!
What if Jack Chick is a Jesuit agent provocateur?

The plot thickens!  dun-dun-dun  :laugh:
If you wish to pursue this theory any farther, please do so by starting another thread. Thanks.
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Offline Nicene

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2013, 02:48:32 AM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2013, 02:58:32 AM »
Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.

I'd like to see any actual evidence that it was close to happening.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2013, 03:00:28 AM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2013, 03:06:53 AM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
Thank you.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2013, 08:10:44 AM »
Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.

I'd like to see any actual evidence that it was close to happening.

It never was. Sure, Anglicans and Orthodox had very good relations before WO in the 1970s; but to say that "union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening"? I'd call that classic reductivist thinking.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2013, 10:31:30 AM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
The ACNA is the conservative break-away from the Episcopalian Church here in America. GAFCON is the international conservative Anglican effort to place some distance between the more conservative churches in the communion and the liberal elements of the West and work around Canterbury's waffling.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2013, 11:56:35 AM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
The ACNA is the conservative break-away from the Episcopalian Church here in America. GAFCON is the international conservative Anglican effort to place some distance between the more conservative churches in the communion and the liberal elements of the West and work around Canterbury's waffling.

Yep...^^THIS^^
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2013, 12:25:04 PM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
The ACNA is the conservative break-away from the Episcopalian Church here in America. GAFCON is the international conservative Anglican effort to place some distance between the more conservative churches in the communion and the liberal elements of the West and work around Canterbury's waffling.
They're half-way home to Orthodoxy  :D
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #76 on: June 14, 2013, 12:44:15 PM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
The ACNA is the conservative break-away from the Episcopalian Church here in America. GAFCON is the international conservative Anglican effort to place some distance between the more conservative churches in the communion and the liberal elements of the West and work around Canterbury's waffling.
They're half-way home to Orthodoxy  :D

More like staying the course of the via media. For the ACNA it's pretty much a reset to 1979 Episcopalianism- some jurisdictions (for lack of a better word) ordain women, Low Church and Evangelical theology is running strong, and the actual authority structure is that nebulous Anglican fudge that has reigned in the Communion since the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. 
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2013, 07:04:19 PM »
Ebor's glasses are rose-tinted, too.

In what way, please?  Would you please explain what you may perceive as historical errors related to the general situation of England, the succession and the Bishop of Rome in the Tudor era?  Or is there some other area in which you think that my "eyesight" is impaired?  I have not addressed anything in the way of "affinity" that I can see.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor

Your explanation isn't incorrect but it doesn't really address the moral bankruptness of the whole affair.

It wasn't intended to do so. It was to give information about the historic situation.  From there one may expand to other issues.  But when giving information about real people in history I do my best to stick to the facts first.

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Offline Aaron M

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2013, 09:57:05 PM »
I think we can get along and actually discuss things with conservative anglicans just fine. Out of all protestantism conservative anglicans and Lutherans probably represent the best among them. But liberal anglicanism has stifled any such a thing and has effectively tainted these churches. Perhaps one day there will be a movment of conservative anglicans away from the ever increasing liberality in the anglican church but there seems to be no effort or attempt by conservative anglicans that I can see, in this regard.

See the ACNA and GAFCON.

They being?
The ACNA is the conservative break-away from the Episcopalian Church here in America. GAFCON is the international conservative Anglican effort to place some distance between the more conservative churches in the communion and the liberal elements of the West and work around Canterbury's waffling.
They're half-way home to Orthodoxy  :D

More like staying the course of the via media. For the ACNA it's pretty much a reset to 1979 Episcopalianism- some jurisdictions (for lack of a better word) ordain women, Low Church and Evangelical theology is running strong, and the actual authority structure is that nebulous Anglican fudge that has reigned in the Communion since the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. 

That I would guess, as a rule the Low Church/Evangelical-dominant ACNA would not venerate Mary or the saints, either.  Shouldn't that be a biggie for dialog with the Orthodox?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2013, 10:58:49 PM »
Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.

I'd like to see any actual evidence that it was close to happening.

It never was. Sure, Anglicans and Orthodox had very good relations before WO in the 1970s; but to say that "union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening"? I'd call that classic reductivist thinking.

There was a personal friendship between St. Tikhon and Bishop Grafton, but when Fr. Nathaniel Ingram Irvine was received in the Orthodox Church with ordination (and presumably baptism and chrismation--but the hangup was on not recognizing Anglican orders), the friendship frayed. The dialogue, such as it was, was polite niceties. In the broader context, Pope Leo XIII had recently ruled against Anglican orders and they were looking for recognition. Relations were further frayed when St. Raphael found out that some Episcopalians were spreading the lie that Orthodox had their bishop's okay to commune in their churches.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2013, 04:44:02 AM »
Relations were further frayed when St. Raphael found out that some Episcopalians were spreading the lie that Orthodox had their bishop's okay to commune in their churches.

AFAIK even St. Raphael had thought so before he realised Anglicans do not treat their agreement fair.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2013, 05:57:38 AM »
Relations were further frayed when St. Raphael found out that some Episcopalians were spreading the lie that Orthodox had their bishop's okay to commune in their churches.

That was a lie?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2013, 10:23:10 AM »
Relations were further frayed when St. Raphael found out that some Episcopalians were spreading the lie that Orthodox had their bishop's okay to commune in their churches.

That was a lie?

Sorta kinda maybe.  See here for part of the story...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 10:23:28 AM by Asteriktos »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2013, 11:27:39 AM »
This gets back a little closer to the original question.

I'm still working my way through the television production from 1953 that documents Queen Elizabeth II's coronation. I have reached the point where the service itself is over, and the procession is about to leave Westminster Abbey.

I was struck with the solemnity and dignity of the entire service. It is certainly Anglicanism at its finest. There was much in it that I as an Orthodox Christian could easily relate to. For example, at Communion the prayers we call the Epiclesis were neither heard nor seen by those outside the Abbey, nor was there any broadcast of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh receiving Communion. The intimacy of that moment as a spiritual act was kept that way. ("The doors! The doors!")

We should also note the fact that our Western Rite is able to use the Book of Common Prayer almost untouched indicating that the Anglicans at least at one time must have been doing something right.

Alas, those days are gone.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2013, 10:34:01 PM »
When I was Anglo-Catholic for 4 years I was still reading Eastern Orthodox books and eastern church fathers. And I wasn't the only one. There was a certain level of respect and awe that some Anglo-catholics had of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy.

But yeah, I was into William Law and the non-Juror bishops and they had contact with the christian east for a time. reading that inter-action was fascinating.

Also, the rise of the Oxford movement helped form a bridge as well. For the Oxford movement is what started Anglo-catholicism and they were heavily depended on eastern church fathers. And so I see it as natural for the two groups to talk to each other.


But at the end of the day I think it's just nostalgia of what could be for English speakers. We love shake-spear, the king james Bible....... being raised in an English culture, we just love a number of things English, and Anglicanism was the official and cultural quote on quote English church.

And so grabbing them into the fold is like grabbing the English people and it's culture into the fold.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2013, 10:42:44 PM »
What that one person said on this thread in regards to some converts who pass through Anglicanism to become Orthodox is true for me as well.

I was raised Baptist, with some Pentecostal and Charismatic influences. From there I joined an Anglo-Catholic parish within the Episcopal church (back then TEC,). I stayed there for 4 years before moving on to Orthodoxy.

But one thing you will notice is that I will not say anything negative about my Anglo-Catholic experience. It really helped me in many ways. I am grateful for it.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »
Jnorm,

Your experience is somewhat similar to mine, except I started off Southern Baptist, spent some time as an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, then wound up an Anglican Catholic. However, I still have high regard for the Eastern Orthodox church I encountered on my journey.  :)
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2013, 03:13:15 AM »
This forum needs a thanks button!

Jnorm,

Your experience is somewhat similar to mine, except I started off Southern Baptist, spent some time as an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, then wound up an Anglican Catholic. However, I still have high regard for the Eastern Orthodox church I encountered on my journey.  :)
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2013, 07:19:45 AM »
Relations were further frayed when St. Raphael found out that some Episcopalians were spreading the lie that Orthodox had their bishop's okay to commune in their churches.

That was a lie?

Sorta kinda maybe.  See here for part of the story...

I finally got around to that letter. That's more the way I understood it, i.e. that permission was in fact given for certain circumstances, but that was embellished by some Episcopalians, e.g.

Quote
c) Episcopal clergy said that there was no need of the Orthodox people seeking the ministrations of their own Orthodox priests, for their (the Anglican) ministrations were all that were necessary.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2013, 03:35:56 PM »
At any rate, for those who have the time, Arthur Middleton has a good book called FATHERS AND ANGLICANS which demonstrates the proximity between the thought of many of the Anglican Divines (such as Lancelot Andrewes) and Orthodoxy, particularly among those theologians/churchmen who stressed the importance of the consensus of the early Church.  

IIRC, an answer has been written to this in which the author finds Anglican divines who run contra to the same passages from the Fathers...The point being that Anglicanism is the big tent religion, and while Orthodox thought is an acceptable option within the communion, not all acceptable opinion is Orthodox.

EDIT: My bad -- the book I was thinking of was in response to another, much older work, A Harmony of Anglican Doctrine with the Doctrine of the Catholic and Apostolic Church of the East.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2013, 05:44:16 AM »
Probably because for a period of time, union between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism was really close and on the verge of happening, but then the liberalization occurred and ruined it. I suppose the affinity for Anglicans is probably rooted in the lost hope that maybe the closeness we once had will return.

I'd like to see any actual evidence that it was close to happening.



Ecumenical PAtriarch Meletius had the Holy Synod accept Anglican orders as valid. As far as I know, this decision is still "valid" too.

also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2013, 07:45:55 AM »
also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2013, 02:56:36 PM »
also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »
also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2013, 04:20:08 PM »
but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

How would you define concelebration? 
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2013, 05:17:31 PM »
also, as Metropolitan in exile, he co-celebrated with anglicans.

Really?

oops sorry, he was deposed 12 days after that

but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

Right ... unless perhaps there's such a thing as "concelebrating vespers".
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2013, 07:03:37 PM »
but the Greek Ambassador to the US said

"[Meletius] vested, took part in an Anglican service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their holy table, gave a sermon, and blessed those present"

Still nothing about concelebration.

How would you define concelebration? 

Sharing the chalice. Pretty much.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2013, 08:22:10 PM »
Sharing the chalice. Pretty much.

You mean like common ownership and use of the chalice on some sort of rotating schedule?  :P

I think limiting concelebration to communing is a rather narrow and inaccurate definition, and convenient too.  There's a whole lot of liturgical celebration that liturgical ministers do before you get to the Communion, and you need not "concelebrate" to receive Communion.  But if Communion is where the line is drawn, then almost anything can be justified as long as you don't cross that line.  Your particular definition is not Orthodox by any recognised Orthodox standard. 

In the case Gunnarr brought up, the Greek ambassador claims the bishop vested.  If this is simply a matter of showing up in a mantia and carrying a staff, then I'd lean toward not considering this an example of concelebration.  "Taking part" in an Anglican service can mean a number of things, as can "praying with Anglicans".  Preaching and blessing is not wrong by any reasonable standard. 

On the other hand, a Greek ambassador presumably knows the difference between ecclesiastical "street wear" and liturgical vestments.  Were these vestments?  And what was the intent behind venerating the altar?  I don't know if you can absolutely rule out concelebration in this case, there's not enough information, even though I think it probably wasn't concelebration. 
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »
As it relates back to the topic, what made me visit an Episcopal church was that the traditions seemed older, the sacraments meant something, and it felt more traditional than having a rock band play at you. The Catholic church I then visited was actually far less traditional and a lot more like a Methodist service. I then went to another and it was about the same. ... I just found it interesting that the Episcopal service was more "high" than either of the two Catholic services I went to.

Yep. Ironic.

One theory behind that fact in American Catholicism is from the musicologist Thomas Day. He says that even before Vatican II, American Catholics weren't really high-church because when they were persecuted back in Ireland they couldn't have showy religion.

Episcopalianism is semi-congregational so maybe until recently it was possible to have Episcopal parishes that were more conservative and more 'Catholic' than Catholic ones. Got the benefit of that as a kid.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »
Semi-Presbyterian.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2013, 09:31:53 PM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

Lutherans only accept Baptism, Absolution, and Communion as Sacraments by and large. I don't believe any Protestants except the Anglicans (and not all of them) accept all seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church, which are basically the same Sacraments as in the Orthodox Church (we can fight it out about the anointing of kings, but for the most part, it's those seven).

Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2013, 01:06:00 AM »
To sum up, the affinity was because the Anglicans claimed apostolic succession too, and because of that, and both not being under Rome, some Anglicans had an affinity for the Orthodox and reached out to them. (Looking for a pre-'Reformation' church to grant them legitimacy, since Mother Rome would do no such thing.) There was intercommunion in practice in some places (the Greeks and the Episcopalians). But some Orthodox such as Raphael of Brooklyn 100 years ago got wise that the Anglo-Catholics didn't speak for Anglicanism.

Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.

I dunno. Maybe on paper, but unbelief has been pretty common among them since the 'Enlightenment' (America's founding fathers: nominal Episcopalians who were agnostics). Until recently, conservative in the sense of the Conservative or the Republican Party at prayer. Theologically, not so much.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2013, 05:16:46 AM »
Also, the turn by Anglicanism away from anything that can be called traditional Christianity is a relatively recent move. They were among the most conservative of churches until the 1970s.

I can certainly agree with the first sentence. But like TYF, I don't know about the second ... seems to me that the old-time Anglicans were relatively liberal for their time period. Not that that was all bad, mind you ... certainly nothing wrong with being tolerant of RCs, Protestants, and Orthodox.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2013, 08:39:49 AM »
Of course to both Catholics and Orthodox, the 'Reformation' was a turn away from traditional Christianity. That said, except for ecclesiology (Articles XIX and XXI), sacramentology, and ceremonial, classical Anglicans kept much of it: credal orthodoxy and the ancient Greek and medieval Catholic view of reason as conforming yourself to objective reality (which even the 'Enlightenment' didn't completely get rid of, so civilization still flourished), not doing whatever I want; anything that tries to stop me is just superstition (feminism and homosexualism for example).

And, again, to 19th-century Orthodox meeting the West, the break wasn't obvious since their first religious contact with Anglicans was from Anglo-Catholics approaching them, sincerely telling them what they wanted to hear.

The late Catholic columnist Joe Sobran wrote that he was thankful for having grown up in a Protestant country run by tolerant old-school liberal mainliners. Religious liberty and the free market, plus, actually, taking a break from immigration in the '20s in order for the country to catch its breath, created a great home for Catholics and Orthodox here by the '50s. (Halting immigration raised the opportunities and living standard for the Catholics and Orthodox already here.) A prosperity not possible back in Europe.

Besides the basics of the faith and the old Mass, the SSPX (the late, great Archbishop Lefebvre's group) and I have little in common, a reason why I can live in the official church as reformed by Pope Benedict. (But I acknowledge the good the SSPX does.) The European monarchists and fascists (not a dirty word, only a description) who run the SSPX are understandably suspicious of the American experiment's origin with heretics, as Rome was for many years. Yes, be careful, but economic and religious liberty are good.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2013, 09:48:42 AM »
And high-Episcopal parishes such as St Paul's, K Street in DC aren't doing Sarum. Sarum was a flowery version of the same Roman Rite as the Tridentine Mass. The Book of Common Prayer, old and new, is a new creation, not a translation of Sarum. American Anglo-Catholics historically use the BCP but with ceremonial based on pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Catholic practice, varying by place and now of course mixed with modern Catholic practice too. (Again, modern Episcopalians, unlike Catholic liberals, love our stuff.)
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2013, 10:55:30 PM »
And high-Episcopal parishes such as St Paul's, K Street in DC aren't doing Sarum. Sarum was a flowery version of the same Roman Rite as the Tridentine Mass. The Book of Common Prayer, old and new, is a new creation, not a translation of Sarum. American Anglo-Catholics historically use the BCP but with ceremonial based on pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Catholic practice, varying by place and now of course mixed with modern Catholic practice too. (Again, modern Episcopalians, unlike Catholic liberals, love our stuff.)

Have the priests at Saint Paul's on K Street ever performed the Sarum Rite? I've been there a few times, and during Christmastide, I could have sworn that my guide for the evening mentioned something about the Sarum Rite. At the very least, I know that the priests were wearing "Sarum blue" vestments, but I think there was more to that particular Divine Liturgy than just vestmental-colours.

May I ask, are you part of the Anglican Ordinariate? I've really wanted to visit an Anglican Ordinariate church; I believe the closest one to D.C. is in Silver Spring. In fact I vaguely remember it being near the ACROD church of the area, but I could be wrong.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2013, 12:49:48 AM »
There have been both Anglican and Catholic re-enactments of Sarum; I don't know if K Street has ever done one. Sarum revivals were always more popular in England, among high-church liberal Anglicans there, than among Episcopalians. Sarum blue during Advent is fairly popular among Anglicans now.

I'm not in the American ordinariate but would like to see Mt. Calvary, Baltimore, now that it's Catholic: the pre-Vatican II ceremonial but in English that I like to see. I think the parish closest to DC is another ex-Episcopal one that kept its building, St Luke's, Bladensburg, MD.

The ordinariate's really for married ex-Anglican priests who want to be Catholic priests and for laity who miss the Prayer Book. I'm happy having the Tridentine Mass. (Here one group of converts from what was an extreme Anglo-Catholic parish, which did the Tridentine Mass in English, have done the same but are at a different parish from mine.)

I like the Prayer Book but I don't miss it so much that I need it every week.

The Prayer Book works with pre-Vatican II Catholic ceremonial - the American Anglo-Catholic style - in spite of Cranmer's Protestantism because Cranmer kept enough of the Catholic Church's general worldview for it to work.

Recognition of Anglican orders by some Orthodox patriarchates has always been with the understanding that IF the whole Anglican Communion gave up Protestantism and entered Orthodoxy, those patriarchates would receive them in their orders. Moot as it will never happen. So the Orthodox, including those patriarchates, treat Anglican orders just like the Catholic Church does: void. Such clergy are reordained.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2013, 07:22:14 AM »
^^ Quite frankly, I think throwing the n-word around ("never") with regard to reunion is as silly those who speak as though reunion will happen any time now.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2013, 08:32:10 AM »
Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American. But thoroughly Protestant. Back to square one: the 'Reformation' revisited, trying to convince classical Protestants to come back to the church. Might there be an Oxford Movement, Part II among them, in which, remaining non-papal, they turn east, like the American convert boomlet among evangelicals 20 years ago? Or become Catholic like in the first one? Maybe. The whole denomination switching? Probably not.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2013, 09:09:59 AM »
Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2013, 08:38:18 AM »
Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2013, 02:34:53 AM »
Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American.

More likely: the GAFCON group gets sufficiently mad at Cantuar (with egging on from the American neocon schisms) split the communion. Of course it's very important to those who have left for the Anglican political liberals to whither away, but once the homosexuality fight is done with in the American church it is also possible that the theological liberals get chased out, since there will be no longer any need of them.

A lot of that seems to fit what I wrote. Sure, there might be a big split but again the white liberal high churchmen are dying out: the Episcopalians and the dominant faction of the Church of England. I can imagine Parliament disestablishing the C of E, after which, like the American 'neocons', the English Evangelicals will go under the Africans. You'll have an African denomination with a few British and American members, not a British or American one. Mainstream Western society, while still culturally Christian (political correctness is a Christian heresy on steroids), no longer needs liberal churches, which is why the mainline, including the liberal high Anglicans I mentioned, is disappearing.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2013, 07:00:44 PM »
This is the most pretentious thread of all time. Almost as annoying as the history club kids talking about what countries are gonna be superpowers next century.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2015, 08:49:26 PM »
Can someone please explain to me the English masses' appreciation of Protestantism in the decades after Henry VIII?

In about 1553, Henry VIII's Protestant successor, King Edward VI, named his Protestant relative Jane Grey queen over his illegitimate Catholic relative Mary, who was nonetheless named in Henry VIII's will to have preference as Queen. Edward VI died and the governing council declared Jane Queen.

Meanwhile, Mary raised an army in the east England. She outgunned the Protestant commander, Dudley, who was Jane's father in law and who had played the leading role in the London government at that point. While he was en route to battle, the governing council, who I believe was headed by Catholics, switched sides and announced Mary was Queen and Jane was an imposter. Personally, I find that ridiculous, because King Edward VI was the one who nominated Jane as his successor, so she was not an imposter. And on top of that, the governing ("privy") council was the one who had itself declared Jane the Queen before it now called her an imposter.

Dudley was overpowered at least mentally by this change of affairs, unready to fight Mary and go against the council. So he accepted the council's decision, recognized Mary, and even accepted Catholicism after opposing it previously, but they still executed him for treason. Jane for her part didn't accept Catholicism and was beheaded.

What is especially confusing for me in this state of affairs is that Wikipedia says that Dudley and the change to Protestantism were both extremely unpopular and that this explains much of his defeat. In fact, the very powerful King Henry VIII had changed England to Protestantism, and today perhaps 2/3 or more of the English are Protestant. So was Protestantism simply an unpopular, limited, minority movement among the nobility and some social sectors in 16th century England?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2015, 12:32:46 PM »
This is the most pretentious thread of all time. Almost as annoying as the history club kids talking about what countries are gonna be superpowers next century.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2015, 12:54:08 PM »
This is the most pretentious thread of all time. Almost as annoying as the history club kids talking about what countries are gonna be superpowers next century.
I miss William. He was a funny little fellow.
A toast to his memory.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2015, 03:16:43 PM »
Can someone please explain to me the English masses' appreciation of Protestantism in the decades after Henry VIII?

In about 1553, Henry VIII's Protestant successor, King Edward VI, named his Protestant relative Jane Grey queen over his illegitimate Catholic relative Mary, who was nonetheless named in Henry VIII's will to have preference as Queen. Edward VI died and the governing council declared Jane Queen.

Meanwhile, Mary raised an army in the east England. She outgunned the Protestant commander, Dudley, who was Jane's father in law and who had played the leading role in the London government at that point. While he was en route to battle, the governing council, who I believe was headed by Catholics, switched sides and announced Mary was Queen and Jane was an imposter. Personally, I find that ridiculous, because King Edward VI was the one who nominated Jane as his successor, so she was not an imposter. And on top of that, the governing ("privy") council was the one who had itself declared Jane the Queen before it now called her an imposter.

Dudley was overpowered at least mentally by this change of affairs, unready to fight Mary and go against the council. So he accepted the council's decision, recognized Mary, and even accepted Catholicism after opposing it previously, but they still executed him for treason. Jane for her part didn't accept Catholicism and was beheaded.

What is especially confusing for me in this state of affairs is that Wikipedia says that Dudley and the change to Protestantism were both extremely unpopular and that this explains much of his defeat. In fact, the very powerful King Henry VIII had changed England to Protestantism, and today perhaps 2/3 or more of the English are Protestant. So was Protestantism simply an unpopular, limited, minority movement among the nobility and some social sectors in 16th century England?


Not my specialist subject, but some observations:

Henry VIII didn't exactly change England to Protestantism. He broke with Rome, and made himself head of the church, but the church retained much of its Catholic heritage. It was nothing at all like modern day Protestantism.

In those days, the masses would not have known much about what was going on, and even if they did would not have understood the theological differences. They would have known though that picking the wrong side could lead to a death sentence.

Catholicism was seen as a foreign religion, and nationalistic fervour is a very easy thing to use to rally support. Lutheranism's flourishing in Germany is a similar example. The Catholicism of that day was also very corrupt, e.g. the abusive practices of indulgences.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2015, 05:15:41 PM »
Likely scenario: the white liberal high churchmen die off so the Anglican Communion becomes an 'empire strikes back' conservative African denomination, no longer British or American. But thoroughly Protestant. Back to square one: the 'Reformation' revisited, trying to convince classical Protestants to come back to the church. Might there be an Oxford Movement, Part II among them, in which, remaining non-papal, they turn east, like the American convert boomlet among evangelicals 20 years ago? Or become Catholic like in the first one? Maybe. The whole denomination switching? Probably not.

Let's hope. Evangelical, Orthodox or Roman Catholic would be better than the current paganism in many liberal high church Anglican parishes.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2015, 05:41:03 PM »
Theologically, conservative high church Anglicans are often very close to Orthodox. However, there just aren't that many left.

Here is the most important recent address by Metr Hilarion to Anglicans. https://mospat.ru/en/2010/09/10/news25819/

Here is the money quote:
Quote
Regrettably, it has to be admitted that the Orthodox Church and many in the Anglican Church have today found themselves on the opposite sides of the abyss that divides traditional Christians from Christians of liberal trend. Certainly, inside the Anglican Community there remain many “traditionalists”, especially in the South and the East, but the liberal trend is also quite noticeable, especially in the West and in the North. Protests against liberalism continue to be heard among Anglicans, as at the 2nd All African Bishops’ Conference held in late August. The Conference’s final document stated in particular, ‘We affirm the Biblical standard of the family as having marriage between a man and a woman as its foundation. One of the purposes of marriage is procreation of children some of whom grow to become the leaders of tomorrow’.

Here is another quote with characteristic clarity:We are also extremely concerned and disappointed by other processes that are manifesting themselves in churches of the Anglican Communion. Some Protestant and Anglican churches have repudiated basic Christian moral values by giving a public blessing to same-sex unions and ordaining homosexuals as priests and bishops. Many Protestant and Anglican communities refuse to preach Christian moral values in secular society and prefer to adjust to worldly standards.

Praise God for such godly leaders in the Orthodox Church!

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2015, 12:25:39 AM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2015, 12:11:28 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world. We do not allow women or homosexuals to become clergy. The biggest points we disagree with the Eastern Orthodox are the celibacy of bishops, filioque, and substitutionary atonement. There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that we may seek to "engage in discussions" with the Orthodox Church if things get any worse in Anglicanism.

My priest is one of the most Godly men I have ever met... more so than many Orthodox priests I have come into contact with. He's the only pastor or priest I have seen cry during the Eucharist because he was so moved. The Church welcomed me with opened arms (something I did not find in my local Greek Ethnic Club... excuse me I mean Greek Orthodox Church  :P). There is no doubt that the true religion is still being practiced in the Anglican Province of America.

Lots of people in my denomination would be Orthodox if it wasn't for the fact that many Orthodox (besides ROCOR and Antiochan) seem entirely unwilling to provide any type of Western Rite. In fact, many also say "Byzantine Rite or get out," which is something I find reprehensible. Greeks, Russians, Antiochans, etc. all have their particular cultural influences in their liturgies... why can't the West have the same? I commend the Antiochan church for attempting to grow their Western Rite churches so that Traditional Anglicans can return to a healthy church body.

Easterners and Westerners think differently when it comes to liturgy. As my priest puts it, Western liturgy tends to be linear. We may say long 15 minute prayers, but we only do it once per service. The East, on the other hand, likes to have a kind of cyclic journey in their liturgy, where each individual prayer might not be as long, but repetition is preferred over length.

Personally, I have no ancestral ties to Eastern Rite at all. It feels very unnatural for me to be in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and much more comfortable for me to observe Western Rite. Sure, I like Byzantine music... but it just doesn't have the same moving effect on me that Western plainchant does, or even a classic Anglican hymn.


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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2015, 02:14:27 PM »
I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2015, 03:49:14 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world. We do not allow women or homosexuals to become clergy. The biggest points we disagree with the Eastern Orthodox are the celibacy of bishops, filioque, and substitutionary atonement. There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that we may seek to "engage in discussions" with the Orthodox Church if things get any worse in Anglicanism.

My priest is one of the most Godly men I have ever met... more so than many Orthodox priests I have come into contact with. He's the only pastor or priest I have seen cry during the Eucharist because he was so moved. The Church welcomed me with opened arms (something I did not find in my local Greek Ethnic Club... excuse me I mean Greek Orthodox Church  :P). There is no doubt that the true religion is still being practiced in the Anglican Province of America.

Lots of people in my denomination would be Orthodox if it wasn't for the fact that many Orthodox (besides ROCOR and Antiochan) seem entirely unwilling to provide any type of Western Rite. In fact, many also say "Byzantine Rite or get out," which is something I find reprehensible. Greeks, Russians, Antiochans, etc. all have their particular cultural influences in their liturgies... why can't the West have the same? I commend the Antiochan church for attempting to grow their Western Rite churches so that Traditional Anglicans can return to a healthy church body.

Easterners and Westerners think differently when it comes to liturgy. As my priest puts it, Western liturgy tends to be linear. We may say long 15 minute prayers, but we only do it once per service. The East, on the other hand, likes to have a kind of cyclic journey in their liturgy, where each individual prayer might not be as long, but repetition is preferred over length.

Personally, I have no ancestral ties to Eastern Rite at all. It feels very unnatural for me to be in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and much more comfortable for me to observe Western Rite. Sure, I like Byzantine music... but it just doesn't have the same moving effect on me that Western plainchant does, or even a classic Anglican hymn.

Forgive me, but there are so many mistaken assumptions and/or prejudices in the above that I don't even know where to begin. Especially during Lent.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2015, 03:53:09 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world. We do not allow women or homosexuals to become clergy. The biggest points we disagree with the Eastern Orthodox are the celibacy of bishops, filioque, and substitutionary atonement. There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that we may seek to "engage in discussions" with the Orthodox Church if things get any worse in Anglicanism.

My priest is one of the most Godly men I have ever met... more so than many Orthodox priests I have come into contact with. He's the only pastor or priest I have seen cry during the Eucharist because he was so moved. The Church welcomed me with opened arms (something I did not find in my local Greek Ethnic Club... excuse me I mean Greek Orthodox Church  :P). There is no doubt that the true religion is still being practiced in the Anglican Province of America.

Lots of people in my denomination would be Orthodox if it wasn't for the fact that many Orthodox (besides ROCOR and Antiochan) seem entirely unwilling to provide any type of Western Rite. In fact, many also say "Byzantine Rite or get out," which is something I find reprehensible. Greeks, Russians, Antiochans, etc. all have their particular cultural influences in their liturgies... why can't the West have the same? I commend the Antiochan church for attempting to grow their Western Rite churches so that Traditional Anglicans can return to a healthy church body.

Easterners and Westerners think differently when it comes to liturgy. As my priest puts it, Western liturgy tends to be linear. We may say long 15 minute prayers, but we only do it once per service. The East, on the other hand, likes to have a kind of cyclic journey in their liturgy, where each individual prayer might not be as long, but repetition is preferred over length.

Personally, I have no ancestral ties to Eastern Rite at all. It feels very unnatural for me to be in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and much more comfortable for me to observe Western Rite. Sure, I like Byzantine music... but it just doesn't have the same moving effect on me that Western plainchant does, or even a classic Anglican hymn.

Forgive me, but there are so many mistaken assumptions and/or prejudices in the above that I don't even know where to begin. Especially during Lent.

Enlighten me, please. I'm still new here, so I'm willing to learn.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 04:06:45 PM by NoahB »

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2015, 05:12:09 PM »
Because they rejected papacy, and yet kept some form of Liturgical life.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2015, 06:40:39 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world.......
There are a lot of churches that call themselves Anglican. Are you aware that the Anglican Province of America is not actually part of the Anglican Communion?

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2015, 07:07:56 PM »
Horrible histories-the wives of Henry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSlTUQRrVqQ



Title of video prepended to post to enforce compliance with forum rules against naked links.  -PtA
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:21:35 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2015, 07:54:53 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world. We do not allow women or homosexuals to become clergy. The biggest points we disagree with the Eastern Orthodox are the celibacy of bishops, filioque, and substitutionary atonement. There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that we may seek to "engage in discussions" with the Orthodox Church if things get any worse in Anglicanism.

My priest is one of the most Godly men I have ever met... more so than many Orthodox priests I have come into contact with. He's the only pastor or priest I have seen cry during the Eucharist because he was so moved. The Church welcomed me with opened arms (something I did not find in my local Greek Ethnic Club... excuse me I mean Greek Orthodox Church  :P). There is no doubt that the true religion is still being practiced in the Anglican Province of America.

Lots of people in my denomination would be Orthodox if it wasn't for the fact that many Orthodox (besides ROCOR and Antiochan) seem entirely unwilling to provide any type of Western Rite. In fact, many also say "Byzantine Rite or get out," which is something I find reprehensible. Greeks, Russians, Antiochans, etc. all have their particular cultural influences in their liturgies... why can't the West have the same? I commend the Antiochan church for attempting to grow their Western Rite churches so that Traditional Anglicans can return to a healthy church body.

Easterners and Westerners think differently when it comes to liturgy. As my priest puts it, Western liturgy tends to be linear. We may say long 15 minute prayers, but we only do it once per service. The East, on the other hand, likes to have a kind of cyclic journey in their liturgy, where each individual prayer might not be as long, but repetition is preferred over length.

Personally, I have no ancestral ties to Eastern Rite at all. It feels very unnatural for me to be in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and much more comfortable for me to observe Western Rite. Sure, I like Byzantine music... but it just doesn't have the same moving effect on me that Western plainchant does, or even a classic Anglican hymn.

The problem is that there's hasn't been a living, breathing "Western Orthodox" liturgy since the 11th Century. It kind of violates the spirit of Orthodox theology to go digging through old texts and trying to artificially revive the past.

The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.
 
Believe me, though I find the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom to be very moving, I'm far from an anti-Western nut. I'd love to mix and match and combine Orthodoxy with Gregorian Chant and the Sarum Rite and Lutheran chorales and contemplative prayer and Holy Family imagery and so on and so forth but the result would be a heterodox chimera that doesn't do justice to the theology behind any of the them.
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I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2015, 08:37:15 PM »
The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.

You're positive this is the Orthodox way?
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Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2015, 09:11:21 PM »
I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world.......
There are a lot of churches that call themselves Anglican. Are you aware that the Anglican Province of America is not actually part of the Anglican Communion?

I am... though I would say it is those under the Archbishop of Canterbury who have apostatized. Theologically, we (and similar denominations, such as the Reformed Episcopal Church) are the "true" Anglican church.

I am going through Confirmation/Chrismation classes in the Anglican Church right now (Anglican Province of America).

My denomination, the Anglican Province of America, is the most conservative and "Orthodox" out of all Anglican denominations in the world. We do not allow women or homosexuals to become clergy. The biggest points we disagree with the Eastern Orthodox are the celibacy of bishops, filioque, and substitutionary atonement. There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of from the top of my head. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that we may seek to "engage in discussions" with the Orthodox Church if things get any worse in Anglicanism.

My priest is one of the most Godly men I have ever met... more so than many Orthodox priests I have come into contact with. He's the only pastor or priest I have seen cry during the Eucharist because he was so moved. The Church welcomed me with opened arms (something I did not find in my local Greek Ethnic Club... excuse me I mean Greek Orthodox Church  :P). There is no doubt that the true religion is still being practiced in the Anglican Province of America.

Lots of people in my denomination would be Orthodox if it wasn't for the fact that many Orthodox (besides ROCOR and Antiochan) seem entirely unwilling to provide any type of Western Rite. In fact, many also say "Byzantine Rite or get out," which is something I find reprehensible. Greeks, Russians, Antiochans, etc. all have their particular cultural influences in their liturgies... why can't the West have the same? I commend the Antiochan church for attempting to grow their Western Rite churches so that Traditional Anglicans can return to a healthy church body.

Easterners and Westerners think differently when it comes to liturgy. As my priest puts it, Western liturgy tends to be linear. We may say long 15 minute prayers, but we only do it once per service. The East, on the other hand, likes to have a kind of cyclic journey in their liturgy, where each individual prayer might not be as long, but repetition is preferred over length.

Personally, I have no ancestral ties to Eastern Rite at all. It feels very unnatural for me to be in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and much more comfortable for me to observe Western Rite. Sure, I like Byzantine music... but it just doesn't have the same moving effect on me that Western plainchant does, or even a classic Anglican hymn.

The problem is that there's hasn't been a living, breathing "Western Orthodox" liturgy since the 11th Century. It kind of violates the spirit of Orthodox theology to go digging through old texts and trying to artificially revive the past.

The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.
 
Believe me, though I find the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom to be very moving, I'm far from an anti-Western nut. I'd love to mix and match and combine Orthodoxy with Gregorian Chant and the Sarum Rite and Lutheran chorales and contemplative prayer and Holy Family imagery and so on and so forth but the result would be a heterodox chimera that doesn't do justice to the theology behind any of the them.

I'm not a liturgist (yet, anyway) and can't hold my own in a debate about this. I will say, however, St. Tikhon certainly saw Western Rite as a wonderful thing. Western rites are not dead by any means. The Holy Spirit has made sure of that.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2015, 10:34:27 PM »
The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.

You're positive this is the Orthodox way?

Might be. I have heard some Orthodox say as much. St. Tikhon was not infallible, of course.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 10:34:43 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2015, 10:36:26 PM »

I'm not a liturgist (yet, anyway) and can't hold my own in a debate about this. I will say, however, St. Tikhon certainly saw Western Rite as a wonderful thing. Western rites are not dead by any means. The Holy Spirit has made sure of that.

They've been dead in heresy for 900 years.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2015, 10:48:56 PM »
The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.

You're positive this is the Orthodox way?

Might be. I have heard some Orthodox say as much. St. Tikhon was not infallible, of course.

So you're saying it was St. Tikhon who said:

Quote
The only real cure is to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2015, 10:52:59 PM »
No, sorry. I meant that I think St. Tikhon was wrong to support the Western Rite. I could be mistaken of course.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 10:53:23 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2015, 10:59:22 PM »
No, sorry. I meant that I think St. Tikhon was wrong to support the Western Rite. I could be mistaken of course.

Oh, so it's him you had in mind as "violat[ing] the spirit of Orthodoxy," which, you do still think, is comprised in the statement that "the only real cure" to Western history would be "to liberate the Orthodox Churches of the West from the control of the older churches and let things take their course for a couple of hundred years."
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2015, 11:12:09 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2015, 10:41:32 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2015, 11:10:40 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:14:37 AM by Hawkeye »
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2015, 11:19:51 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:21:55 AM by NoahB »

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2015, 11:22:22 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2015, 11:25:02 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 11:25:38 AM by NoahB »

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2015, 11:30:16 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?

Why would you? And St. John Goldenmouth was Byzantine.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2015, 11:36:30 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

Byzantine chant is far from a Greek cultural expression, as tho it's the sound of lads and lasses in the Hellan hills. ::) It was the result of holy science amid the world-Christian-culture of Constantinople. However, if you are going to characterize it as that, then you'd be forced to say the "English and Germans" have already their own "cultural expression in worship" -- the Gregorian chant.

So if we were to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom except with Gregorian Chant instead of Byzantine or Russian music, would that be acceptable in the eyes of any GOAA church? What if we substituted Western vestments for Greek ones?

Why would you? And St. John Goldenmouth was Byzantine.

Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2015, 11:38:52 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2015, 11:43:53 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.

Right.

Just out of curiosity... have you ever been to a Divine Liturgy where they used Rachmaninoff's or Tchaikovsky's arrangement? Or is it unheard of to do such a thing.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2015, 11:44:16 AM »
Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.

I don't know -- when I go to an Orthodox church and here Orthodox music I feel very "right." I would feel much less "right" if any part of ritual or teaching were changed to seem as tho I were going to some other church. So all I'm saying is now you know at least one other Western Christian without the feelings you attribute to us all.

(Besides, where were you previously attending that had music by Gregory and not Marty?)

And again, Byzantine chant was not directly linked with "Greek drops of blood." It was a world music from a cosmopolitan center with Roman roots. Granted, in the modern world and in America there is a close connection. But why that should repel you, I don't understand.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2015, 11:45:23 AM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

The Greeks and Russians received rites and all from the Church and adapted them accordingly, developing their current cultural expressions along the way. With the Western Rite however, that process must occur the other way around, where it is the Church which receives and adapts to pre-existing cultural expressions.

How would you feel if we started forcing you to use the Tridentine Mass or Sarum Rite? So long as the theology is correct there should be absolutely no problem.

You're an Old Believer. You should know how important cultural expression is.

You're right. I do know how important cultural expressions are and when, God willing, I am received into the Orthodox Church, I'll likely have to forgo very few. That is however because, for the most part, mine are already fundamentally Orthodox. I would find it absurd however if suddenly the Anglican Church were to adopt them and have an Old Rite analogue to the Western Rite.

Right.

Just out of curiosity... have you ever been to a Divine Liturgy where they used Rachmaninoff's or Tchaikovsky's arrangement? Or is it unheard of to do such a thing.

I've never been to a Divine Liturgy, period.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2015, 11:48:25 AM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2015, 11:51:44 AM »
Because the congregation is made up of a bunch of ex-Anglicans and ex-Catholics who don't have a Greek drop of blood in their veins. Their ancestors have been Westerners for as long as they can remember. Byzantine music was never used by their ancestors (on a large scale, anyway) and it feels very foreign. Especially to people like me. I'm a Polack mixed with some WASP and Irish. Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.

I don't know -- when I go to an Orthodox church and here Orthodox music I feel very "right." I would feel much less "right" if any part of ritual or teaching were changed to seem as tho I were going to some other church. So all I'm saying is now you know at least one other Western Christian without the feelings you attribute to us all.

(Besides, where were you previously attending that had music by Gregory and not Marty?)

And again, Byzantine chant was not directly linked with "Greek drops of blood." It was a world music from a cosmopolitan center with Roman roots. Granted, in the modern world and in America there is a close connection. But why that should repel you, I don't understand.

I didn't mean to speak for you, I apologize. However, in my own experience this was the case.

That's your personal preference, though. If you like Byzantine music, then by all means, go to a church where they use it. As for me, though, I feel like a goose in a crowd of ducks. It's also worth mentioning that I had the misfortune of attending an "ethnic club" church that was more focused around being a socializing point for Greek people than actual Orthodoxy. I got a cold shoulder when they found out I wasn't Greek. That might contribute a bit to my feelings.

If plainchant was being used before the Great Schism I don't see what the problem would be. Heck, even if it was used afterwards... it's not like I'm proposing a Heavy Metal Liturgy.

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2015, 11:55:08 AM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?

If you're talking to me, I'm not Orthodox. I'm an Anglo-Catholic (Classical Anglican). However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2015, 11:55:39 AM »
Byzantine music is foreign to me. It's not who I am. I don't feel the same way listening to Byzantine music than I do when I listen to Plainchant. Don't get me wrong, I like Byzantine music, it's just doesn't feel right for me and every other Western Liturgical Christian I know. When we sing or hear plainchant, we know that we are participating in something that our ancestors have done for 2000 years. I thought Orthodox people out of all should understand how I feel.
I have some sympathy for you there. Anglican music, whether hymns or chant, is familiar to me, whereas a lot of Byzantine music sounds strange to my ear, and just doesn't resonate. If it's of interest, I've found that Russian Orthodox chant (e.g. from the Valaam monastery) sounds a lot more familiar to my western ear than Greek chant.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2015, 12:00:36 PM »
I think a cogent part of all this could be however one answers the question, Why did you become Orthodox?

If you're talking to me, I'm not Orthodox. I'm an Anglo-Catholic (Classical Anglican). However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Well then. See, it was a pertinent question.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2015, 01:44:47 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2015, 01:59:57 PM »
I have some sympathy for you there. Anglican music, whether hymns or chant, is familiar to me, whereas a lot of Byzantine music sounds strange to my ear, and just doesn't resonate. If it's of interest, I've found that Russian Orthodox chant (e.g. from the Valaam monastery) sounds a lot more familiar to my western ear than Greek chant.

That's because it probably is Western.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2015, 02:01:25 PM »
I have a question for some of you folks in the latter part of this thread: What do you think of the Three Hierarchs?
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2015, 02:05:13 PM »
A trio of ethnics from Asia Minor, yes? Obsolete at that. The "Western churches" need to be cut free of them for "a couple of hundred years" and "let things take their course" organically.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline NoahB

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2015, 02:22:31 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.

Anglicanism as it exists under the See of Canterbury is apostate. They ordain homosexuals and women as clergy. One bishop wrote a book denying the virgin birth and saying that Jesus was the result of the Blessed Virgin Mary being raped by a Roman soldier. He also said it would be fine if she had an abortion. Those are the Apostates who now exist under the See of Canterbury.

HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

I've studied Orthodoxy seriously for about a year now, and Anglicanism even before that. There are only a few differences. The first is filioque, which both Westerners and Easterners can agree is more a semantical issue than anything else, since we both believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son. The wording is quite deceptive in the filioque. Secondly, our view on tradition is different. We believe that Scripture is the word of God and anything outside of it is not necessary for salvation. THAT BEING SAID, however, the scripture does mandate an oral tradition. This tradition is not on par with the Word of God, though. So, for example. If you believed that we shouldn't venerate icons, that would be fine for you to believe in Anglicanism, since the veneration of icons is not required. You are, however, missing out on the fullness of the faith and probably wouldn't be allowed to become a priest. We can argue whether the Scripture is part of Tradition or whether Tradition proceeds from Scripture, but I find the latter view much more logically sound and Patristically verified. The third major difference is that our Bishop are allowed to be married. This is something I find to be extremely important. How are you supposed to understand the problems of family life if you don't have a wife or kids? Saint Peter, one of the greatest of the apostles was married. Therefore, it makes sense that those in succession to him may also be married. Chastity is not the life for everyone. We only FORMALLY recognize 2 sacraments, though we would probably be more than happy to add the other 5 if we needed to since we perform them anyway, but don't call them sacraments.

   Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:23:25 PM by NoahB »

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2015, 02:36:34 PM »
Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.

If by "most obvious" you mean most likely to be noticed by someone who is not familiar with either church, then you may be right.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:38:25 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2015, 02:42:09 PM »
However, it's a possibility my Church may seek to enter conversation with the Orthodox since we are already theologically very close.

Of course, I am certainly not an expert on Anglican theology, but from what I know of it, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism are miles apart. We may use some of the same words, perhaps, but it's not the same. At all.

Anglicanism as it exists under the See of Canterbury is apostate. They ordain homosexuals and women as clergy. One bishop wrote a book denying the virgin birth and saying that Jesus was the result of the Blessed Virgin Mary being raped by a Roman soldier. He also said it would be fine if she had an abortion. Those are the Apostates who now exist under the See of Canterbury.

HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

I've studied Orthodoxy seriously for about a year now, and Anglicanism even before that. There are only a few differences. The first is filioque, which both Westerners and Easterners can agree is more a semantical issue than anything else, since we both believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son. The wording is quite deceptive in the filioque. Secondly, our view on tradition is different. We believe that Scripture is the word of God and anything outside of it is not necessary for salvation. THAT BEING SAID, however, the scripture does mandate an oral tradition. This tradition is not on par with the Word of God, though. So, for example. If you believed that we shouldn't venerate icons, that would be fine for you to believe in Anglicanism, since the veneration of icons is not required. You are, however, missing out on the fullness of the faith and probably wouldn't be allowed to become a priest. We can argue whether the Scripture is part of Tradition or whether Tradition proceeds from Scripture, but I find the latter view much more logically sound and Patristically verified. The third major difference is that our Bishop are allowed to be married. This is something I find to be extremely important. How are you supposed to understand the problems of family life if you don't have a wife or kids? Saint Peter, one of the greatest of the apostles was married. Therefore, it makes sense that those in succession to him may also be married. Chastity is not the life for everyone. We only FORMALLY recognize 2 sacraments, though we would probably be more than happy to add the other 5 if we needed to since we perform them anyway, but don't call them sacraments.

Of course, the most obvious difference is in our Liturgics. St. Tikhon has taken care of that bit for us though, if discussion did happen.

With respect to icons, I suspect there might be less of a gap between you and the OO (who also venerate icons but do not require it to the extent the EO do, since they never experienced the iconoclast controversy). Armenians in particular use relatively few icons. On the other hand, there's also the issue of Chalcedon (for some reason, many early Anglican divines and Protestant reformers accepted the first four councils rather than the first three or seven, which is odd. Why stop at four, especially when no church prior to that point had done so)?

Celibacy for bishops is a discipline, not a doctrine; many early bishops were married. At some point (not sure when) an ecumenical council mandated that bishops be monks (and therefore celibate). However, such decrees are, in theory, reversible, but only if another holy synod agreed to reverse it. I don't think that's likely to happen, except possibly via economia (i. e, "grandfathering" in married Anglican bishops, but not allowing the ordination of "new" ones).

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2015, 04:18:10 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #160 on: February 27, 2015, 06:47:55 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2015, 06:49:41 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #162 on: February 27, 2015, 06:53:17 PM »
A trio of ethnics from Asia Minor, yes? Obsolete at that. The "Western churches" need to be cut free of them for "a couple of hundred years" and "let things take their course" organically.

Your usual sanctimonious crap aside, you're missing my point. If the Western Churches become autocephalous and the home grown populations begin to naturally outnumber the immigrants, then their inherited forms of worship will begin to evolve into more British, German, etc. style liturgies. That's how it worked in Russia.

That was ALL I meant.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2015, 06:54:39 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #164 on: February 27, 2015, 07:38:11 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2015, 08:15:53 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2015, 08:18:18 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2015, 09:00:58 PM »
All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?

Yes it must be that simple, to apply it to your vagante group (or even, arguably, Anglicanism as a whole). King Henry "didn't really care" about his five articles? Is this why he condemned the entirely of the clergy to death, moved ahead with executing some of them, and then presented the five articles (and an extremely huge fine) as their only hope of pardon? But if so, then your ecclesiastical lineage would be even more to blame for naming him sole Supreme Head of the Church.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 09:01:40 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2015, 09:48:37 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2015, 02:18:18 PM »
HOWEVER, in denominations such as my own (Anglican Province of America) and the Reformed Episcopal Church, we maintain the Anglican tradition as passed down from the earliest Christians in Britain. We still have Apostolic Succession, as well.

Actually,if you think about it, the earliest Christians in Britain were Orthodox, especially before Whitby. And you don't have Apostolic Succession, at least not any that we would recognize. Just vulgar curiosity, was Apostolic Succession maintained during the Reformation? If so, how?

All of the original Anglican bishops were ordained by Roman Catholic bishops, who can all draw their succession back to the apostles.

There are different meanings of "succession." When King Henry VIII threatened the Convocation of Canterbury and presented five articles, the first of which named himself "sole protector, and Supreme Head of the Church," it could be argued that meaningful succession had been broken by those clergy that acceded.

All excuses. Succession is simple: Bishop appoints successor. King Henry VIII was posturing politically and had no religious authority, he probably didn't real care about the theological reforms, either. Why do you want to keep us out of the Church so much?
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:18:32 PM by OrthoNoob »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2015, 02:55:23 PM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2015, 04:05:04 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.
How well do you know the Orthodox view of how Tradition works if you think yourself qualified to make such a statement?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2015, 06:20:31 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2015, 06:37:49 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
Not entirely. It is certainly a typical argument I've come across in a lot of my research into the Western Rite.
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2015, 12:31:59 PM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?

So, everything in general and nothing in particular?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »
Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically.
In Anglicanism, we do things organically by committee.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:39:14 AM by Mockingbird »
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2015, 10:41:32 AM »
There is more to succession than that for the Orthodox. He that is appointed must hold fast to the teachings he has received. To do otherwise is to forfeit apostolic succession. In the view of the Orthodox, Rome and by extension the Anglican Church went into schism and took on heretical beliefs, thereby breaking the succession.  There is no desire to keep anyone out of the Church, on the contrary, we wish all would come to the Church, but Orthodoxy cannot compromise on the teachings that have been handed down. To do otherwise would to separate from the Church ourselves.

I hear this a lot (by contrast, the Roman Catholic view of succession, where it is possible for heretics, as long as they still basically believe in the priesthood, to maintain AS, is often dismissed as "mechanistic"). I'm curious what it's based on.

Scripture, history, common sense, and an accurate perception of the justice of God?

So, everything in general and nothing in particular?

I can't help myself - I am going to nitpick here - so feel free to sneer! How does one know that one has an accurate perception of the justice of God?
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Re: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?
« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2015, 02:58:58 PM »
I think the Western Rite violates the spirit of the Orthodox view of how tradition works, yes.

"The cure," however, is just my opinion.

How so? Aren't the Greeks allowed their own cultural expression in the worship? The Russians, too? Why not, then, the English or German?

If the schism had not occurred, there would be no problem with that. Liturgical practices are supposed to go in and out of use organically. The Spirit has simply not seen fit to preserve them in an Orthodox context and we have to respect that.

Again, where are you finding your information that this is the Orthodox way?

I thought it was the typical argument made by Orthodox who oppose the Western Rite. I could be mistaken.

You are.
Not entirely. It is certainly a typical argument I've come across in a lot of my research into the Western Rite.
It is a typical argument, to be sure. However, the real answer is far simpler. The Church says its Orthodox, so it is. Everything else is really moot. Of course to say I am biased is an understatement.

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 02:59:21 PM by primuspilus »
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