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Author Topic: Why the Orthodox Affinity for Anglicans?  (Read 4231 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« on: June 11, 2013, 08:16:59 AM »

I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 08:24:12 AM »

It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 08:26:51 AM »

Theory 1: Hangups from the World Wars. Anglicans were allies, Lutherans were the enemy. (That didn't help the RC either, in my neck of the woods.)

Theory 2: It's the Anglicans who feel affinity with the Orthodox. After all, John Mason Neale co-founded the Anglican and Eastern Churches Association as early as 1864.

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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 08:30:07 AM »

I would recommend reading Sir Steven Runcimann's book, The Great Church in Captivity where he documents the contacts and relations of the EP (since they were the ones who made the initial contacts with Western Protestants) with various Protestant confessions, i.e. Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists.  I think you may get a few answers from that.  With the Anglicans, I think that the "affinity" really only pertains to what has happened here in America and, like LBK said, that affinity pretty much subsided by the early 1900s.
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 09:02:59 AM »

I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 09:36:14 AM »

Ditto.
I haven't noticed any recent affinity - except on the Anglican side. It's all old history.
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 09:57:38 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

While many people around here like to jump on the bash-the-'piskies bandwagon as soon as Anglicanism is mentioned like they get to skip a Toll House for insulting Episcopal clergy (seriously, start a thread about Episcopalians and see how long it takes for someone to say "priestess"), some folks look back at their time in the Episcopal church as a flawed but ultimately fruitful time that helped them come to Orthodoxy. So there's going to be some affinity for the system that, in its own way, helped them come to the truth.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 10:25:36 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

On a different but related note, I won't name names or cities, but I've met a handful of people who identified as Orthodox for years even though they attend and communed in an Episcopal parish, in part because there were no Orthodox churches available within 50 or 60 miles of their homes. When they moved to an area with an Orthodox church, they resumed communing in the OC without any pangs of conscience.
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 10:32:47 AM »

On a different but related note, I won't name names or cities, but I've met a handful of people who identified as Orthodox for years even though they attend and communed in an Episcopal parish, in part because there were no Orthodox churches available within 50 or 60 miles of their homes. When they moved to an area with an Orthodox church, they resumed communing in the OC without any pangs of conscience.

My husband's godfather is one. Of course, he's in his 70s so this was quite awhile ago. His priest and Bishop gave the Greek families permission to attend the local Episcopal church, when they were unable to make the long trip to the Greek Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »

orthodox Anglicans have an extremely similar ecclesiology and what many consider to be a compatible faith, at least considering those anglicans who ignore the protestant declarations made in the past.
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 11:41:25 AM »

I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

What is the state of the Roman Catholic Church in relationship with the ever growing influence of Pentecostalism and Evangelicals in Brazil?
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »

They try to fight it back. As I can see from outside, it seems there are several fronts: charismatic to fight them on their own ground, pop-midiatic which you can see in UHF channels, some with a lot of heavy weight funders behind like Aparecida TV, and more recently some internet traditionalists have been putting up a kind of "cultural war" against the many innacuracies Protestants cultivate about the nature and history of the Roman Church.

There are still traces of the "inculturation gang" which were very close to the Liberation Theology folks. These are the ones who would perform the crazy masses "adapted" to whatever sub-set of culture they happened to be near to. Unfortunately you still see that kind of thing even in major churches like the Aparecida Cathedral. Recently, the CNBB (the National Conference of Bishops of Brazil) issued a statement about reactivating the "Comunidades Eclesiais de Base" (Ecclesial Communities of the Base) which were Liberation Theology cells which promoted the advance of marxist-roman-catholicism and were responsible for the creation of PT (the Labourers Party, now in government for 10 years). This in light of the accumulating scandals that have made the popularity of the current president drop a lot. Basically, top government officials were condemned for corruption during Lula's term. Yet, they have taken office as Congressmen and are trying to issue laws that will limit decisions of the Judiciary. On top of that there are some abortion and gay marriage topics going on but the left is far too hegemonic, so the scenario is nothing like the US in that regard. You have the population who is overtly conservative on those matters and a political elite who has created anti-guns laws a couple of years a democratic referendum said no to them. Anyway, Pe. Marcelo, a singer-priest and one of the top figures of the pop-midiatic group, heavily criticized the CNBB on talk radio and that was a big surprise to everybody.

What seems to me to be the most succesful ones are the pop-midiatic (I don't mean it in a pejorative way) with a "doctrine-light" approach, masses that are very, *very* minimalist but at least not blasphemous as "circus masses" and similar stuff. They have an image of being more "humane", dettached from the pomp and circumstance of the more traditional forms of Roman Catholicism and yet loyal to its spirit and doctrine. Pope Francis comes out of this trend, I suppose. The more traditionalist folk seem to be right behind. Recently, a priest published coments that he thought that open marriages were not a sin against fidelity, and for gay marriage. He was called to take back what he said lest he be excommunicated. To show he is a spoiled child, he "quit" before anything happened, and was duely excommunicated after the deadline expired. The cardinal of São Paulo, the same who inspired the name Francis to the Pope, held a mass in the Catholic University against the protests of the alumni, long taken by leftist agremmiations since the late 50s, and that was a big victory for them as well.

Overall, the Roman Church still seems to be struglling to find a way to revert the trend. That has to do, unfortunately, with getting rid of the radical left that parasites it.


I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

What is the state of the Roman Catholic Church in relationship with the ever growing influence of Pentecostalism and Evangelicals in Brazil?
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 01:27:48 PM »

I think there are four main reasons. In the late 1800s as a result of the Oxford Movement there got to be a lot of interest in old theology and ritual, and one natural outlet for that was looking at eastern church material (not to mention the fathers). If you look in the Episcopal Hymnal you can see a bunch of new hymns from this period which are translations of patristic texts, for instance. This was enhanced by a certain natural compatibility and by the Anglican rejection of Thomism as a theological framework, which made it possible for the eastern contacts to teach Anglicans without being automatically rejected. The third factor was that the contacts were present in the first place: St. Tikhon's visit to the US, and later the emigre community created by the communists, brought Russian clerics in contact with the Anglicans, who were eager to talk to them in turn. The final factor, of course, is that the Russian church arts, especially music, are very beautiful, and Anglicans by then had become connoisseurs of church beauty. All of this made Russian things very attractive to Anglicans, and for a time the inward flow was quite strong.

If thinking that heresies are demonic is the starting point for your analysis, then I think you aren't going to get very far. Anglicanism has an extremely strong proclivity towards looking to other churches for ideas, and incorporating them without being converted utterly to someone else's system. That's ultimately why Anglo-Orthodox discussions inevitably fail: the Orthodox aren't interested, as a rule, in discussion. They talk, but they don't listen. That said, relationships with other churches are colored by familial connections which the Orthodox don't have. Lutherans, Calvinists and (Ana-)Baptists are sisters, of the same generation: there is some talk, but it is very much between equals/rivals (excepting the Methodists, our own sept). Catholicism is, of course, Mom, with all the dynamics that implies. The implied authority claim always sticks, especially when She's wrong.  Wink Also, in the USA the two churches took very different paths in looking at liturgy which still do not sit well with each other. The Orthodox, on the other hand, came to us without a lot of common history; therefore the political tensions were never there to get in the way.



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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 01:34:40 PM »

...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.  The problem with the pope merely granting a divorce/annullment was that his wife's nephew was the emperor of Spain, who at the time was holding the pope hostage.  The only way to grant the divorce from his sinful marriage and to not have the pope killed was to first break off from the church.  The (still technically Catholic) Archbishop of Canterbury granted the divorce.  What he did was not technically uncanonical in the Roman Church at the time, as kings were given the same rights to appointing bishops as the pope.

King Henry VIII was appointed a "Defender of the Faith" by the pope before all of this happened and he wrote extensively against Martin Luther.

The early Anglican fruits were actually good.  Before the Anglicans split, people would be burned alive in England for having a Bible written in English in their possession.  But King Henry VIII changed all of that and allowed the free printing of the Word of God.  He also got rid of "Peter's Pence" (which often went to fund the armies of England's enemies), he destroyed a lot of the church's property and gave it back to England's citizens who were often forced to give it to the church to begin with, and stopped many other things from the old and oppressive Church. Of course, he still had his whole marrying fourteen different people problem, but at the time people were really misogynist and believed that it was his wife's fault for not producing an heir, many of the divorces were not his decisions.  All of these things lead to the Roman Church cutting off communication with England, but that didn't happen until about the time of Queen Elizabeth.  Eventually after Queen Mary, the King James Bible was printed in 1611 and the rest is history.

Having said all of this, it truly feels like an unfair waste to me.  The Anglican Church was founded, contrary to popular belief, on stopping someone in a high place of power from committing sexual immorality, yet the modern Anglicans were not only one of the first Christian denominations to allow homosexuals to marry, but now they have practicing homosexuals as bishops.

I think the Lutherans (LCMS especially) are probably the "best" protestant denomination, but I probably would not have said that 100 years ago.


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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 01:37:14 PM »

I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others?
As others have said already, we once did, but that affinity no longer exists.

The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce.
You do realize that the creation of the Church of England is a lot more nuanced than your simple-minded polemics allow you to believe?

All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.
Come back and rejoin this discussion after you've done a lot more reading on the subject. Right now your polemics appear to be keeping you ignorant.
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 12:09:30 AM »

Thanks to those of you who took the time to answer my question without condescension or ridicule. Some very informative responses, so I am grateful. You can't learn if you don't ask; so I'll keep asking questions, even if some people continue to belittle me for my lack of omniscience.

Thanks again.


Selam
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 12:15:39 AM »

My status is not exactly Orthodox... let's call is complex... but my position now is essentially the same as when I was/am/will be Orthodox... and I do have an affinity for Anglicans. Of course  "Anglican" is not a thing in itself, apart from the actual people that constitute the group. Thus I like some Anglicans more than others. I like some theology more than others. I like some practices more than others. And so forth. It's hard to speak of an entire group as though it's all in lock step, especially one that has tens of millions, and especially when such diversity is allowed within the group. Maybe this diversity plays into one reason I like "Anglicans" though: because I can pick and choose which ones I am talking about when I say I like them. And maybe that's why some people can dismiss them so easily: because they can pick and choose to speak mainly of the ones who do things and say things and believe things they are vehemently against. When I think Anglican I think of people like Ebor. I like Ebor, not just as an intelligent person, but as a religious person. Other people maybe think of Bp. Spong when they think of Anglican.
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 12:19:23 AM »

here in america episcopalians are , essentially, a upper middle class phenomenon an so is orthodoxy. if you check those income statistics parsed up by religious affiliation, published not too long ago. you see the affinity .
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 12:41:50 AM »

That was signed under your beloved monarchy. At least get your facts straight. Prob because the king had Anglican relatives .
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 12:46:52 AM »

That was signed under your beloved monarchy. At least get your facts straight. Prob because the king had Anglican relatives .

Did so. But the Communists were not opposed to ecumenical pursuits with the CoE. Quite the contrary. Ceausescu himself later paid a state visit to HM Queen Elizabeth.   
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 12:48:47 AM »

I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies. Can you guys help me understand? Forgive my ignorance.


Selam

Its been a while since then.  But read the older BCP (keeping in mind at that time similar dogmatic and moral inclinations). 
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 12:49:49 AM »

So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 12:50:44 AM »

It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.

right
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 12:51:49 AM »

Theory 1: Hangups from the World Wars. Anglicans were allies, Lutherans were the enemy. (That didn't help the RC either, in my neck of the woods.)

Theory 2: It's the Anglicans who feel affinity with the Orthodox. After all, John Mason Neale co-founded the Anglican and Eastern Churches Association as early as 1864.



Right, but Lutherans never saw 7 sacraments, some Anglicans did. 
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 12:53:56 AM »

I think it's a cultural and regional thing.

Here in Brazil Orthodoxy and RC live a bromance.

Being an overral friendly minority in the West, Orhodox will tend to have good relations and seek affinities with the major religions of the culture they are in.

Good point.  It is the reality.  But North America ceased to have such relations with Anglicans "above others" long ago.
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 12:55:23 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.

True, but many of these seem to have been Episcopalian, then Orthodox, then back to Episcopalian.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 12:59:00 AM »

So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?

I have nothing but contempt for Communism, as befits any Romanian and Eastern European.

The point was that at least Romanian Communists were not disdainful of Anglicanism because of its association with the British monarchy or the upper classes. 
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2013, 01:24:26 AM »

Well 70 pc of Romanians do not share Yo
Your contempt. They must know something you have no access to.
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 01:34:17 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

While many people around here like to jump on the bash-the-'piskies bandwagon as soon as Anglicanism is mentioned like they get to skip a Toll House for insulting Episcopal clergy (seriously, start a thread about Episcopalians and see how long it takes for someone to say "priestess"), some folks look back at their time in the Episcopal church as a flawed but ultimately fruitful time that helped them come to Orthodoxy. So there's going to be some affinity for the system that, in its own way, helped them come to the truth.

Hey! I represent both those remarks!

I value my time in the Episcopal Church for what it taught me about Orthodoxy. But I will drop the feminine English suffix on "priest" at the drop of the hat- more for linguistic purity than caring whether or not it get's someone's panties in a bunch (I will also add the suffix to actors, stewards, and waiters of the female persuasion with no pang of conscience whatsoever- there's nothing 'piskie bashing about that). One can both have an affinity and see the problems inherent in with the old system, such as the many American immigrants who have changed their citizenship, are proud of their heritage, yet also quick to point out the problems in their former governments.
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2013, 10:28:57 AM »

...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean. And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2013, 10:43:50 AM »

...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean.
Yes I caught that just after my time ran out for the edit.

And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
Please enlighten us with a source for this revelation.
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2013, 10:49:14 AM »

...Especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce....
Actually, King Henry VIII tried to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife was actually his half-sister.

LOL. Sister-in-law, you mean.
Yes I caught that just after my time ran out for the edit.

And he did not just suddenly find that out. He was well aware, as was all of the royal court, when he married her.

Your glasses are extremely rosy, buddy.
Please enlighten us with a source for this revelation.

Why would he not know who his brother, the crown prince, had publicly married? Huh
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »

It's been decades since this "affinity" ceased to exist.

this ^^ sentence hit the nail on the head.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2013, 11:54:50 AM »

On a side note, as a Catholic I'd say that we moved much closer to Anglicans ... while they moved away from Anglicanism toward something completely different.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2013, 11:58:31 AM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

 Sad Wow, that's really sad (if it's true of course).

I was recently telling someone (a convert to Catholicism who said he regretted the decision) that I think there's an epidemic of rushed conversions to Catholicism. I wonder if it's the same with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM »

I have a question:

Of all the Protestant denominations, why does the Orthodox Church seem to have more affinity for Anglicans than all others? The Anglican church seems to have deviated further from Orthodox values than any other mainstream denomination. They even elect homosexual "bishops." So, I am confused as to why we Orthodox seem to profess more kinship with Anglicans than other Protestant denominations - especially since the Anglican church was essentially founded upon the sin of divorce. All I can surmise is that the Anglicans are at least sacramental, but the Lutherans are too. And I personally have more respect for those that deny the sacraments than for those who profess to validate the sacraments while teaching demonic heresies.

Thanks to those of you who took the time to answer my question without condescension or ridicule.

On the bright side, at least it wasn't demonic ridicule.
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2013, 12:18:11 PM »

You'll find lots of Orthodox converts who went through an Episcopalian phase.

There seem to be some Episcopalians who went through an Orthodox phase as well.
True enough. There's a list of orthoconvert rules out there somewhere (akin to the rules of the Internet) that says most Orthodox converts don't last five years.

 Sad Wow, that's really sad (if it's true of course).

I was recently telling someone (a convert to Catholicism who said he regretted the decision) that I think there's an epidemic of rushed conversions to Catholicism. I wonder if it's the same with Orthodoxy.
I don't know if I can apply that statement to most converts, but I can certainly think of a half-dozen I know in my own life. Anecdotal evidence can be found all over the Internet.

I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.
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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2013, 12:29:39 PM »

So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
To whom is this directed?
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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 12:36:10 PM »

I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.


POM nominee! Excellent!
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »

I don't know if I can apply that statement to most converts, but I can certainly think of a half-dozen I know in my own life. Anecdotal evidence can be found all over the Internet.

I think there's an honest critique to be had about how Americans boutique -- to use that sometimes offensive term -- their religions, and I think popular lay apologists for both RC and EO exacerbate the problem by acting like they have flawless arguments that will erase all faith-doubt once someone is confirmed. But anyone who has ever been on an extended vacation knows that the longer one stays in the boutique, the less magical it is.

Even beyond that, I think there's a generational characteristic involved. Millennials (in this case I mean those who were teenagers in the 90s) like to impulsively get neck deep in something, find a reason to become disillusioned and then walk away. Since we've been trained to treat religion as a consumer exercise, if it isn't giving giving the expected pleasure one wants from buying in, you stop buying it.


Great post!

One of those millennials here. Tongue (I hate that term too and what it implies and am thankful to not behave as other millennials do.) And a recent convert too!

You are touching on certain points that I think are correct, from my own experience. I come from a Protestant background, and it was basically nothing to go between churches based on how "well" the pastor did, if their friends were there, etc. This was all ages, but I was seeing it more in those my age or younger. However, and this was interesting to me, many churches were yielding to it to "keep the numbers up." They would introduce things such as "modern worship" services with rock bands, have yoga classes, outsource coffee stands for the entrance, have day care (not Sunday school), etc. Very much a "consumer" focus and what the church can do for "me" and work for me.

I longed for and prayed so hard to find truth, and that path took me through an Episcopal church and a Catholic church, but I had many qualms too with them and eventually arrived at an Orthodox Church. Small congregation, but the most faithful I had been around. Yes, I was "shopping around," but more than that, I wanted to find something "right." I wanted my church to give me the tools to make me work on myself and change me, and I think that attitude is different than other millenials who want things done their way. I also wanted to be somewhere where I felt I was doing something for God, or at the very least participating in worship with His presence there. So, I think part of it is attitude and I pray that many adopt the right attitude. But, there are those earnestly looking out there for real Tradition, and we can't eliminate how important that is.

As it relates back to the topic, what made me visit an Episcopal church was that the traditions seemed older, the sacraments meant something, and it felt more traditional than having a rock band play at you. The Catholic church I then visited was actually far less traditional and a lot more like a Methodist service. I then went to another and it was about the same. I never went to a Lutheran church to know anything about that. I just found it interesting that the Episcopal service was more "high" than either of the two Catholic services I went to. I did a lot of reading too, and came across some great authors on both sides (N.T. Wright, Henri Nouwen), but based on the actual experiences I had compared to what I read (and even read online, not just books), I never felt that it really matched the reality. But, it is part of my journey getting to where I am now, and I am at least thankful for having seen what it is like!
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »

Up until the mid to late 1900s there were points of contact between Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans, with some Orthodox bishops even allowing Orthodox laity to commune in Anglican churches if there were no Eastern Orthodox parishes nearby. However this began to unravel with tEC introducing the innovation of WO. 

When ACNA formed, Metropolitan Jonah addressed them and basically said that the issues of WO and 'Calvinism' needed to be dealt with before any fruitful ecumenical dialog could proceed.  (And if I remember correctly, didn't one of the Russian Orthodox heirarchs have some strong words for Canturbury recently?)

At any rate, for those who have the time, Arthur Middleton has a good book called FATHERS AND ANGLICANS which demonstrates the proximity between the thought of many of the Anglican Divines (such as Lancelot Andrewes) and Orthodoxy, particularly among those theologians/churchmen who stressed the importance of the consensus of the early Church. 
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 05:26:01 PM »

(And if I remember correctly, didn't one of the Russian Orthodox heirarchs have some strong words for Canturbury recently?)

Yes, it was over women bisops. If they do ordain them, Russia was threatening all thoughts of future unity to be done for.
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 05:26:39 PM »

So what? Apart from an apparent fixation you have for communism?
To whom is this directed?
Not to you. Peace
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 05:32:02 PM »

Up until the mid to late 1900s there were points of contact between Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans, with some Orthodox bishops even allowing Orthodox laity to commune in Anglican churches if there were no Eastern Orthodox parishes nearby. However this began to unravel with tEC introducing the innovation of WO.  

I've heard it told that way; but I've also heard it differently -- namely, that it stopped even before WO.
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