Author Topic: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition  (Read 9458 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2013, 02:22:42 PM »
Perhaps not in Poland, but in the US most people I know will say they are (fill in the blank) Orthodox.  Heck, the Serbian priest in our area goes by the name "Fr. Serb" to people from other parishes.  :laugh:

No doubt that's because he's named after St Serbios the Antiphyletist.  You thought it was because he was Serbian.  LOL.
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The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2013, 02:24:57 PM »
Perhaps not in Poland, but in the US most people I know will say they are (fill in the blank) Orthodox.  Heck, the Serbian priest in our area goes by the name "Fr. Serb" to people from other parishes.  :laugh:

No doubt that's because he's named after St Serbios the Antiphyletist.  You thought it was because he was Serbian.  LOL.
HAHAHA!  :laugh:
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2013, 02:38:45 PM »
Greetings!  My name is Josh, and I am an inquirer of the Greek Orthodox faith.  

Sorry to try and correct you Josh, bugs the heck out of me when people word it like that. Whether you are Greek, Russian, Serbian, Antiochian, Jerusalem ect it's all the same Orthodox Church. For example, you wouldn't say "I have a Greek Orthodox friend." you say, "I have a friend who is Orthodox and happens to be Greek."  We are all Orthodox, it's all the same, the traditions change a little bit. Leave ethnicity at home and don't bring it to the Church.




I dunno, this looks pretty Greek to me...



Sounds like a separation of the Church to me. We have Orthodox who are Greek, speak Greek, practice Greek tradition and live in Greece, but they are still Orthodox. Ask a Russian, American, African, Chinese, Serbian, etc if they are "Greek Orthodox" and they'll say no, I'm Orthodox.
If you ask a Russian, he will tell you he is Russian Orthodox.  If you ask a Serb, he will tell you he is Serbian Orthodox, If you ask a Greek, he will tell you he is Greek Orthodox.  If you ask any of the others, he will tell you whatever Patriarchate he is under.  I am Antiochian Orthodox, that doesn't mean I'm Antiochian by ethnicity, but it does identify the succession that i am with.

To me it is clear that this is not a reflection of apostolic succession, but rather the underlying nation-state nation-state to which the jurisdiction traces back its history. Antioch is an exception, as nation state borders there were subject to much change over the centuries so I suspect, its  flock self identified as being "of Antioch".

Interestingly, the two North American jurisdictions founded by Rusyn immigrants to the USA are the OCA and ACROD. The Rusyns are a nationality without a home country, coming from what are now parts of Slovakia, Ukraine, Poland, Hunary, Serbia and Romania. http://www.slovakia.org/society-rusyn.htm

If you were to ask a typical parishioner of either, what religion they are, the most likely response today  is "Orthodox Christian."

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2013, 03:01:48 PM »
To me it is clear that this is not a reflection of apostolic succession, but rather the underlying nation-state nation-state to which the jurisdiction traces back its history. Antioch is an exception, as nation state borders there were subject to much change over the centuries so I suspect, its  flock self identified as being "of Antioch".

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually think the American use of the term "Antiochian" has less to do with national borders changing frequently over centuries and more to do with the history of how the Chalcedonian "Rum Orthodox" and the non-Chalcedonian "Syrian Orthodox" both claimed the name "Syrian Orthodox" for themselves in English.  This went all the way to Court here in the States, and the non-Chalcedonians prevailed over the Chalcedonians, who then adopted the style "Antiochian Orthodox".  Our side kept "Syrian Orthodox" until two (?) censuses ago, when the bishops changed the name to Syriac rather than Syrian so that the people would record themselves this way in the US Census in order to properly allocate foreign aid (to the Suryani people rather than the government of the nation of Syria). 

Some older Antiochian parishes are still called Syrian Orthodox, IIRC, and the youth organisation is still SOYO, where SO is Syrian Orthodox.  AOYO just doesn't sound right, so we won't sue.  :P 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2013, 03:16:49 PM »
To me it is clear that this is not a reflection of apostolic succession, but rather the underlying nation-state nation-state to which the jurisdiction traces back its history. Antioch is an exception, as nation state borders there were subject to much change over the centuries so I suspect, its  flock self identified as being "of Antioch".

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually think the American use of the term "Antiochian" has less to do with national borders changing frequently over centuries and more to do with the history of how the Chalcedonian "Rum Orthodox" and the non-Chalcedonian "Syrian Orthodox" both claimed the name "Syrian Orthodox" for themselves in English.  This went all the way to Court here in the States, and the non-Chalcedonians prevailed over the Chalcedonians, who then adopted the style "Antiochian Orthodox".  Our side kept "Syrian Orthodox" until two (?) censuses ago, when the bishops changed the name to Syriac rather than Syrian so that the people would record themselves this way in the US Census in order to properly allocate foreign aid (to the Suryani people rather than the government of the nation of Syria). 

Some older Antiochian parishes are still called Syrian Orthodox, IIRC, and the youth organisation is still SOYO, where SO is Syrian Orthodox.  AOYO just doesn't sound right, so we won't sue.  :P 

Sounds right.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2013, 03:18:14 PM »
Forums are not always the best places to get the correct explanation on this topic.  My answer to this is to seek out an Orthodox Priest and have  him explain it.......  

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2013, 03:19:53 PM »
Forums are not always the best places to get the correct explanation on this topic.  My answer to this is to seek out an Orthodox Priest and have  him explain it.......  

Actually this is exactly the kind of question that should be asked on a message board and not some random priest. I would go so far to say that it's probably one of the best examples of that.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2013, 03:21:38 PM »
Greetings!  My name is Josh, and I am an inquirer of the Greek Orthodox faith. 

Sorry to try and correct you Josh, bugs the heck out of me when people word it like that. Whether you are Greek, Russian, Serbian, Antiochian, Jerusalem ect it's all the same Orthodox Church. For example, you wouldn't say "I have a Greek Orthodox friend." you say, "I have a friend who is Orthodox and happens to be Greek."  We are all Orthodox, it's all the same, the traditions change a little bit. Leave ethnicity at home and don't bring it to the Church.




I dunno, this looks pretty Greek to me...



Sounds like a separation of the Church to me. We have Orthodox who are Greek, speak Greek, practice Greek tradition and live in Greece, but they are still Orthodox. Ask a Russian, American, African, Chinese, Serbian, etc if they are "Greek Orthodox" and they'll say no, I'm Orthodox.
If you ask a Russian, he will tell you he is Russian Orthodox.  If you ask a Serb, he will tell you he is Serbian Orthodox, If you ask a Greek, he will tell you he is Greek Orthodox.  If you ask any of the others, he will tell you whatever Patriarchate he is under.  I am Antiochian Orthodox, that doesn't mean I'm Antiochian by ethnicity, but it does identify the succession that i am with.

No, not.
Perhaps not in Poland, but in the US most people I know will say they are (fill in the blank) Orthodox.  Heck, the Serbian priest in our area goes by the name "Fr. Serb" to people from other parishes.  :laugh:

In the 19th century, the Russian Church's mission to Alaska was not called the Russian Orthodox mission, in Russian, but simply the Orthodox mission. I'm not sure how often the ethnic epithet is used by Orthodox people in Russia or even Greece. It may be in the official name of the church, but that seems to be it until you get to a situation like in America where if you just say you're Orthodox, people think you're Jewish.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2013, 03:22:53 PM »
Forums are not always the best places to get the correct explanation on this topic.  My answer to this is to seek out an Orthodox Priest and have  him explain it.......  

Which topic? Scripture and Holy Tradition or ethnic monikers for local Orthodox Churches?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
For years if I had to describe/say a religious affiliation I said Antiochian Orthodox. "Orthodox" is too easily mistaken for Jewish, and "Orthodox Christian," beside being boring/easily boxed in, could be something said by all sorts of people. How many Protestant people say that they're orthodox? If you say Antiochian Orthodox people will, once in a while anyway, look at you funny and ask what the heck an Antiochian is.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 03:24:19 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2013, 03:32:01 PM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.

So far as I understand, for hundreds of years that would have been the most understandable identifier in English-speaking countries, whether you were Greek, Russian, or whatever else, even into the mid-20th century.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2013, 04:45:27 PM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.

This is where the saying, "Only in America" fits in nicely.

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2013, 04:48:44 PM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.

This is where the saying, "Only in America" fits in nicely.

Everywhere prior to XXth century when people started to invent themselves fancy names like "Russian Orthodox" or "Serbian Orthodox" or other "Name-of-my-village Orthodox".
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2013, 05:27:48 PM »
In Greece I have only heard people refer to themselves as Christian Orthodox.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2013, 05:29:38 PM »
In Greece I have only heard people refer to themselves as Christian Orthodox.

In Greece there are two types of people: Christians (ie. Greeks) and everyone else (e.g. Catholics, Protestants, etc.)  ;)

Offline Antonis

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2013, 07:07:24 PM »
For years if I had to describe/say a religious affiliation I said Antiochian Orthodox. "Orthodox" is too easily mistaken for Jewish, and "Orthodox Christian," beside being boring/easily boxed in, could be something said by all sorts of people. How many Protestant people say that they're orthodox? If you say Antiochian Orthodox people will, once in a while anyway, look at you funny and ask what the heck an Antiochian is.
I typically say "Orthodox Catholic" for that very reason. Not only is it most accurate, but it tells them that I am Christian, and also gives them some idea of what my Church is like (considering Catholicism is the closest thing to Orthodoxy a typical American could identify with).
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2013, 02:36:39 AM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.

This is where the saying, "Only in America" fits in nicely.

Everywhere prior to XXth century when people started to invent themselves fancy names like "Russian Orthodox" or "Serbian Orthodox" or other "Name-of-my-village Orthodox".

I was referring to the fact we don't have an American Orthodoxy yet and can't even call ourselves that even if we wanted to.

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Re: Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2013, 07:07:04 AM »
I did not intend to cause a controversy, only to attempt to give a different perspective to Peacemaker regarding his rebuke of the Gyllynn and the usage of the term Greek Orthodox.  I certainly don't think it is wrong to call ones self Orthodox or Orthodox Christian, but I also think it is acceptable to self identify as Greek Orthodox as a means of explaining the jurisdiction you are attending.

This is where the saying, "Only in America" fits in nicely.

Everywhere prior to XXth century when people started to invent themselves fancy names like "Russian Orthodox" or "Serbian Orthodox" or other "Name-of-my-village Orthodox".

I was referring to the fact we don't have an American Orthodoxy yet and can't even call ourselves that even if we wanted to.

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