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Author Topic: Are any of you universalists?  (Read 2573 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #90 on: June 10, 2013, 10:03:15 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)


im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?


There is no eradication for demons and evil men, but eternal punishment.
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« Reply #91 on: June 10, 2013, 10:09:15 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
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« Reply #92 on: June 10, 2013, 10:11:13 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

The resurrection of the body has always been a central tenant of Christianity. Nothing about spheres.
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« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2013, 10:47:16 PM »

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

The resurrection of the body has always been a central tenant of Christianity. Nothing about spheres.

1 Corinthians 15:32-44.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2013, 06:15:09 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
I invite you to read my post again.  There you will find what you seek.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2013, 10:31:51 AM »

quote author=theistgal link=topic=51856.msg936133#msg936133 date=1370876174]
Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

Actually the Scriptures explicitly describe God (aka Jesus Christ) as a "lamb". Lambs aren't goats, ipso facto ergo sum, God's not a goat.

There. Solved it for you! Aren't you glad there was a legalistic Roman Catholic around to help out?
[/quote]

References to Jesus as the Lamb of God are a metaphor for the sacrificial paschal lamb. You know that, right?

Never the less, just because the scriptures dont say that we will not resurrect as "spheres", does not indicate that it is a possibility
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 10:33:14 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2013, 11:57:33 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2013, 11:59:52 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Of course not. Like all sinful passions, humor is overcome gradually by prayer and ascesis.
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« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2013, 12:01:54 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Of course not. Like all sinful passions, humor is overcome gradually by prayer and ascesis.

 laugh

Now that is funny!  Oops, I must go prostrate.
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« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2013, 12:07:38 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

You don't know the most awesome reply oc.net ever gave to this question posed by none other than myself?
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« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

You don't know the most awesome reply oc.net ever gave to this question posed by none other than myself?

Did you give up your sense of humor in solidarity with Conan or out of Orthodox romanticism?

There are only tears in holy Russia.
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« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2013, 12:21:04 PM »

BWUAHAHAHA!!! 

Crap, more prostrations.  Angry


that was a really good response, actually
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« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2013, 01:29:51 PM »

I have to think that betting on universalism (rather than hoping for it) is spiritual foolishness.
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« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2013, 05:20:19 PM »

I have to think that betting on universalism (rather than hoping for it) is spiritual foolishness.

Be careful.  You may be accused of being hard hearted.
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« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2013, 07:52:22 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

I know exactly what you mean and just made a similar comment in another thread!!  police
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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Some things are so funny that you lose your sense of humor after that. Like being so scared of something nothing scares you after that.

Here is more info from South Park on how that works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGDk1DS_Zpg 
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« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2013, 02:26:50 AM »

The idea is rediculous.
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« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2013, 08:57:00 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
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« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2013, 07:57:05 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 
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« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2013, 09:51:34 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
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« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2013, 10:01:43 PM »

So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
The context of this verse is not who is going to heaven and who isn't. Christ is speaking about our actions and the way we live. I think Christ could have instead said "it is easier to do evil than good." Further, how much is "few" to God? 5? 10? 1,000,000? My guess is anything short of everyone is few to God because he wants us all with Him.

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
If this were true, it would make God a liar and unworthy of worship.
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« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2013, 10:39:46 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 

So it matters not who was speaking. Okay. Whatever.
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« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2013, 10:45:37 PM »

So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
The context of this verse is not who is going to heaven and who isn't. Christ is speaking about our actions and the way we live. I think Christ could have instead said "it is easier to do evil than good." Further, how much is "few" to God? 5? 10? 1,000,000? My guess is anything short of everyone is few to God because he wants us all with Him.

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

When did you cook this up? Earlier you just said you rejected the Bible in this area.

I know it's kind of a popular opinion among the netodox, but the whole "the church interprets the scripture" line does not mean "we are free to reject parts of the Bible we don't like as contradictory."
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« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2013, 01:22:40 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 

So it matters not who was speaking. Okay. Whatever.
I simply don't share your opinion.
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« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2013, 03:01:23 PM »

When did you cook this up? Earlier you just said you rejected the Bible in this area.

I know it's kind of a popular opinion among the netodox, but the whole "the church interprets the scripture" line does not mean "we are free to reject parts of the Bible we don't like as contradictory."
I would revise my statement and say that I reject the weight certain parts of the Bible are given, and certain interpretations of verses. I think Matthew 7:13-14 are a good example:

"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

These verses alone are ambiguous enough that they could be interpreted a number of ways. For example, when Jesus says "... broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction" what does destruction mean? Complete annihilation? A spiritual death where the self never completely disappears?

As I said before, I think these verses point more to an individual's condition based upon whether they align themselves with goodness, which is life, or evil, which is destruction. We can see everyday how evil choices result in a destructive life. I don't think these verses can be used to demonstrate the population statistics of heaven and hell.

I would also argue that if God knows from eternity that the result of his creation will be mostly death and suffering (assuming most people end up in Hell) then God has chosen to carry something out that is more costly than it is beneficial. Can we really call a creation that results in mostly death and suffering a good thing?
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« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2013, 10:02:32 AM »

I simply don't share your opinion.

I just read an interesting article (sorry I don't have a link) basically to the effect that one human saying they don't share another human's opinion may trigger the "fight or flight" reflex, the same way an actual physical threat would do.

Which would seem to explain 99.9% of most internet boards ...  Grin
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« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2013, 12:00:26 AM »

I simply don't share your opinion.

I just read an interesting article (sorry I don't have a link) basically to the effect that one human saying they don't share another human's opinion may trigger the "fight or flight" reflex, the same way an actual physical threat would do.

Which would seem to explain 99.9% of most internet boards ...  Grin
That is interesting.  My experience has shown once this is said, things usually calm down.  But in this instance, I had a specific reason for using those words.
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« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
If this were true, it would make God a liar and unworthy of worship.

Welllll, scriptures do say that God is a liar.


Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

Regards
DL
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