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Author Topic: Are any of you universalists?  (Read 2622 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2013, 12:59:14 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.
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« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2013, 01:29:55 AM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?


I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
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« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2013, 01:52:29 AM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."

I'd point out here that there is not only a difference between 'must' and 'hope,' but between 'must' and 'will.'
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« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2013, 01:53:40 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.
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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2013, 01:58:31 AM »

Your statement really hits home for me. I have been wrestling with the concept of free will and choice as of late, and ideas like rejecting God or choosing Hell of our own free will seem absurd to me. Can one really freely choose what goes counter for their biological and psychological drive for perceived goods? It seems that such a decision would necessarily be the result of ignorance or psychosis.
yeah i dont like to get into reductionism anymore. its interesting to see the dialectics played out between the two (or the absurd methodologies theologians employ), but life is pretty much contradictory and constantly being moved/changed by opposites.

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions. it just screams of legalism, much of it commandeered from the bourgeois.

Legalism (theology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28theology%29

and really do you see here how much it atomizes humans here? (make note how we get individualism out of free will also, which is odd because we should be all like christ)

much of the protestant work ethic derives much from an idea of free will, but the roman catholics in the past had a much better way of dealing with work ethic and free will.

christians can be a disgusting lot, especially stewarded by terrible (literally) theologians behind the pulpit

also, its not a sin to be ignorant. arrogant, perhaps. actually that may require a larger penance.
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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2013, 02:01:43 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.
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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2013, 02:02:00 AM »

Seems like a weak man's philosophy to me. Why is it so hard to accept that some people will go to Hell? Christ made it very clear and constantly talked about it in His Gospels. I grew up my entire life hearing about Hell and punishment. It didn't screw me up or disturb me as much as it does so many of these wealthy, liberal upper-middle class, woe-is-me Liberaldox Larry "Christians"?
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« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2013, 02:04:38 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That's an argument from ignorance, dude. It kills me to lock wits with you because you are my friend, but I calls it like I see it. ultimately you are saying that since Christ is often confusing and His teachings are hard to understand, that universalism must be true or something along those lines. It's like when an Evangelical says God is real because there is "no evidence that He doesn't exist."
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« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2013, 02:11:39 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

it only took a cursory glance at what kierkergaard was writing of christ when i realized everybody else seemed so muddled

the big trip for conservatives like kerdy are the staunch commnual stuff christ instructed us to do.
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« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2013, 02:13:09 AM »

Why is it so hard to accept that some people will go to Hell?
I think the most obvious answer is because of love. If we care for our fellow human beings we should absolutely struggle with the idea of them being lost.

For a more philosophical answer to your question I would point to questions such as:

1. Do we actually have free will?

2. Can a person freely choose Hell?

3. What is the point of allowing someone to suffer eternally?

Christ clearly states in the NT that it would have been better if Judas had never been born because of his sins. If this is truly the case then why didn't God destroy Judas? Shouldn't God, being goodness, do what is best?
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« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2013, 02:19:53 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
how can you actively reject something that you may not put any thought into?

isnt rejecting god some sort of a spiritual problem?

here we go with adhereing to some sort of strict disciplanarian action to thwart some kind of "sin". you are too legalistic.

really whats the damnation here?
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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2013, 02:20:22 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2013, 02:21:40 AM »

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
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« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2013, 02:22:42 AM »

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
dispute from whom and of what quality are the disputes?

atleast the flat earther who posted here was far more coherent than the creationists i faced.

why is evolution such a stumbling block for people i will never understand.
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« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2013, 02:26:54 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
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« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2013, 02:29:08 AM »

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
dispute from whom and of what quality are the disputes?

atleast the flat earther who posted here was far more coherent than the creationists i faced.

why is evolution such a stumbling block for people i will never understand.

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
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« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2013, 02:37:55 AM »

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
again you have too much faith in the agency of humans.

people born in hell are going to be _______

for every exception you have multitudes of people getting dragged down by their environment. what sort of free will is that
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« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2013, 02:39:23 AM »

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
no but your little justice scales should balance out the better argument here
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« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2013, 02:44:27 AM »

again you have too much faith in the agency of humans.

people born in hell are going to be _______

for every exception you have multitudes of people getting dragged down by their environment. what sort of free will is that

Well, free will and synergy are part of every Orthodox description of man's salvation that I've ever heard.
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« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2013, 03:00:38 AM »

In my more religious moments, yes.
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« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2013, 03:07:17 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
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« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2013, 03:12:26 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
look at his avatar

its gotta be black and white.

william didnt like the new math very much
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2013, 03:13:15 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
look at his avatar

its gotta be black and white.

william didnt like the new math very much

What new math?
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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2013, 05:49:30 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That's an argument from ignorance, dude. It kills me to lock wits with you because you are my friend, but I calls it like I see it. ultimately you are saying that since Christ is often confusing and His teachings are hard to understand, that universalism must be true or something along those lines. It's like when an Evangelical says God is real because there is "no evidence that He doesn't exist."

I encourage you to read the post I was replying to.
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2013, 06:53:39 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.
Jesus was clear, it's people who muddle the teachings.
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2013, 06:54:09 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.
You are welcome.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2013, 06:55:40 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
how can you actively reject something that you may not put any thought into?

isnt rejecting god some sort of a spiritual problem?

here we go with adhereing to some sort of strict disciplanarian action to thwart some kind of "sin". you are too legalistic.

really whats the damnation here?

What are you talking about?
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2013, 06:57:30 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2013, 06:58:23 AM »

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
no but your little justice scales should balance out the better argument here
Better argument according to what standard?
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2013, 06:59:43 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2013, 01:20:28 PM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2013, 01:26:34 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2013, 01:33:42 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2013, 05:22:49 PM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
There are not 10,000 roads to God.  Without faith on Christ, a person will never find God.  I don't make the rules, I simply live by them.  The scholarly folks you speak of denied universal salvation for all.  That pretty much ends the debate, unless you belong to a different church.

EDIT:  there are no contradictions.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2013, 05:38:47 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?
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« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2013, 05:40:28 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.
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« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2013, 06:46:45 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

That is the central question, what does Holy Tradition say. It is my understanding the the doctrine of "There is no salvation outside the
 ( Orthodox) Catholic Church is well establish.. Just because this is a "Hard saying" is no excuse for leaving or changing it. That much is in scripture.

You are saved by The Church. From our perspective that does mean actual membership. For those cases where God saves people who are not members of his Church he still uses The Church as the vehicle of their salvation... Thinking about how that can be can make you head hurt, so I would suggest we just focus on what we know for sure and encourage people to actually, really, in fact Join The Church and become grafted onto God himself... The path is hard and the gate is narrow.   
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« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2013, 06:41:19 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.
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« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2013, 07:26:28 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I would say the damnation of most people is a possibility we have to entertain. I'm not sure we have to believe it as a matter of faith.
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« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2013, 07:28:05 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I would say the damnation of most people is a possibility we have to entertain. I'm not sure we have to believe it as a matter of faith.

Yes, but you worded it better than I did. Grin
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« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2013, 08:11:32 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



St. Clement of Alexandria and St. Gregory of Nyssa also held these views.....They were dismissed on the grounds that they were "errors of Charity".  St. Augustine of Hippo was against this thinking.  Our choices are real, and the Lord takes them seriously. 
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« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2013, 10:11:25 AM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
There are not 10,000 roads to God.  Without faith on Christ, a person will never find God.  I don't make the rules, I simply live by them.  The scholarly folks you speak of denied universal salvation for all.  That pretty much ends the debate, unless you belong to a different church.

EDIT:  there are no contradictions.

What if the quantifiers are contraindicated?
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« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2013, 10:13:43 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?
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« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2013, 10:33:30 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

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« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

Actually the Scriptures explicitly describe God (aka Jesus Christ) as a "lamb". Lambs aren't goats, ipso facto ergo sum, God's not a goat.

There. Solved it for you! Aren't you glad there was a legalistic Roman Catholic around to help out?
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