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Author Topic: Are any of you universalists?  (Read 2819 times) Average Rating: 0
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truthseeker32
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« on: June 07, 2013, 08:04:20 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 08:09:58 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 04:23:51 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 07:13:19 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 08:31:54 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 08:51:59 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 08:59:16 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



I really struggle giving up my ingrained belief that we will all achieve the most perfect of forms upon resurrection.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 09:21:35 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2013, 09:25:23 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2013, 09:30:06 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 09:56:56 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?

What is truth?

Really, if you think such subjects which people continue to do research on are so definitive (which I know you do given your take on nearly everything else) as to find the answer in a sentence or someone offering a sentence explanation, then your reductionism is greater than I thought.

There is a TON of context here, you could write books on it. People have.

Like I said, don't harsh on the "sola" and "fundies" if you approach is pretty much the same.

We could bring up first of all that this is in light of what the members of this council thought Origin's understanding was on apokatastasis, which seems doubtful they could have known as he seems conflicted or how I tend to read him, was a productive thinker with too much brain power and writing surface doing speculative work which got twisted by his "followers".

So, you have more than a few years between Origen and this council. And it is clear that apokatastasis from the writing of the NT to this council went through more than a few twists and turns, beginning to be a rather broad term and gradually made more precise, thus the precision throwing off the possible accuracy of reading what was written earlier.

So whose apokatastasis is being condemned here?

Given the surrounding context it is the apokatastasis of how the council understood Origen (which was a misunderstanding to be sure, but is of little matter here, since they condemned something nevertheless).

Then you have to ask what does the OP mean by universalism and is that universalism the same as the understanding of apokatastasis condemned in this text.

There are reasons people disagree here about this and again why people continue to research the matter.

To brush that off as a matter of simple fact smacks of solafundie reductionism.

Again, I really don't have a problem with this part, it is more the lack of perfect geometry in the resurrection I have a hard time swallowing.

In short, my point goes to your method not your conclusions. You are sometimes incorrect in the latter but often in the former.

If the OP wants an overview how members of the board understand this topic without one off quotes, I would suggest using the following google search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aorthodoxchristianity.net+apokatastasis

EDIT: To the OP, google for whatever reasons indexes not infrequently the "mobile" version of this forum before the same content in the format you are likely more used to. If you happen to see what looks like a "simpler" and less robust format, you stumbled across the mobile version of that content.

An example is this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14442.5;wap2

To "fix" the URL, just delete the ;wapNUMBER

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14442.5
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:01:42 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 10:10:20 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 10:16:00 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

No, I am labeling you and others like you who boil down complex matters to single out of context statements.

When that one woman comes back . . . Rachel is it? You know the Protestant who quotes Bible verses that prove you wrong?

Remember that Scripture is pretty "clear" on stuff as well. Or read what YiM has to say.

You all are using the method just relying on different text. And frankly, I don't care about this issue but you represent a long history of discussion in a neat sentence like that is the end of it.

That is not witnesses to the fullness of the faith. You could quote that anathema and add a link, but to imply or infer that this matter is as simple as you think it is and build the Church up from it, well I think you accuse others of that all the time.

Again, I offered the best answer to OP's question, I linked to every discussion where the a-word makes an appearance.

You would think if it were so simply the threads would not be so many nor so long, and we are talking about discussion among odox.

Have a nice day.

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 10:19:36 AM »

Well, to give the devil orthonorm his due, the OP did in fact not use the word "apokatastasis", and his understanding of what "universalism" is, by which it's clear he means "universal salvation", seems different from the view condemned by the Council. Origen appears to have taught that even the demons, who thoroughly rejected God's grace, will be saved by some irresistible act of God's mercy, but it's not exactly couched in terms of forcing these same demons to accept that grace. Perhaps there are other ways to conceptualize it, e.g. "Hell" is not permanent, and so the demons will cease to suffer, regardless of whether or not they repent and accept Divine Grace.

However, I don't think these other conceptualizations really affect the core issue, which is whether all will be saved. Maybe someone can now bring "River of Fire" into the discussion, although I see problems with that approach, too.

Regarding orthonorm's insistence that these issues have not been resolved, and are subject to continuing evaluation by researchers, this is in general a problematic approach to understanding the faith, at least for Orthodox believers. Since true doctrine is supposed to be immutable and revealed through the constant teaching of the Church, it is dangerous to think of it as some kind of currently hidden knowledge, awaiting discovery by academic historians and philosophers. Academics change their views about the past from year to year, but true doctrine is not supposed to change. It is also something which the Church is already supposed to know and to be able to teach to her followers, not something which the Church may perhaps know in the future, but not currently. We don't believe in gradual development of doctrine.

What the OP needs is a clear response outlining what the Church teaches on this matter. What he does not need is to be told, misleadingly, that the Church has no clue about this subject and that he needs to rely on the vagaries of secular scholarship in order to understand the issue.

And just to be clear, the Church does NOT teach as a matter of certainty that not all will be saved, although there are certainly many indications that this in fact what will happen (Christ spoke of both sheep and goats, remember). We may legitimately hope that all will be saved. But we have no right to believe that all will be saved, as the Church also does not teach, as a matter of certainty, that all WILL be saved. If you need a mathematical analogy, you can think of salvation as a probability distribution: the probability of all being saved is vanishingly low, but not zero.
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 10:35:51 AM »

Since true doctrine is supposed to be immutable and revealed through the constant teaching of the Church

This relies on your misunderstanding of the Church and revelation.

The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

So has the Church changed? Yes. Unless there is some weird Islamic-like notion I am unaware that since the beginning of time there has been some full account of everything and has remained hidden.

Good grief, doctrine altered within the pages of the NT.

This doesn't mean that somehow the Orthodox Church is going to end up preaching Jesus was married and had kids, but it does mean that doctrine has to be lived out within the Church within time. Otherwise, why all the apologies? They are not just repeating something over again, they working out the past in light of the arguments of their day.

The Church is very conservative, so I wouldn't worry too much about such stuff. After all, a lot of Christians have put the saints to death and torture for maintaining doctrine which we think seems so obvious and clearly historically sound, I don't think those who tortured and killed them agreed.

In any case, I don't think the a Hebrew or two every generation knew the punchline of their Scripture. Nor do I think "everything" is revealed. Is enough revealed, sure.

But if you are going to be intellectually honest, then one must state that research (revelation) continues and will continue to do so, some would say even in the age to come (another point of contention).

But thankfully, you could go to Liturgy, say your prays, give to poor, and be OK.

But if you are going to ask questions of theological nature which are likely not germane to nearly anyone's salvation at the moment, then be prepared for some confusion. Because it is confused.

/done
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 12:29:12 PM »

Quote
The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered once and for all unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

Fixed it for you.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2013, 03:00:14 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

So in 553 they knew...
As if we knew and are good and making factual statements about the year 1460... Especially about theology...

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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2013, 03:01:34 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?

What is truth?


Hmmm... now where have I heard that before?



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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2013, 03:06:10 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

Indeed. We can hope and we can pray.

As I have said before, God is much more severe and much more merciful than man can ever be.


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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2013, 04:34:23 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 04:37:54 PM by truthseeker32 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2013, 04:47:27 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

So in 553 they knew...
As if we knew and are good and making factual statements about the year 1460... Especially about theology...



You failed when you said "making factual statements...about theology." What are your opinions of hydrogen?
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2013, 04:48:12 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.

Who is the "emergent church" and why should anyone care?
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2013, 04:52:28 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

You've been here how long and still think you will get simple answers? And do you really think your question was simple? I mean REALLY? (First, you did not even bother to define what you meant by universalism, for starters.)

And who said hell was to keep people in line? Have you been reading the Marxist catechism?

"There are plenty of religions..." Yes, and they are all far short of truth and their gods are unable to save. Point?
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2013, 04:53:56 PM »

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

I agree. Not everyone needs fear of eternal damnation to seek to love God and neighbor.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2013, 05:09:04 PM »

Quote
The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered once and for all unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

Fixed it for you.

And thus begins the difference between the ontic and the ontological.
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 05:11:11 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.

Who is the "emergent church" and why should anyone care?

Are you playing dumb? If not, you should care if you like some laughs.
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2013, 05:11:47 PM »

(First, you did not even bother to define what you meant by universalism, for starters.)
False. In my original post I defined universalism as the belief that all would be saved. I left it open because I wished to include any form of universalism that would allow for the eventual reconciliation of all to God.

Quote
And who said hell was to keep people in line? Have you been reading the Marxist catechism?
It was not said explicitly, but saying that universalism leads to spiritual laziness seems to strongly imply the idea that without hell we have no reason to stay in line. Do you disagree?

Quote
"There are plenty of religions..." Yes, and they are all far short of truth and their gods are unable to save. Point?
I wasn't speaking to truth. I was speaking to the reality that religions do not need Hell to make people act well.
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2013, 06:05:03 PM »

Yes and no.

Rite now I'm focused on true Christianity. I've studied Buddhism a little.
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2013, 06:13:10 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved.
Hence the reason why no EOC should be a Universalist.

One can hope that all shall be saved, though.
Indeed, we must pray for it.
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2013, 06:14:02 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)


im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

As with any thread at oc.net, you will have an original post that asks a question.  There will then be 6-7 posts telling you why your question was worded incorrectly, then 9-10 posts of people disagreeing with those posts and vehemently arguing over issues that have nothing to do with the thread and eventually I show up and make a general, unhelpful comment or two.  So goes this thread.  Undecided

In my simple and feeble mind, I do not see how one could be a universalist as you define it and remain faithful to the teachings of the Church, so no, I am not a universalist.  We may hope that all will be saved, but we ought not say with confidence that everyone will.  I'm sure Orthonorm will now mock this post with some witty reparte.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2013, 08:41:32 PM »

im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?

I dunno. We'll see when the Apocalypse comes.
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2013, 08:54:36 PM »

im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?

I dunno. We'll see when the Apocalypse comes.
i dont want to see demons
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 09:06:59 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 09:12:26 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 09:22:00 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

I think it touches on the must vs can distinction, with the former implying an irresistable grace and the latter affirming synergism. He may not actually say it in such words, but that has always been my understanding for these quotes. Someone with the book would have to verify.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2013, 09:30:43 PM »

My recollection of reading the book is that he argues that to say "all must be saved" or "all will be saved" is to destroy free will because it does not allow someone to decide to be separated from God if he so chooses..
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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2013, 09:39:54 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Gee, sorry for throwing it out "without context." Here it the entire quote:

pg. 267

Quote
It is heretical to say that all  must be saved, for this is to deny free will;  but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. .. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2013, 09:44:38 PM »

I hope that everyone will come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and be saved.  I hope that all people reform their lives to those that are pleasing to God.

I know that this won't happen, so I hope.

I leave who is "saved" and not in God's hands, and don't have an opinion one way or another.
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2013, 10:25:02 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Gee, sorry for throwing it out "without context." Here it the entire quote:

pg. 267

Quote
It is heretical to say that all  must be saved, for this is to deny free will;  but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. .. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
thanks for the quote.

ok so whats in bold i have somewhat of a cotention with. i really dont like the rhetoric and pretenses that go along with free will.

for example there are too many christians that throw around free will whenever they want to punish someone. i dont think that is the correct approach in regards to crime and punishment.

someone born in a hellish environment may not have the free will to be a saint.

just saying. i dont really think free will holds up much under scrutiny and i neither believe in compatibilism either. however i am not a determinist nor an indeterminst.

free will and determinism is a false dichotomy, especially when human agents are faced to make a choice in the world we live in.

jesus emptied the tombs when he rose from the dead.

that included sinners.

i think talk of universalism kind of rears nihilism's ugly head here, and i am not entirely too sure how orthodoxy works out that problem. but it's not really an albatross either.

then theres some talk of going down a narrow path versus the one that is wide and leads to some sort of destruction.

its really a mess of seeming contradictions.

i believe all will be saved and every knee will bow before the lord.
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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2013, 11:08:18 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Your answer lies in the New Testament.  Crack it open some day.
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2013, 11:11:01 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Your answer lies in the New Testament.  Crack it open some day.
i was asking for bishop wares take on it

but thanks for your recommendation tho
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« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2013, 12:30:44 AM »



ok so whats in bold i have somewhat of a cotention with. i really dont like the rhetoric and pretenses that go along with free will.

for example there are too many christians that throw around free will whenever they want to punish someone. i dont think that is the correct approach in regards to crime and punishment.

someone born in a hellish environment may not have the free will to be a saint.

just saying. i dont really think free will holds up much under scrutiny and i neither believe in compatibilism either. however i am not a determinist nor an indeterminst.

free will and determinism is a false dichotomy, especially when human agents are faced to make a choice in the world we live in.

jesus emptied the tombs when he rose from the dead.

that included sinners.

i think talk of universalism kind of rears nihilism's ugly head here, and i am not entirely too sure how orthodoxy works out that problem. but it's not really an albatross either.

then theres some talk of going down a narrow path versus the one that is wide and leads to some sort of destruction.

its really a mess of seeming contradictions.

i believe all will be saved and every knee will bow before the lord.
Your statement really hits home for me. I have been wrestling with the concept of free will and choice as of late, and ideas like rejecting God or choosing Hell of our own free will seem absurd to me. Can one really freely choose what goes counter for their biological and psychological drive for perceived goods? It seems that such a decision would necessarily be the result of ignorance or psychosis.
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« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2013, 12:59:14 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.
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« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2013, 01:29:55 AM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?


I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
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« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2013, 01:52:29 AM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."

I'd point out here that there is not only a difference between 'must' and 'hope,' but between 'must' and 'will.'
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« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2013, 01:53:40 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.
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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2013, 01:58:31 AM »

Your statement really hits home for me. I have been wrestling with the concept of free will and choice as of late, and ideas like rejecting God or choosing Hell of our own free will seem absurd to me. Can one really freely choose what goes counter for their biological and psychological drive for perceived goods? It seems that such a decision would necessarily be the result of ignorance or psychosis.
yeah i dont like to get into reductionism anymore. its interesting to see the dialectics played out between the two (or the absurd methodologies theologians employ), but life is pretty much contradictory and constantly being moved/changed by opposites.

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions. it just screams of legalism, much of it commandeered from the bourgeois.

Legalism (theology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28theology%29

and really do you see here how much it atomizes humans here? (make note how we get individualism out of free will also, which is odd because we should be all like christ)

much of the protestant work ethic derives much from an idea of free will, but the roman catholics in the past had a much better way of dealing with work ethic and free will.

christians can be a disgusting lot, especially stewarded by terrible (literally) theologians behind the pulpit

also, its not a sin to be ignorant. arrogant, perhaps. actually that may require a larger penance.
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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2013, 02:01:43 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.
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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2013, 02:02:00 AM »

Seems like a weak man's philosophy to me. Why is it so hard to accept that some people will go to Hell? Christ made it very clear and constantly talked about it in His Gospels. I grew up my entire life hearing about Hell and punishment. It didn't screw me up or disturb me as much as it does so many of these wealthy, liberal upper-middle class, woe-is-me Liberaldox Larry "Christians"?
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« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2013, 02:04:38 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That's an argument from ignorance, dude. It kills me to lock wits with you because you are my friend, but I calls it like I see it. ultimately you are saying that since Christ is often confusing and His teachings are hard to understand, that universalism must be true or something along those lines. It's like when an Evangelical says God is real because there is "no evidence that He doesn't exist."
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« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2013, 02:11:39 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

it only took a cursory glance at what kierkergaard was writing of christ when i realized everybody else seemed so muddled

the big trip for conservatives like kerdy are the staunch commnual stuff christ instructed us to do.
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« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2013, 02:13:09 AM »

Why is it so hard to accept that some people will go to Hell?
I think the most obvious answer is because of love. If we care for our fellow human beings we should absolutely struggle with the idea of them being lost.

For a more philosophical answer to your question I would point to questions such as:

1. Do we actually have free will?

2. Can a person freely choose Hell?

3. What is the point of allowing someone to suffer eternally?

Christ clearly states in the NT that it would have been better if Judas had never been born because of his sins. If this is truly the case then why didn't God destroy Judas? Shouldn't God, being goodness, do what is best?
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« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2013, 02:19:53 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
how can you actively reject something that you may not put any thought into?

isnt rejecting god some sort of a spiritual problem?

here we go with adhereing to some sort of strict disciplanarian action to thwart some kind of "sin". you are too legalistic.

really whats the damnation here?
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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2013, 02:20:22 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2013, 02:21:40 AM »

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
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« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2013, 02:22:42 AM »

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
dispute from whom and of what quality are the disputes?

atleast the flat earther who posted here was far more coherent than the creationists i faced.

why is evolution such a stumbling block for people i will never understand.
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« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2013, 02:26:54 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
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« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2013, 02:29:08 AM »

That doesn't really mean anything. There is a lot of dispute about evolution, too.
dispute from whom and of what quality are the disputes?

atleast the flat earther who posted here was far more coherent than the creationists i faced.

why is evolution such a stumbling block for people i will never understand.

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
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« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2013, 02:37:55 AM »

im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
im all for throwing out the silly notion of being held responsible for our actions.

Are you being serious?
again you have too much faith in the agency of humans.

people born in hell are going to be _______

for every exception you have multitudes of people getting dragged down by their environment. what sort of free will is that
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« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2013, 02:39:23 AM »

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
no but your little justice scales should balance out the better argument here
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« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2013, 02:44:27 AM »

again you have too much faith in the agency of humans.

people born in hell are going to be _______

for every exception you have multitudes of people getting dragged down by their environment. what sort of free will is that

Well, free will and synergy are part of every Orthodox description of man's salvation that I've ever heard.
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« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2013, 03:00:38 AM »

In my more religious moments, yes.
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« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2013, 03:07:17 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
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« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2013, 03:12:26 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
look at his avatar

its gotta be black and white.

william didnt like the new math very much
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2013, 03:13:15 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
look at his avatar

its gotta be black and white.

william didnt like the new math very much

What new math?
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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2013, 05:49:30 AM »

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.

That's an argument from ignorance, dude. It kills me to lock wits with you because you are my friend, but I calls it like I see it. ultimately you are saying that since Christ is often confusing and His teachings are hard to understand, that universalism must be true or something along those lines. It's like when an Evangelical says God is real because there is "no evidence that He doesn't exist."

I encourage you to read the post I was replying to.
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2013, 06:53:39 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

That is why I don’t reply to philosophical ideas from people when the truth is clear.  When one of the first things spoken in reply is “What is truth”, the discussion has ended.

Is Christ clear?  It seems like there's been an awful lot of dispute about Him if He (either His teachings or His person) are clear.
Jesus was clear, it's people who muddle the teachings.
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2013, 06:54:09 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.
You are welcome.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2013, 06:55:40 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
how can you actively reject something that you may not put any thought into?

isnt rejecting god some sort of a spiritual problem?

here we go with adhereing to some sort of strict disciplanarian action to thwart some kind of "sin". you are too legalistic.

really whats the damnation here?

What are you talking about?
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2013, 06:57:30 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2013, 06:58:23 AM »

I am just pointing out that the existence of disputes does not validate the opposing arguments.
no but your little justice scales should balance out the better argument here
Better argument according to what standard?
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2013, 06:59:43 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
Granting that what you say is true, I would merely reject that what the Bible says on the matter.
Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2013, 01:20:28 PM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2013, 01:26:34 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2013, 01:33:42 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2013, 05:22:49 PM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
There are not 10,000 roads to God.  Without faith on Christ, a person will never find God.  I don't make the rules, I simply live by them.  The scholarly folks you speak of denied universal salvation for all.  That pretty much ends the debate, unless you belong to a different church.

EDIT:  there are no contradictions.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2013, 05:38:47 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?
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« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2013, 05:40:28 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.
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« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2013, 06:46:45 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

That is the central question, what does Holy Tradition say. It is my understanding the the doctrine of "There is no salvation outside the
 ( Orthodox) Catholic Church is well establish.. Just because this is a "Hard saying" is no excuse for leaving or changing it. That much is in scripture.

You are saved by The Church. From our perspective that does mean actual membership. For those cases where God saves people who are not members of his Church he still uses The Church as the vehicle of their salvation... Thinking about how that can be can make you head hurt, so I would suggest we just focus on what we know for sure and encourage people to actually, really, in fact Join The Church and become grafted onto God himself... The path is hard and the gate is narrow.   
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« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2013, 06:41:19 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.
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« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2013, 07:26:28 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I would say the damnation of most people is a possibility we have to entertain. I'm not sure we have to believe it as a matter of faith.
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« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2013, 07:28:05 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I would say the damnation of most people is a possibility we have to entertain. I'm not sure we have to believe it as a matter of faith.

Yes, but you worded it better than I did. Grin
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« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2013, 08:11:32 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



St. Clement of Alexandria and St. Gregory of Nyssa also held these views.....They were dismissed on the grounds that they were "errors of Charity".  St. Augustine of Hippo was against this thinking.  Our choices are real, and the Lord takes them seriously. 
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« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2013, 10:11:25 AM »

Cherry picking never works in the end.  One can hope for someone's salvation realizing it may not happen.
Call it cherry picking if you like. I call it reading the bible as the majority of well educated biblical scholars and many church fathers read the Bible, meaning there are contradictions, ambiguities, allegories, and riddles that prevent one clear and simple interpretation. Reading the Bible as you seem to recommend leads to various interpretations and various denominations. Good thing there is a Church that interprets the text. Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation and suggests that most are damned.

I recommend this essay where Met. Hilarion discusses St. Isaac's thought on God's love: http://www.worldapostoliccongressonmercy.org/IMG/pdf/Bishop_Hilarion_Alfeyev.pdf
There are not 10,000 roads to God.  Without faith on Christ, a person will never find God.  I don't make the rules, I simply live by them.  The scholarly folks you speak of denied universal salvation for all.  That pretty much ends the debate, unless you belong to a different church.

EDIT:  there are no contradictions.

What if the quantifiers are contraindicated?
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« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2013, 10:13:43 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?
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« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2013, 10:33:30 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

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« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

Actually the Scriptures explicitly describe God (aka Jesus Christ) as a "lamb". Lambs aren't goats, ipso facto ergo sum, God's not a goat.

There. Solved it for you! Aren't you glad there was a legalistic Roman Catholic around to help out?
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« Reply #90 on: June 10, 2013, 10:03:15 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)


im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?


There is no eradication for demons and evil men, but eternal punishment.
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« Reply #91 on: June 10, 2013, 10:09:15 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
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« Reply #92 on: June 10, 2013, 10:11:13 PM »

Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

The resurrection of the body has always been a central tenant of Christianity. Nothing about spheres.
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« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2013, 10:47:16 PM »

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

The resurrection of the body has always been a central tenant of Christianity. Nothing about spheres.

1 Corinthians 15:32-44.
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« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2013, 06:15:09 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
I invite you to read my post again.  There you will find what you seek.
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« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2013, 10:31:51 AM »

quote author=theistgal link=topic=51856.msg936133#msg936133 date=1370876174]
Otherwise we would be stuck with a New Testament that teaches universal reconciliation

 Huh
If we read the NT verbatim we find verses that both suggest universal reconciliation and verses that suggest the opposite. My point is that the NT alone does not give us a clear message on the matter.

Do list passages supporting universalism.

Yes, this seems almost impossible.

But show me where in the Bible where it says we WON'T resurrect as spheres?

mmmmmmmmmmm.. Specious argument. The scriptures don't explicitly say that God is not a goat. But we cant therefore conclude that God might be a goat just because Scripture doesn't directly address the issue Smiley

Actually the Scriptures explicitly describe God (aka Jesus Christ) as a "lamb". Lambs aren't goats, ipso facto ergo sum, God's not a goat.

There. Solved it for you! Aren't you glad there was a legalistic Roman Catholic around to help out?
[/quote]

References to Jesus as the Lamb of God are a metaphor for the sacrificial paschal lamb. You know that, right?

Never the less, just because the scriptures dont say that we will not resurrect as "spheres", does not indicate that it is a possibility
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 10:33:14 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2013, 11:57:33 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2013, 11:59:52 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Of course not. Like all sinful passions, humor is overcome gradually by prayer and ascesis.
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« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2013, 12:01:54 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Of course not. Like all sinful passions, humor is overcome gradually by prayer and ascesis.

 laugh

Now that is funny!  Oops, I must go prostrate.
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« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2013, 12:07:38 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

You don't know the most awesome reply oc.net ever gave to this question posed by none other than myself?
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« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

You don't know the most awesome reply oc.net ever gave to this question posed by none other than myself?

Did you give up your sense of humor in solidarity with Conan or out of Orthodox romanticism?

There are only tears in holy Russia.
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« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2013, 12:21:04 PM »

BWUAHAHAHA!!! 

Crap, more prostrations.  Angry


that was a really good response, actually
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« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2013, 01:29:51 PM »

I have to think that betting on universalism (rather than hoping for it) is spiritual foolishness.
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« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2013, 05:20:19 PM »

I have to think that betting on universalism (rather than hoping for it) is spiritual foolishness.

Be careful.  You may be accused of being hard hearted.
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« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2013, 07:52:22 PM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

I know exactly what you mean and just made a similar comment in another thread!!  police
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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »

I don't think I have ever been on a forum where people have been less capable of understanding humor than on oc.net.  Do Orthodox Christians lose there sense of humor upon chrismation?  Cheesy

Some things are so funny that you lose your sense of humor after that. Like being so scared of something nothing scares you after that.

Here is more info from South Park on how that works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGDk1DS_Zpg 
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« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2013, 02:26:50 AM »

The idea is rediculous.
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« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2013, 08:57:00 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
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« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2013, 07:57:05 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 
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« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2013, 09:51:34 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
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« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2013, 10:01:43 PM »

So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
The context of this verse is not who is going to heaven and who isn't. Christ is speaking about our actions and the way we live. I think Christ could have instead said "it is easier to do evil than good." Further, how much is "few" to God? 5? 10? 1,000,000? My guess is anything short of everyone is few to God because he wants us all with Him.

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
If this were true, it would make God a liar and unworthy of worship.
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« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2013, 10:39:46 PM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 

So it matters not who was speaking. Okay. Whatever.
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« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2013, 10:45:37 PM »

So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
The context of this verse is not who is going to heaven and who isn't. Christ is speaking about our actions and the way we live. I think Christ could have instead said "it is easier to do evil than good." Further, how much is "few" to God? 5? 10? 1,000,000? My guess is anything short of everyone is few to God because he wants us all with Him.

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

When did you cook this up? Earlier you just said you rejected the Bible in this area.

I know it's kind of a popular opinion among the netodox, but the whole "the church interprets the scripture" line does not mean "we are free to reject parts of the Bible we don't like as contradictory."
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« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2013, 01:22:40 AM »

I would say no because most probably will not be saved.  More people reject God than accept Him.  We can hope they will at some point change their views before it is too late, but "all" or "most" would be foolish to believe.  All are possible, but we are taught all will not be saved.  I would even go so far as to say we are taught most will not be saved.
This is one of the most gut wrenching and horrific statements I have ever read. Good thing Orthodoxy doesn't claim most are damned as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's in the Bible.
He just is t looking at it from the proper perspective.  Most people are not damned.  Most people damn themselves.

What is your support for this assertion?

Holy Scripture.  Start with Genesis.

Ah, so it's just your opinion. Okay. Saying most will be lost is as presumptuous as saying most will be saved. You do no know the mind of God.
So what about that "wide is the road" thing? Was that presumptuous?
There are a lot of things people either seem to forget or ignore. 

So it matters not who was speaking. Okay. Whatever.
I simply don't share your opinion.
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« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2013, 03:01:23 PM »

When did you cook this up? Earlier you just said you rejected the Bible in this area.

I know it's kind of a popular opinion among the netodox, but the whole "the church interprets the scripture" line does not mean "we are free to reject parts of the Bible we don't like as contradictory."
I would revise my statement and say that I reject the weight certain parts of the Bible are given, and certain interpretations of verses. I think Matthew 7:13-14 are a good example:

"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

These verses alone are ambiguous enough that they could be interpreted a number of ways. For example, when Jesus says "... broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction" what does destruction mean? Complete annihilation? A spiritual death where the self never completely disappears?

As I said before, I think these verses point more to an individual's condition based upon whether they align themselves with goodness, which is life, or evil, which is destruction. We can see everyday how evil choices result in a destructive life. I don't think these verses can be used to demonstrate the population statistics of heaven and hell.

I would also argue that if God knows from eternity that the result of his creation will be mostly death and suffering (assuming most people end up in Hell) then God has chosen to carry something out that is more costly than it is beneficial. Can we really call a creation that results in mostly death and suffering a good thing?
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« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2013, 10:02:32 AM »

I simply don't share your opinion.

I just read an interesting article (sorry I don't have a link) basically to the effect that one human saying they don't share another human's opinion may trigger the "fight or flight" reflex, the same way an actual physical threat would do.

Which would seem to explain 99.9% of most internet boards ...  Grin
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« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2013, 12:00:26 AM »

I simply don't share your opinion.

I just read an interesting article (sorry I don't have a link) basically to the effect that one human saying they don't share another human's opinion may trigger the "fight or flight" reflex, the same way an actual physical threat would do.

Which would seem to explain 99.9% of most internet boards ...  Grin
That is interesting.  My experience has shown once this is said, things usually calm down.  But in this instance, I had a specific reason for using those words.
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« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.

I am a Universalist but not for either of your reasons.

My view is that God is not a backslider.

God would have begun as master or owner of all that could possibly be. He was all alone. Everything and everyone thus emanated from him and all will always be his. Be it you and I or even Satan.

He can never lose anyone or anything otherwise he would be backsliding from master/owner of all to master/owner of just some. That possibility is ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

Regards
DL
If this were true, it would make God a liar and unworthy of worship.

Welllll, scriptures do say that God is a liar.


Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

Regards
DL
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