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Author Topic: Are any of you universalists?  (Read 2559 times) Average Rating: 0
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truthseeker32
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« on: June 07, 2013, 08:04:20 PM »

Just curious to see how many people here are universalists, meaning you believe that somehow, some way, everyone will be saved either because everyone will choose God of their own free wil, or everyone will be irresistibly compelled to accept God's grace.
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 08:09:58 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 04:23:51 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 07:13:19 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 08:31:54 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 08:51:59 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 08:59:16 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



I really struggle giving up my ingrained belief that we will all achieve the most perfect of forms upon resurrection.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 09:21:35 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2013, 09:25:23 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2013, 09:30:06 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 09:56:56 AM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?

What is truth?

Really, if you think such subjects which people continue to do research on are so definitive (which I know you do given your take on nearly everything else) as to find the answer in a sentence or someone offering a sentence explanation, then your reductionism is greater than I thought.

There is a TON of context here, you could write books on it. People have.

Like I said, don't harsh on the "sola" and "fundies" if you approach is pretty much the same.

We could bring up first of all that this is in light of what the members of this council thought Origin's understanding was on apokatastasis, which seems doubtful they could have known as he seems conflicted or how I tend to read him, was a productive thinker with too much brain power and writing surface doing speculative work which got twisted by his "followers".

So, you have more than a few years between Origen and this council. And it is clear that apokatastasis from the writing of the NT to this council went through more than a few twists and turns, beginning to be a rather broad term and gradually made more precise, thus the precision throwing off the possible accuracy of reading what was written earlier.

So whose apokatastasis is being condemned here?

Given the surrounding context it is the apokatastasis of how the council understood Origen (which was a misunderstanding to be sure, but is of little matter here, since they condemned something nevertheless).

Then you have to ask what does the OP mean by universalism and is that universalism the same as the understanding of apokatastasis condemned in this text.

There are reasons people disagree here about this and again why people continue to research the matter.

To brush that off as a matter of simple fact smacks of solafundie reductionism.

Again, I really don't have a problem with this part, it is more the lack of perfect geometry in the resurrection I have a hard time swallowing.

In short, my point goes to your method not your conclusions. You are sometimes incorrect in the latter but often in the former.

If the OP wants an overview how members of the board understand this topic without one off quotes, I would suggest using the following google search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aorthodoxchristianity.net+apokatastasis

EDIT: To the OP, google for whatever reasons indexes not infrequently the "mobile" version of this forum before the same content in the format you are likely more used to. If you happen to see what looks like a "simpler" and less robust format, you stumbled across the mobile version of that content.

An example is this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14442.5;wap2

To "fix" the URL, just delete the ;wapNUMBER

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=14442.5
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:01:42 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 10:10:20 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 10:16:00 AM »

Statements of anathema, and one as clear as that, do not need philosophical analysis to get at their meaning. Origen might have been a "great thinker", but the Church and her Fathers have decreed that much of what he stood for deserved censure, and, in some cases, the strongest repudiation in the form of an anathema.

You might not like it, Orthonorm, but the Church has spoken, and spoken clearly on this matter. Labeling folks as fundies and literalists just because they use the established traditions of the Church to counter your pet philosophies and musings is just a cheap and lazy swipe.

No, I am labeling you and others like you who boil down complex matters to single out of context statements.

When that one woman comes back . . . Rachel is it? You know the Protestant who quotes Bible verses that prove you wrong?

Remember that Scripture is pretty "clear" on stuff as well. Or read what YiM has to say.

You all are using the method just relying on different text. And frankly, I don't care about this issue but you represent a long history of discussion in a neat sentence like that is the end of it.

That is not witnesses to the fullness of the faith. You could quote that anathema and add a link, but to imply or infer that this matter is as simple as you think it is and build the Church up from it, well I think you accuse others of that all the time.

Again, I offered the best answer to OP's question, I linked to every discussion where the a-word makes an appearance.

You would think if it were so simply the threads would not be so many nor so long, and we are talking about discussion among odox.

Have a nice day.

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 10:19:36 AM »

Well, to give the devil orthonorm his due, the OP did in fact not use the word "apokatastasis", and his understanding of what "universalism" is, by which it's clear he means "universal salvation", seems different from the view condemned by the Council. Origen appears to have taught that even the demons, who thoroughly rejected God's grace, will be saved by some irresistible act of God's mercy, but it's not exactly couched in terms of forcing these same demons to accept that grace. Perhaps there are other ways to conceptualize it, e.g. "Hell" is not permanent, and so the demons will cease to suffer, regardless of whether or not they repent and accept Divine Grace.

However, I don't think these other conceptualizations really affect the core issue, which is whether all will be saved. Maybe someone can now bring "River of Fire" into the discussion, although I see problems with that approach, too.

Regarding orthonorm's insistence that these issues have not been resolved, and are subject to continuing evaluation by researchers, this is in general a problematic approach to understanding the faith, at least for Orthodox believers. Since true doctrine is supposed to be immutable and revealed through the constant teaching of the Church, it is dangerous to think of it as some kind of currently hidden knowledge, awaiting discovery by academic historians and philosophers. Academics change their views about the past from year to year, but true doctrine is not supposed to change. It is also something which the Church is already supposed to know and to be able to teach to her followers, not something which the Church may perhaps know in the future, but not currently. We don't believe in gradual development of doctrine.

What the OP needs is a clear response outlining what the Church teaches on this matter. What he does not need is to be told, misleadingly, that the Church has no clue about this subject and that he needs to rely on the vagaries of secular scholarship in order to understand the issue.

And just to be clear, the Church does NOT teach as a matter of certainty that not all will be saved, although there are certainly many indications that this in fact what will happen (Christ spoke of both sheep and goats, remember). We may legitimately hope that all will be saved. But we have no right to believe that all will be saved, as the Church also does not teach, as a matter of certainty, that all WILL be saved. If you need a mathematical analogy, you can think of salvation as a probability distribution: the probability of all being saved is vanishingly low, but not zero.
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 10:35:51 AM »

Since true doctrine is supposed to be immutable and revealed through the constant teaching of the Church

This relies on your misunderstanding of the Church and revelation.

The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

So has the Church changed? Yes. Unless there is some weird Islamic-like notion I am unaware that since the beginning of time there has been some full account of everything and has remained hidden.

Good grief, doctrine altered within the pages of the NT.

This doesn't mean that somehow the Orthodox Church is going to end up preaching Jesus was married and had kids, but it does mean that doctrine has to be lived out within the Church within time. Otherwise, why all the apologies? They are not just repeating something over again, they working out the past in light of the arguments of their day.

The Church is very conservative, so I wouldn't worry too much about such stuff. After all, a lot of Christians have put the saints to death and torture for maintaining doctrine which we think seems so obvious and clearly historically sound, I don't think those who tortured and killed them agreed.

In any case, I don't think the a Hebrew or two every generation knew the punchline of their Scripture. Nor do I think "everything" is revealed. Is enough revealed, sure.

But if you are going to be intellectually honest, then one must state that research (revelation) continues and will continue to do so, some would say even in the age to come (another point of contention).

But thankfully, you could go to Liturgy, say your prays, give to poor, and be OK.

But if you are going to ask questions of theological nature which are likely not germane to nearly anyone's salvation at the moment, then be prepared for some confusion. Because it is confused.

/done
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 12:29:12 PM »

Quote
The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered once and for all unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

Fixed it for you.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2013, 03:00:14 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

So in 553 they knew...
As if we knew and are good and making factual statements about the year 1460... Especially about theology...

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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2013, 03:01:34 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)



Thanks, LBK. It looks like you're wrong, JamesRottnek.

What sola / literalist are folks around here again?

Verse proofing odox style.

OK then, Orthonorm, what's the true meaning of this statement of anathema?

What is truth?


Hmmm... now where have I heard that before?



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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2013, 03:06:10 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

Indeed. We can hope and we can pray.

As I have said before, God is much more severe and much more merciful than man can ever be.


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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2013, 04:34:23 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2013, 04:47:27 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

So in 553 they knew...
As if we knew and are good and making factual statements about the year 1460... Especially about theology...



You failed when you said "making factual statements...about theology." What are your opinions of hydrogen?
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2013, 04:48:12 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.

Who is the "emergent church" and why should anyone care?
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2013, 04:52:28 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

You've been here how long and still think you will get simple answers? And do you really think your question was simple? I mean REALLY? (First, you did not even bother to define what you meant by universalism, for starters.)

And who said hell was to keep people in line? Have you been reading the Marxist catechism?

"There are plenty of religions..." Yes, and they are all far short of truth and their gods are unable to save. Point?
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2013, 04:53:56 PM »

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

I agree. Not everyone needs fear of eternal damnation to seek to love God and neighbor.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2013, 05:09:04 PM »

Quote
The Church is lived out in time from the beginning of the created order till the ages beyond ages, hence revelation. It is an incarnational approach to truth. It is a faith delivered once and for all unto the saints. Have all the saints lived? No.

Fixed it for you.

And thus begins the difference between the ontic and the ontological.
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 05:11:11 PM »

By universalists do you mean universalists such as the emergent church?  They even sometimes use EO icons.

Who is the "emergent church" and why should anyone care?

Are you playing dumb? If not, you should care if you like some laughs.
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2013, 05:11:47 PM »

(First, you did not even bother to define what you meant by universalism, for starters.)
False. In my original post I defined universalism as the belief that all would be saved. I left it open because I wished to include any form of universalism that would allow for the eventual reconciliation of all to God.

Quote
And who said hell was to keep people in line? Have you been reading the Marxist catechism?
It was not said explicitly, but saying that universalism leads to spiritual laziness seems to strongly imply the idea that without hell we have no reason to stay in line. Do you disagree?

Quote
"There are plenty of religions..." Yes, and they are all far short of truth and their gods are unable to save. Point?
I wasn't speaking to truth. I was speaking to the reality that religions do not need Hell to make people act well.
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2013, 06:05:03 PM »

Yes and no.

Rite now I'm focused on true Christianity. I've studied Buddhism a little.
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2013, 06:13:10 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved.
Hence the reason why no EOC should be a Universalist.

One can hope that all shall be saved, though.
Indeed, we must pray for it.
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2013, 06:14:02 PM »

The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned the belief that all will be saved. One can hope that all shall be saved, though.

No.  Just no.

"No" what? No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing? Or no, the Fifth Ecumenical Council was wrong?

But in answer to the OP, it is a heresy to believe that all will be saved. We don't know who will be saved in the end and who won't, except for the relatively small number of saints who have been revealed to the Church. We also know that those who die outside the Church won't be saved immediately, i.e. their souls can't go to Paradise before the Last Judgment, though we don't know how they will be judged then. Faith can only cover certainties. As Cyrillic notes, however, we can certainly hope that all will be saved in the end, since hope covers that which we are not certain about.

No, the Fifth Ecumenical Council said no such thing.  We've been over this a thousand times on the forum.

From the Council:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis ) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema. (one of the anathemas against Origen)


im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »

All I asked is if any of you are universalists. The answer can be a simple "I am a universalist." I didn't ask "is it okay to be a universalist?"

Since we are on the topic though, it seems that what is forbidden is believing that all will definitely be saved. I see a difference between believing everyone will definitely be saved and everyone will probably be saved. Would the latter be within the real of orthodoxy, seeing as it is not a definitive claim?

Universal Salvation idea's promote spiritual laziness. So as Bishop Ware has written, even if it were True we would not teach it.
Only if it is "no consequences" universalism. There are universalists like George MacDonald who believed that eventually all would be saved, but people would still suffer as a consequence of their sin and rebellion against God. If the belief is that eventually all will be saved, but you will still have to answer for your sins, then there remains a deterrent to spiritual laziness.

Further, I don't buy the "we need Hell to keep people in line" argument. There are plenty of religions out there experiencing growth or at least relative stability that deny an eternal Hell.

As with any thread at oc.net, you will have an original post that asks a question.  There will then be 6-7 posts telling you why your question was worded incorrectly, then 9-10 posts of people disagreeing with those posts and vehemently arguing over issues that have nothing to do with the thread and eventually I show up and make a general, unhelpful comment or two.  So goes this thread.  Undecided

In my simple and feeble mind, I do not see how one could be a universalist as you define it and remain faithful to the teachings of the Church, so no, I am not a universalist.  We may hope that all will be saved, but we ought not say with confidence that everyone will.  I'm sure Orthonorm will now mock this post with some witty reparte.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2013, 08:41:32 PM »

im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?

I dunno. We'll see when the Apocalypse comes.
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2013, 08:54:36 PM »

im just curious here, but won't demons be sort of eradicated after the resurrection and final judgement?

I dunno. We'll see when the Apocalypse comes.
i dont want to see demons
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 09:06:59 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 09:12:26 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 09:22:00 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

I think it touches on the must vs can distinction, with the former implying an irresistable grace and the latter affirming synergism. He may not actually say it in such words, but that has always been my understanding for these quotes. Someone with the book would have to verify.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2013, 09:30:43 PM »

My recollection of reading the book is that he argues that to say "all must be saved" or "all will be saved" is to destroy free will because it does not allow someone to decide to be separated from God if he so chooses..
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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2013, 09:39:54 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Gee, sorry for throwing it out "without context." Here it the entire quote:

pg. 267

Quote
It is heretical to say that all  must be saved, for this is to deny free will;  but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. .. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2013, 09:44:38 PM »

I hope that everyone will come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and be saved.  I hope that all people reform their lives to those that are pleasing to God.

I know that this won't happen, so I hope.

I leave who is "saved" and not in God's hands, and don't have an opinion one way or another.
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2013, 10:25:02 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Gee, sorry for throwing it out "without context." Here it the entire quote:

pg. 267

Quote
It is heretical to say that all  must be saved, for this is to deny free will;  but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. .. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
thanks for the quote.

ok so whats in bold i have somewhat of a cotention with. i really dont like the rhetoric and pretenses that go along with free will.

for example there are too many christians that throw around free will whenever they want to punish someone. i dont think that is the correct approach in regards to crime and punishment.

someone born in a hellish environment may not have the free will to be a saint.

just saying. i dont really think free will holds up much under scrutiny and i neither believe in compatibilism either. however i am not a determinist nor an indeterminst.

free will and determinism is a false dichotomy, especially when human agents are faced to make a choice in the world we live in.

jesus emptied the tombs when he rose from the dead.

that included sinners.

i think talk of universalism kind of rears nihilism's ugly head here, and i am not entirely too sure how orthodoxy works out that problem. but it's not really an albatross either.

then theres some talk of going down a narrow path versus the one that is wide and leads to some sort of destruction.

its really a mess of seeming contradictions.

i believe all will be saved and every knee will bow before the lord.
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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2013, 11:08:18 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Your answer lies in the New Testament.  Crack it open some day.
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2013, 11:11:01 PM »

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that in "The Orthodox Church" Bishop Ware said something along the lines of "We cannot believe that all must be saved, but we can hope that they will be."
does he explain why they cannot be saved?

im really tired of seeing a bunch of random quotes thrown out here with neither context nor content backing it up.

Your answer lies in the New Testament.  Crack it open some day.
i was asking for bishop wares take on it

but thanks for your recommendation tho
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« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2013, 12:30:44 AM »



ok so whats in bold i have somewhat of a cotention with. i really dont like the rhetoric and pretenses that go along with free will.

for example there are too many christians that throw around free will whenever they want to punish someone. i dont think that is the correct approach in regards to crime and punishment.

someone born in a hellish environment may not have the free will to be a saint.

just saying. i dont really think free will holds up much under scrutiny and i neither believe in compatibilism either. however i am not a determinist nor an indeterminst.

free will and determinism is a false dichotomy, especially when human agents are faced to make a choice in the world we live in.

jesus emptied the tombs when he rose from the dead.

that included sinners.

i think talk of universalism kind of rears nihilism's ugly head here, and i am not entirely too sure how orthodoxy works out that problem. but it's not really an albatross either.

then theres some talk of going down a narrow path versus the one that is wide and leads to some sort of destruction.

its really a mess of seeming contradictions.

i believe all will be saved and every knee will bow before the lord.
Your statement really hits home for me. I have been wrestling with the concept of free will and choice as of late, and ideas like rejecting God or choosing Hell of our own free will seem absurd to me. Can one really freely choose what goes counter for their biological and psychological drive for perceived goods? It seems that such a decision would necessarily be the result of ignorance or psychosis.
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