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Author Topic: Married men ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests?  (Read 2593 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 04, 2013, 05:15:11 PM »

Does anyone know of any married men who are or will be ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests in North America? I don't want specific names or locations, because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with Rome. However, I know of one such person, and I am curious to know if this phenomenon is spreading.

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 06:02:37 PM »

Does anyone know of any married men who are or will be ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests in North America? I don't want specific names or locations, because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with Rome. However, I know of one such person, and I am curious to know if this phenomenon is spreading.

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Yes.
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 08:34:37 AM »

Does anyone know of any married men who are or will be ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests in North America? I don't want specific names or locations, because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with Rome. However, I know of one such person, and I am curious to know if this phenomenon is spreading.

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Yes.

When did Rome lift this restriction?  I know that in the old world they are allowed to be ordained but here is a differenct matter...
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 09:50:16 AM »

Does anyone know of any married men who are or will be ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests in North America? I don't want specific names or locations, because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with Rome. However, I know of one such person, and I am curious to know if this phenomenon is spreading.

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Yes.

When did Rome lift this restriction?  I know that in the old world they are allowed to be ordained but here is a differenct matter...

From what I understand it's technically still in place but some Byzantine rite bishops in America are just ignoring it, kind of an ecclesiastical "come at me, bro!"
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 10:08:13 AM »

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 10:23:03 AM »

...kind of an ecclesiastical "come at me, bro!"

Smiley

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 10:29:15 AM »

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

I wasn't suggesting they should. I asked a question.
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 10:34:35 AM »

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?

Perhaps because they are following the original rules as defined in the treaties that were signed when the Byzantine/Greek Catholics entered into union with Rome?   There was a treaty signed at Uzhorod and everything was just fine until they started immigrating to America and upset the Roman Catholics with their married clergy.  It may not be they are disobeying the Pope but following the conditions signed in a legal document that said they had the right to  their traditions and to their married clergy.
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 10:47:23 AM »

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 12:29:39 PM »

I wasn't suggesting they should. I asked a question.

I know, forgive me...mine was a rhetorical question. 

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.

I don't know if Catholics even define the Pope as a "universal bishop".  Certainly, what they teach on universal, ordinary, immediate jurisdiction leads to that conclusion, but I think they still shy away from such an idea for the sake of what they teach about the episcopate in general.  Whatever the case, it doesn't change my point: no one need obey an illegitimate command, no matter how senior-ranking the authority is.  It's not like the Pope is a god.*



*It's not unheard of for some Indian Catholics to refer to the Pope as something which roughly translates into English as "our visible God on earth".  I've certainly heard it more than I'm comfortable admitting.   
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 01:45:51 PM »

no one need obey an illegitimate command, no matter how senior-ranking the authority is. 

I wholeheartedly agree with that but I'm an Orthodox and not Catholic. It's nice that Papist is taking Orthodox approach on this but I wonder how he reconciles the idea with Vatican I.
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 02:36:46 PM »

It would be interesting to hear his take, yes.  But I'm not sure even Catholics would interpret Vatican I to mean that the Pope can command something illegitimate and expect obedience because of his authority (even without Vatican II to "balance" things out).  I don't think Vatican I says a square is a circle when the Pope says so because the Pope says so.  It may say a lot of outrageous stuff, but surely even that council has limits.

 
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?
Yes the Pope has a universal jursidiction over the whole Church, but I don't think that this means the Pope can or should command anything he wants. If he commanded Catholics to start punching eachother in the face, we could say, "That's nice Holy Father, but no." His authority simply doesn't extend to that area. In an analogous way, I don't think that the Pope can or should be able to abolish legitimate Byzantine traditions. Well, to be honest, I don't know if this a matter of "can" or "should". In either case, I would like to see the Byzantine Churches to be truly Byzantine.
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.
I don't know of any Catholic document that refers to the Holy Father as "universal bishop." Can you point one out?
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Sorry to derail the thread but I find this kind of suprising considering the universal jurisdiction and all that stuff. So you think that Eastern Catholics have right to disobey the pope?

Perhaps because they are following the original rules as defined in the treaties that were signed when the Byzantine/Greek Catholics entered into union with Rome?   There was a treaty signed at Uzhorod and everything was just fine until they started immigrating to America and upset the Roman Catholics with their married clergy.  It may not be they are disobeying the Pope but following the conditions signed in a legal document that said they had the right to  their traditions and to their married clergy.
Perhaps. I don't know of anyone ever stating that the conditions of the unions are now void.
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

  Whatever the case, it doesn't change my point: no one need obey an illegitimate command, no matter how senior-ranking the authority is.  It's not like the Pope is a god. 
I think this is the point I am trying to make. Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

I think the Byzantines are receiving conflicting messages. On the one hand the Second Vatican Council calls on Eastern Catholics to return to their roots. On the other hand, there is a Vatican policy in place about not ordaining married clergy in North America. One might argue that the command of what Catholics consider an Ecumenical Council, carries more weight than some Vatican pastoral policy. But that's just me.
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 02:48:59 PM »

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.
I don't know of any Catholic document that refers to the Holy Father as "universal bishop." Can you point one out?

Pastor aeternus, chapter 3, point 2.
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2013, 03:22:34 PM »

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.
I don't know of any Catholic document that refers to the Holy Father as "universal bishop." Can you point one out?

Pastor aeternus, chapter 3, point 2.


Now that's an eye opener..........pretty much sums it up...
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2013, 03:40:15 PM »

I don't know of any Catholic document that refers to the Holy Father as "universal bishop." Can you point one out?

Pastor aeternus, chapter 3, point 2.


Now that's an eye opener..........pretty much sums it up...

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm#6

Pastor Aeternus 3.2 summarizes what we all know to be the Roman understanding of papal supremacy.  But if you go on to read 3.5 (just three paragraphs down), you'll see that even the Catholics don't view the Pope as a "universal bishop" (they don't use the term, even if we say that's basically what it amounts to), or that it takes away in any fundamental way from the rights of Bishops over their particular flocks, etc.  In other words, it's a bit more complex than our Orthodox stereotypes.  Now, there's plenty that is legitimately objectionable, but why stick with a stereotype? 
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 04:45:50 PM »

A friend of mine's father was ordained to serve the Melkites 6 years ago, I believe, but he had to go to Haifa as it was not permitted for him to be brought into priestly orders in the RCC in the US. Your mileage may vary.

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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 05:15:33 PM »

Why should they obey an illegitimate command?  We wouldn't. 

He is supposed to be an universal bishop etc.
I don't know of any Catholic document that refers to the Holy Father as "universal bishop." Can you point one out?

Papal supremacy.
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 05:16:53 PM »

A friend of mine's father was ordained to serve the Melkites 6 years ago, I believe, but he had to go to Haifa as it was not permitted for him to be brought into priestly orders in the RCC in the US. Your mileage may vary.

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Andrew

I think all of the Melkite Catholic Married Priests in the USA were ordained abroad.
All the married Melkite Priests I have met were ordained in the Middle East.
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 05:22:52 PM »

I think all of the Melkite Catholic Married Priests in the USA were ordained abroad.
All the married Melkite Priests I have met were ordained in the Middle East.

I've always heard from Catholics that the 20th century saw a corrective to enforcing celibacy on American priests that weren't Latin?
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 06:17:52 PM »

Does anyone know of any married men who are or will be ordained as Byzantine Catholic Priests in North America? I don't want specific names or locations, because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with Rome. However, I know of one such person, and I am curious to know if this phenomenon is spreading.

Note: Personally, I don't think Rome has any business telling the Byzantine Churches whether or not they can ordain married men, so I hope that Byzantine Catholics are returning to their traditional practice in this matter. 

Yes.

When did Rome lift this restriction?  I know that in the old world they are allowed to be ordained but here is a differenct matter...

Canonically speaking Cum Data Fuerit was issued in 1929,and was addressed to the Greek Catolic Exarchates of Philadelphia (Ukranian) and Pittsburgh (Rusyn) and was to be valid for ten years.  It was renewed in 1940 and again in 1950.  It was not renewed in 1960, so became a dead letter.  By that time however, the Greek Catholic bishops in the US had no intention of ordaining married candidates. Then came Vatican II and its call for Eastern Catholic Churches to restore their traditions.  The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches was promulgated in 1990, which contains no restrictions.  My Metropolia promulgated its complimentary particular law in 1999, in which provision is made for ordaining married candidates with approval from Rome.  The Ukrainians and Melkites declared their intention to ordain married men long before the CCEO and have been ordaining married candidates for the diaspora for some time.  They started by ordaining them in Europe/Middle East and bringing them back, and then began ordaining some here in the late 1980s.  In my own Metropolia in 2006 a married deacon was ordained to the presbyterate in the Eparchy of Parma, the first since 1929.  Currently several married priests serve in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh and Eparchy of Parma.

Now all that said, some Latin Catholic bishops (including those in the Curia) continue to claim the ban is still in force and this was asserted in 2008 with the caveat that dispensations could be granted if the Latin Episcopal Conference of the territory agreed.  How this is possible since the bans were region and particular church specific and were only valid for specified periods of time and needed renewing I don't know.  I do know the various Greek Catholic Churches have married priests and will continue to have them.  Rome likes to keep quiet about so that they don't have to deal with calls for allowance of married priests in general itself.  
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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 06:28:08 PM »

A friend of mine's father was ordained to serve the Melkites 6 years ago, I believe, but he had to go to Haifa as it was not permitted for him to be brought into priestly orders in the RCC in the US. Your mileage may vary.

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Andrew

I think all of the Melkite Catholic Married Priests in the USA were ordained abroad.
All the married Melkite Priests I have met were ordained in the Middle East.

Fr Andre St Germain was ordained in the US.
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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »

Very good article:

http://orthocath.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/a_quiet_revolution.pdf
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 11:21:35 AM »

I guess I never considered before the fact that the first Ukrainian Catholic priest to be ordained in this country, since 1929, was ordained in the Eparchy of Saint Josaphat.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2013, 12:12:57 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 01:38:21 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

Don't ask me, I'm still trying to figure out why any reasonably informed Catholic would oppose married priests, period.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

By "reasonably informed Roman Catholic", do you mean someone who actually is aware that there is an Eastern Catholic Church?  If so, and their knowledge extended beyond just that basic awareness, there's every chance that, their own RC prejudices aside, they would not oppose the ordination of married men--at least to the Eastern Catholic Church.
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2013, 03:42:27 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

Don't ask me, I'm still trying to figure out why any reasonably informed Catholic would oppose married priests, period.

Even reasonably informed Catholics will have blind spots and prejudices.   For some folks, "tradition" is very important.  Not a great answer, but the only one I can come up with  Wink.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2013, 04:03:23 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

I find it quite logical. If a Roman Catholic believes that mandatory celibacy is nice why wouldn't he/she think it's nice for Eastern Catholic priests too?
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2013, 04:05:24 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

By "reasonably informed Roman Catholic", do you mean someone who actually is aware that there is an Eastern Catholic Church?  If so, and their knowledge extended beyond just that basic awareness, there's every chance that, their own RC prejudices aside, they would not oppose the ordination of married men--at least to the Eastern Catholic Church.

By "reasonably informed Roman Catholic", do you mean someone who actually is aware that there is an Eastern Catholic Church?  I could not help but picture in my mind a Catholic with a 1000 yard stare when asked the question: "Are you aware of the Eastern Catholic Church?"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2013, 04:06:05 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

I find it quite logical. If a Roman Catholic believes that mandatory celibacy is nice why wouldn't he/she think it's nice for Eastern Catholic priests too?

Moral relativism!  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 04:22:48 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

By "reasonably informed Roman Catholic", do you mean someone who actually is aware that there is an Eastern Catholic Church?  If so, and their knowledge extended beyond just that basic awareness, there's every chance that, their own RC prejudices aside, they would not oppose the ordination of married men--at least to the Eastern Catholic Church.

Yes, I think you're right. Especially if they consider that the Union of Brest would surely have been a tiny, insignificant event ... if Rome had insisted on priestly celibacy.
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 05:31:11 PM »

Why would any reasonably informed Roman Catholic oppose the idea of the Eastern Catholics ordaining married men to the priesthood?

I find it quite logical. If a Roman Catholic believes that mandatory celibacy is nice why wouldn't he/she think it's nice for Eastern Catholic priests too?

Honestly I'd think priestly celibacy was a discipline sent by God himself with how highly praised it is by some Latin Riters that I've seen. So I wonder what you are asking too, since it seems they're constantly implying the Eastern practice to be inferior while nonetheless allowing it for the sake of tradition.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 10:26:23 PM »

A timely topic as celibacy in the Eastern Catholic North American diaspora was a major subject of the summer meeting of the North American Catholic Orthodox Dialogue held this week at SVS. Apparently no hints regarding the possible ordination of a married candidate for the priesthood in the BCC/Pittsburgh came up.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2013, 03:14:36 AM »

A timely topic as celibacy in the Eastern Catholic North American diaspora was a major subject of the summer meeting of the North American Catholic Orthodox Dialogue held this week at SVS. Apparently no hints regarding the possible ordination of a married candidate for the priesthood in the BCC/Pittsburgh came up.

where can we hear more about these diologues


or are they just for those who are there? (i mean, are there ever transcripts or videos) because they sound interesting!! unless they are just speeches... that is no fun.. ;P

EDIT

also, what is SVS sorry not good with those (reminds me when people kept saying HAH Bartholomew. I do not understand, HAHAHA Bartholomew?.... ohhhh His All Holiness!!!)
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 03:16:00 AM »

and of course, I will sympathise with catholics in that I would understand that they feel celibacy for priests is a good thing. They probably view it the same way one might view celibacy of bishops
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 07:51:57 AM »

also, what is SVS sorry not good with those (reminds me when people kept saying HAH Bartholomew. I do not understand, HAHAHA Bartholomew?.... ohhhh His All Holiness!!!)

Saint Vladimir's Seminary.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 08:28:37 AM »

Sorry about the abbreviation. Tablet laziness....  

The North American Orthodox Bishops Episcopal Assembly/(SCOBA) has a link to the Dialouge's published papers, as does the US Catholic Bishops Conference.(USCCB)  This week's proceedings aren't up yet.

http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic.html

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/orthodox-dialogue-documents.cfm

A download link to one of the Orthodox presenter' s  paper on celibacy is in this synopsis.The paper was previously presented in Rome last fall:
http://acrod.org/news/releases/rome-conference

OCA Metropolitan Tikhon, GOA's Fr. Tom FitzGerald and ACROD' s Fr. James Dutko will be presenters at this months Orientale Lumen Conference in Washington. "Visions of a United church" is the theme. http://olconference.com/OL_FutCon_OL_XVII.html


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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 04:06:15 PM »

A timely topic as celibacy in the Eastern Catholic North American diaspora was a major subject of the summer meeting of the North American Catholic Orthodox Dialogue held this week at SVS. Apparently no hints regarding the possible ordination of a married candidate for the priesthood in the BCC/Pittsburgh came up.

Any hint as to what they are discussing?
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2013, 09:30:03 AM »

A timely topic as celibacy in the Eastern Catholic North American diaspora was a major subject of the summer meeting of the North American Catholic Orthodox Dialogue held this week at SVS. Apparently no hints regarding the possible ordination of a married candidate for the priesthood in the BCC/Pittsburgh came up.

Any hint as to what they are discussing?

The Orthodox have used the example of the Latin church's views on celibacy, in particular, the energetic suppression in the 20th century of the venerable Eastern tradition of married clergy, as a teaching tool. The Roman representatives are well versed theologically, but really have been unaware of how real world issues and history can be "church dividing" issues. The case history of the Greek Catholic experience in America has been even more unknown to Roman Catholics than to most Orthodox, and it has been a true eye-opener to many of them. To them, celibacy in the theoretical realm is a minor issue, to us - the inability of Rome to realize for nearly a century just how the East viewed the issue of enforced celibacy and the breach of the spirit of a fundamental element of the post Florence unions of Brest and Ungvar as an example of Rome's inner attitude. In other words, a "church dividing" issue. (On finishing his presentation, Fr. James received a standing ovation from the group.  There is indeed truth in the teaching about the plank in one's eye!)
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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2013, 12:52:27 PM »

A timely topic as celibacy in the Eastern Catholic North American diaspora was a major subject of the summer meeting of the North American Catholic Orthodox Dialogue held this week at SVS. Apparently no hints regarding the possible ordination of a married candidate for the priesthood in the BCC/Pittsburgh came up.

Any hint as to what they are discussing?

The Orthodox have used the example of the Latin church's views on celibacy, in particular, the energetic suppression in the 20th century of the venerable Eastern tradition of married clergy, as a teaching tool. The Roman representatives are well versed theologically, but really have been unaware of how real world issues and history can be "church dividing" issues. The case history of the Greek Catholic experience in America has been even more unknown to Roman Catholics than to most Orthodox, and it has been a true eye-opener to many of them. To them, celibacy in the theoretical realm is a minor issue, to us - the inability of Rome to realize for nearly a century just how the East viewed the issue of enforced celibacy and the breach of the spirit of a fundamental element of the post Florence unions of Brest and Ungvar as an example of Rome's inner attitude. In other words, a "church dividing" issue. (On finishing his presentation, Fr. James received a standing ovation from the group.  There is indeed truth in the teaching about the plank in one's eye!)

I wonder if there is an underlying reason for Roman Catholics being ignorant of the Eastern Catholic Church?  I can remember in Apologetics we only touched briefly on the Eastern church and then there was nothing more said on the subject.
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