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SaintShenouti
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« on: January 22, 2005, 01:31:45 PM »

I'd like to pose and inquiry.  Who believes Freemasonry is an evil secret society and who holds the idea that it's just some benign brotherhood that is for the better of man?  Personally, I believe Freemasonry is a large international secret society that has a large influence on politics, and is, at its core, an evil cult that takes its beliefs and rituals from ancient paganism.  I know that various churches, including our Orthodox churches and Rome have all denounced Masonry as evil, and I hold to what our churches say. 
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 02:56:09 PM »

I have been to three different sites that this is being talked about.

there is a poster who knows a member....and there is a secret service.  this poster asked this member what would happen if you told...the member said "death"...

I have no clue...but I went to the freemasonry sites and saw "symbols" they use....and that was kind of bothersome...

anyways...there is alot of people who do not agree with it...but there is some who does..who thinks it is fine.  More mormons than any other christian...from the three sites I have been to talking about this....

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 03:30:10 PM »

My greatgrandfather was a Mason and my great-grandmother was in the Eastern Star.  They were both good church-going Southern Baptists all of their lives. 

If there's any truth to the wild tales about masonry there must be different levels because the masons I've known in my were certainly not plotting the downfall of society or the Catholic Church.

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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2005, 03:31:28 PM »

Freemasonry gets thrown around a lot in religious circles.  I understand that freemasons have done stuff to Christians in the past (I think they are accused of being behind the clerical persecutions in Mexico and Portugal, for example), but are they really a threat nowadays? 
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2005, 03:34:44 PM »

My greatgrandfather was a Mason and my great-grandmother was in the Eastern Star. They were both good church-going Southern Baptists all of their lives.

If there's any truth to the wild tales about masonry there must be different levels because the masons I've known in my were certainly not plotting the downfall of society or the Catholic Church.



I actually have NO clue...I was only read what was talked about at the other websites with this issue...

and when I looked at the websites...the meteral I read didnt  bother me...however I didnt read it ALL....it was the symbols...that made me question and wondered...I can honestly say I have NO idea what goes on...for I am not a member nor knew PERSONALLY someone who was one...

I dont know...I will just focus God...and that is it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2005, 03:35:20 PM »

See, in America Freemasonry really is a benign group of nice men doing good civic stuff. It's in Europe where they are more of the "secret society of men plotting." In Europe they have turf wars, etc. When my former parish priest lived in Rome he says he got caught up in some of that. St Maximilian Kolbe of the RCC had several encounters with Freemasons disrupting Catholic services in Poland in the 1940's.

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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2005, 03:35:59 PM »

Freemasonry gets thrown around a lot in religious circles. I understand that freemasons have done stuff to Christians in the past (I think they are accused of being behind the clerical persecutions in Mexico and Portugal, for example), but are they really a threat nowadays?

i dont think they are..not in THAT regard.  If we look in the past many many were being perscuted and killed...
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2005, 03:37:14 PM »

See, in America Freemasonry really is a benign group of nice men doing good civic stuff. It's in Europe where they are more of the "secret society of men plotting." In Europe they have turf wars, etc. When my former parish priest lived in Rome he says he got caught up in some of that. St Maximilian Kolbe of the RCC had several encounters with Freemasons disrupting Catholic services in Poland in the 1940's.

Anastasios


maybe this is why the misunderstanding of the group?  as I said I saw many different views on it...and maybe they take the ones in europe and get it mixed with the american ones?  ok I can see how one can get confused in that...it actually makes sense.
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 04:15:28 PM »

Free Masonry is a problem for the Orthodox Christian and is very dominant in American Politcs. Most presidents of the United States including George Washington have been affilitated with the Masonic Order. Most of the early founding fathers had political connections to Free Masonry, similar to the political actions of the Europoean Masons.

There are numerous stories of trials in which masonic members have influenced the case for a brother Mason. In England, it is a well known fact that many in the royal family are Masons and have used Masonry to protect the royal family in times of crisis. However not all stories that I have seen have to do with antecdotes. Here is one That I personally observed:

One abuse of power that I saw in the military was a Sargent ,who was over me, was concerned about an Inspector General inspection that he knew he would fail because he just had not maintained his duty responsibilities as he should. When the Inspector General Team member came to inspect the office, I observed a strange conversation which included phases like "traveller from the east to the west...Is their no mercy... orphan " This Sargent who had been dirilect in his duty was passed with a commendable report without a book or file being open. When I asked what had just happened his response was to tap his Masonic Ring and say my brothers will always cover me.

I came out of the military realizing that one of the most powerful groups within the military is not military but rather a secret organization influencing the military and its actions, the Free Masons.

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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2005, 04:40:33 PM »

I've heard many things about free masonry, but have no personal experience with it myself, nor have I studied it's history or current status, so all I can really say is that the Church I'm in (ROCOR) officially condemned (anathematized) it at a Council in 1932.
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2005, 06:02:52 PM »


I dont know the history of the masons, but I was under the impression that this originated in Scotland/England and may even trace its roots back to the Knights Templar. At some point, the Templars fell out of favor due to their growing power in medieval Europe. Perhaps this is where any anti-Christian ties come in - but the Knights Templar were at one time a Christian order of "fighting monks" that began during the Crusades.

Many of the American founding fathers were Masons and coming from Great Britain with the intellectual heritage of the Enlightenment - many of them were somewhat skeptical of the "hocus-pocus" aspects of Christianity. Many of them were deists - most of them were Christians, however - and the vast majority of them saw Christianity as a positive moral force in the life of their new nation, regardless of their personal views on the supernatural elements.

My father was once asked by a friend if he was interested in joining the Masons by a member, but declined. The fellow who asked him was just a local history teacher at the high school. I dont get the sense that the your average Mason is in on any global anti-Christian conspiracy.

Interestingly enough, I drive past the national Masonic monument every day on my way to work in Alexandria, VA.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2005, 06:23:10 PM »

There's a big Masonic temple in St. Louis right across the street from (Jesuit) St. Louis University.  Always cracked me up.  The Jesuits right across the street from the Masons. Smiley 

Speaking of which, people are so ignorant of history and culture these days that few people *get* why that's funny.  Even Catholics. 
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2005, 08:02:42 PM »

Make no mistake about it. At its core, freemasonry is a diabolically evil organisation, even in North America. There have been no "misunderstandings".  However, it's true about what some have said here about those who are in the outer degrees (who make up the majority of the membership.). For the most part, they just seem to be people that do some good deeds and offer each other support.

Someone may wish to correct me on this, but I understand that the shriners are a kind of American spin-off of the masons, with somewhat of a different raison d'etre.

There should be lots of information available out there about the true nature of freemasonry, much to the chagrin of the masons themselves. A few books have been written that expose them, and I would imagine that there should be stuff available on the internet as well.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2005, 08:58:26 PM »

Someone may wish to correct me on this, but I understand that the shriners are a kind of American spin-off of the masons, with somewhat of a different raison d'etre.

The Washington Post Magazine ran a long article on the Masons a few years ago. The overall impression I took away was that the American branch of freemasonry is probably "mostly harmless" -- but certainly the people the author interviewed were keeping things back.

Anyway, one thing I remember from the article was that the Shriners are basically the party-hardy branch of Masonry. :headbang: They were started by guys who'd been deemed a little too enthusiastic by their brother Masons, if you know what I mean. But they are HUGE on charity.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2005, 10:12:06 PM »

Freemasonry gets thrown around a lot in religious circles. I understand that freemasons have done stuff to Christians in the past (I think they are accused of being behind the clerical persecutions in Mexico and Portugal, for example), but are they really a threat nowadays?

Well, they will always be a threat to salvation. A Christian renounces Christ in taking a Masonic oath.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2005, 10:13:31 PM »

There's a big Masonic temple in St. Louis right across the street from (Jesuit) St. Louis University. Always cracked me up. The Jesuits right across the street from the Masons. Smiley

Well, they are both spooky secret societies.  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2005, 10:21:37 PM »



Well, they will always be a threat to salvation. A Christian renounces Christ in taking a Masonic oath.

I agree with your salvation comment, but where did you get that idea about their oath(s)?
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2005, 10:32:28 PM »

The ritual of the Masonic oath etails wearing a blindfold and confessing, "I am blind to the light". Which, if you are a Christian, you should know that we have the light of God.
Then the candidate accepts the "light" of Freemasonry.
What we have here, then, is a Christian confessing that he is blind to the truth, and then accepting the Masonic truth to become "illuminated".

This would entail renouncing Christ, if you are a Christian who confesses to being spiritually blind.

The blind-folded candidates enters a coffin, and then comes out "born again" to the Masonic truth.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2005, 10:45:17 PM »

Wrong
Again, where did you get your information from?
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2005, 10:47:11 PM »

How is that wrong?
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2005, 10:52:55 PM »

How is that wrong?

Don't mistake me, Matthew777, the Church condemns Freemasonry and that is good enough for me. The reasoning of the Church is sound.
But you can't answer where you are getting your incorrect information. It's of the type that promotes hysteria, or at least would if it were not so hilariously wrong. Uninformed conjecture leads to myths.
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2005, 10:58:15 PM »

Every Christian book written on Freemasonry says this.

"These are some of the actual oaths a Mason must take:  In the first degree of the Blue Lodge, "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out from its roots and buried in the rough sands of the sea..."  In the second degree, "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked out and given as prey to the wild beasts of the field and the foul of the air..."  In the third degree (Master Mason Degree), "Binding myself under no less a penalty, than that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken from thence and burned into ashes..."

     For a Christian to go through this, you have to ask several questions:  How can a follower of Jesus Christ, go to a Masonic Lodge, ask for membership, and say I am lost in darkness and I need the light of Freemasonry?  If you read First John chapter One, it says, If you claim that you are lost in darkness the Light (of Jesus Christ) is not in you and you are living a lie. 

     Secondly:  How can a Christian bow at an altar before a man that is called the Worshipful Master?  Jesus said, You cannot serve two masters.  There is only one Worshipful Master and that is Jesus Christ. 

     Lastly:  How can a Christian take a pagan blood oath, swearing to have your throat cut from ear to ear, your heart given to the beasts of the field, your body cut in two and your bowels thrown into the sea?  Those pagan blood oaths were forbidden by Jesus in Matthew chapter 5 and in the book of James."
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2005, 11:02:16 PM »

This is exactly the myth junk I am talking about!
Why don't you read some Patristics instead of this stuff? Or better, the Bible?
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2005, 11:07:19 PM »

As I've said before, almost every Christian book on Freemasonry will mention the evil of the Masonic blood oath and how it makes one spiritually blind.
I own a Catholic book on Masonry that explains this.
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2005, 11:13:29 PM »

Demetri, if you know something we don't please let us know. Because even priests have told me that you reject the blindness of your former error when becoming a freemason. Is this innacurate?

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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2005, 11:15:56 PM »

My grand-father was a Greek Orthodox immigrant who joined a Masonic lodge because he was ignorant of church teaching and thought it was the American thing to do. I hope he isn't in hell.
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2005, 11:22:58 PM »

Demetri, if you know something we don't please let us know. Because even priests have told me that you reject the blindness of your former error when becoming a freemason. Is this innacurate?

Anastasios

Absolutely untrue.

Stress again, I accept the Church's position on the Blue Lodges. Accept them now, accepted them 16 years ago when I demitted my lodge.
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2005, 11:49:42 PM »

My grand-father was a Greek Orthodox immigrant who joined a Masonic lodge because he was ignorant of church teaching and thought it was the American thing to do. I hope he isn't in hell.

Matthew777,
You should pray for your grandfather in any case. And he did what many Greeks in the 1920s-1950s did and, yes, it was to fit into American culture - business mostly.
I realize that Masonry will send many Orthodox into apoplexy. The Church properly condemns this ultra-ecumenical fraternity. Some historical perspective...
In the USA there are two large groups of Orthodox - Greek and Slavic.
The Slavs from eastern Europe came here and gained employment mostly in the now so-called Rust Belt industrialzed regions - in foundries and mines. They worked together, lived together in "company towns", and formed their own social clubs. These clubs, Slovak, Ruthenian, etc. provided a needed focus for their ethnic and religious identity and continuance. Many Byzantine Catholic parishes which eventually became a large part of the OCA and all of ACROD had the benefit of these social fraternities through which their churches were built.
The Greeks, on the other hand, entered the USA concentrating in large cities and without a lot of same centralization that the Slavs had. Their employment was spread out usually as merchants, or running//working in restaurants, some tailors, house painters. In short, no clubs or other places to congregate and figure how to build their churches. They used masonry to fill this need and did so heavily until they formed their own "Knights of Columbus" club called A.H.E.P.A - after which masonic interest by many (but not all Greeks) waned considerably.

Hope this helps you some.
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2005, 12:04:55 AM »



Absolutely untrue.

Stress again, I accept the Church's position on the Blue Lodges. Accept them now, accepted them 16 years ago when I demitted my lodge.

Did you belong to Freemasonry? Have you confessed this to a priest?
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2005, 12:09:59 AM »

Quote
Did you belong to Freemasonry? Have you confessed this to a priest?

No offense to you, but I am not so sure that it is proper etiquette to be asking someone if they have confessed a specific sin to a priest, because it is no one's business, except the confessor and their spiritual father and God.

In Christ,
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2005, 12:12:10 AM »

It just makes me worried, that's all. I really have no idea what my grandfather was like, and I often worry that he was unsaved.
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2005, 12:26:48 AM »



No offense to you, but I am not so sure that it is proper etiquette to be asking someone if they have confessed a specific sin to a priest, because it is no one's business, except the confessor and their spiritual father and God.

In Christ,
Aaron

 Roll Eyes
Thanks Aaron.
Our paduwan OrthodoxJedi seems to think I would tell HIM something that I wouldn't tell my priest.  Go figure...
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2005, 12:28:47 AM »

It just makes me worried, that's all. I really have no idea what my grandfather was like, and I often worry that he was unsaved.

WAS UNSAVED?
I must have missed the Second Coming, oh my...
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2005, 12:33:51 AM »

Men are saved from sin and death through accepting Christ, and in joining Freemasonry, a Christian can lose his salvation.
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2005, 12:39:03 AM »

One doesn't lose salvation. One must gain salvation. It is the unrepentent who are in peril.

Where did you say you got your weird ideas from?

On second thought, don't answer. I'm tired of baby-sitting tonight.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2005, 12:42:17 AM »

I think intent also plays a part in sin, if your grandfather was none the wiser about Freemasonry other than it being a social club and it would be good for business contacts, then I would pray, hope and do not worry, leaving this in the hands of God.

If someone was to become a Mason with all the intentions of forsaking the Church and knowingly breaking it's rules, then that is different altogether.

In Christ,
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Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2005, 12:43:39 AM »

OK since this thread is all about specualation it's time to close it.

Anastasios
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Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
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