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Author Topic: Looking for the "perfect" Church  (Read 6874 times) Average Rating: 0
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idontlikenames
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2005, 02:32:40 PM »

I don't think Chalcedonians are Nestorians.  The reason why I reject Chalcedon is because I believe that for a council to be Ecumenical, the Holy Spirit at least has to be present.  The Bible says that where the Holy Spirit is, there is freedom.  Consequently, where there is no freedom there is no Holy Spirit.  In fact, I cannot think of a single point in the space/time continuum where the Holy Spirit is  more lacking than Chalcedon, 451.  It was nothing but a fight between Rome and Constantinople for episcopal authority.  St. Leo was totally clueless when it came to Christology.  They were wrong in accusing the miaphysites of being monophysites.  They were wrong in accusing St. Dioscorus of having beaten Flavian to death.  There is not a single shred of evidence to prove that St. Dioscorus had the bishops sign "blank papers".  Plus, the Chalcedonians affirm enhypostasia which denies the hypostatic reality of Christ's manhood.  The theology of St. Severus of Antioch affirms the hypostatic reality of His manhood while maintaining, nonetheless, that it exists in indivisible union with the hypostasis of the Logos.

Of course, the two churches will probably reunite in the near future anyway, so this has all become a rather moot point.....so I will probably stay in the EO church anyway.  I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2005, 03:29:39 PM »

Of course, the two churches will probably reunite in the near future anyway, so this has all become a rather moot point.....so I will probably stay in the EO church anyway. I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else

If I am not mistaken, I think this sub-thread belongs in the Free-for-All board. We've argued this stuff recently to the point of nausea in the recent past. The only outcome seemed to have been that each side believed even deeper in their respective positions.
Dear "idontlikenames'",
I am of the opposite opinion about re-union. Hence your opinion is not a moot point. Indeed one cannot be "in the Church" and reject one of the 7 councils if EO, or 3 councils if OO.
My advice to you is to simply suck it up, drive the 150 miles to an Oriental church, and convert. Even going to church 4-6 times per year under those circumstances would be better than being in neither church.

Demetri
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idontlikenames
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2005, 03:42:32 PM »

Thank you for your reply.....but here's my opinion on the matter: the fact is that the Antiochian Orthodox Church (and to my knowledge, even the Greek) accepts OO's into communionas long as there is not an OO church nearby .  If they accept OO's into communion, then I don't see why they wouldn't accept an EO who rejects Chalcedon....otherwise we have a double standard.

About the thread: I apologize....i am new to this site...i didn't know that this subject has been talked about already
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Fr. David
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2005, 04:57:23 PM »

The reason why I reject Chalcedon is because I believe that for a council to be Ecumenical, the Holy Spirit at least has to be present. The Bible says that where the Holy Spirit is, there is freedom. Consequently, where there is no freedom there is no Holy Spirit. In fact, I cannot think of a single point in the space/time continuum where the Holy Spirit is more lacking than Chalcedon, 451. It was nothing but a fight between Rome and Constantinople for episcopal authority. St. Leo was totally clueless when it came to Christology. They were wrong in accusing the miaphysites of being monophysites. They were wrong in accusing St. Dioscorus of having beaten Flavian to death. There is not a single shred of evidence to prove that St. Dioscorus had the bishops sign "blank papers". Plus, the Chalcedonians affirm enhypostasia which denies the hypostatic reality of Christ's manhood. The theology of St. Severus of Antioch affirms the hypostatic reality of His manhood while maintaining, nonetheless, that it exists in indivisible union with the hypostasis of the Logos.

Of course, the two churches will probably reunite in the near future anyway, so this has all become a rather moot point.....so I will probably stay in the EO church anyway. I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else.

Since you're new here, just consider this a "friendly warning".

Please refrain in the future (even if it does reflect your honest opinion of the situation) from

1) referring to beloved saints of the Church as "clueless" and cherished councils of the Church as devoid of the Holy Spirit, and

2) accusing Chalcedonians of believing something they clearly do not.

Like Demetri said, these kinds of accusations flew back and forth for much longer than any of us liked, and comments of this tone were what got things started in the first place. And as I said, you may, of course, hold to your own opinions privately, but refrain from the inflammatory labels for saints, councils, confessions, etc.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2005, 04:58:02 PM by Pedro » Logged

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idontlikenames
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2005, 05:06:53 PM »

Please accept my apologies :'(
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2005, 08:01:54 PM »

Thank you for your reply.....but here's my opinion on the matter: the fact is that the Antiochian Orthodox Church (and to my knowledge, even the Greek) accepts OO's into communionas long as there is not an OO church nearby . If they accept OO's into communion, then I don't see why they wouldn't accept an EO who rejects Chalcedon....otherwise we have a double standard.

First, when an OO is allowed to commune at an EO parish it is with the permission of the ruling bishop and the priest operates under his guidance. It is not for us to second guess the pastoral relationship between the OOs involved and the EO priest - that is their business. Also, I would not think one can interpolate acceptance of an erroreous belief on the part of an EO, openly held, as an equivalent situation. My priest would probably deny you communion, I would think - but that, again, is his call. Yours may or may not, if he knows how you believe.
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About the thread: I apologize....i am new to this site...i didn't know that this subject has been talked about already

No apology is necessary.

Demetri
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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2005, 08:03:26 PM »

I love how the "Defensor Fidei" is from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (what, is Cardinal Mahony not enough? Smiley ).

Mor Ephrem,

Maybe you ought to read through the comment I replied to and think about my response before making the above statement?  Roll Eyes

-Defensor Fidei
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2005, 11:43:23 PM »

Please accept my apologies :'(

Hey, like I said...you're new here!  Don't sweat it!   Wink

Glad to have you aboard,

Pedro
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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2005, 01:29:43 AM »

Here's an example of the kind of attitude I HATE in Roman Catholicism.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=26340

Note the comment about Orthodox Christians being "borderline gnostic in their spirituality."

What I see at the root of Roman Catholicism is a kind of 'conformism,' i.e. be like us or there's something wrong with you. Roman Catholics 'tolerate' Eastern Catholics, as long the former keeps quiet.

In my experience, there are two predominate RC opinions of Orthodoxy 1) the patronizing "oh aren't they quaint" and 2) the "there's something suspiciously heretical about them." I don't know which is more offensive.

As an example of #2, on that same board, someone wrote that the "eastern way" of giving communion to infants wasn't respectful. I note also the debate on the Catholic Answers board about what to call the Orthodox. They wouldn't even give them the respect of calling them catholics.

So much for "the two lungs" and all that. Of course this attitude isn't present amongst more educated Roman Catholics.

Okay, I really don't understand why this post would be so terrible as to get me booted from that site without even the courtesy of any notice. 

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2005, 02:14:11 AM »

Jennifer:
I've spent my life looking for the perfect Church.  I always had people say, "The Church is perfect, the people aren't."  But I had not found Truth, and I knew I hadn't.  There was always something missing.  When there is nothing on which to build that is solid, only "God told me" leaders that are starting new churches every day, it was hard to believe anything.  I have been incredibly blessed, God has granted great Mercy to me by revealing to me what the Church was to be like.  I've looked for five years after being given this revelation.  When I found it, I knew it was Truth.  Almost immediately, I began to go through terrible things, some of the worst physical and spiritual abuse I've ever experienced in my life -- and these were Orthodox people!  But I KNEW, still, that the Church is Perfect and True.  I didn't quit.  I even had a priest tell me he was amazed that I was still hanging in here, after what I was put through.  But now that I know that I am Home, there is no where to go, and I have no desire to go. 
Worshiping God in Spirit AND and Truth is above and beyond anything I ever could have imagined, which is what the scriptures tell us.  I am now becoming part of the Church that is concretely affixed on earth as well as in Heaven, the one that Christ said "the gates of hell will not prevail against it".  I've met some of the most amazing people, and am in awe of the depth of commitment I see.

It is a relief to know that I don't have to be rich, have perfect health, and fit the stereotype of what some of so-called christianity insists is "evidence of real faith" today. 

My joy is so deep because now I know I have spiritual leadership, a spiritual father, True Worship, a way of life to lead me to be one with Body of Christ, with God.   

To sum it up, I've already been slam-dunked by "imperfect people" in the Perfect Church.  And I'm still going strong.  I'm grateful to have found the Church -- in fact, the thought sometimes is so overwhelming --- I can't explain it, I can't put it into words.  It is beyond words.
In Christ,
Kardia
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2005, 07:58:58 AM »

To sum it up, I've already been slam-dunked by "imperfect people" in the Perfect Church.  And I'm still going strong.  I'm grateful to have found the Church -- in fact, the thought sometimes is so overwhelming --- I can't explain it, I can't put it into words.  It is beyond words.

Kardia,

Thanks be to God that He's given you the perseverance to stick it out.  If it's not too personal, could you share what kinds of things happened to you at the hands of Orthodox believers?
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idontlikenames
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2005, 09:48:54 AM »

Okay, here's the deal:

I have no problem affirming the strictly DOCTRINAL content of Chalcedon.  If that were the case, it would be no difficult thing to stay EO.  It's really all a matter of semantics (I know that sounds like a cliche, but it really is true).

The problem is that as it is viewed as an Ecumenical Council, and as such I'm supposed to believe that every action at Chalcedon was led by the Holy Spirit.  This would include the anathematization of St. Dioscorus, which I cannot accept because I don't believe he did or believe anything wrong.  This would also include the condemnation of Ephesus 449, which i think was a perfectly legitimate council.  Do I have to accept these things in order to take Communion in the EO?  If so, then in all intellectual honesty I'll have to become OO.  but like I said, I am able to affirm the strictly DOCTRINAL content of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2005, 10:12:49 PM »

Pedro:
Some of what happened is probably best not repeated.  God protected me from actual rape, but suffice it to say someone did not want to take no for an answer.  I was afraid to even go to Church, because he would try to corner me, get me alone, and trap me.  I was stalked.  It was horrible. 
Another situation was spiritual abuse -- I've since had it confirmed from other priests that what happened was totally wrong.  I pray for both of these people, and God has brought me through it all. 
The worst part of it was that I was new, and so I was blamed, and accused of lying, exaggerating, etc.  Again, it was confirmed to me that I was not the first to experience these things.  I just turned out to be a convenient scapegoat.
I only say these things to express that it became obvious to me that these trials were tests for me --- the worst kinds of abuse, spiritual and sexual -- and I still refused to stop believing in the Church.  I know that it is True, and the fact that there are people with serious problems does not change Truth!  I have no desire to say who these people are.  I pray for their healing.   It has been difficult finally finding Home, and then attacked within weeks!  But I've since found real stability,
love and support.  One thing about it -- having been through those things, it makes it easier to look at most problems as minor! 

This Church is worth dying for.  I'm so grateful for God's mercy in bringing me to the Truth.

Kardia
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« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2005, 08:10:06 AM »

I only say these things to express that it became obvious to me that these trials were tests for me --- the worst kinds of abuse, spiritual and sexual -- and I still refused to stop believing in the Church.  I know that it is True, and the fact that there are people with serious problems does not change Truth!  I have no desire to say who these people are.  I pray for their healing.   It has been difficult finally finding Home, and then attacked within weeks!  But I've since found real stability, love and support.  One thing about it -- having been through those things, it makes it easier to look at most problems as minor! 

This Church is worth dying for.  I'm so grateful for God's mercy in bringing me to the Truth.

Wow.   Shocked  Kardia, that's wonderful and incredible.  Of course, no one expects you to name names, parish, priest, anything.  I love how you have remained strong within the Church, and I especially like the line, "the fact that there are people with serious problems does not change Truth!"  How wonderful that you were able to find the support and reaffirmation in the Church that we all need (especially when so new to the Faith!).

Thanks so much for sharing.

Pedro
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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2005, 12:43:22 AM »

Dear DF,

Forgive me.  My comment was not directed personally at you, but seems to have been interpreted this way. 
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