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Author Topic: The Sign of the Cross: Roman Catholic vs. Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic  (Read 3628 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2013, 07:17:22 AM »

Liturgical dancing in its Polish form?

Actually, they are Kashubians.

EDIT: I see there are a lot of negative votes. Are there people in Poland that don't like it or something?

It's a local tradition . Most people are not aware of it and consider it bizarre at least.
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« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2013, 11:23:53 AM »

You are correct!  I only consider X tradition to be the real one. 
I cannot leave a "real" church to go join a "fake" church.

But, you also have it completely backwards. 
If the "real" church won't accept me; how can joining a "fake" church possibly help anything?

I haven't really been following this thread, but are you saying that you only consider one Church within the Orthodox Church to be truthful about something, and that all the other Churches within our communion are incorrect about something?

Dear KostaC,

Not exactly.  I'm not in a position to make any conclusions about Orthodoxy.  Just relating personal beliefs: right or wrong?
I'm trying to be brief and contextual instead of academically formal.  I'm a visiting (lowly) enquirer, not a member of the clergy.

Michal Kalina poked serious holes in my argument with that video post.
If RC's actually do that in other parts of the world; it invalidates my jurisdictional issue about Orthodoxy, but not their's.

The issue started where I said I ran into problems with Icons at a certain Orthodox Church.
Someone on here told me to go to another church, and I said no, I want to go to this Church,
despite whatever superficial issues there seem to be with certain personality traits there.
 
Then someone said that because I'm not willing to go to another church,
that I'm converting for the wrong reason; my faith/belief in God is questionable;
because all Orthodox jurisdictions are Equal, and my unwillingness to abandon this church;
means that I'm questioning this Equality; and that is to be regarded as a faith issue, rather than as a personal preference.

My point is that I shouldn't be required to switch to another church,
just to prove the ideological purity of the statement that "All Orthodox Churches are Equal."
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« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2013, 11:36:50 AM »

You are twisting posts of others here.

You weren't adviced to go to a church that does not venerate icons (since there are not such) but to church that's priest might be less intimidating:

You should try another Orthodox church where the priest doesn't flip out at people.
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« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2013, 12:12:38 PM »

Michal Kalina poked serious holes in my argument with that video post.
If RC's actually do that in other parts of the world; it invalidates my jurisdictional issue about Orthodoxy, but not their's.

Seriously?  A video of a "break-dancing" "icon" was all it took?

If that video demonstrated to you that RC's venerate icons like the EO, then I'd love to visit your church...  Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2013, 12:57:46 PM »

Michal Kalina poked serious holes in my argument with that video post.
If RC's actually do that in other parts of the world; it invalidates my jurisdictional issue about Orthodoxy, but not their's.
Seriously?  A video of a "break-dancing" "icon" was all it took?
If that video demonstrated to you that RC's venerate icons like the EO, then I'd love to visit your church...  Smiley

Dear Mor,

This thread is turning into that Saturday Night Live Episode where they brought together the Great Minds of the world
from different time periods: like Aristotle, Moses, Galileo, etc..; and none of them could comprehend each other.

I don't know how legitimate that RC parish is, but that opens the door for other parts of the world doing things differently.
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« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2013, 01:40:13 PM »

You are twisting posts of others here.

You weren't adviced to go to a church that does not venerate icons (since there are not such) but to church that's priest might be less intimidating:

You should try another Orthodox church where the priest doesn't flip out at people.

Well, saying it that way, "advised to go to a church where the priests might be less intimidating" is a very positive spin on it.
You are the first person to state it that way; and I might be forced to resort to that, unfortunately.

But I really don't want to.
I've been told to go to another church over 100 times now,
but if I do that, I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons.

I feel like if I give up and go to another church, then I lose.
If I can't be accepted at the church I want to go to,
then what good does it do to go to a church that I don't want to go to?
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« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2013, 01:59:59 PM »

Another interesting icon veneration by Roman Catholics is that of Weeping Madonna of Poc, taken to Vienna in the 17th century from Mariapoc. It remains the most visited pilgrimage church in Hungary. http://www.mariapocskegyhely.hu/?q=en/node/322
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« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2013, 03:28:49 PM »

But I really don't want to.
I've been told to go to another church over 100 times now,
but if I do that, I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons.

I feel like if I give up and go to another church, then I lose.
If I can't be accepted at the church I want to go to,
then what good does it do to go to a church that I don't want to go to?

You are not being not accepted in that church. It's you who can't accept that parish.
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« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2013, 04:13:40 PM »

I don't know how legitimate that RC parish is, but that opens the door for other parts of the world doing things differently.

Sure, I just think it's funny.  I mean, there were Orthodox in this thread who were formerly Roman Catholics who testified of their experiences within the RCC in the United States, and (presuming you're in the US) that didn't seem to open any doors in your thinking about the matter.  But a Youtube video from Poland was the clincher. 
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« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2013, 06:07:13 PM »

Dear KostaC,

Not exactly.  I'm not in a position to make any conclusions about Orthodoxy.  Just relating personal beliefs: right or wrong?
I'm trying to be brief and contextual instead of academically formal.  I'm a visiting (lowly) enquirer, not a member of the clergy.

Michal Kalina poked serious holes in my argument with that video post.
If RC's actually do that in other parts of the world; it invalidates my jurisdictional issue about Orthodoxy, but not their's.

The issue started where I said I ran into problems with Icons at a certain Orthodox Church.
Someone on here told me to go to another church, and I said no, I want to go to this Church,
despite whatever superficial issues there seem to be with certain personality traits there.
 
Then someone said that because I'm not willing to go to another church,
that I'm converting for the wrong reason; my faith/belief in God is questionable;
because all Orthodox jurisdictions are Equal, and my unwillingness to abandon this church;
means that I'm questioning this Equality; and that is to be regarded as a faith issue, rather than as a personal preference.

My point is that I shouldn't be required to switch to another church,
just to prove the ideological purity of the statement that "All Orthodox Churches are Equal."

Well, I think that changes a bit of things, then. I can say, though, that I've had a similar experience with the second church that I attended in my life as more than a visitor.

I am a Greek speaker, I like Greek-speaking churches. Obviously, then, when I moved to D.C. (seasonally) for school, I picked a Greek-speaking church in the area. It was even right off a bus route that picked me up about a block or two down from my dorm (even though it was always late and that was the designated break area for the bus drivers so I had to wait an additional 12 minutes each Sunday before we sped off).

Well, literally every church usher (all but one), everyone parishioner, everyone at that church was cold, rude, and difficult to deal with. Even this squat, gorilla-looking old troll who dealt with the candles in the narthex accused my Mother of stealing from his money area on Easter night. Having it up to here with that church, I vowed to never return and I decided to attend the OCA church down the road. Everyone there is incredibly nice and will go up to introduce themselves to me because they haven't seen me before, one of the priests there used to be stationed at a Greek-speaking church and says the confessional prayers for me in Greek, and I have invited to literally the nicest Easter meal I have ever been to at a parishioner's house. So, I feel your pain, some churches can be absolutely monstrous, other churches seem like a little foretaste of what Heaven's going to be like.

I can understand that you like one congregation over another. I just would like to plead with you that you do not hypothesise that because one church has a rotten congregation, the entire Church it belongs to is like that. Sometimes, we just get (un)lucky.
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« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2013, 07:40:25 PM »

Quote
I can understand that you like one congregation over another. I just would like to plead with you that you do not hypothesise that because one church has a rotten congregation, the entire Church it belongs to is like that. Sometimes, we just get (un)lucky.

True enough, but Robotron has said that he regards one particular jurisdiction as proper and correct, and rejects the others. He has also said that he will only join that "correct" jurisdiction, and no other, if he is to convert. This is hardly a proper basis for becoming Orthodox.
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« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2013, 01:27:02 AM »

I don't know how legitimate that RC parish is, but that opens the door for other parts of the world doing things differently.
 
I mean, there were Orthodox in this thread who were formerly Roman Catholics who testified of their experiences within the RCC in the United States, and (presuming you're in the US) that didn't seem to open any doors in your thinking about the matter. 
But a Youtube video from Poland was the clincher. 

I was raised a Roman Catholic, so I don't need other Roman Catholics to tell me what it's like to be Roman Catholic.
The neighborhood that I grew up in doesn't hold Poland in high esteem to begin with,
but if they saw that video; it would throw them over the edge.

However, if they are RC, then who am I to judge differences in Orthodox jurisdictions?

This is sort of like the Karl Donitz defense, where he exonerated himself by showing the other side used the same tactics that he did.

Okay, so if I look at differences between Orthodox jurisdictions and then someone points out unknown RC deviations from Poland
not that that really matters (consider the source) but the mere existence at least gives pause to second-guess things.
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« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2013, 01:31:10 AM »

I don't know how legitimate that RC parish is, but that opens the door for other parts of the world doing things differently.
 
I mean, there were Orthodox in this thread who were formerly Roman Catholics who testified of their experiences within the RCC in the United States, and (presuming you're in the US) that didn't seem to open any doors in your thinking about the matter. 
But a Youtube video from Poland was the clincher. 

I was raised a Roman Catholic, so I don't need other Roman Catholics to tell me what it's like to be Roman Catholic.
The neighborhood that I grew up in doesn't hold Poland in high esteem to begin with,
but if they saw that video; it would throw them over the edge.

However, if they are RC, then who am I to judge differences in Orthodox jurisdictions?

This is sort of like the Karl Donitz defense, where he exonerated himself by showing the other side used the same tactics that he did.

Okay, so if I look at differences between Orthodox jurisdictions and then someone points out unknown RC deviations from Poland
not that that really matters (consider the source) but the mere existence at least gives pause to second-guess things.

Haven't you made enough excuses and beat around the bush long enough?  Unless the nearest Orthodox Church in the jurisdiction that you prefer is 500 miles away, you need to make the necessary adjustments to the situation at hand.  It's not going to occur overnight; I realize that.  If nothing is moving you towards Orthodoxy, then that's where you are.
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« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2013, 01:48:44 AM »

This is hardly a proper basis for becoming Orthodox.

That statement discredits the Orthodox Church because you are saying there is an improper basis for becoming Orthodox.

Also, it is would seem to be wrong to exclude someone from the "One True Faith";
so you are saying it is not;
but some exclusive social organization that gives you a superior rank.
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« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2013, 01:52:11 AM »

This is hardly a proper basis for becoming Orthodox.

That statement discredits the Orthodox Church because you are saying there is an improper basis for becoming Orthodox.

Also, it is would seem to be wrong to exclude someone from the "One True Faith";
so you are saying it is not;
but some exclusive social organization that gives you a superior rank.

There is no improper basis for becoming Orthodox.  Either you follow the guidelines of the priest at the church you're interested in joining or you simply do nothing.  It's that simple.  Why continue to exercise unnecessary mental gymnastics?
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« Reply #105 on: June 28, 2013, 02:19:23 AM »

Dear KostaC,

Thanks, I appreciate your polite response.  It was very helpful to me.

I can understand that you like one congregation over another. I just would like to plead with you that you do not hypothesise that because one church has a rotten congregation, the entire Church it belongs to is like that. Sometimes, we just get (un)lucky.

I apologize if it seems like I'm saying that, but I never meant to.

When I said these certain things happened there,
I meant them as a reason for me to be hesitant and risk averse
about taking initiative or being assertive there;
not about passing judgement about the parish or complaining.

I really love this particular church; that's why I put up with these things.
But, I don't necessarily judge the parishioners there; it's just that they seem to unfairly judge me
and expect me to know things without teaching them to me; and I'm not a mind reader;
so without someone to teach me; I cannot possibly know what right or wrong is, there. 

I am a Greek speaker, I like Greek-speaking churches. Obviously, then, when I moved to D.C. (seasonally) for school, I picked a Greek-speaking church in the area. It was even right off a bus route that picked me up about a block or two down from my dorm (even though it was always late and that was the designated break area for the bus drivers so I had to wait an additional 12 minutes each Sunday before we sped off).

Well, literally every church usher (all but one), everyone parishioner, everyone at that church was cold, rude, and difficult to deal with. Even this squat, gorilla-looking old troll who dealt with the candles in the narthex accused my Mother of stealing from his money area on Easter night. Having it up to here with that church, I vowed to never return and I decided to attend the OCA church down the road. Everyone there is incredibly nice and will go up to introduce themselves to me because they haven't seen me before, one of the priests there used to be stationed at a Greek-speaking church and says the confessional prayers for me in Greek, and I have invited to literally the nicest Easter meal I have ever been to at a parishioner's house. So, I feel your pain, some churches can be absolutely monstrous, other churches seem like a little foretaste of what Heaven's going to be like.

It is interesting that you say this. 
I once had someone from the church I was attending tell me to go to a Greek church instead.
Now, you've just discredited what they've said.

Also, people from this church have called the prior Orthodox Church I attended a "fake" church, though not with those exact words.

So, I've heard both people tell me to go to another Church,
not liking my reasons for wanting to convert,
telling me the prior Orthodox Church I went to, wasn't a "real" church like theirs is.

People are discrediting themselves trying to maintain this ideology of
"All Orthodox Churches are Equal" when they don't believe it themselves?


Sorry, that last sentence wasn't directed at you.
Thanks for understanding my position, and I will try not to judge Orthodox by personality alone.

I only have an interest in attending this one jurisdiction;
so when they tell me to go somewhere else,
it is not that I'm disobeying them;
but I just have no interest in going anywhere else;
so I stay home, instead.
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« Reply #106 on: June 28, 2013, 02:41:53 AM »

Haven't you made enough excuses and beat around the bush long enough? 
Unless the nearest Orthodox Church in the jurisdiction that you prefer is 500 miles away,
you need to make the necessary adjustments to the situation at hand. 
It's not going to occur overnight; I realize that. 
If nothing is moving you towards Orthodoxy, then that's where you are.

There is no improper basis for becoming Orthodox. 
Either you follow the guidelines of the priest at the church you're interested in joining or you simply do nothing. 
It's that simple.  Why continue to exercise unnecessary mental gymnastics?

I don't have a choice.  I cannot be too specific on a public forum, sorry.
I've burned myself out trying to join this church; and nothing I do works.
I learned a few things on this thread about icons,
but I've been so severely damaged that blaming me further doesn't work.

I blamed myself first with everything that went wrong; and tried my best to fix things;
but everything I've tried has failed; so I can only blame myself so much;
until I have to turn it around and ask:
How can ANYONE possibly join this church, with the hurdles I've been put through?

If you have to be born Orthodox to join a church; then that defies it being a true faith.
It's just a birth accident and nothing more.


Some people come out of the blue; and seem to understand what I'm going through
and have said very nice and helpful things to me, on this thread.

I'm hoping someone can cut through something that I cannot see; and give me a better perspective
on how to improve my current situation, so I can get the courage to try attending church again.

I ran into a type of conflict last time; where I flipped the OFF switch on church attendance.
I haven't even tried to go for several weeks; and I have no regrets either; I'm in such a state of shock.
Something tells me that it shouldn't be like this; but it is and I cannot do anything about it.
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« Reply #107 on: June 28, 2013, 02:52:25 AM »

That statement discredits the Orthodox Church because you are saying there is an improper basis for becoming Orthodox.

Yeah, plenty of. Trying to adopt some cultural cosplaying is one of them.
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« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2013, 03:08:33 AM »

That statement discredits the Orthodox Church because you are saying there is an improper basis for becoming Orthodox.
Yeah, plenty of. Trying to adopt some cultural cosplaying is one of them.

I'm not able to separate Orthodoxy from the culture that it came from.
Doing that seems more false to me than what you are accusing me of.
Maybe I'm looking at it from a deeper level than you are
but I need something that feels real to me.
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« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2013, 07:38:23 AM »

Dear KostaC,

Thanks, I appreciate your polite response.  It was very helpful to me.


I apologize if it seems like I'm saying that, but I never meant to.

When I said these certain things happened there,
I meant them as a reason for me to be hesitant and risk averse
about taking initiative or being assertive there;
not about passing judgement about the parish or complaining.

I really love this particular church; that's why I put up with these things.
But, I don't necessarily judge the parishioners there; it's just that they seem to unfairly judge me
and expect me to know things without teaching them to me; and I'm not a mind reader;
so without someone to teach me; I cannot possibly know what right or wrong is, there. 


It is interesting that you say this. 
I once had someone from the church I was attending tell me to go to a Greek church instead.
Now, you've just discredited what they've said.

Also, people from this church have called the prior Orthodox Church I attended a "fake" church, though not with those exact words.

So, I've heard both people tell me to go to another Church,
not liking my reasons for wanting to convert,
telling me the prior Orthodox Church I went to, wasn't a "real" church like theirs is.

People are discrediting themselves trying to maintain this ideology of
"All Orthodox Churches are Equal" when they don't believe it themselves?


Sorry, that last sentence wasn't directed at you.
Thanks for understanding my position, and I will try not to judge Orthodox by personality alone.

I only have an interest in attending this one jurisdiction;
so when they tell me to go somewhere else,
it is not that I'm disobeying them;
but I just have no interest in going anywhere else;
so I stay home, instead.

I'm sorry, I don't actually think you understand what I said. I didn't discredit anything that some parishioners have told you to do, in fact, my point of writing this was to do literally the exact opposite. How can you say you understand my response if you want to throw away multiple opinions because some schmuck on the Internet says that he dislikes a parish. If I let one congregation sour an entire Church, then I would've abandoned my own home parish just because an OCA church took me in 700 miles away.

I think you keep conflating the behaviours of one individual parish for the behaviours of their respective Church as a whole. You need to rid yourself of that misconception.

Literally no one here disbelieves in the unity of Orthodoxy just because we have personal preferences and attitudes. I like churches that use Byzantine chanting and notation. Does that mean that I hate Russian churches? No, absolutely not! One lady on a train in Boston said she disliked my Church (not my church, mind you; there is an enormous difference) because we used the Revised Julian calendar. Does that me that Moscow hates me? Again, no, not in the slightest!

Far be it from me to say, but if you're going to act like this, then keep doing what you're doing and stay home. Or, if you prefer a denomination that encourages slavish devotion to one particular religious leader, I hear Benny Hinn Ministries is accepting new converts now. 
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« Reply #110 on: June 28, 2013, 08:29:19 AM »

Robotron:

I will be blunt.  Everyone here has given you good advice and yet you choose to ignore it. Why did you ask for it in the first place?  It seems that you have an ax to grind.   I do not understand your thinking that the particular Orthodox Church you wish to attend is the ONLY one you will have anything to do with. I happened to end up with Antioch but that does not mean I think the others such as OCA or the GOA, etc are invalid or not correct.   Sorry if I sound nasty I am not trying to be but you are driving yourself down a spiritual rabbit hole and I am concerned about your well being. I also would think it safe to say that everyone else on this forum cares as well.   I will continue to pray for you.


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« Reply #111 on: June 28, 2013, 12:41:19 PM »

I'm sorry, I don't actually think you understand what I said. I didn't discredit anything that some parishioners have told you to do, in fact, my point of writing this was to do literally the exact opposite. How can you say you understand my response if you want to throw away multiple opinions because some schmuck on the Internet says that he dislikes a parish. If I let one congregation sour an entire Church, then I would've abandoned my own home parish just because an OCA church took me in 700 miles away.

I think you keep conflating the behaviours of one individual parish for the behaviours of their respective Church as a whole. You need to rid yourself of that misconception.

Literally no one here disbelieves in the unity of Orthodoxy just because we have personal preferences and attitudes. I like churches that use Byzantine chanting and notation. Does that mean that I hate Russian churches? No, absolutely not! One lady on a train in Boston said she disliked my Church (not my church, mind you; there is an enormous difference) because we used the Revised Julian calendar. Does that me that Moscow hates me? Again, no, not in the slightest!

Far be it from me to say, but if you're going to act like this, then keep doing what you're doing and stay home. Or, if you prefer a denomination that encourages slavish devotion to one particular religious leader, I hear Benny Hinn Ministries is accepting new converts now. 

Dear KostaC,

No, what you said about Greek Churches was very helpful actually.
What you discredited for me was the idea that it would be easier to adapt to a Greek Church than the one I was going to.
I'm not Greek and have limited interest in Greek Culture, (please don't take this the wrong way)
so this wasn't a wise thing for this parishioner to suggest to me.

I find it interesting that expressing a preference for a particular Orthodox Jurisdiction has now led to a suggestion
that I convert to a non-Orthodox church?   
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« Reply #112 on: June 28, 2013, 01:06:14 PM »

No, what you said about Greek Churches was very helpful actually.
What you discredited for me was the idea that it would be easier to adapt to a Greek Church than the one I was going to.
I'm not Greek and have limited interest in Greek Culture, (please don't take this the wrong way)
so this wasn't a wise thing for this parishioner to suggest to me.

I find it interesting that expressing a preference for a particular Orthodox Jurisdiction has now led to a suggestion
that I convert to a non-Orthodox church?   

No one is advocating you join a non-Orthodox church.  What people are saying is that if you're going to join the Orthodox Church, it ought to be for the right reason.  That's not just for you in particular, but for people in general. 

You should believe that what this Church teaches about Christ and practices in light of that teaching is true.  If that's the starting point, then of course individuals will have preferences, but those preferences will be subjugated to this main point, the preferences will not be elevated over it, because this Church does not operate in that way.  You make a statement about joining the Church through one particular jurisdiction or not joining at all, and then make comments about how insufferable the particular parish is and how bad your experiences there were...you can't expect Orthodox to hear that and wonder what the thought process behind all that is.  Again, it's not directed toward you personally so much, it's directed more to the ideas.       

These "Greek" comments are another example.  You think the parishioner who suggested you try a Greek parish was not wise to suggest it because you're not Greek and have limited interest in Greek culture.  But it's more likely they suggested it because there are more converts there, or there is more use of English there, or the priest has more experience with working with converts, or any number of reasons that don't have to do with "if you're not born as one of us, don't bother trying".  I once visited a church near my home, for example, and one of the parishioners suggested I might like prefer the parish twenty miles away because it was a bigger parish, more people my age, more established immigrants vs. people who just came to the US, etc.  They weren't trying to kick me out or anything, they were looking out for what they thought might be a better fit for me.  As it turned out, I liked the parish, so I became a frequent visitor, and I've never been anything but warmly welcomed. 

If you're identifying Orthodoxy with particular cultures and your ability to take on the culture as your own, that's the wrong way of looking at it.  No one will require you to become Russian to be Orthodox.  You have to become Orthodox to be Orthodox.  You have to believe in Christ and in his gospel and commit to living it out in your life to the best of your ability.  That is burden enough without adding the pressure of trying to be ethnic.     
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« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2013, 01:14:18 PM »

I will be blunt.  Everyone here has given you good advice and yet you choose to ignore it. Why did you ask for it in the first place?  It seems that you have an ax to grind.   I do not understand your thinking that the particular Orthodox Church you wish to attend is the ONLY one you will have anything to do with. I happened to end up with Antioch but that does not mean I think the others such as OCA or the GOA, etc are invalid or not correct.   Sorry if I sound nasty I am not trying to be but you are driving yourself down a spiritual rabbit hole and I am concerned about your well being. I also would think it safe to say that everyone else on this forum cares as well.   I will continue to pray for you.

Dear converted viking,

Actually, this thread went much better than I ever could have possibly expected.
I started out questioning why worrying about upsetting people should be a greater factor
than Worshiping God in Spirit and Truth; which is a phrase used by other religious groups too.

Then I got some good answers to the Icon question, both from the RC perspective that they don't oppose it;
and also a really good article explaining the difference between good images and bad images (whatever)
that I hadn't thought of before.


I think some people are getting locked into this idea that my preference for a specific jurisdiction
has a larger meaning attached to it; and that is a mystery to me.
Logically speaking, if they are all the same, then preferring one over the other shouldn't matter.
Yet, I'm being told that expressing a preference means I shouldn't covert at all
or even now people telling me to go to a non-Orthodox church?

That's pretty extreme denial of something?  I don't know what, but preferring a specific jurisdiction can only
be regarded as a matter of faith; if the jurisdictions are inherently un-equal; or the church is deeply divided on something?

I don't know what the church is divided on.  I see people there, just because they were born into it.

I'm not saying any Orthodox Church is invalid or not correct for other people who choose to be a part of that jurisdiction.
I'm only saying that for me personally; I'd mainly want to be a part of one particular jurisdiction.

It seems that people on this forum are telling me that my preference for a specific jurisdiction
means that I'm no longer eligible to convert; because I refuse to maintain some party line?

Not merely saying it, but demonstrating it by being willing to leave for another jurisdiction
that I'm not interested in attending?

Okay, then why do you proclaim jurisdictions on this board with the screen name?
Everyone go change your own jurisdiction first, before telling me that I'm required to
or I'm converting for the wrong reason?

This doesn't make any logical sense to me?  I show up to a church desiring to convert;
and I'm driven out for wanting to convert for the wrong reasons?

Sorry I ever showed up.  I won't do it ever again, I promise.
That kind of makes it had to return again, you know?


However, I thank you and everyone else for your helpful advice so far;
and many people on this forum have said some very helpful things to me;
much more so, than I'd have ever anticipated beforehand.

Sorry I'm so difficult; but I'm just that type of person.
I need things to logically make sense too.
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« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »

Rule #1, never attempt to learn about Orthodoxy from the Internet.  Half the people are heretic and the other half are hyperdox and nothing you do will satisfy either category.  Find an Orthodox priest, it doesn't matter what jurisdiction, and have a sit down talk with him.  You will get far more from that than you will from 5 years of being on this forum.
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« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2013, 02:08:13 PM »

Rule #1, never attempt to learn about Orthodoxy from the Internet.  Half the people are heretic and the other half are hyperdox and nothing you do will satisfy either category.  Find an Orthodox priest, it doesn't matter what jurisdiction, and have a sit down talk with him.  You will get far more from that than you will from 5 years of being on this forum.

Thankfully since you are giving him this advice on the internet he must disregard it. Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2013, 02:10:43 PM »

Rule #1, never attempt to learn about Orthodoxy from the Internet.  Half the people are heretic and the other half are hyperdox and nothing you do will satisfy either category.  Find an Orthodox priest, it doesn't matter what jurisdiction, and have a sit down talk with him.  You will get far more from that than you will from 5 years of being on this forum.

Thankfully since you are giving him this advice on the internet he must disregard it. Smiley

lol, I'm not trying to teach him about Orthodoxy.  I didn't say all advice on the internet is bad.  It can be quite helpful if you are looking to do, say, small engine repairs or how to make a birdhouse.
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« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2013, 02:41:52 PM »

Rule #1, never attempt to learn about Orthodoxy from the Internet.  Half the people are heretic and the other half are hyperdox and nothing you do will satisfy either category.  Find an Orthodox priest, it doesn't matter what jurisdiction, and have a sit down talk with him.  You will get far more from that than you will from 5 years of being on this forum.

Thankfully since you are giving him this advice on the internet he must disregard it. Smiley

lol, I'm not trying to teach him about Orthodoxy.  I didn't say all advice on the internet is bad.  It can be quite helpful if you are looking to do, say, small engine repairs or how to make a birdhouse.

What I mean is that IMO telling someone to "ask a priest" is unhelpful if you don't actually know the situation. I've had both good and bad experiences with clergy; I think one priest I know is the bees knees, another was rude and obnoxious and frankly harmful, and the others fell in some middle zone between the two.
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« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2013, 02:50:21 PM »

Rule #1, never attempt to learn about Orthodoxy from the Internet.  Half the people are heretic and the other half are hyperdox and nothing you do will satisfy either category.  Find an Orthodox priest, it doesn't matter what jurisdiction, and have a sit down talk with him.  You will get far more from that than you will from 5 years of being on this forum.

Thankfully since you are giving him this advice on the internet he must disregard it. Smiley

lol, I'm not trying to teach him about Orthodoxy.  I didn't say all advice on the internet is bad.  It can be quite helpful if you are looking to do, say, small engine repairs or how to make a birdhouse.

What I mean is that IMO telling someone to "ask a priest" is unhelpful if you don't actually know the situation. I've had both good and bad experiences with clergy; I think one priest I know is the bees knees, another was rude and obnoxious and frankly harmful, and the others fell in some middle zone between the two.

Probably, even if he sat down in person with most of the people here and had a serious conversation, they would probably be helpful, but there is something about forums and the interactions therein that kind of destroy helpful, earnest counsel.
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« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2013, 03:01:50 PM »

Off Topic and inappropriate postings on this tiopic have forced me to close the topic.

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