OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 01, 2014, 09:05:26 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: First Seven Ecumenical Councils  (Read 1105 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« on: June 03, 2013, 08:47:40 AM »

Hello all,

I've read (probably here on these forums) that the Orthodox Church considers only the first seven ecumenical councils to be binding. Is that true? If so, are the following councils the first seven? ...

First Council of Nicaea (325)
First Council of Constantinople (381)
Council of Ephesus (431)
Council of Chalcedon (451)
Second Council of Constantinople (553)
Third Council of Constantinople (680)
Second Council of Nicaea (787)

Thanks!  Smiley
Logged

soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 232



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 08:55:22 AM »

Yep! Grin
Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 10:26:56 AM »

Technically, yes, those are the councils that we refer to as "the ecumenical councils." However, there are a couple of subsequent councils which are binding for Orthodox and which would fulfill the technical definition of an ecumenical council, even if they are not typically referred to as such. For example, the Palamite synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351, held in Constantinople.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 10:34:55 AM »

Technically, yes, those are the councils that we refer to as "the ecumenical councils." However, there are a couple of subsequent councils which are binding for Orthodox and which would fulfill the technical definition of an ecumenical council, even if they are not typically referred to as such. For example, the Palamite synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351, held in Constantinople.

Are those three Palamite synods the only others that are binding besides the seven ecumenical councils? What I'm really trying to ascertain is what all the binding councils are, so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
Logged

Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 10:42:22 AM »

Technically, yes, those are the councils that we refer to as "the ecumenical councils." However, there are a couple of subsequent councils which are binding for Orthodox and which would fulfill the technical definition of an ecumenical council, even if they are not typically referred to as such. For example, the Palamite synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351, held in Constantinople.

Are those three Palamite synods the only others that are binding besides the seven ecumenical councils? What I'm really trying to ascertain is what all the binding councils are, so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.

A better gauge of that would be to look not only at councils and other "official' teachings but also at which doctrines are contained in the common hymnography of the church. For example, there is no ecumenical council explicitly sanctioning all the 12 major feasts but, as they are universally celebrated in the Church they are binding.

There is at least one other synod which is binding, which is the Photian synod in Constantinople in 879.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,194



« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 11:00:03 AM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 11:17:57 AM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.

If I were to become Orthodox (which I'm considering), I would have to agree with all that is official teaching in the OC, i.e., what is required to be believed. Otherwise I would be dishonest and hypocritical. Furthermore, I know that in the Catholic Church, when one takes communion, one is essentially saying by that act, that one agrees to, and submits to, all teaching of that church. If one does not agree to or submit to all that is taught, one is not really in communion with that church, and hence taking communion, for that individual, is hypocritical. I'm kind of assuming that the OC has the same view of taking communion (receiving communion = full assent to all that the OC teaches), but perhaps I'm assuming too much?
Logged

Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 11:44:26 AM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.

If I were to become Orthodox (which I'm considering), I would have to agree with all that is official teaching in the OC, i.e., what is required to be believed. Otherwise I would be dishonest and hypocritical. Furthermore, I know that in the Catholic Church, when one takes communion, one is essentially saying by that act, that one agrees to, and submits to, all teaching of that church. If one does not agree to or submit to all that is taught, one is not really in communion with that church, and hence taking communion, for that individual, is hypocritical. I'm kind of assuming that the OC has the same view of taking communion (receiving communion = full assent to all that the OC teaches), but perhaps I'm assuming too much?

Entering the Church of Christ is like falling in love more than checking off a list. We fall in love with people even while there's lots we don't know about them. When Christ came to Sts. Andrew and Peter and said, "Follow me," they didn't really know entirely what they were getting into, they just knew it was right. I'm not saying you shouldn't do your research, but you won't be able to learn everything and then say, "I agree, I'm ready." There is not a clear line between what is the minimum requirement of belief and the rest of tradition, though some have tried to draw that line at various places. Despite all the excellent literature available, the most powerful experience of Orthodoxy for many is its liturgical life, which operates on a level above our powers of discursive reasoning. After you enter the Church, you may learn some things that don't sit well with you; how you react to that will depend on what it is, but generally being Orthodox involves transforming yourself, or rather allowing yourself to be transformed, including some cherished opinions.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:48:00 AM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,194



« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 11:45:05 AM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.

If I were to become Orthodox (which I'm considering), I would have to agree with all that is official teaching in the OC, i.e., what is required to be believed. Otherwise I would be dishonest and hypocritical. Furthermore, I know that in the Catholic Church, when one takes communion, one is essentially saying by that act, that one agrees to, and submits to, all teaching of that church. If one does not agree to or submit to all that is taught, one is not really in communion with that church, and hence taking communion, for that individual, is hypocritical. I'm kind of assuming that the OC has the same view of taking communion (receiving communion = full assent to all that the OC teaches), but perhaps I'm assuming too much?

I suppose so, but Orthodoxy doesn't really have a checklist mentality whereby you must believe this list of things.  I think the only thing that is truly "required" is adherence to the Nicene Creed. Orthodoxy isn't so much a theological construct as it is the correct practice of worshiping God.  This doesn't mean it should be rushed into, but reading a volume of texts to find out what all the beliefs are is not going to be near as profitable as just sitting down with a priest and learning from him.  Many of the best Orthodox Christians I know wouldn't be able to give you cogent arguments debating the merits of Chalcedonianism or a review of the different interpretations of apocatastasis, but they participate in the Divine Liturgy, they follow the fasts and feasts of the Church, they honor the saints, they reverence holy objects and people, they participate in the sacraments of the Church and they live their life dedicated to the Triune God.  Best wishes on your journey!

EDIT: Iconodule posted while I was typing and said it better than I did.  Tongue
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:46:21 AM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,699



WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 01:17:47 PM »


Welcome to the Forum, Jeremy!

I hope you will find the answers you are looking for.

Technically, yes, those are the councils that we refer to as "the ecumenical councils." However, there are a couple of subsequent councils which are binding for Orthodox and which would fulfill the technical definition of an ecumenical council, even if they are not typically referred to as such. For example, the Palamite synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351, held in Constantinople.

Are those three Palamite synods the only others that are binding besides the seven ecumenical councils? What I'm really trying to ascertain is what all the binding councils are, so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.


This is what we "believe":


The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 01:44:20 PM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.

If I were to become Orthodox (which I'm considering), I would have to agree with all that is official teaching in the OC, i.e., what is required to be believed. Otherwise I would be dishonest and hypocritical. Furthermore, I know that in the Catholic Church, when one takes communion, one is essentially saying by that act, that one agrees to, and submits to, all teaching of that church. If one does not agree to or submit to all that is taught, one is not really in communion with that church, and hence taking communion, for that individual, is hypocritical. I'm kind of assuming that the OC has the same view of taking communion (receiving communion = full assent to all that the OC teaches), but perhaps I'm assuming too much?

No, you are not assuming too much, although think of it as much more than submitting to a static list of official teachings. It is also submitting to the living authority of the Orthodox Church, which, as the Body of the Living Christ, is the sphere of Christ Jesus' redeeming action throughout the ages. As such, the Church exercises a divinely-given spiritual authority to proclaim apostolic truth in today's context. In other words, there are really two areas of submission: (1) the apostolic faith or doctrine, especially as articulated in Scripture, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and (2) the apostolic order, i.e. priesthood/episcopacy, which is also of the esse of the Church, and which exists as a present-day authority in persons, not merely as a historical record in texts.

You might benefit from reading some of the liturgical services used for reception of heterodox into the Church. There are many different versions, written in different pastoral contexts, but most require you (1) to renounce various doctrinal errors (e.g. Calvinism or Papal Supremacy); (2) to submit to the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and; (3) to affirm and confess the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed (this is the most important part).
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 07:14:42 PM »

You might benefit from reading some of the liturgical services used for reception of heterodox into the Church. There are many different versions, written in different pastoral contexts, but most require you (1) to renounce various doctrinal errors (e.g. Calvinism or Papal Supremacy); (2) to submit to the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and; (3) to affirm and confess the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed (this is the most important part).

Can I find the text of this online, and does it have a specific name? I'd be interested in reading it.
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 11:03:30 PM »

Technically, yes, those are the councils that we refer to as "the ecumenical councils." However, there are a couple of subsequent councils which are binding for Orthodox and which would fulfill the technical definition of an ecumenical council, even if they are not typically referred to as such. For example, the Palamite synods of 1341, 1347, and 1351, held in Constantinople.

Are those three Palamite synods the only others that are binding besides the seven ecumenical councils? What I'm really trying to ascertain is what all the binding councils are, so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.

Some might make an exact list of doctrine, but there are things which we believe that are not dogmatized in ecumenical councils, but it would still be strange and possibly impious not to believe them.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,270


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 11:30:21 PM »

Jeremy, this bears repeating:

Spend a year attending as many Orthodox services as possible, especially Vespers, Matins, and the Divine Liturgy, keep your ears open to what is being read, chanted and sung, and keep your eyes open to see what the clergy are doing and what the icons portray. With guidance from the priest, you'll have learned most all of what the Church teaches and believes.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:30:52 PM by LBK » Logged
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 08:56:33 AM »

Jeremy, this bears repeating:

Spend a year attending as many Orthodox services as possible, especially Vespers, Matins, and the Divine Liturgy, keep your ears open to what is being read, chanted and sung, and keep your eyes open to see what the clergy are doing and what the icons portray. With guidance from the priest, you'll have learned most all of what the Church teaches and believes.

Thanks. There are two Orthodox churches very close to me, and I plan to attend services when possible.
Logged

serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,222


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 11:29:32 AM »

You might benefit from reading some of the liturgical services used for reception of heterodox into the Church. There are many different versions, written in different pastoral contexts, but most require you (1) to renounce various doctrinal errors (e.g. Calvinism or Papal Supremacy); (2) to submit to the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and; (3) to affirm and confess the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed (this is the most important part).

Can I find the text of this online, and does it have a specific name? I'd be interested in reading it.

Jeremy,

Pensa is a scholar & has multiple degrees in theology.  He probably wrote that. Himself.

Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Martyr Eugenia
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 12:23:37 PM »

No, you are not assuming too much, although think of it as much more than submitting to a static list of official teachings. It is also submitting to the living authority of the Orthodox Church, which, as the Body of the Living Christ, is the sphere of Christ Jesus' redeeming action throughout the ages. As such, the Church exercises a divinely-given spiritual authority to proclaim apostolic truth in today's context. In other words, there are really two areas of submission: (1) the apostolic faith or doctrine, especially as articulated in Scripture, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and (2) the apostolic order, i.e. priesthood/episcopacy, which is also of the esse of the Church, and which exists as a present-day authority in persons, not merely as a historical record in texts.

You might benefit from reading some of the liturgical services used for reception of heterodox into the Church. There are many different versions, written in different pastoral contexts, but most require you (1) to renounce various doctrinal errors (e.g. Calvinism or Papal Supremacy); (2) to submit to the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and; (3) to affirm and confess the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed (this is the most important part).

Jeremy, as an inquirer who has a little more than a year of 'studying and reading' under my belt PLUS the fact that I was Roman Catholic (who, according to Kallistos Ware in his book, The Orthodox Church, 'with whom we have by far the more in common...') I have already in my post-Catholic and post-Protestant journeys renounced errors and welcomed back the creed and took back Mother Mary (Theotokos)...you WILL never be able to grasp it all in your mind. And if you THINK you have reached a point where you accept all their teachings, you will still have a waiting period that after all these centuries is still vague in context of study and vague in length of time. It will discourage you, it will make you doubt your Christian faith...

Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,515



« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:36:31 PM by Alpo » Logged
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
Logged

TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,194



« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 01:25:01 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.

Feel free to ignore condesending posters.  In case you haven't had the opportunity, Orthodox people seem much nicer IRL than on oc.net.  This includes myself.  I can be a jerk on here quite often unfortunately.  Embarrassed
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,222


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 01:33:14 PM »

^ and the already nice ones are even nicer in person!!
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,515



« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 02:49:10 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.

Feel free to ignore condesending posters.  In case you haven't had the opportunity, Orthodox people seem much nicer IRL than on oc.net.  This includes myself.  I can be a jerk on here quite often unfortunately.  Embarrassed

Wait, my comment was impolite? FYI, I was honestly jealous for Jeremy. I used to be a better Christian before I converted and shortly after conversion.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:49:31 PM by Alpo » Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,194



« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2013, 03:09:46 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.

Feel free to ignore condesending posters.  In case you haven't had the opportunity, Orthodox people seem much nicer IRL than on oc.net.  This includes myself.  I can be a jerk on here quite often unfortunately.  Embarrassed

Wait, my comment was impolite? FYI, I was honestly jealous for Jeremy. I used to be a better Christian before I converted and shortly after conversion.

My apologies.  It sounded as if you were making fun of him.  Understanding motive can be tough whe just reading.  Sorry for rushing to judgement.  Lips Sealed
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,515



« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2013, 03:43:29 PM »

God forgives.  Smiley
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2013, 03:46:37 PM »

You might benefit from reading some of the liturgical services used for reception of heterodox into the Church. There are many different versions, written in different pastoral contexts, but most require you (1) to renounce various doctrinal errors (e.g. Calvinism or Papal Supremacy); (2) to submit to the Seven Ecumenical Councils; and; (3) to affirm and confess the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed (this is the most important part).

Can I find the text of this online, and does it have a specific name? I'd be interested in reading it.

You can download and read Isabel Hapgood's famous 1906 edition/translation of many of the Orthodox services here: http://archive.org/details/ServiceBookOfHolyOrthodoxChurchByHapgood

Page 463 includes a version of the office for reception of heterodox via renunciation of heresies and chrismation.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 04:13:46 PM »

Thanks, pensateomnia.
Logged

pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2013, 04:56:14 PM »

Thanks, pensateomnia.

Sure. I just checked and you should look a bit earlier: 454.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 11:02:53 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us. There are dogmas and basic tenets of the faith, however there is also the Orthodox worldview and spirituality, which also need to be acquired, for Orthodoxy is not a set of beliefs only, but life. When we convert, we are bid to enter into that life. We know something about it when we come in, but we never learn everything there is to know even if we lived on earth a thousand years.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,270


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 11:12:16 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us. There are dogmas and basic tenets of the faith, however there is also the Orthodox worldview and spirituality, which also need to be acquired, for Orthodoxy is not a set of beliefs only, but life. When we convert, we are bid to enter into that life. We know something about it when we come in, but we never learn everything there is to know even if we lived on earth a thousand years.

To add to this very good and useful post, discernment indeed takes many years to acquire, and comes from living the life of the Church, and all that that entails.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Annie Och
Posts: 4,107



« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2013, 11:25:23 PM »

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us. There are dogmas and basic tenets of the faith, however there is also the Orthodox worldview and spirituality, which also need to be acquired, for Orthodoxy is not a set of beliefs only, but life. When we convert, we are bid to enter into that life. We know something about it when we come in, but we never learn everything there is to know even if we lived on earth a thousand years.

I would imagine the basic discernment whether to even pursue becoming Orthodox or not.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2013, 08:08:45 AM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Discernment as to what the OC believes, and therefore what I would have to believe if I were to convert.

Quote
Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us.

I understand. But at the same time I don't think we should throw discernment out the window.

Quote
There are dogmas and basic tenets of the faith, however there is also the Orthodox worldview and spirituality, which also need to be acquired, for Orthodoxy is not a set of beliefs only, but life.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Logged

LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,270


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2013, 08:21:12 AM »


Discernment as to what the OC believes, and therefore what I would have to believe if I were to convert.


The core and essence of what the Church believes is found in the liturgical deposit, i.e. the hymns and prayers of the Church, sung, chanted and read during the services. Icons are its visual counterpart. Both represent and express what the whole Church believes.

Orthodoxy can't be learned or lived through books. It must be lived through the life of the Church. Begin by attending Orthodox services, and by talking to the priest. He should have the ability and experience to guide you.
Logged
Shyness
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 20



« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2013, 08:37:55 AM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Discernment as to what the OC believes, and therefore what I would have to believe if I were to convert.

Quote
Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us.

I understand. But at the same time I don't think we should throw discernment out the window.

Quote
There are dogmas and basic tenets of the faith, however there is also the Orthodox worldview and spirituality, which also need to be acquired, for Orthodoxy is not a set of beliefs only, but life.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Hello Jeremy,

If you want to know what the Orthodox Church believes I recommend you read the Orthodox Catechism. The councils that hold a primacy in the Orthodox Church and are the most binding are the 7 Ecumenical Councils. Most of the local Councils focus on local issues. While there are local Councils that are binding to the Orthodox Church today, I am not knowledgeable enough to provide you the exactness of that. If you need a starting point, start with the Catechism.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:38:47 AM by Shyness » Logged
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 08:59:50 AM »


Discernment as to what the OC believes, and therefore what I would have to believe if I were to convert.


The core and essence of what the Church believes is found in the liturgical deposit, i.e. the hymns and prayers of the Church, sung, chanted and read during the services. Icons are its visual counterpart. Both represent and express what the whole Church believes.

Orthodoxy can't be learned or lived through books. It must be lived through the life of the Church. Begin by attending Orthodox services, and by talking to the priest. He should have the ability and experience to guide you.

I attended part of a Greek Orthodox service last Sunday and plan to continue to do so. I also emailed the priest there to inquire about any kind of instruction for people like me, but so far I haven't heard back. (That was about a week ago.) I plan to call the church soon to talk in person.

One thing about that church I didn't like was that most of the service (at least for the time I was there) was in Greek. There's another OC church near me that does their services in English (visited several times last year).

So I plan to follow your advice, but all the same, I'm the kind of person who likes to know what I believe and why I believe it. I've been reading The Orthodox Church and The Way, and recently I finished How Are We Saved?. So I've been learning quite a bit, but I also realize you're right about attending services and getting together with a priest regularly.
Logged

Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,536


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 09:33:49 AM »

Quote
...so I'll be able to research exactly what the Orthodox are required to believe.
This is curious wording.  I never really thought of the Church's teachings as "requirements" so much as an opportunity to be spiritually educated.  Orthodoxy doesn't really have a concept of "systematic theology" like you will find in western Christianity.

If I were to become Orthodox (which I'm considering), I would have to agree with all that is official teaching in the OC, i.e., what is required to be believed. Otherwise I would be dishonest and hypocritical. Furthermore, I know that in the Catholic Church, when one takes communion, one is essentially saying by that act, that one agrees to, and submits to, all teaching of that church. If one does not agree to or submit to all that is taught, one is not really in communion with that church, and hence taking communion, for that individual, is hypocritical. I'm kind of assuming that the OC has the same view of taking communion (receiving communion = full assent to all that the OC teaches), but perhaps I'm assuming too much?

Not exactly.. You are not required to plumb the depths of every doctrine. Instead you must believe that The Orthodox Church is THE Ancient and Original Church and that she is the Body of Christ, led by the Holy Spirit and therefore can not err ( for very long). That will cover you.

Of course you need to beleive in the basics like the Trinity and the Spiritual identity of Jesus as God ( you cant beleive he was just a good teacher or that sort of thing). But you put your faith in the hands of the Church because you trust her and believe the scriptures as they have laid out the role of The Church.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,536


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2013, 09:36:33 AM »


Discernment as to what the OC believes, and therefore what I would have to believe if I were to convert.


The core and essence of what the Church believes is found in the liturgical deposit, i.e. the hymns and prayers of the Church, sung, chanted and read during the services. Icons are its visual counterpart. Both represent and express what the whole Church believes.

Orthodoxy can't be learned or lived through books. It must be lived through the life of the Church. Begin by attending Orthodox services, and by talking to the priest. He should have the ability and experience to guide you.

I attended part of a Greek Orthodox service last Sunday and plan to continue to do so. I also emailed the priest there to inquire about any kind of instruction for people like me, but so far I haven't heard back. (That was about a week ago.) I plan to call the church soon to talk in person.

One thing about that church I didn't like was that most of the service (at least for the time I was there) was in Greek. There's another OC church near me that does their services in English (visited several times last year).

So I plan to follow your advice, but all the same, I'm the kind of person who likes to know what I believe and why I believe it. I've been reading The Orthodox Church and The Way, and recently I finished How Are We Saved?. So I've been learning quite a bit, but I also realize you're right about attending services and getting together with a priest regularly.

Visit several Orthodox Church's if you can. Some are more open to teaching converts than others.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Martyr Eugenia
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2013, 09:46:43 AM »

I attended part of a Greek Orthodox service last Sunday and plan to continue to do so. I also emailed the priest there to inquire about any kind of instruction for people like me, but so far I haven't heard back. (That was about a week ago.) I plan to call the church soon to talk in person.

One thing about that church I didn't like was that most of the service (at least for the time I was there) was in Greek. There's another OC church near me that does their services in English (visited several times last year).

So I plan to follow your advice, but all the same, I'm the kind of person who likes to know what I believe and why I believe it. I've been reading The Orthodox Church and The Way, and recently I finished How Are We Saved?. So I've been learning quite a bit, but I also realize you're right about attending services and getting together with a priest regularly.

We attended one parish for several months didnt see the priest after services and emails werent returned and no one ever picked up the phone. So I tried during the week, mind you this is an hour away making it a two hour round trip, I inquired about their fall catechism classes as the information on their website wasnt up to date. Got very vague answers as to when it started and how to sign up. Well, I missed the start of the classes. Has to wait a whole 'nuther year for them to start up again...tried another parish, same deal, no answered calls or emails, no priest around after Divine Liturgy. So dont take heed to 'ask the priest'. Find an older orthodox person and sit and ask them questions(dont sit with catechumens and dont sit with recent converts). I found one happy to answer my questions. After several parishes found one that was doing a Bible study, everyone welcomed. Finally, getting to talk to a priest after almost a year. You will find that there really isnt an 'Orthodox catechism'. I have find their approach lacking, more objective than subjective. They do not take you where you are, everyone is a blank slate to them and that is not reality. Again, I say, after 2 millennia you think they would have some inkling on how to disciple.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,556


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2013, 10:07:28 AM »

So dont take heed to 'ask the priest'. Find an older orthodox person and sit and ask them questions(dont sit with catechumens and dont sit with recent converts). I found one happy to answer my questions. After several parishes found one that was doing a Bible study, everyone welcomed. Finally, getting to talk to a priest after almost a year. You will find that there really isnt an 'Orthodox catechism'. I have find their approach lacking, more objective than subjective. They do not take you where you are, everyone is a blank slate to them and that is not reality. Again, I say, after 2 millennia you think they would have some inkling on how to disciple.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience trying to reach a priest at that particular parish.  I don't know where it is or who the priest was, so I can't say how busy or otherwise occupied he was, but it shouldn't take a year to talk to him.  Most priests I've known across many jurisdictions are the opposite: they'll trip over themselves to approach and welcome a visitor.  Even the most "standoffish" priest I've known will still approach and introduce himself to someone he's noticed visit more than once or twice. 

Talking to seasoned members is a good idea; they have lived the faith, are usually very kind (if they're at all willing to entertain questions and discussions like this), and can help you get to know people. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Jeremy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical/exploring Orthodoxy
Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2013, 12:13:46 PM »

I attended part of a Greek Orthodox service last Sunday and plan to continue to do so. I also emailed the priest there to inquire about any kind of instruction for people like me, but so far I haven't heard back. (That was about a week ago.) I plan to call the church soon to talk in person.

One thing about that church I didn't like was that most of the service (at least for the time I was there) was in Greek. There's another OC church near me that does their services in English (visited several times last year).

So I plan to follow your advice, but all the same, I'm the kind of person who likes to know what I believe and why I believe it. I've been reading The Orthodox Church and The Way, and recently I finished How Are We Saved?. So I've been learning quite a bit, but I also realize you're right about attending services and getting together with a priest regularly.

We attended one parish for several months didnt see the priest after services and emails werent returned and no one ever picked up the phone. So I tried during the week, mind you this is an hour away making it a two hour round trip, I inquired about their fall catechism classes as the information on their website wasnt up to date. Got very vague answers as to when it started and how to sign up. Well, I missed the start of the classes. Has to wait a whole 'nuther year for them to start up again...tried another parish, same deal, no answered calls or emails, no priest around after Divine Liturgy. So dont take heed to 'ask the priest'. Find an older orthodox person and sit and ask them questions(dont sit with catechumens and dont sit with recent converts). I found one happy to answer my questions. After several parishes found one that was doing a Bible study, everyone welcomed. Finally, getting to talk to a priest after almost a year. You will find that there really isnt an 'Orthodox catechism'. I have find their approach lacking, more objective than subjective. They do not take you where you are, everyone is a blank slate to them and that is not reality. Again, I say, after 2 millennia you think they would have some inkling on how to disciple.

Thanks for sharing; that's helpful. I actually called up the church office a little while ago and spoke with the secretary. She was very friendly and answered my questions. I found out that there are two divine liturgies on Sunday mornings, which helps me out a lot (going to an earlier one is better for me), and I also found out that there is a Saturday Bible study as well as an adult catechetical class on Sunday mornings. I'll have to contact the people involved in those, but I feel like now I'm moving somewhere. :-)

As far as the priest's not answering my email, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that and assume he has been very busy, has been away from the area on a trip, or something else that would keep him from responding sooner. It could also be that he is not a digital geek like me and, consequently, checks his email only once or twice a week.
Logged

Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2013, 03:50:11 PM »

An inquirer compiling a list of councils? That's almost cute. I wish I was as enthusiastic and full of zeal again.

It's not so much zeal and enthusiasm as wanting to exercise discernment.
'

Discernment how?

Becoming Orthodox requires the humility to submit oneself to the Church and her teaching, which is over us.

I think inquirers want to exercise discernment in figuring out which (if either) of the One True Church(s) is THE One True Churchtm.  After that, then of course the appropriate response would be humility in submiting to the 'Church and her teaching'.
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Shyness
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 20



« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2013, 04:44:56 PM »

It comes natural for people to want to have discerning and knowledge and understanting of what a certain faith, being it even Orthodoxy, teaches. I don't understand those responses that argue against this.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2013, 10:48:12 PM »

It comes natural for people to want to have discerning and knowledge and understanting of what a certain faith, being it even Orthodoxy, teaches. I don't understand those responses that argue against this.

I don't see anyone here arguing against it. It's just that there's a lot to deal with and it's essential to learn in context because, again, being Orthodox is not just giving intellectual assent to dogmas, but real spiritual life and struggle.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Knee V
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 227



« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2013, 01:10:03 PM »

Any council that proclaims the Orthodox faith and is received by the Church is "binding", in a sense. However, not all canons from all councils are necessarily binding on all the faithful. Thus, if a council in Serbia dealt with a certain theological problem in their local church and at the same time used that council to deal with some administrative matters in their own synod, as long as the faith was properly upheld, one could look to that council to deal with whatever error they fought against. But their specific canons may not apply everywhere, as not all synods would necessarily have those unique administrative problems to deal with.

Also, I would use the words "received" and "applicable" and not "binding".

On another note, there is often some confusion regarding the 7 Ecumenical Councils. Those 7 councils are "ecumenical" for a very specific reason. The term "ecumenical" pertains to the administration of the Roman Empire, and that word only has relevance in the context of the Roman Empire. When a council was convened, it was either received or it was not. If it was received and if all 5 Patriarchs (although there are more than 5 now) ratified the council, the Emperor would then make that council part of Roman law. Thus an "ecumenical council" is a council that was made Roman law by the Roman Emperor. It is for a very similar reason that the Patriarch of Constantinople is referred to as the "Ecumenical Patriarch", because he was the Patriarch of the Capital of the Empire (thus, imho, since there is no longer a Roman Empire, the title of "Ecumenical Patriarch" is technically meaningless). Also, it is for that reason that there will never again be another "ecumenical council", as there is no longer a Roman Empire. But that doesn't mean that there are no longer councils that are applicable and which the Church receives.

So I would say, as others have said, that we shouldn't worry about finding what is or is not "binding". Rather, it is better to try to submit to the Church and to try to acquire the mind of the Church
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 09:43:16 AM »

I think your best bet is to attend as many services as possible, of as many types as possible, and to witness as much of the church life as possible, during the course of a year, and to follow along and/or read in a service book what has been said or chanted, and to think about it.  From all that is sung in the Divine Liturgy, the Hours, the Royal Hours, you will see most clearly what Holy Tradition has preserved for us to believe.  Church fathers might disagree on this point or that point, or its interpretation; but if it has made its way into the official prayers of the church, it has great force.  For we pray what we believe.  I think that is a safe statement.

If you study exclusively the writings of the councils you might get some weird and incorrect interpretations.  Just as the epistles were written, the councils were intended to combat serious problems confronting the church.  And their statements are very specific as to these problems.  To the extent that the problems went away, or now present themselves under different forms, literal application of some of the canons of the councils could lead to ridiculous results.  The general principles underlying each canon - the reason that the council said as it did - are still applicable today.  Thus, one has to understand very well what they were written to prevent or to affirm, and how that may relate to a problem facing us now.  You would need someone very experienced to tell you how exactly such a canon might apply today.  That is why we live out our faith in community, drawing on the richness of Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit, to guide us forward safely, and do not depend upon private interpretations.

I concur with what has been written, it is not enough to say that, "I believe that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary," although this is true, and necessary.  But a statement such as this says something about Christ, and it says something about humanity, and it ultimately says something about how the two are intended to relate, which guides us on our path to salvation.  We must believe, yes, but I would posit that it is ultimately what we do in response to these beliefs that is most important.  As it is written, For even the devils believe.

It is perhaps more productive, rather than to say, Does the Church teach what is true?, to say, Is this the true Church which Christ has founded, and has preserved His teaching to the present day?  If you are able to answer the second question in the affirmative, there is little need to resolve the first question piecemeal.

Just my two cents.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.167 seconds with 70 queries.