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Author Topic: To Torture or Not to Torture...that is the essay question.  (Read 2726 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2013, 09:51:39 AM »

but I recognize that governments often have to do distasteful and disagreeable things in order to protect their citizenry.

of course. defend your class society built upon violence. get drunk in blood like everyone else. good to those that had their spirits deformed to save "thousands" and "millions".

Yeah. That is exactly what I was advocating.  Roll Eyes

I will come back to this thread maybe and explain why the obsession with torture on both sides of the so-called aisle serve the same ideological ends.

But as someone who often shares my sense of humor and politics said, "do we really want to live in a society that feels free to discuss when it is OK to rape women."

If yes, then enjoy most of the posts in this thread.

If no, then you need to start asking a lot of questions which simply are not being raised.
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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2013, 09:59:55 AM »


Actually, this scenario is a present reality every day. Every day in America, thousands of innocent people are murdered. We have the ability to prevent their murders. It would seem obvious that the most certain way to prevent the murders of innocent unborn babies would be to kill the abortionists before they kill these babies. It is not our lives that are threatened, but the lives of thousands of innocent children. So, is it a Christian act to use violence to save these innocents? If not, then why would it be a Christian act to use violence in other situations?


This was actually a very good comparison.

I would never think to hurt the doctor, because his life is just as valuable as the children's.

Good point.
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2013, 10:19:13 AM »

but I recognize that governments often have to do distasteful and disagreeable things in order to protect their citizenry.

of course. defend your class society built upon violence. get drunk in blood like everyone else. good to those that had their spirits deformed to save "thousands" and "millions".

Yeah. That is exactly what I was advocating.  Roll Eyes

I will come back to this thread maybe and explain why the obsession with torture on both sides of the so-called aisle serve the same ideological ends.

But as someone who often shares my sense of humor and politics said, "do we really want to live in a society that feels free to discuss when it is OK to rape women."

If yes, then enjoy most of the posts in this thread.

If no, then you need to start asking a lot of questions which simply are not being raised.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here, so I look forward to your explanation.
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2013, 10:45:46 AM »

It's the lives of innocents that would be going "to hell" not abstract notions of justice. Their lives, the pain of their relatives and the fear of society of being unprotected in face of terrorists would be the price for you not feeling miserable and being able to sleep at night.

The world is not God. The world does put us in situation where there are no good choices. To choose based on what would make *me* not feel emotional pain is the most selfish and imoral perspective of all.

3 - We have to balance morality on other issues as well: justice and number.
to hell with justice or whatever we call justice.

justice will not make me less miserable. whatever men under the spiritually draining world we called class society think of justice generally reduces to getting drunk out of retribution

im glad people value men less than maggots in this thread, but i cannot stand for men to be blasted into torture chambers

the responses in this thread are nothing short of horrific but not really surprising from the usual suspects.


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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2013, 11:00:38 AM »

I remember actually arguing FOR torture a year or two ago on this board....now I'm not so sure. This is certainly a toughie.

PP
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2013, 11:04:46 AM »

Reading this thread could be regarded as torture in some circles  Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »

I remember actually arguing FOR torture a year or two ago on this board....now I'm not so sure. This is certainly a toughie.

PP
again another issue where you can't decide on where you stand.

have a little backbone sheesh
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« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2013, 11:17:33 AM »

I remember actually arguing FOR torture a year or two ago on this board....now I'm not so sure. This is certainly a toughie.

PP
again another issue where you can't decide on where you stand.

have a little backbone sheesh
I just dont like to make snap judgments on subjects. There is nothing wrong with questioning why one believes things. This is one of them.

Go pester someone else for a while.

PP
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« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2013, 11:52:25 AM »

I remember actually arguing FOR torture a year or two ago on this board....now I'm not so sure. This is certainly a toughie.

PP
again another issue where you can't decide on where you stand.

have a little backbone sheesh
I just dont like to make snap judgments on subjects. There is nothing wrong with questioning why one believes things. This is one of them.

Go pester someone else for a while.

PP

I completely agree.

There is no need for snap judgments.

I wish more folks would put some thought in to what they believe and why they believe it.
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« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2013, 11:56:48 AM »

I remember actually arguing FOR torture a year or two ago on this board....now I'm not so sure. This is certainly a toughie.

PP
again another issue where you can't decide on where you stand.

have a little backbone sheesh
I just dont like to make snap judgments on subjects. There is nothing wrong with questioning why one believes things. This is one of them.

Go pester someone else for a while.

PP

I completely agree.

There is no need for snap judgments.

I wish more folks would put some thought in to what they believe and why they believe it.

this is a topic that does not require much thought for a "judgement".

unless you are trying to be piously self serving I guess
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« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2013, 12:23:37 PM »

Reading this thread board could be regarded as torture in some circles  Smiley

Fixed it  Grin!
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« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2013, 12:30:51 PM »


LOL!  It can be, at times.

I don't understand why everyone simply can't think the way that I do!  Wink
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« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2013, 01:24:11 PM »


LOL!  It can be, at times.

I don't understand why everyone simply can't think the way that I do!  Wink

You took the words right outta my mouth  Grin Grin!
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2013, 03:55:12 PM »

It seems this is a school assignment.  He's in 9th Grade....can he possibly be able to answer such a difficult question?

Honestly, hearing that this was an assignment, kind of angered me.  Why put this burden on 15 year old kids?  What do they know?

Ah, you never considered questions like these when you were 15?
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2013, 04:04:04 PM »


No.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2013, 05:30:43 PM »

Ah, you never considered questions like these when you were 15?

I wrote a speech on Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear warfare when I was 17 years old.  It probably would get me kicked out of high school today.  BTW - I advocated the use of gas, but stood steadfastly opposed to nuclear and biological warfare.  The next year I wrote a research paper on the use of mercenaries in modern warfare.  I got the highest marks for both of those.  So, discussing torture at 15 does not seem too out of line.  But this is a much different world today. 
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2013, 07:13:16 PM »

Perhaps you are correct.  We will see one day.  However, I believe that God will judge those that stood by while the innocent were slaughtered the same as He will judge those that slaughtered them.  That is the basic difference in philosophy that causes such a divergence in our opinions.


Dear Liza,

I wish everyone thought as deeply about and agonized as much over this issue as you have. I believe that it is evidence of true Christian character to be uncertain and wrestle with such complex issues of life and death, torture, human rights, etc. Some things are clearly wrong, like abortion. But examples like this one are much more complex. So, FWIW, I will offer my two cents:

I think the Christian act is to always err on the side of never actively harming or killing anyone. God is in sovereign control of the potentialities and the consequences. Christ has instructed us to actively love all people, even those who are evil. We assume that torture would save thousands of lives. But what if rather than torturing this individual we loved him and preached Christ to him? Perhaps his heart would be converted and those thousands of lives would still be saved. We know that the truth and love of the gospel has power to save anyone. So my answer would be to trust in the spiritual power of love and the eternal power of the gospel rather than in the temporal power of torture and violence.

Ultimately, God will avenge the innocent and recompense the evildoer. I don't think we will be condemned on Judgment Day for trusting in the power of love and nonviolence rather than in the power of our own violent force.

Just my thoughts.


Selam

...and therein lies the dilemma.

If it were merely "my" life on the line, that would be one thing.

But, this is thousands of lives.



Actually, this scenario is a present reality every day. Every day in America, thousands of innocent people are murdered. We have the ability to prevent their murders. It would seem obvious that the most certain way to prevent the murders of innocent unborn babies would be to kill the abortionists before they kill these babies. It is not our lives that are threatened, but the lives of thousands of innocent children. So, is it a Christian act to use violence to save these innocents? If not, then why would it be a Christian act to use violence in other situations?

There are nonviolent ways to intervene and save unborn lives. Nonviolent direct action may not seem as effective in saving lives as killing an abortionist would be; but as Christians our actions and beliefs should not be based upon pure pragmatism, but rather on Christian principle. The Gospel is not a pragmatic message. The Christian witness throughout history has always been mocked by the world as weak, naïve, and foolish. The Cross appeared to be the epitome of defeat, but in reality it was the supreme act of eternal victory.

So, we follow the Teachings of Our Lord and actively love even the wicked. And as I said before, we have no right to assume that violence and torture will be more effective than love and Christian witness. Will we trust in the power of the Gospel to transform minds and hearts, or will we trust in our own might and strength?

There is nothing idle about following Christ and loving our enemies. St. Moses the Ethiopian "allowed" his fellow monks to be killed along with himself because he refused to kill any longer. Was he condemned for apathy or idleness? Our Lord "allowed" His disciples to be tortured and killed because He refused to come down off the Cross and slay those who would kill His followers. But I dare not accuse Our Lord or the Saints of apathy, indifference, or idleness. God forbid!

One last thing to consider... Since the Incarnation of Our Lord, I can't think of a single instance in history where a thousand guilty people were killed without innocent people also being killed or injured in the process. The violence of man always leaves the blood of the innocent in its wake. Therefore, human violence is inherently unjust. So let us sheathe our swords and unleash our prayers. Let us agitate, confront, sacrifice, and actively love, but let us never torture or kill. Let us not assume that an infinite God can only work through our finite acts of violence. Instead, let us trust in the spiritual weapons that have been issued to us by our eternal Savior.  


Selam

I agree with you and would like to say that the greatest act of Nonviolent action in the US was by Martin luther King, who did with non violent protest what the Civil War could not do.

It is also true that MLK modeled his effort on another great achievement of this type by the people of India under the guidance of Gandhi.

God taught us this when he overcame all with his sons greatest sacrifice, and sent the disciples not to start a war, as the Jews were hoping, but to spread his word and to die in his name while using his actions in the face of the violence that was done to the Lord, without striking back as God could have done easily, was the greatest thing they could do.

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Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2013, 03:09:42 AM »

And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2013, 03:38:12 AM »

Perhaps you are correct.  We will see one day.  However, I believe that God will judge those that stood by while the innocent were slaughtered the same as He will judge those that slaughtered them.  That is the basic difference in philosophy that causes such a divergence in our opinions.


Dear Liza,

I wish everyone thought as deeply about and agonized as much over this issue as you have. I believe that it is evidence of true Christian character to be uncertain and wrestle with such complex issues of life and death, torture, human rights, etc. Some things are clearly wrong, like abortion. But examples like this one are much more complex. So, FWIW, I will offer my two cents:

I think the Christian act is to always err on the side of never actively harming or killing anyone. God is in sovereign control of the potentialities and the consequences. Christ has instructed us to actively love all people, even those who are evil. We assume that torture would save thousands of lives. But what if rather than torturing this individual we loved him and preached Christ to him? Perhaps his heart would be converted and those thousands of lives would still be saved. We know that the truth and love of the gospel has power to save anyone. So my answer would be to trust in the spiritual power of love and the eternal power of the gospel rather than in the temporal power of torture and violence.

Ultimately, God will avenge the innocent and recompense the evildoer. I don't think we will be condemned on Judgment Day for trusting in the power of love and nonviolence rather than in the power of our own violent force.

Just my thoughts.


Selam

...and therein lies the dilemma.

If it were merely "my" life on the line, that would be one thing.

But, this is thousands of lives.



Actually, this scenario is a present reality every day. Every day in America, thousands of innocent people are murdered. We have the ability to prevent their murders. It would seem obvious that the most certain way to prevent the murders of innocent unborn babies would be to kill the abortionists before they kill these babies. It is not our lives that are threatened, but the lives of thousands of innocent children. So, is it a Christian act to use violence to save these innocents? If not, then why would it be a Christian act to use violence in other situations?

There are nonviolent ways to intervene and save unborn lives. Nonviolent direct action may not seem as effective in saving lives as killing an abortionist would be; but as Christians our actions and beliefs should not be based upon pure pragmatism, but rather on Christian principle. The Gospel is not a pragmatic message. The Christian witness throughout history has always been mocked by the world as weak, naïve, and foolish. The Cross appeared to be the epitome of defeat, but in reality it was the supreme act of eternal victory.

So, we follow the Teachings of Our Lord and actively love even the wicked. And as I said before, we have no right to assume that violence and torture will be more effective than love and Christian witness. Will we trust in the power of the Gospel to transform minds and hearts, or will we trust in our own might and strength?

There is nothing idle about following Christ and loving our enemies. St. Moses the Ethiopian "allowed" his fellow monks to be killed along with himself because he refused to kill any longer. Was he condemned for apathy or idleness? Our Lord "allowed" His disciples to be tortured and killed because He refused to come down off the Cross and slay those who would kill His followers. But I dare not accuse Our Lord or the Saints of apathy, indifference, or idleness. God forbid!

One last thing to consider... Since the Incarnation of Our Lord, I can't think of a single instance in history where a thousand guilty people were killed without innocent people also being killed or injured in the process. The violence of man always leaves the blood of the innocent in its wake. Therefore, human violence is inherently unjust. So let us sheathe our swords and unleash our prayers. Let us agitate, confront, sacrifice, and actively love, but let us never torture or kill. Let us not assume that an infinite God can only work through our finite acts of violence. Instead, let us trust in the spiritual weapons that have been issued to us by our eternal Savior.  


Selam

I agree with you and would like to say that the greatest act of Nonviolent action in the US was by Martin luther King, who did with non violent protest what the Civil War could not do.

It is also true that MLK modeled his effort on another great achievement of this type by the people of India under the guidance of Gandhi.

God taught us this when he overcame all with his sons greatest sacrifice, and sent the disciples not to start a war, as the Jews were hoping, but to spread his word and to die in his name while using his actions in the face of the violence that was done to the Lord, without striking back as God could have done easily, was the greatest thing they could do.

Mathew 5
Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Amen my friend. Amen.


Selam
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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2013, 05:54:08 PM »

The tangent on whether we should have nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been moved to Politics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23353.msg934001.html#msg934001
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« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2013, 02:56:00 AM »

Well, in most of my life since I am American of course I have been pushed more to be in favor of torture because we do it, "for the end justifies the means"


But I feel it should not be done now, ever. For instance, if we are all created in the image of God, even muslim terrorists, are we still not in some sense torturing the image of God when conducting torture?

It reminds me, one byzantine emperor ( I do not know which) said to respect prisoners of war, and to treat them well because even though they are enemies (and usually also heathens) they were still created in the image of God and should be respected.


I feel even in this hypothetical scenario, I should still say no do not torture him because this life is not the one we will live forever in...





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« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2013, 02:58:06 AM »

but some more random thoughts



But at the same time, in history the church has sentenced heretics to death. but you are killing one who was made in the image of God!!! but well, they still did it... so perhaps it can be argued that if one is against God that it is justifiable, such as torture to save others...

but I do not like that thinking

(wow, three buts in a row I noticed...)
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« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2013, 04:31:50 AM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed
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« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2013, 05:56:58 AM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed

I understand. I know exactly how you feel. If I am ever persuaded that violence is the appropriate Christian response to evil, then I can assure you that I have some plans already worked out in my mind. But the bottom line is that - in spite of my hypothetical plots - I realize that I can never exact the vengeance that God alone can exact. The evildoers won't escape divine wrath, and the innocent shall "bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." [Psalm 58:10] The wicked flourish for a season, but justice shall prevail eternally. Trust this.


Selam
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« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2013, 03:41:51 PM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed

I understand. I know exactly how you feel. If I am ever persuaded that violence is the appropriate Christian response to evil, then I can assure you that I have some plans already worked out in my mind. But the bottom line is that - in spite of my hypothetical plots - I realize that I can never exact the vengeance that God alone can exact. The evildoers won't escape divine wrath, and the innocent shall "bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." [Psalm 58:10] The wicked flourish for a season, but justice shall prevail eternally. Trust this.


Selam
In a way you are right. Still, life in an American prison seems somewhat lenient for such a crime.
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« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2013, 04:07:44 PM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed

I understand. I know exactly how you feel. If I am ever persuaded that violence is the appropriate Christian response to evil, then I can assure you that I have some plans already worked out in my mind. But the bottom line is that - in spite of my hypothetical plots - I realize that I can never exact the vengeance that God alone can exact. The evildoers won't escape divine wrath, and the innocent shall "bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." [Psalm 58:10] The wicked flourish for a season, but justice shall prevail eternally. Trust this.


Selam

All that assumes that the evildoers will not convert, repent, and confess, though, doesn't it?
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« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2013, 06:19:01 PM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed

They were also very content that their judgements were justified in Jerusalem on what we now call Good Friday.

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal , which he said can be forgiven, except the sin of rejecting him, your pronouncement is no different than the people made on the whore for stoning, we are not any better judge than they,  for which Jesus reply was that the one without sin should throw the first stone. Are we sinless?

This is what God says .
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« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2013, 10:12:10 PM »

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal ...
I missed the part where He said that all sin was equal. Are you putting words into His mouth, words which He really did not say at all? Is it all right to put your own words and your own opinions  into the mouth of Jesus Christ and make Him say things which He did not really say at all?  I don't believe that all sin is equal. Where specifically did Jesus Christ teach: "All sin is equal."
Take for example one person who steals a five cent used pencil from school. And another who without provocation goes around shooting children in the head.  I don't believe these sins to be equal. In one case, no one is harmed and the loss is very small and practically unnoticeable. Still it is a sin of theft.  In the other case, people's lives are ruined forever. Society has to have a way to deter maladjusted punks from hurting innocent people. My sympathy lies with the family who has been victimised by this horrible and painful  crime.
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« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2013, 10:24:25 PM »

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal ...
I missed the part where He said that all sin was equal. Are you putting words into His mouth, words which He really did not say at all? Is it all right to put your own words and your own opinions  into the mouth of Jesus Christ and make Him say things which He did not really say at all?  I don't believe that all sin is equal. Where specifically did Jesus Christ teach: "All sin is equal."
Take for example one person who steals a five cent used pencil from school. And another who without provocation goes around shooting children in the head.  I don't believe these sins to be equal. In one case, no one is harmed and the loss is very small and practically unnoticeable. Still it is a sin of theft.  In the other case, people's lives are ruined forever. Society has to have a way to deter maladjusted punks from hurting innocent people. My sympathy lies with the family who has been victimised by this horrible and painful  crime.

what is heavier, 200 pounds of gravel or a 100 pound boulder?
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« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2013, 10:46:32 PM »

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal ...
I missed the part where He said that all sin was equal. Are you putting words into His mouth, words which He really did not say at all? Is it all right to put your own words and your own opinions  into the mouth of Jesus Christ and make Him say things which He did not really say at all?  I don't believe that all sin is equal. Where specifically did Jesus Christ teach: "All sin is equal."
Take for example one person who steals a five cent used pencil from school. And another who without provocation goes around shooting children in the head.  I don't believe these sins to be equal. In one case, no one is harmed and the loss is very small and practically unnoticeable. Still it is a sin of theft.  In the other case, people's lives are ruined forever. Society has to have a way to deter maladjusted punks from hurting innocent people. My sympathy lies with the family who has been victimised by this horrible and painful  crime.

what is heavier, 200 pounds of gravel or a 100 pound boulder?

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
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« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2013, 04:55:22 AM »

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal ...
I missed the part where He said that all sin was equal. Are you putting words into His mouth, words which He really did not say at all? Is it all right to put your own words and your own opinions  into the mouth of Jesus Christ and make Him say things which He did not really say at all?  I don't believe that all sin is equal. Where specifically did Jesus Christ teach: "All sin is equal."
Take for example one person who steals a five cent used pencil from school. And another who without provocation goes around shooting children in the head.  I don't believe these sins to be equal. In one case, no one is harmed and the loss is very small and practically unnoticeable. Still it is a sin of theft.  In the other case, people's lives are ruined forever. Society has to have a way to deter maladjusted punks from hurting innocent people. My sympathy lies with the family who has been victimised by this horrible and painful  crime.

what is heavier, 200 pounds of gravel or a 100 pound boulder?

I wish Christianity would leave such nonsense to Eastern religions and Yoda.
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« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2013, 07:02:52 AM »

I think we could bear in mind that forensic science is much more advanced today than in ancient times. It used to be that you either needed eyewitness testimony or a confession, since the legal system did not have a sound way to interpret evidence that couldn't talk back. In that context, one can imagine how torture could be seen as a necessary, if regrettable from a Christian point of view, part of legal process.

I don't think you can argue that torture is intrinsically un-Christian, any more than capital or corporal punishment. All these are cruel, but cruelty has always been recognized as necessary to avert greater evils. The question should be more practical: in this day and age, do we actually need to torture people, or to execute them, or to sentence them to beatings or mutilation, in order to enforce the law and maintain stability and security?
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« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2013, 12:31:07 PM »

I think we could bear in mind that forensic science is much more advanced today than in ancient times. It used to be that you either needed eyewitness testimony or a confession, since the legal system did not have a sound way to interpret evidence that couldn't talk back. In that context, one can imagine how torture could be seen as a necessary, if regrettable from a Christian point of view, part of legal process.

I don't think you can argue that torture is intrinsically un-Christian, any more than capital or corporal punishment. All these are cruel, but cruelty has always been recognized as necessary to avert greater evils. The question should be more practical: in this day and age, do we actually need to torture people, or to execute them, or to sentence them to beatings or mutilation, in order to enforce the law and maintain stability and security?

Interesting. I tend to agree.

The entire concept of civil liberty and limits seems always to be viewed as an adaptative process built on a framework of  assumed and generally accepted "givens." Murder is bad" probably being universally at the core ( of course defining "murder" can be contentious in its own right.) .

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« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2013, 01:40:43 PM »

Generally, I am opposed to torture. However, I might have to rethink this after reading the American news recently. A woman was taking her baby in a carriage, strolling pleasantly in a park, when all of a sudden, without provocation,  a punk (or two) with a gun came, demanded money and then shot the child in the face, dead in the carriage. AFAIK, this was a true story. I don't know if life in prison or if the death penalty is too lenient for such punks. Perhaps torture is in order for such crimes.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed

I understand. I know exactly how you feel. If I am ever persuaded that violence is the appropriate Christian response to evil, then I can assure you that I have some plans already worked out in my mind. But the bottom line is that - in spite of my hypothetical plots - I realize that I can never exact the vengeance that God alone can exact. The evildoers won't escape divine wrath, and the innocent shall "bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." [Psalm 58:10] The wicked flourish for a season, but justice shall prevail eternally. Trust this.


Selam

All that assumes that the evildoers will not convert, repent, and confess, though, doesn't it?

Well, if they're still evildoers at the Day of Judgment, then that means they haven't repented. Of course, we all need to examine our own hearts first and beg God's mercy for our own souls. But as I have frequently pointed out, one of the reasons I am a pacifist is because I don't want to rob anyone of the opportunity to repent by destroying their lives.


Selam
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« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2013, 02:24:26 PM »

Personally, I'd rather ten guilty people go free than to have even one innocent person tortured or convicted for a crime he didn't commit. In the American legal system (at least in theory) you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That being said, when would be the appropriate time to torture someone? Before they are proven guilty? Then legally, you would be torturing an innocent person and I don't agree with that. After they have been proven guilty? Well why would you even need to torture them anymore if they have already bee proven guilty and thus probably already confessed everything they know and did?
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« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2013, 03:16:18 PM »

Jesus taught that all have sinned, and all sin is equal , which he said can be forgiven, except the sin of rejecting him, your pronouncement is no different than the people made on the whore for stoning, we are not any better judge than they,  for which Jesus reply was that the one without sin should throw the first stone.
If all sin is equal, why should the punishment vary?
Luke 12:47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."
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« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2013, 07:25:47 PM »

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man went to hell simply because he ignored Lazarus, while God has forgiven murderers such as Moses and David, and Jesus took the thief crucified next to him, to paradise that day.

Jesus said it was harder for the rich man to go to heaven, why did he not say the usual we here today about the crazy murderer, because the rich man never understands what he does is sinful, therefore he does not repent or ask God's forgiveness, therefore he goes to Hell while the murderer who hates what he has done because he is sick , and asks God to forgive him is in heaven.

The issue is we cannot understand things as we cannot see them as God does. Thus we were instructed to forgive, Love your enemies,Judge not, lest you be judged.

All sin is equal because all sin can be forgiven.

Mark 3:28
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Here is what a learned book says about the passage you Quoted,
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
12:41-53 All are to take to themselves what Christ says in his word, and to inquire concerning it. No one is left so ignorant as not to know many things to be wrong which he does, and many things to be right which he neglects; therefore all are without excuse in their sin. The bringing in the gospel dispensation would occasion desolations. Not that this would be the tendency of Christ's religion, which is pure, peaceable, and loving; but the effect of its being contrary to men's pride and lusts. There was to be a wide publication of the gospel. But before that took place, Christ had a baptism to be baptized with, far different from that of water and the Holy Spirit. He must endure sufferings and death. It agreed not with his plan to preach the gospel more widely, till this baptism was completed. We should be zealous in making known the truth, for though divisions will be stirred up, and a man's own household may be his foes, yet sinners will be converted, and God will be glorified.


 It is easy to take things like that literally, just like the one about  taking up swords is always misconstrued , as the Lord above all else taught that God wants MERCY. He wants you to humbly admit your sin and make an effort to change.Thus you can be forgiven any sin.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 07:46:26 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2013, 07:46:17 PM »

All sin is equal because all sin can be forgiven.
I don't see where Jesus taught that all sin is equal. I read that He taught that some sin is greater than others. John 19: 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
Let's take another example. Suppose at work, the boss tells you that the Xerox machine is to be used for business only. For any personal copies, you must pay five cents per copy. Suppose then that you make one personal copy and don't pay the five cents that is due to the boss. That would be a sin of theft. How is that equal to a sin (reported in the American news as linked to above) where,without provocation,  a punk shoots a baby child in the face and kills the child? One sin is quite small, and almost negligible, whereas the other is a huge sin, deserving of severe punishment, perhaps even some kind of torture. This type of crime is horrific.
Further, the Bible says that the punishment will vary according to where someone guilty of a greater sin shall receive many lashes, whereas someone guilty of a lessor sin receives only a few lashes. Luke 12: 46-48.
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« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2013, 08:36:22 PM »

All sins can be forgiven, so what else is there to say, that you are not a good Judge, none are.
You do not seem to have read what I wrote, nor understand the commentary I posted from a notable source who does not agree with yours.

If God is willing to forgive those who have murdered in the Bible, what makes you better than Moses who murdered out of his infamous temper, or David who murdered for the woman he was committing adultery with.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Jesus is plainly telling us that the one with more sin is forgiven, while the one who thinks he is perfect is headed to damnation.

It is not the sin that God looks at, because in his eyes all fall short of his goodness, none deserve his mercy, it is a gift of his Grace.

This is also why it is said you cannot earn salvation, if you could then you have no need for our Lord and savior Jesus , you can just act as the Jews who think they are righteous and who like the parable above plainly shows, it is the righteous who are damned if they think that they do not need to humble themselves.

Also in the communion prayer at an Eastern Orthodox church we are supposed to read before approaching the altar, I count myself among the sinners, of which I am the worst .

It is our duty to humble ourselves, God will decide who is worthy of mercy.
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« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2013, 08:42:01 PM »

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Just because all sin can be forgiven does not make it equal.

All products in the store can be bought, but that doesn't make them the same price.

There are more serious, graver sins and there are less serious sins.  The priest does not give the same penance for every sin.

We are not to judge which sins are worse, we are to flee all sins, but God, who is judge, looks at our lives, He will judge some sins more harshly than others.  If He didn't, He wouldn't be a judge, He would be an accountant just counting up sins.
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« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2013, 08:12:53 PM »

Jesus when confronted with the question of whether they should stone the whore, he said to them the one without sin cast the first stone, he did not specify the sin.

In your definition , the one who did no more than tell white lies all his life, should then feel free to stone her.

◄  James 2:10  ►

New International Version (©2011)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


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« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2013, 09:56:03 AM »

Jesus when confronted with the question of whether they should stone the whore, he said to them the one without sin cast the first stone, he did not specify the sin.

In your definition , the one who did no more than tell white lies all his life, should then feel free to stone her.

◄  James 2:10  ►

New International Version (©2011)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


Still not following your logic. My definition does not say that at all and does not contradict what Christ said.  Scripture even states that a sin can be so great as to be unforgivable (i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).  The only time I have heard what you are arguing is in evangelical circles, not in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2013, 10:18:31 AM »

Jesus when confronted with the question of whether they should stone the whore, he said to them the one without sin cast the first stone, he did not specify the sin.

In your definition , the one who did no more than tell white lies all his life, should then feel free to stone her.

◄  James 2:10  ►

New International Version (©2011)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


Still not following your logic. My definition does not say that at all and does not contradict what Christ said.  Scripture even states that a sin can be so great as to be unforgivable (i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).  The only time I have heard what you are arguing is in evangelical circles, not in Orthodoxy.

Sorry, but I agree with whatever was posted that you are replying to. Those triangles have me bewitched.
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« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2013, 10:20:40 AM »

I shall humbly submit to the triangles then.  Grin
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« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2013, 11:34:10 AM »

I shall humbly submit to the triangles then.  Grin

How'd he do that, anyway??  You know, the triangle thingees.  Huh Huh
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