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Author Topic: How soon to have kids after marriage starts  (Read 3455 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 09:15:33 PM »

Here's my bottled Orthodox reply:

Avoid intercourse on fast days, and on the nights before and after you receive Communion. Otherwise, have intercourse whenever you both want to, without using contraception, and trust in God.

If you don't like my bottled reply, try from the tap, i.e. your priest. Wink

Bingo.

Sad to see such worldly replies here.
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 09:58:27 PM »

Here's my bottled Orthodox reply:

Avoid intercourse on fast days, and on the nights before and after you receive Communion. Otherwise, have intercourse whenever you both want to, without using contraception, and trust in God.

If you don't like my bottled reply, try from the tap, i.e. your priest. Wink

Bingo.

Sad to see such worldly replies here.

I'm a bit confused as to why a couple cannot have sex the night before or soon after receiving Holy Communion.  What is the rationale behind such a teaching?  BTW, that is a sincere question. 
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 11:25:40 PM »

There is a belief that you should fast from intercourse like you do from food, thus the fasting the night before. The night after is somewhat new to me.

It seems like only the REALLY old fashioned Orthodox, or the new converts do this. We as a couple have never done this. If we had, there would have literally been multiple years in a row that we couldn't do anything with the scheduling of the fasts, deployments, military training, and births of children. Our Khouria felt bad for my husband that he couldn't "do anything" when he came home on leave for the birth of our 4th child. She quite literally felt bad for him that he had to go over a year without intercourse. I imagine she isn't alone in this belief Wink
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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2013, 05:41:48 AM »

There is a belief that you should fast from intercourse like you do from food, thus the fasting the night before. The night after is somewhat new to me.

It seems like only the REALLY old fashioned Orthodox, or the new converts do this. We as a couple have never done this. If we had, there would have literally been multiple years in a row that we couldn't do anything with the scheduling of the fasts, deployments, military training, and births of children. Our Khouria felt bad for my husband that he couldn't "do anything" when he came home on leave for the birth of our 4th child. She quite literally felt bad for him that he had to go over a year without intercourse. I imagine she isn't alone in this belief Wink

Some sources I've read argue that you don't need to fast from marital relations on every fast day, but only during the more serious fasting periods, e.g. you should avoid intercourse during Great Lent, but you don't have to during the Apostles' Fast.

I think the reason you're not meant to have relations the night after receiving Communion is because you're supposed to spend that day in prayer and thanksgiving. You don't need to fast from food, but sexual intercourse would be a distraction from prayer.
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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2013, 07:09:16 AM »

Be like the Duggars, let God decide how many. So have all the sex you want
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« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2013, 09:43:10 AM »

Be like the Duggars, let God decide how many. So have all the sex you want

Also have a TV contract.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2013, 09:59:41 AM »

Here's my bottled Orthodox reply:

Avoid intercourse on fast days, and on the nights before and after you receive Communion. Otherwise, have intercourse whenever you both want to, without using contraception, and trust in God.

If you don't like my bottled reply, try from the tap, i.e. your priest. Wink

Bingo.

Sad to see such worldly replies here.
will you be okay?
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2013, 10:10:02 AM »

Quote
How soon to have kids after marriage starts

Dear OP, based on my reading and experience...

Traditional Orthodox answer: Pray to God and hope for the best.
Modern conservative Orthodox answer: Ask your priest and hope for the best.
Modern moderate Orthodox answer: Ask your spouse and hope for the best.
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2013, 10:14:22 AM »

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How soon to have kids after marriage starts

Dear OP, based on my reading and experience...

Traditional Orthodox answer: Pray to God and hope for the best.
Modern conservative Orthodox answer: Ask your priest and hope for the best.
Modern moderate Orthodox answer: Ask your spouse and hope for the best.
Modern liberal Orthodox answer: orgies
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2013, 10:44:38 AM »

I've never heard of any Orthodox advocating orgies, regardless of how liberal they were.  Shocked
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2013, 02:40:20 PM »

There is a belief that you should fast from intercourse like you do from food, thus the fasting the night before. The night after is somewhat new to me.

It seems like only the REALLY old fashioned Orthodox, or the new converts do this.

I don't know if it's a matter of "REALLY old fashioned Orthodox or new converts" doing this, or rather well-catechised Orthodox vs those less so.  In our Church, the received tradition is for spouses to abstain from sexual relations on fasting days/seasons and the night before the Liturgy, whether or not you receive Communion (abstinence the day of communing is not part of our tradition, I suspect that came much later).  It's not hard to locate that information, it's printed in the Liturgy books in the appendix on confession prep, but most priests don't talk about it publicly or even during pre-marital counseling (I know one priest who basically tells couples that it's all nonsense and that they should do whatever they want...and they do in fact go on to do what they want, including not keeping food fasts or coming to church when they don't feel like it).  In addition, many people today have an idea that the Church's jurisdiction ends at the threshold of their bedroom, or that these are rules made by monastics and have no place within marriage, that once you are married, anything at all goes. 

Admittedly, I fall somewhere between "libertine" and "monastic".  I think St Paul is pretty clear that abstinence from sexual relations within marriage is a temporary option for a specific purpose that must be mutually agreed upon, not a command that must be fulfilled even if one or both people legitimately are not up to it.  Keeping the food fasts, for example, is much easier because it doesn't require anything of another: if one spouse wants to keep a Lenten fast the day before communing, s/he can, and the other can eat steak and potatoes, and all is well.  But you really need to be "a team" when it comes to sexual abstinence for spiritual/ascetical purposes.  Sometimes, the bigger "cross" or sacrifice might be to give in for the sake of the weakness of the other in order for both to grow spiritually (of course, I presume a healthy marriage, not one where there's abuse or coercion, that needs to be dealt with differently).  And even in saying "give in for the sake of the weakness of the other", I don't even believe that's necessarily the right way of looking at it; for starters, sex within a healthy marriage isn't simply a legitimate way to "scratch a particular itch" or the means to repopulate the earth--there are many healthy, wholesome, noble reasons for it, it's beautiful and blessed, not something fundamentally dirty but tolerated.   

While I am loathe to blame a lot of these traditions on sexual abstinence in marriage on the excessive influence of monasticism, I do think that factors in.  Monastics have their own way of life that we non-monastics cannot always understand, and so we ought not impose our ways on them (and if/when they are imposed upon in a way they don't feel comfortable with, they have been known to ignore such things and do what they feel is right for them, trusting in the mercy of the Lord).  While sharing with us the benefits of their experience, I think monastics ought to extend the same courtesy to the married. 
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2013, 02:41:43 PM »

Modern liberal Orthodox answer: orgies

Am I wrong for having read this and imagined another type of "All Night Vigil", if only for a moment?  Tongue
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« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2013, 03:09:01 PM »

I know a woman that delivered her baby in the late fall. She had to abstain after delivery, then she had to abstain because of the Nativity fast. Then Lent came early that year, so she had to abstain for Lent. She figured that because she was breastfeeding she ought to fast from something. She ended up with 7 months of fasting from relations.
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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2013, 03:26:44 PM »

I know a woman that delivered her baby in the late fall. She had to abstain after delivery, then she had to abstain because of the Nativity fast. Then Lent came early that year, so she had to abstain for Lent. She figured that because she was breastfeeding she ought to fast from something. She ended up with 7 months of fasting from relations.

Meh, I "fasted" unwillingly for a year after each of my kids was born because of my wife's scarring made it intolerable for her.  After the second one, I said NO MORE KIDS.
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« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2013, 04:25:26 PM »

I don't know if it's a matter of "REALLY old fashioned Orthodox or new converts" doing this, or rather well-catechised Orthodox vs those less so. 
...
I think St Paul is pretty clear that abstinence from sexual relations within marriage is a temporary option for a specific purpose that must be mutually agreed upon, not a command that must be fulfilled even if one or both people legitimately are not up to it. 
...

i agree with all your points, this is the general point of view in the coptic church too. i haven't bothered to check if we have less people born in november than the other months as a result, but generally people 'try' to abstain during the fasts and in the evening before taking Holy Communion.
this is why in churches with married priests, there is a 'day off' where no Holy Communion happens (so you won't find daily Holy Communion except when there is a monk priest).

i think for people who find fasting hard generally, the marital 'fasting' would be lessened for them.
remember the main point of all fasting is to be able to devote more time to prayer and work on your spiritual life, letting go of greed, pride etc. it is not a 'who is the best ascetic?' competition.
 Wink

we abstain from anything that may make us bleed after Holy Communion, so that would include marital relations, but i assume that by the evening it would be ok (church days traditionally ending at sunset). do you have the 'avoiding bleeding' thing in the syriac church, mor ephrem?
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2013, 04:28:20 PM »

Be like the Duggars, let God decide how many. So have all the sex you want

Also have a TV contract.
To be fair, that was after the kids though.

They were wealthy before since he had a successful political career
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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2013, 05:39:49 PM »

we abstain from anything that may make us bleed after Holy Communion, so that would include marital relations, but i assume that by the evening it would be ok (church days traditionally ending at sunset). do you have the 'avoiding bleeding' thing in the syriac church, mor ephrem?

Yeah, we have that in our tradition, but that's even less well-known.  I don't think anyone has any qualms about discarding tissues used to stop a post-Communion nose-bleed, for example, even though technically they should be burned.  Mostly, I've exited the altar if, in doing something, I start to bleed (e.g., if I accidentally prick my finger with a safety pin), and come back when it's stopped.   
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »

Children are such a blessing.  If you will allow them to, they can teach you much about humility, selflessness, and unconditional love.  If you are ready to learn these virtues, by all means, have children in your first year of marriage.  If you struggle with selfishness and pride, your first year of marriage should be spent LITERALLY serving your spouse's needs (ideally, your spouse will reciprocate) in preparation for parenthood, as having children will come as a shock to you.  As for fasting from relations: that should be up to your spiritual father.  In my situation, if we fasted from relations on fast days, we would probably go for months without having relations, due to health issues, already having children, and my work situation. 
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« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2013, 06:29:32 PM »

While I am loathe to blame a lot of these traditions on sexual abstinence in marriage on the excessive influence of monasticism, I do think that factors in.  Monastics have their own way of life that we non-monastics cannot always understand, and so we ought not impose our ways on them (and if/when they are imposed upon in a way they don't feel comfortable with, they have been known to ignore such things and do what they feel is right for them, trusting in the mercy of the Lord).  While sharing with us the benefits of their experience, I think monastics ought to extend the same courtesy to the married. 

St. Augustine, who gets a lot of bad rap for "demonizing" sex by linking it to original sin or whatever, wrote a very insightful letter (262/PL 33, 1079) to a pious lady turned hyperdox, Ecdicia. She and her husband were both Christians. At some point, she started "playing nun" (wearing the clothes of a widow), refused to have marital relations and gave away half their fortune as charity to dubious clergymen behind his back. The poor man was fed up with it all before too long and he sought elsewhere what he wasn't getting at home. St. Augustine scolds her and advises her to ask his forgiveness. Should he have returned to her, they were to obey the apostolic counsel and never again deprive themselves of one another without mutual consent.   

On augustinus.it the letter is available in the Latin original and in Spanish and Italian translation. No English, unfortunately...   

Quote
EPISTOLA 262

Scripta post a. 395.

Ecdiciae, correptionem adhibens quam acerrimam et in mentem revocans uxorum officia in viros (nn. 14; 7-9) atque iniungens ut marito, veniam ab eo petens, satisfaciat (n. 11) quandoquidem a mutua continentia eum deterruerit inconsiderate elemosynas tribuendo ac vidualem habitum induendo (nn. 3; 5; 10).
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« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2013, 06:32:49 PM »

What do they do in Romania?
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« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »

What do they do in Romania?

You mean how soon people have kids once they are married? There's no standard Church teaching or practice on the matter. About the people from my neck of the woods there's a joke that "Banatians would have only one child, because they can't have half"... 
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« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2013, 09:47:36 PM »

On augustinus.it the letter is available in the Latin original and in Spanish and Italian translation. No English, unfortunately... 


I didn't know about this site, thanks!  Latin and Spanish will be just fine...
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« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2013, 09:59:18 PM »

I would think anytime ABOUT 9 months or after marriage would be great!    laugh
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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2013, 11:33:48 AM »

I would think anytime ABOUT 9 months or after marriage would be great!    laugh
What was that old saying? First babies are always a month premature?  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2013, 01:01:55 PM »

I would think anytime ABOUT 9 months or after marriage would be great!    laugh
What was that old saying? First babies are always a month premature?  Wink
...and weigh 9 lbs.  Cheesy
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« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2013, 01:29:11 AM »

Me and my fiancé are planning to marry soon and we want to have children as soon as possible.

This is my first post here. I have gotten good first impressions of this site. Thanks for validating my account!
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« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2013, 08:03:37 AM »

Me and my fiancé are planning to marry soon and we want to have children as soon as possible.

This is my first post here. I have gotten good first impressions of this site. Thanks for validating my account!
Congratulations on your upcoming marriage!  Many years!

And welcome to the forum.  Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2013, 06:28:32 PM »

Here's the timeline of my marriage:

Met Anastasia in August. She says it was Aug. 27th, 2011. I'd trust her judgement. She says it was a Saturday. All I remember is it was the Greek Festival and we were both volunteering in the temple narthex.

I asked her out after OCF on September 25th - two days after her birthday, the deadline she had set for herself (unbeknownst to me) before which she would not go out with any guy because of focusing on a work-related exam she was studying for.

I asked her to marry me on January 1st, 2012 at midnight. We got married May 26th.

Our first baby (a son!) Athanasius (his middle name, but we call him by it) was born March 18th, 2013. I was married to her and she was pregnant before I'd known her for a year.

Honestly it surprised us both how quickly we moved, and how little we were unsure about moving so quickly. Neither of us are the sort to do that. I spent an hour yesterday researching cloth bags on Amazon to make sure we got the best for our money for cryin' out loud.

We had no valid reason to use contraception in our eyes - she has a very good paying job and I'm a student about to graduate and hopefully ship off to St. Vlad's. We had very strong relational supports in our friends and family around us, and we knew that our lifestyle could be sacrificed in a few areas to support the cost of a kid, and we could get help from others. Having a kid can be very cheap - a midwife home birth for a few thousand dollars, cloth diapers, and breastfeeding severely cuts down how much money a baby vacuums up. We do believe you have to have very serious reasons to use contraception, and even then our options are limited - we refuse to use anything abortificent and I'm allergic to latex.

But we also have a very unusual relationship. We can literally say anything to each other. My wife is very rational and straightforward and hates games. Having been a Psych major I've taken a lot of classes on marriage and family dynamics and learned how to communicate. We had very good pre-marital counseling. If one of us is doing something that annoys the other we say so, and the other takes it as an opportunity to become more caring and less selfish. We've been together a short time but have faced a few very serious issues, and came out more united and together. I'm not going to get into them here but they threatened every plan we had for the future, and we responded by sitting down together, going over our options, choosing one and having a backup. Our son spent the first week of his life in the hospital because he didn't breath at birth and they thought he had a seizure. Our relationship is very strong, even though we haven't been together very long.

I say all of this just to give a practical example of what others have said; It depends on the couple. I wouldn't have minded if Athanasius had come later, but we both went into marriage knowing this wasn't our decision. To both of us, if you're not ready for children you're not ready for marriage. That was us, however, and I can very easily see it being different for others. I will say this: God gave us to each other and will give us our children as He sees fit, and will provide for everything for us, body and soul. He will do the same for every other couple who trust in Him to do so.
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« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2013, 11:01:21 PM »

This is an interesting article on the various type of birth control. I wonder how accurate it is.

http://www.myfemininemind.com/2012/07/things-your-doctor-may-not-have-told_25.html
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« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2013, 01:24:02 AM »

This is an interesting article on the various type of birth control. I wonder how accurate it is.

http://www.myfemininemind.com/2012/07/things-your-doctor-may-not-have-told_25.html

Coming from someone who worked in healthcare for years, pretty accurate save for the whole pill and depo making you more likely to pick up AIDS. I have never heard of that until reading this unless one assumes the woman is having multiple sexual partners w/o a condom; worrying over only pregnancy and not disease. So I suppose anything relating to AIDS/HIV can be overlooked if the woman is in a monogamous relationship.

All those horrible sounding side effects are actually in the drug information insert (inside the drug maker's original packaging) they give the patient, but the patient rarely reads and almost always drops in the trash can on the way out of the office.
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« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2013, 12:45:23 PM »

it costs a few thousands pounds to give birth to a kid in usa?
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no wonder people come to the uk to have kids. if you are a uk resident, u get a free kid. just turn up at the hospital in labour and out it pops.



(disclaimer - for good health of mother and baby consult a doctor or midwife well before this point...)
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« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2013, 01:08:14 PM »

it costs a few thousands pounds to give birth to a kid in usa?
 Shocked

no wonder people come to the uk to have kids. if you are a uk resident, u get a free kid. just turn up at the hospital in labour and out it pops.



(disclaimer - for good health of mother and baby consult a doctor or midwife well before this point...)

Remember, there's no NHS in the USA! Wink
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« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2013, 01:15:41 PM »

yeah, but if figured it would cost about 300 - 500 dollars max, i mean it's not usually very complicated, people have had kids in cars, lifts etc.


(disclaimer: i have not had kids...)
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« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2013, 01:24:49 PM »

yeah, but if figured it would cost about 300 - 500 dollars max, i mean it's not usually very complicated, people have had kids in cars, lifts etc.


(disclaimer: i have not had kids...)
In this neck of the woods, a hospital birth will run $5,000 - $7,000 (£3,250.34 - £4,550.48), or as much as $30,000 (£19,502.04) if a Cesarean section is involved. (These are actual numbers from people I know.) This is in part due to how hospitals bill insurance companies rather than reflecting actual costs. For people without insurance, non-profit hospitals will often negotiate a much lower price after sending the initial bill.

A homebirth with a midwife present in my state costs $3,000 (£1,950.20) over the course of the pregnancy.

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« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »

yeah, but if figured it would cost about 300 - 500 dollars max, i mean it's not usually very complicated, people have had kids in cars, lifts etc.


(disclaimer: i have not had kids...)
In this neck of the woods, a hospital birth will run $5,000 - $7,000 (£3,250.34 - £4,550.48), or as much as $30,000 (£19,502.04) if a Cesarean section is involved. (These are actual numbers from people I know.) This is in part due to how hospitals bill insurance companies rather than reflecting actual costs. For people without insurance, non-profit hospitals will often negotiate a much lower price after sending the initial bill.

A homebirth with a midwife present in my state costs $3,000 (£1,950.20) over the course of the pregnancy.


Our last child, the bill was right around $10,000, and that was without complications.
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« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2013, 03:06:33 PM »

A hospital birth around here costs on average about $10,000. That's just the birth and pre-natal care (maybe not even that), not any post care, and much higher for a Caesarean. A midwife and homebirth cost us $3,000, including post care. Insurance covers most, if not all of it (our insurance covered the entire cost. I don't know about hospital births).

It's a business, mostly governed by insurance companies. Most of the money for our homebirth was paying for the time of our midwife (she was with us for over 24 hours when Anya was in labor, for example) and the doula, who was with us for most of that time too, and for several hours each pre-natal visit. It also covered some medicines (pitocin, ibuprofen, other things) and medical care (sutures, cervical checks, etc.) and even a second midwife when the first had to go with Athanasius to the hospital. Then they cleaned our house while we slept!

My wife is correcting me too and saying it was actually $2,800. So there's that lol (she does the bills and budget. I can no math).
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« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2013, 03:10:34 PM »

You have to be rich to be an American, or so it seems.
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« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2013, 03:18:29 PM »

You have to be rich to be an American, or so it seems.

On the other hand, getting rich is a lot easier when earning money is not a crime but actually encouraged by the state.
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« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2013, 03:30:10 PM »

I had my first son by emergency c-section. Granted I had insurance but a bill still got sent to me to submit an official claim...$9,800 dollars. So yes, it can put a hurt on a person's bank account if not insured!

Midwife is the way to go if able, IMO.
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« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2013, 03:44:29 PM »

it costs a few thousands pounds to give birth to a kid in usa?
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no wonder people come to the uk to have kids. if you are a uk resident, u get a free kid. just turn up at the hospital in labour and out it pops.



(disclaimer - for good health of mother and baby consult a doctor or midwife well before this point...)
If they are born in the UK, aren't they then British subjects?  That's why we have the anchor baby industry here (many just don't pay the hospital bill).
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« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2013, 04:02:50 PM »

it costs a few thousands pounds to give birth to a kid in usa?
 Shocked

no wonder people come to the uk to have kids. if you are a uk resident, u get a free kid. just turn up at the hospital in labour and out it pops.



(disclaimer - for good health of mother and baby consult a doctor or midwife well before this point...)
If they are born in the UK, aren't they then British subjects?  That's why we have the anchor baby industry here (many just don't pay the hospital bill).

Not any more. One needs to have at least two generations of British subjects on one side to be considered one (that's why my son is). But deportation can take years to finalise, which is still an advantage.
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« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2013, 04:40:22 PM »

 Cheesy At least nine months regardless of where the sprog is to be born.
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« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2013, 05:07:58 PM »

yeah, but if figured it would cost about 300 - 500 dollars max, i mean it's not usually very complicated, people have had kids in cars, lifts etc.


(disclaimer: i have not had kids...)
In this neck of the woods, a hospital birth will run $5,000 - $7,000 (£3,250.34 - £4,550.48), or as much as $30,000 (£19,502.04) if a Cesarean section is involved. (These are actual numbers from people I know.) This is in part due to how hospitals bill insurance companies rather than reflecting actual costs. For people without insurance, non-profit hospitals will often negotiate a much lower price after sending the initial bill.

A homebirth with a midwife present in my state costs $3,000 (£1,950.20) over the course of the pregnancy.


Our last child, the bill was right around $10,000, and that was without complications.
Eesh. My personal experience with hospital birth and associated costs (which I am fairly certain is at least somewhat geographically dependent) is  eight years old.

Our second was born at home with no midwife, though a doula was present. I think that cost us $300.

Our homebirth with the midwife was $3,000 over the course of nine months, though she gave us the option of paying $2,800 if we made a single cash payment.

Here's an interesting infographic comparing U.S. birth costs to other countries.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 05:08:38 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2013, 05:23:06 PM »

You have to be rich to be an American, or so it seems.

On the other hand, getting rich is a lot easier when earning money is not a crime but actually encouraged by the state.
Is this in politics yet? I have a lot to say..
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« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2013, 05:23:06 PM »

The medical costs in this country are osbcene.

It has tripled since 1996!!! And the highest first death rate...
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