http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspxI don't know about Francis of Assisi. He was after Rome went its own way and isn't really our concern as to whether or not he is recognized as a saint in Rome. As Orthodox we know that the Bride of Christ is the Holy Orthodox Church and that she possesses all that is necessary for salvation. That being said, we do not recognize the mysteries of other sects. God can, however, and does keep us all by His grace. No man on earth is without His grace. Without it, we couldn't breathe, for instance. Without His grace, I never would have found Orthodoxy.
Orthodoxy doesn't seem to like Francis very much...Francis was humble for the sake of being seen as humble and thus not really humble.
"The sad fact is that the attainment of a true spiritual relationship with Christ was never a possibility for Francis, for being outside the Church of Christ, it was impossible that he could have received Divine Grace, or any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. His gifts were from another spirit."
That seems like a strong, sweeping statement. Is this Orthodox belief that anyone outside of the OC cannot receive grace? I thought Orthodoxy does not make statements about where the Holy Spirit can or cannot be...
That was put very well Andrew.
Honestly, NotAnHourGoesBy, you can find plenty of useful and good things in the lives of many people (even Gandhi). But, the words, actions, and lives of true Orthodox saints (untainted by matters such as being post-schism Catholic or whatever) present more reliable witnesses to the presence of God on His people. We can dig through the lives of many non-Orthodox and find some jewels here and there, but why bother with all the digging and possibly do more damage to oneself in such a search? We are dealing with large amounts of time and many people, but also the true Word of God working through individuals which is always present and steady. Many teachings and actions are repeated over and over, East and West, that I personally feel no need to expel a lot of time and resources to hunt down Catholic saints for "verification" when I can find the same more easily in Orthodoxy, especially in the early fathers of our Church. (There's a reason they are stressed so much.) I have other views as well, but they too are my own based on my current state. In all ways in our life and veneration, we must be humble towards what God gives us, and personally, I don't feel humble dragging "things" (persons, practices, etc.) into the Church, my worship, etc. in a haphazard manner when God has already given more than I can ever comprehend or repay. I'm fine with the saints I've been given.
Honestly, I'd take orthodoxinfo with a large grain of salt. Some of what they say is informative, but a lot is just polemical rubbish. They are not an authoritative voice for Orthodoxy.
I was hoping one of you would say that.
What's so polemical about that resource? I agree they are not an end-all resource, but I can't think of any individual one that exists in the world, much less on the internet. We have to do much work, prayer, church participation, spiritual readings, etc. so that everything can come together into a more cohesive whole. This is a truer voice than any one place. I just doubt that one complete single resource would ever be enough. I mean, different dioceses in the Church disagree in some ways too, so which one is authoritative? Again, we have to do personal filtering with the guidance of our spiritual father, our lived experience, and most importantly the grace of God aiding us. (I'm not directing this at anyone, just stating this generally.) We are but fallible man, and I only hope through God's will to become more clear of what is "right" and "true." I do find many of the articles on there (namely the ones taken directly from the words of saints) to be quite good and useful, as you stated, but I am just curious about what is seen as so polemical. I hope I am not derailing the thread in any way and I ask in all humbleness as someone new to Orthodoxy. God bless!