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Author Topic: A Lamp in the Dark  (Read 1524 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2013, 10:13:34 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.

What is bolded is not found here:

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/B8-unam.asp

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".

If you look hard enough, you can "probably" find Unum Sanctum on the Vatican's website in the original Latin.
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 12:00:43 AM »

If you care to even watch the documentary, there are many sources cited.   Including the quote given.

Just be ready, because the logic here is "if it's on the internet, it's not credible".   The next logic is "prove it".   So tell me, are you going to go seek documents from the 1800's to verify, or do you just want to google it?


This is rich...I'm still waiting for the answer to my question to you about the the identity of the father of Jesus in that thread on the ever-virginity of Mary (it's been weeks), yet here I make a comment about my uncertainty regarding the accuracy of a quote from a Pope, and you jump at my logic.  Smiley  My logic is not that "If it's on the internet, it's not credible", my logic is "Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's credible".  This logic can also be expressed in another way: "Just because it's claimed in a three hour Youtube video doesn't mean it's credible".

I don't have time in my life to watch a three hour video whose premise is this:

Quote
A Lamp in the Dark is an exciting new documentary that unfolds the fascinating "untold" history of the Bible, revealing critical information often overlooked in modern histories. Enter into a world of saints and martyrs battling against spies, assassins and wolves in sheep's clothing.

Throughout the Middle Ages, the Papal Inquisition forbade biblical translation, threatening imprisonment and death to those who disobeyed. Learn the stories of valiant warriors of the faith, such as John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, the ancient Waldenses, Albigenses and others who hazarded their lives for the sake of sharing the Gospel light with a world drowning in darkness.

Once the common people were able to read the Bible, the world was turned upside down through the Protestant Reformation. The Reformers subdued whole kingdoms by preaching the grace of God, and exposing the unbiblical doctrines of Rome. In response, the Vatican would launch a Counter Reformation to destroy the work of the Reformers, including the bibles they produced.

Reading that premise alone is enough to inspire doubts about how thorough the scholarship was.  But that's me. 

Anyway, thanks to your post, I was able to watch the three minutes you cited.  I note that most of the quotes are not from primary sources, but from secondary sources.  The quotes may very well be true, but if they are, then certainly the original citation is in the book the film chooses to quote.  Why not just post that?  After all, 

Quote
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day; if he prays a Pater, an Ave, and a Gloria for my intentions, I'll even remit his time in purgatory--no one needs a tan that bad!  It's good to be the Pope!!"  Pope Benedict XVI, Homily at the Basilica of St Paul Outside the Walls, 28 June 2010 Acta Apostolicae Sedis 100 (2010), 437-439

has a lot more credibility than

Quote
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day; if he prays a Pater, an Ave, and a Gloria for my intentions, I'll even remit his time in purgatory--no one needs a tan that bad!  It's good to be the Pope!!"  Pope Benedict XVI, quoted in Jack Chick, The Roman Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation

But as it is, only if I'm really curious will I make the effort to get these books from the library, search for the citations, and then verify them.  Or I can be gullible and just believe it because someone with an ax to grind told me so in their three hour video.  It's telling that they can quote and cite documents like Unam Sanctam but other quotes have to be relayed less directly.  That makes me suspicious.  The quotes may all be true...I just think they hurt their case by citing lesser documents.  Or, maybe they're lies, or mistranslations, or something similar, but they don't want us to catch on.   
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2013, 12:04:48 AM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.

What is bolded is not found here:

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/B8-unam.asp

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".

If you look hard enough, you can "probably" find Unum Sanctum on the Vatican's website in the original Latin.

yeshuaisiam, I just want to add that if you do find Unum Sanctum in the original Latin, you can either have a homeschooled child fluent in Latin translate it or have our own Cyrillic do the translation.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:05:43 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 12:45:11 AM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.

What is bolded is not found here:

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/B8-unam.asp

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".

If you look hard enough, you can "probably" find Unum Sanctum on the Vatican's website in the original Latin.

yeshuaisiam, I just want to add that if you do find Unum Sanctum in the original Latin, you can either have a homeschooled child fluent in Latin translate it or have our own Cyrillic do the translation.

I would not be surprised if one could translate Latin.   

Well the way I see it is that they cited the source in the video.  It's up to you whether or not to believe that source.  If you "discredit" the source by stating "not good enough", then it's typically up to the skeptic to prove otherwise.  They cited sources from the 1800's - books & papers. 

That's where I found the irony in stating "everything you read on the internet isn't true".  The sources are in these old books & papers.   The old books & papers may not be on the internet.

We can reject the sources and call it all a lie.  We can research the sources and validate them or discredit them from the sources.  We can trust the sources at face value.  Or we can sit here screaming nanny nanny boo boo at each other.

See the truth is, if anybody really cared, they would research the sources, track down the papers, and see for themselves.  But of course, we don't have time or the willpower to do so...  (I don't think anybody here would disagree)

So that leads back to the internet.  While on one hand the internet is an invalid source, it is also the only source anybody is willing look at.

All I can say is the documentary cited these sources, and the track record of several Popes (vicar of Christ right?) would not make these quotes unimaginable.   The other thing is the documentary cites several quotes which all rung blasphemy.

I mean, unless you believe him to be the Vicar of Christ?


I guess I'm sort of surprised more EO would not appreciate this video.  It really doesn't deal TOO much with the EO in some manners. Perhaps disses Constantine... But really rough on the RC's.
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« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 12:58:21 AM »

I'd say we, or at least I, don't want to buy into false 19th-20th century anti-Catholic rubbish just to score some points against the RC's.

If a pope actually said something like that, then I'm pretty sure the documentary wouldn't have to resort to quoting from an obscure 19th century work.
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« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 08:57:24 AM »


Well the way I see it is that they cited the source in the video.  It's up to you whether or not to believe that source.  If you "discredit" the source by stating "not good enough", then it's typically up to the skeptic to prove otherwise.

You've got that backwards. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. Citing a secondary or tertiary source does not fulfill that burden. There is no shame is summarily dismissing crap scholarship- there are not enough hours in the day to spend finding the primary sources for people who haven't done their homework.

Quote
They cited sources from the 1800's - books & papers.  

That's where I found the irony in stating "everything you read on the internet isn't true".  The sources are in these old books & papers.   The old books & papers may not be on the internet.

Trust me, if some Pope, somewhere, even in the most obscure handwritten note to his favorite choirboy, had declared "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," and Protestants (or Orthodox) were able to get a hold of it, it would be all over the internet by now.

Quote
We can reject the sources and call it all a lie.  We can research the sources and validate them or discredit them from the sources.

Something you obviously haven't done either, but it doesn't stop you from assuming them to be true and stating, matter-of-factly, that some Pope declared himself to be "The Way, the Truth, the Life."

Quote
See the truth is, if anybody really cared, they would research the sources, track down the papers, and see for themselves.

Again, something you haven't done. You are asking us to do the filmmakers' homework for them. If the makers of this crap documentary really cared, they would have taken the time to track down the papers themselves, instead of citing secondary sources. Anyone who has written a halfway decent college research paper would do this.

Quote
I guess I'm sort of surprised more EO would not appreciate this video.  It really doesn't deal TOO much with the EO in some manners. Perhaps disses Constantine... But really rough on the RC's.

Speaking for myself, I am not so desperate to critique the RC's that I will disseminate any lie or half-truth to put them in a poorer light. You evidently have a different attitude.
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« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2013, 09:12:23 AM »

Quote
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

I don't really care about this argument, but I think this is the quote that you all are debating over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam

The wikipedia article as a whole is quite interesting...
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« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 09:19:08 AM »

Quote
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

I don't really care about this argument, but I think this is the quote that you all are debating over.

No, actually. Everyone and his Calvinist grandma knows about that quote. What we're discussing is the claim that a Pope specifically said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life." Not that the Pope implied it, but that he actually said it.
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« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 09:58:07 AM »

Quote
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

I don't really care about this argument, but I think this is the quote that you all are debating over.

No, actually. Everyone and his Calvinist grandma knows about that quote. What we're discussing is the claim that a Pope specifically said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life." Not that the Pope implied it, but that he actually said it.
Oh, my bad. I did not see anything like that in the wikipedia article and I am far to lazy to do any more research on it.  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2013, 09:57:15 PM »


Well the way I see it is that they cited the source in the video.  It's up to you whether or not to believe that source.  If you "discredit" the source by stating "not good enough", then it's typically up to the skeptic to prove otherwise.

You've got that backwards. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. Citing a secondary or tertiary source does not fulfill that burden. There is no shame is summarily dismissing crap scholarship- there are not enough hours in the day to spend finding the primary sources for people who haven't done their homework.

Quote
They cited sources from the 1800's - books & papers.  

That's where I found the irony in stating "everything you read on the internet isn't true".  The sources are in these old books & papers.   The old books & papers may not be on the internet.

Trust me, if some Pope, somewhere, even in the most obscure handwritten note to his favorite choirboy, had declared "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," and Protestants (or Orthodox) were able to get a hold of it, it would be all over the internet by now.

Quote
We can reject the sources and call it all a lie.  We can research the sources and validate them or discredit them from the sources.

Something you obviously haven't done either, but it doesn't stop you from assuming them to be true and stating, matter-of-factly, that some Pope declared himself to be "The Way, the Truth, the Life."

Quote
See the truth is, if anybody really cared, they would research the sources, track down the papers, and see for themselves.

Again, something you haven't done. You are asking us to do the filmmakers' homework for them. If the makers of this crap documentary really cared, they would have taken the time to track down the papers themselves, instead of citing secondary sources. Anyone who has written a halfway decent college research paper would do this.

Quote
I guess I'm sort of surprised more EO would not appreciate this video.  It really doesn't deal TOO much with the EO in some manners. Perhaps disses Constantine... But really rough on the RC's.

Speaking for myself, I am not so desperate to critique the RC's that I will disseminate any lie or half-truth to put them in a poorer light. You evidently have a different attitude.

No, it's not backwards.

The documentary quoted the Pope, they CITED their source.  You call bologna to the source.  It's up to you to prove how it is fake.
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« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2013, 10:00:01 PM »

If you care to even watch the documentary, there are many sources cited.   Including the quote given.

Just be ready, because the logic here is "if it's on the internet, it's not credible".   The next logic is "prove it".   So tell me, are you going to go seek documents from the 1800's to verify, or do you just want to google it?


This is rich...I'm still waiting for the answer to my question to you about the the identity of the father of Jesus in that thread on the ever-virginity of Mary (it's been weeks), yet here I make a comment about my uncertainty regarding the accuracy of a quote from a Pope, and you jump at my logic.  Smiley  My logic is not that "If it's on the internet, it's not credible", my logic is "Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's credible".  This logic can also be expressed in another way: "Just because it's claimed in a three hour Youtube video doesn't mean it's credible".

I don't have time in my life to watch a three hour video whose premise is this:

Quote
A Lamp in the Dark is an exciting new documentary that unfolds the fascinating "untold" history of the Bible, revealing critical information often overlooked in modern histories. Enter into a world of saints and martyrs battling against spies, assassins and wolves in sheep's clothing.

Throughout the Middle Ages, the Papal Inquisition forbade biblical translation, threatening imprisonment and death to those who disobeyed. Learn the stories of valiant warriors of the faith, such as John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, the ancient Waldenses, Albigenses and others who hazarded their lives for the sake of sharing the Gospel light with a world drowning in darkness.

Once the common people were able to read the Bible, the world was turned upside down through the Protestant Reformation. The Reformers subdued whole kingdoms by preaching the grace of God, and exposing the unbiblical doctrines of Rome. In response, the Vatican would launch a Counter Reformation to destroy the work of the Reformers, including the bibles they produced.

Reading that premise alone is enough to inspire doubts about how thorough the scholarship was.  But that's me. 

Anyway, thanks to your post, I was able to watch the three minutes you cited.  I note that most of the quotes are not from primary sources, but from secondary sources.  The quotes may very well be true, but if they are, then certainly the original citation is in the book the film chooses to quote.  Why not just post that?  After all, 

Quote
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day; if he prays a Pater, an Ave, and a Gloria for my intentions, I'll even remit his time in purgatory--no one needs a tan that bad!  It's good to be the Pope!!"  Pope Benedict XVI, Homily at the Basilica of St Paul Outside the Walls, 28 June 2010 Acta Apostolicae Sedis 100 (2010), 437-439

has a lot more credibility than

Quote
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day; if he prays a Pater, an Ave, and a Gloria for my intentions, I'll even remit his time in purgatory--no one needs a tan that bad!  It's good to be the Pope!!"  Pope Benedict XVI, quoted in Jack Chick, The Roman Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation

But as it is, only if I'm really curious will I make the effort to get these books from the library, search for the citations, and then verify them.  Or I can be gullible and just believe it because someone with an ax to grind told me so in their three hour video.  It's telling that they can quote and cite documents like Unam Sanctam but other quotes have to be relayed less directly.  That makes me suspicious.  The quotes may all be true...I just think they hurt their case by citing lesser documents.  Or, maybe they're lies, or mistranslations, or something similar, but they don't want us to catch on.   

Will get to your question on that thread. Sorry I stopped following it.  Most threads I post end up in circular arguments as I was thinking that one did.

How do you know they are lesser documents?
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« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2013, 12:14:33 AM »

How do you know they are lesser documents?

The quote from Pius IX appears at 1:34:41, and reads like this:

Quote
I alone...am the Successor of the Apostles, the Vicar of Jesus Christ...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..."

Source: "History of the Christian Church" by Henry Charles Sheldon, p. 59

First of all, "dot dot dot" appears in more than one place; what was left out?  It may not make a difference, but maybe it does.  For all we know, the "Way, the Truth, and the Life" part was a quotation from Scripture cited for another purpose, but you won't know without knowing what the dots are replacing. 

But more to my point, the source for the Pius quote is a book by someone named Sheldon.  The source for the Pius quote is not from a writing or speech of someone named Pius IX.  If Sheldon's book has the proper citation which would tell us where Pius IX said those words, why not provide that citation instead of "p. 59"?  Even if it can't be found on the internet, it can certainly be found in some library somewhere, and being able to point to Pius' own words in context would be more effective.  And, by the way, which p. 59 is this quote to be found on?  According to Amazon, it's a five-volume set.  What justifies the sort of laziness that doesn't even get their own citation right?   

And in those three minutes you referred me to, most of the quotes are from similar sources.  They're not quoting the actual people, but they're quoting a book as saying that they said it.  When this is done in most of the books I read, the footnote gives proper citations not only for the original quote, but for the secondary source from which the quote was taken.  As Iconodule said, college research papers are held to higher standards than the standards to which the makers of this documentary held themselves. 

I have no problem believing that past Popes spoke of themselves and their office in very strong terms.  I just don't believe this one.  It's like having a Pope make a speech about himself saying "Before Abraham was, I AM".  Those things get noticed if they get said.  And by now, someone would've put it on the internet...it's not like there's a shortage of anti-Catholics on the internet.  Yet, the only source for the Pius quote is one page from a five-volume work by a fellow from 1894 that no one more recent picked up on until the makers of this documentary?

For now, I'm not buying it.   
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« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2013, 12:50:04 AM »

Here is the quote:

Quote
In 1866 the Bishop of Bordeaux spoke of the Pope as "the centre of the divine government and the living incarnation of the authority of Christ."1  Strong as is this statement, it rather yields the palm to that which Pius IX. uttered of himself in the same year. If the Ultramontane papers of France can be trusted, the Pope said: "Despite my unworthiness, I alone am the successor of the apostles, the vicar of Jesus Christ, I alone have the mission to guide and direct the barque of Peter, I am the way, the truth, and the life."2 Another expression, attributed to the Pope by no hostile hand, indicates a pronounced conviction that it was a part of his function to be the death of men as well as their life.

[Footnotes]
1 Le centre du gouvernement divin, et I'incarnation vivante de I'autorite du Christ. (Quoted by Friedrich, Vat. Konzil, i. 499.)

2 Seul, malgre mon indignite, je suis le successeur des Apotres, le Vicaire de Jesus-Christ, seul j'ai la mission de conduire et de diriger la barque de Pierre, je suis la voie, la verite et la vie. (Ibid., i. 498.)

-- Source

I present this not as proof that it was said, but simply as a lead that can be followed up if anyone is interested. As for the volume, this net source says the subtitle is "THE MODERN CHURCH". The last three volumes of the five volume set appear to be subtitled "The Modern Church" (distinguished by being labeled parts 1, 2, and 3). I tried to identify the volume by the number of pages in the above net source, comparing it with books available on amazon, but none of the page numbers matched; though since the amazon books are reprints or later editions it would have been wild luck to find a match anyway. However, a few searches for some of the chapter titles led to evidence that this quote was in the fifth volume, that is to say, the third one subtitled "The Modern Church" (compare the chapter title that the quote appear in, in the link above, with the matching chapter title here).

EDIT--Well if I'd been smart enough to back up on the site of the source quoted above (see here) I would have seen that it was indeed identified as volume 5)
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« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2013, 07:43:51 AM »


Well the way I see it is that they cited the source in the video.  It's up to you whether or not to believe that source.  If you "discredit" the source by stating "not good enough", then it's typically up to the skeptic to prove otherwise.

You've got that backwards. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. Citing a secondary or tertiary source does not fulfill that burden. There is no shame is summarily dismissing crap scholarship- there are not enough hours in the day to spend finding the primary sources for people who haven't done their homework.

Quote
They cited sources from the 1800's - books & papers.  

That's where I found the irony in stating "everything you read on the internet isn't true".  The sources are in these old books & papers.   The old books & papers may not be on the internet.

Trust me, if some Pope, somewhere, even in the most obscure handwritten note to his favorite choirboy, had declared "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," and Protestants (or Orthodox) were able to get a hold of it, it would be all over the internet by now.

Quote
We can reject the sources and call it all a lie.  We can research the sources and validate them or discredit them from the sources.

Something you obviously haven't done either, but it doesn't stop you from assuming them to be true and stating, matter-of-factly, that some Pope declared himself to be "The Way, the Truth, the Life."

Quote
See the truth is, if anybody really cared, they would research the sources, track down the papers, and see for themselves.

Again, something you haven't done. You are asking us to do the filmmakers' homework for them. If the makers of this crap documentary really cared, they would have taken the time to track down the papers themselves, instead of citing secondary sources. Anyone who has written a halfway decent college research paper would do this.

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I guess I'm sort of surprised more EO would not appreciate this video.  It really doesn't deal TOO much with the EO in some manners. Perhaps disses Constantine... But really rough on the RC's.

Speaking for myself, I am not so desperate to critique the RC's that I will disseminate any lie or half-truth to put them in a poorer light. You evidently have a different attitude.

No, it's not backwards.

The documentary quoted the Pope, they CITED their source. 

But they really didn't cite the source. They cited a source which cited the source (supposedly). Do your own homework.
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« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2013, 08:24:02 AM »

Wait, wait, wait....someone is actually defending this rubbish?

PP
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« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2013, 02:31:18 PM »

I present this not as proof that it was said, but simply as a lead that can be followed up if anyone is interested.

I never meant to imply that the citation couldn't be verified: of course it's possible to check p. 59 of Sheldon's book to find the quote and look for further references.  But this post only highlights my problem.  The footnotes there give the French version of two quotes, one from the Bishop of Bordeaux, and another from "the Ultramontane papers of France"; but no where is it indicated which Ultramontane papers, or in what speech or document penned by the Bishop, instead we get another reference to another secondary source.  What are we going to find when we dig up Friedrich, Vat. Konzil, i. 498, 499?  Wouldn't it have been easier and more convincing to just find and cite the original source rather than sending you on this wild goose chase? 

But maybe that's the point.   
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« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2013, 08:55:40 PM »

Wouldn't it have been easier and more convincing to just find and cite the original source rather than sending you on this wild goose chase? 

But maybe that's the point.   

Yup.
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2013, 06:23:29 PM »

Wouldn't it have been easier and more convincing to just find and cite the original source rather than sending you on this wild goose chase? 

But maybe that's the point.   

Yup.

How much more source do you want cited... Also, funny, I thought you guys would not be defending the Pope here.  LOL
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »

How much more source do you want cited...

Anything that is true.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2013, 07:34:48 PM »

Ah, Landmark Baptist/Trail of Blood.

Definitely credible stuff.

Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2013, 07:47:45 PM »

Wouldn't it have been easier and more convincing to just find and cite the original source rather than sending you on this wild goose chase? 

But maybe that's the point.   

Yup.

How much more source do you want cited... Also, funny, I thought you guys would not be defending the Pope here.  LOL

I have plenty of disagreements with Rome, I just don't need to use lies to express those disagreements. Evidently you have a different attitude about it.
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »

Ah, Landmark Baptist/Trail of Blood.

Definitely credible stuff.

Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...

Are we talking about Jews? I am confused.
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2013, 08:55:24 PM »

Ah, Landmark Baptist/Trail of Blood.

Definitely credible stuff.

Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...

Are we talking about Jews? I am confused.

No, the early Christians. I was drawing the comparison because the Landmark claims of being a small, persecuted minority preserving the faith while everyone else goes astray is the same thing all Christians claim at one period or another, but people act like they're just out there on it.
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2013, 09:08:23 PM »


Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...

Are we talking about Jews? I am confused.

No, the early Christians. I was drawing the comparison because the Landmark claims of being a small, persecuted minority preserving the faith while everyone else goes astray is the same thing all Christians claim at one period or another, but people act like they're just out there on it.

Except the Landmark/Trail of Blood theory is easily demonstrably false. They claim that groups like the Albigenses are their predecessors, which is just laughable to think that they're somehow the predecessor to Baptists.
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2013, 10:08:49 PM »


Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...

Are we talking about Jews? I am confused.

No, the early Christians. I was drawing the comparison because the Landmark claims of being a small, persecuted minority preserving the faith while everyone else goes astray is the same thing all Christians claim at one period or another, but people act like they're just out there on it.

Except the Landmark/Trail of Blood theory is easily demonstrably false. They claim that groups like the Albigenses are their predecessors, which is just laughable to think that they're somehow the predecessor to Baptists.

How is it demonstrably false? Even if the Albigenses can be proven false, the connection with the Waldenses (some of whom merged with mainstream Protestantism, and some of whom still exist in their own right) cannot be so that puts Protestant links back at least to the 12th century.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2013, 11:43:36 PM »

Except the Landmark/Trail of Blood theory is easily demonstrably false. They claim that groups like the Albigenses are their predecessors, which is just laughable to think that they're somehow the predecessor to Baptists.

How is it demonstrably false? Even if the Albigenses can be proven false, the connection with the Waldenses (some of whom merged with mainstream Protestantism, and some of whom still exist in their own right) cannot be so that puts Protestant links back at least to the 12th century.

It's false because the theories themselves claim an unbroken, continuous lineage that goes back directly to the early church, and to the apostles themselves. The Albigenses, Montanists, Paulicians, etc. are not even remotely close to claimable predecessors of the Baptists. Therefore, the lineage is not "unbroken" as these groups (and others, which constitute the large part of a thousand years or more) are not a direct continuance of a baptist lineage and the theories are false.

Baptists aren't the only ones that try to use this exact same lineage of groups - some of the Worldwide Church of God remnants do, which results in another demonstrably false theory.

And these theories aren't about "Protestantism in general" AFAIK, but "Baptists" or "the Church of God" specifically with all else in history being heresy.
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« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 01:56:23 AM »

How much more source do you want cited... Also, funny, I thought you guys would not be defending the Pope here.  LOL

LOL, indeed.  After all, in another thread, you are arguing that, despite a documented historical progression which lead to the current manner of icon veneration in Eastern Orthodoxy, you will only accept iconography and icon veneration as a legitimate practice if you see the current practice documented in the writings of the first century Christians, or if you see first century examples of such art.  Those are the only sources you are interested in, despite all manner of other sources and explanations which are pertinent to the subject.  So can I really be blamed for wanting to see the Pope's own words rather than what a Youtube video says Sheldon says Friedrich says the ultramontane newspapers of France say the Pope said?  It's basically the same standard you are applying to other questions where you have doubts. 

That I believe my insistence on wanting proper sources for a quote from the nineteenth century is more reasonable than your approach with regard to other matters is entirely besides the point...
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« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2013, 07:32:34 AM »

Yesh, I'll make it simple for you. I wont speak for all EO's but I'll speak for this one. There is plenty for an EO to criticize about Roman Catholicism without proof texting a broken quote here, or a nonsensical and historically invalid theory (trail of blood) there. We dont need tin-foil hats to criticize the Pope. We can use actual, real, historical evidence to do that.

PP
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« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2013, 10:12:05 AM »

I present this not as proof that it was said, but simply as a lead that can be followed up if anyone is interested.

I never meant to imply that the citation couldn't be verified: of course it's possible to check p. 59 of Sheldon's book to find the quote and look for further references.  But this post only highlights my problem.  The footnotes there give the French version of two quotes, one from the Bishop of Bordeaux, and another from "the Ultramontane papers of France"; but no where is it indicated which Ultramontane papers, or in what speech or document penned by the Bishop, instead we get another reference to another secondary source.  What are we going to find when we dig up Friedrich, Vat. Konzil, i. 498, 499?  Wouldn't it have been easier and more convincing to just find and cite the original source rather than sending you on this wild goose chase? 

But maybe that's the point.   

Wish I'd have known that this would be the reaction before I spent a half hour looking the stuff up Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2013, 01:23:06 AM »


Yeah, its kinda like claiming the government hunted your people down for 300 years, killed all of your leaders in horrible ways, and your own people kept going astray to the point where the majority of people were heretics and the government supported them, but you somehow peacefully wrested control and took over all of society...

Are we talking about Jews? I am confused.

No, the early Christians. I was drawing the comparison because the Landmark claims of being a small, persecuted minority preserving the faith while everyone else goes astray is the same thing all Christians claim at one period or another, but people act like they're just out there on it.

Except the Landmark/Trail of Blood theory is easily demonstrably false. They claim that groups like the Albigenses are their predecessors, which is just laughable to think that they're somehow the predecessor to Baptists.

How is it demonstrably false? Even if the Albigenses can be proven false, the connection with the Waldenses (some of whom merged with mainstream Protestantism, and some of whom still exist in their own right) cannot be so that puts Protestant links back at least to the 12th century.
That still leaves over a millenium to account for.

The problem is that we know the leaders and beliefs of the Church during the first 300 years.  So the Protestants have to explain why their leaders and beliefs are invisible for that millenium.

As for the Waldensians, their early catechism "The Noble Lesson" doesn't fully accord with Protestantism (there's an emphasis, for instance, on works), and their Bible is demonstrably dependent on the Vulgate of the Vatican, whence they came.

As for the trail of blood nonsense, it suffers the problem that the various heresies it tries to link across time would be at each other's throats as contemporaries.
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« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2013, 01:33:19 AM »

Thought I'd share this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv4KNsJITc

It won't make you any RC friends, but I thought it was pretty good.
Had some interesting stuff in it...  You know some things can be sketchy on a 3 hour documentary, but I thought overall it was very good.   Copyright free on youtube.

Yesh, when you walk around in public, do you find yourself compulsively buying shiny things?

Nope.   Just buy things I need.

I found it interesting.   The inquisition, and how the Catholic church murdered other Christians in order to prevent the scriptures from being read in English.  Information on William Tyndale, and how the RC church persecuted him & executed him for his "wrongs".

I've read many times about Tyndale, and this documentary seems very credible to me on his life.  Although, his life was incredibly exciting in ways, running from place to place, barely escaping at times...

Also interesting in the documentary is also cited information on Constantine.  It's mostly post schism though, so it primarily deals with the RC church.
Btw, have you ever heard of the Douay-Rheims?
http://books.google.com/books?id=kofWAAAAMAAJ
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