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Author Topic: A Lamp in the Dark  (Read 1597 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 28, 2013, 07:38:16 PM »

Thought I'd share this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv4KNsJITc

It won't make you any RC friends, but I thought it was pretty good.
Had some interesting stuff in it...  You know some things can be sketchy on a 3 hour documentary, but I thought overall it was very good.   Copyright free on youtube.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 09:27:43 PM »

Quote
A Lamp in the Dark is an exciting new documentary that unfolds the fascinating "untold" history of the Bible, revealing critical information often overlooked in modern histories. Enter into a world of saints and martyrs battling against spies, assassins and wolves in sheep's clothing.

Throughout the Middle Ages, the Papal Inquisition forbade biblical translation, threatening imprisonment and death to those who disobeyed. Learn the stories of valiant warriors of the faith, such as John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, the ancient Waldenses, Albigenses and others who hazarded their lives for the sake of sharing the Gospel light with a world drowning in darkness.

Once the common people were able to read the Bible, the world was turned upside down through the Protestant Reformation. The Reformers subdued whole kingdoms by preaching the grace of God, and exposing the unbiblical doctrines of Rome. In response, the Vatican would launch a Counter Reformation to destroy the work of the Reformers, including the bibles they produced.

Seems like bollocks to me. See the bolded above.
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 09:52:05 PM »

We've heard of Protestantism before.
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 10:50:52 PM »

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In response, the Vatican would launch a Counter Reformation to destroy the work of the Reformers, including the bibles they produced.

That wascally Watican...
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 01:54:03 AM »

Though I am sure the producers had good intensions, I have a hard time taking any documentary, that still portrays the Middle Ages as the "Dark Ages", seriously.
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 01:58:10 AM »

Ah, Landmark Baptist/Trail of Blood.

Definitely credible stuff.
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 08:43:13 AM »

Although Landmark Baptists are quite odd, they at least believe in a visible church rather than the fictional "invisible" church that most protestants believe in.  Unfortunately, they just believe in the goofy idea that they are the "true church".   A basic study of history condemns that idea to the trash heap of heretical teachings.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 08:46:28 AM »

Sorry yesh, this kind of stuff is really bad.

Even other Baptists tend to push away the Landmarkists as silly.

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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 08:50:52 AM »

Landmarkism was actually my very first step into learning about Church History.  I found a book on it and read about how they traced their origins all the way back to the early Church.  After looking into it further, I realized that the groups that they attempted to attach themselves to were no in anyway compatible with Scripture, so I started looking at other options.  I give them credit though for recognizing that historicity is important even if they use it in a very distorted manner.
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 11:09:54 AM »

Interestingly, the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrong) break-aways teach something similar to Landmarkism. They similarly point to ridiculously heretical/gnostic groups as being the continuation of the "Church of God," and sometimes emphasize a specific shared doctrine (e.g. adult baptism) while ignoring the rest of their incompatible beliefs. The Albigenses/Cathars and Bogomils are often used, which is just a laugh for anyone that knows anything about these groups.
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 04:41:47 PM »

Thought I'd share this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv4KNsJITc

It won't make you any RC friends, but I thought it was pretty good.
Had some interesting stuff in it...  You know some things can be sketchy on a 3 hour documentary, but I thought overall it was very good.   Copyright free on youtube.

Yesh, when you walk around in public, do you find yourself compulsively buying shiny things?
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 05:05:52 PM »

Thought I'd share this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv4KNsJITc

It won't make you any RC friends, but I thought it was pretty good.
Had some interesting stuff in it...  You know some things can be sketchy on a 3 hour documentary, but I thought overall it was very good.   Copyright free on youtube.

Yesh, when you walk around in public, do you find yourself compulsively buying shiny things?

Nope.   Just buy things I need.

I found it interesting.   The inquisition, and how the Catholic church murdered other Christians in order to prevent the scriptures from being read in English.  Information on William Tyndale, and how the RC church persecuted him & executed him for his "wrongs".

I've read many times about Tyndale, and this documentary seems very credible to me on his life.  Although, his life was incredibly exciting in ways, running from place to place, barely escaping at times...

Also interesting in the documentary is also cited information on Constantine.  It's mostly post schism though, so it primarily deals with the RC church.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 05:35:23 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.

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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 06:00:15 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 06:03:03 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


Yes, that is true. However, I was thinking more about the catholics who were killed by protestants.
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


Don't forget the brutal apocalyptic Anabaptist city. Wink
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 06:33:12 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Everyone was martyred by everyone else at some point. So what?

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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2013, 11:18:02 PM »

From what I've read there was actually some sense to the RC initial banning of translations.  Supposedly in one diocese near to Protestant lands some really bad Protestant translations were being circulated and lots of little private "true churches" based upon these errant readings were popping up, etc. So, he put the kibosh on such things in his diocese. Neighboring dioceses began copying this policy (not always with local reason) until it was virtually an RC wide practice within a few years.
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 12:10:43 AM »

From what I've read there was actually some sense to the RC initial banning of translations.  Supposedly in one diocese near to Protestant lands some really bad Protestant translations were being circulated and lots of little private "true churches" based upon these errant readings were popping up, etc. So, he put the kibosh on such things in his diocese. Neighboring dioceses began copying this policy (not always with local reason) until it was virtually an RC wide practice within a few years.

Definitely a bad PR stunt.
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 07:07:14 AM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


My wife went to a Mennonite high school where everybody told her, "We'll pray for you" (which Mennonite slang for "Go f- yourself.") Does that count as martyrdom?
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2013, 03:04:58 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


My wife went to a Mennonite high school where everybody told her, "We'll pray for you" (which Mennonite slang for "Go f- yourself.") Does that count as martyrdom?

Nope.   I bet they do pray for her too, if they were a conservative bunch.  But far from martyrdom.
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2013, 03:08:49 PM »

From what I've read there was actually some sense to the RC initial banning of translations.  Supposedly in one diocese near to Protestant lands some really bad Protestant translations were being circulated and lots of little private "true churches" based upon these errant readings were popping up, etc. So, he put the kibosh on such things in his diocese. Neighboring dioceses began copying this policy (not always with local reason) until it was virtually an RC wide practice within a few years.

The truth of the matter is the reformation was fueled some by people actually reading the scriptures in their own tongue, rather than a priest/bishop dictating to them what is in the bible.   Thus later when the heretical practices of the church were pitted against the scriptures, the term "sola scriptura" was then applied to the protestants.   It is used in a demeaning way today by Catholics, but when called that most protestants are happy and take it as a compliment.

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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2013, 03:13:04 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2013, 03:44:15 PM »

The funny thing is that, in many lutheran countries, things didn't change that much. I remember reading, that until fairly recently, no one in Denmark were allowed to study the Bible without the precense of a priest.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2013, 03:55:00 PM »

The funny thing is that, in many lutheran countries, things didn't change that much. I remember reading, that until fairly recently, no one in Denmark were allowed to study the Bible without the precense of a priest.

Interesting, but sounds right from what I've heard. Just because Protestants believed in Sola Scriptura and the use of the vernacular, doesn't mean they wanted to permit each layperson to interpret Scripture individually in isolation. Same thing applies today, which is why most Protestant faith groups tend to have their own "traditions" and authorities by which they interpret Scripture, even if it's not necessarily phrased that way.
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2013, 04:11:22 PM »

The funny thing is that, in many lutheran countries, things didn't change that much. I remember reading, that until fairly recently, no one in Denmark were allowed to study the Bible without the precense of a priest.

Interesting, but sounds right from what I've heard. Just because Protestants believed in Sola Scriptura and the use of the vernacular, doesn't mean they wanted to permit each layperson to interpret Scripture individually in isolation. Same thing applies today, which is why most Protestant faith groups tend to have their own "traditions" and authorities by which they interpret Scripture, even if it's not necessarily phrased that way.

True, and it didn't exactly help that a large portion of the population was analphabetic until the mid-19th century.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2013, 04:20:01 PM »

Of course, there was still religious litterature outside the scriptures, Luther's small cathecism, for example. I remember learning about it when I wassmall. I thought it had something to do with cats.  Tongue

And then there were theologians who wrote about the faith, but I don't know if such works were read among the lower classes.
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 06:07:46 PM »

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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2013, 07:19:38 PM »

The funny thing is that, in many lutheran countries, things didn't change that much. I remember reading, that until fairly recently, no one in Denmark were allowed to study the Bible without the precense of a priest.

Interesting, but sounds right from what I've heard. Just because Protestants believed in Sola Scriptura and the use of the vernacular, doesn't mean they wanted to permit each layperson to interpret Scripture individually in isolation. Same thing applies today, which is why most Protestant faith groups tend to have their own "traditions" and authorities by which they interpret Scripture, even if it's not necessarily phrased that way.

That's not exactly what I recall from Tyndale, as he's been quoted as saying men should be able to interpret the scriptures.
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2013, 07:23:43 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2013, 08:07:19 PM »

The funny thing is that, in many lutheran countries, things didn't change that much. I remember reading, that until fairly recently, no one in Denmark were allowed to study the Bible without the precense of a priest.

Interesting, but sounds right from what I've heard. Just because Protestants believed in Sola Scriptura and the use of the vernacular, doesn't mean they wanted to permit each layperson to interpret Scripture individually in isolation. Same thing applies today, which is why most Protestant faith groups tend to have their own "traditions" and authorities by which they interpret Scripture, even if it's not necessarily phrased that way.

That's not exactly what I recall from Tyndale, as he's been quoted as saying men should be able to interpret the scriptures.

Care to provide the quote?

I wouldn't imagine Luther or Calvin wanting every individual to interpret the scriptures completely in isolation.
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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2013, 09:49:52 AM »

I'm guessing he is referencing this quote.  It is the closest Tyndale quote I could find to the topic.

"I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!"
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2013, 11:04:55 AM »

...men should be able to interpret the scriptures.

They should be. And they do, just not properly. Which is why there are so many Protestant denominations, as people make it up as they go along.
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2013, 11:09:37 AM »

I'm guessing he is referencing this quote.  It is the closest Tyndale quote I could find to the topic.

"I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!"


Interesting quote. If that is the one, it doesn't necessarily imply individual/isolated interpretation.
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2013, 09:32:10 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2013, 09:37:31 PM »

I'm guessing he is referencing this quote.  It is the closest Tyndale quote I could find to the topic.

"I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!"


Interesting quote. If that is the one, it doesn't necessarily imply individual/isolated interpretation.

I didn't say individual or isolated.


I hope everybody actually watched the documentary, it is very interesting.
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2013, 09:56:49 PM »

Yesh, do you really believe the Albigenses were spreading Gospel light?
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2013, 09:57:50 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


My wife went to a Mennonite high school where everybody told her, "We'll pray for you" (which Mennonite slang for "Go f- yourself.") Does that count as martyrdom?

Nope.   I bet they do pray for her too, if they were a conservative bunch. 

Certainly a pharisaic and hateful bunch.
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2013, 10:20:17 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.

What is bolded is not found here:

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/B8-unam.asp
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2013, 07:24:18 PM »

It's still a heresy. You don't get to twist things into the way you want.

If you really believed in Sola Scriptura, you'd be a Lutheran. Not this smorgasbord, make up whatever you want - style of 'Christianity.'

Well also the Pope declaring himself to be "The way, the truth, and the life".  I think that may even be a greater heresy than the reformation.

Did he do that?!  Huh Where do you hear these things?
The source is cited in the movie.

(Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

Lots of sources on google, including Catholic ones.

What is bolded is not found here:

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/B8-unam.asp

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2013, 07:27:05 PM »

I don't know.

It seems to me that people often make it look as if the reformation was all about language. I also don't like the way popular culture often ignores the many killings done by protestants.



Yes, the Anabaptists for instance were heavily martyred by the Roman Catholics and Protestants.


My wife went to a Mennonite high school where everybody told her, "We'll pray for you" (which Mennonite slang for "Go f- yourself.") Does that count as martyrdom?

Nope.   I bet they do pray for her too, if they were a conservative bunch. 

Certainly a pharisaic and hateful bunch.

That's ironic, because I've seen EO Christians leave the church and the members say "we'll pray for you".   Could the same be said for them?

Look, every group has bad apples, even the EO. 
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 07:31:28 PM »

Yesh, do you really believe the Albigenses were spreading Gospel light?

Where did I say that?
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 08:30:36 PM »

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".

Not that I thoroughly scoured the internet in search of a source for this quote, but from what I was able to read, it seems no one has a source for the alleged quote from Pius IX.  The most they'll say is "He said in a speech, etc." or "the Vatican Council says, etc."  No where do they cite what speech, what document, etc.  Furthermore, I can see translation issues becoming a factor here: for instance, Dominus can mean "Lord" as in "The LORD" or it can mean "Lord" as in "Sir", but I don't trust fundamentalists to make such distinctions, so if they read a Council document referring to a Pope as Dominus noster, they're already so hellbent against RC's that anything will set them off. 

Clearly they are able to cite relevant documents, chapter and verse, when they actually have a solid source to work with; but so far, the veracity of Pius IX saying he's "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" seems to be right up there with the quote from Abraham Lincoln where he talked about not believing everything you read on the internet. 
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2013, 09:36:42 PM »

Google the quote, and find the source that you trust.   Not hard to believe anyway, after all he's the supposed "vicar of Christ".

Not that I thoroughly scoured the internet in search of a source for this quote, but from what I was able to read, it seems no one has a source for the alleged quote from Pius IX.  The most they'll say is "He said in a speech, etc." or "the Vatican Council says, etc."  No where do they cite what speech, what document, etc.  Furthermore, I can see translation issues becoming a factor here: for instance, Dominus can mean "Lord" as in "The LORD" or it can mean "Lord" as in "Sir", but I don't trust fundamentalists to make such distinctions, so if they read a Council document referring to a Pope as Dominus noster, they're already so hellbent against RC's that anything will set them off. 

Clearly they are able to cite relevant documents, chapter and verse, when they actually have a solid source to work with; but so far, the veracity of Pius IX saying he's "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" seems to be right up there with the quote from Abraham Lincoln where he talked about not believing everything you read on the internet. 

Yep, its true it's on the internet.... Sure google it...

If you actually watched the movie rather than making comments trying to discredit things in the movie, then you people would have the source.   Of course, I'm sure this source will just be discredited, as people can't google it.  LOL.   Many of the documents were from the 1800's.

Or if I must do more leg work rather than just saying "google it",

Start the video at 1:32:15 and go 1:35 and you'll see a lot of quotes, with sources cited.

If you care to even watch the documentary, there are many sources cited.   Including the quote given.

Just be ready, because the logic here is "if it's on the internet, it's not credible".   The next logic is "prove it".   So tell me, are you going to go seek documents from the 1800's to verify, or do you just want to google it?
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