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Author Topic: Catholic discovering an Orthodox treasure  (Read 1454 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2013, 10:22:32 AM »

I've never heard of it being practiced anywhere inside or outside monasteries. Which monasteries you are talking about?

When I was not yet Orthodox, a couple invited me to St. Anthony's in Arizona (at least I'm pretty sure it was that one). They told me I would need to leave during some parts of the service. I never ended up going anyway.

Interesting. I wonder whether this is practice of US Ephraimite monasteries or private opinion of that specific couple.

"That specific group" follows the Athonite Typikon. 
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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2013, 10:28:51 AM »


Oh, we take her seriously.

We are not condoning she do something disrespectful or sacraliguous.

Believe me, we would all be ganging up on her if she showed the slightest disrespect.

However, she seems to be there because she likes what she is experiencing at the Divine Liturgy. God willing, she will like it so much that she will decide to stay.

All converts start somewhere.  She seems to have a genuine curiosity and admiration, and is not there to do any harm.

If God brought her to the church, who are we to bar her from the Church?

Until she does something to warrant hostility, or until the parish pastor deems otherwise, she is welcome to attend, hear God's Word, and experience a little bit of Heaven.  The priest is aware of who and what she is, and if he has no reservations about her praying quietly in the corner, why should we?



I agree. I recommend that our visitor read this article written by the beloved and brilliant Greek Bishop-emeritus of Pittsburgh, Metropolitan Maximos. He begins with this:
"Orthodoxy, a way of life, is known for its experiential approach to faith and doctrine."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8038

I can not think of a better experiential way to learn about our Faith than by attending Liturgy with an open heart.

As my grandparents would have said, "Vitajte na nás" - basically meaning, we welcome you!
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JMJCatholic
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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »

Thank you! And thank you for the link.  I'll visit the site.

Joanna

[/quote]

I agree. I recommend that our visitor read this article written by the beloved and brilliant Greek Bishop-emeritus of Pittsburgh, Metropolitan Maximos. He begins with this:
"Orthodoxy, a way of life, is known for its experiential approach to faith and doctrine."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8038

I can not think of a better experiential way to learn about our Faith than by attending Liturgy with an open heart.

As my grandparents would have said, "Vitajte na nás" - basically meaning, we welcome you!
[/quote]
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2013, 11:20:01 AM »

Naturally visitors are always welcome. We had a gentleman in our parish who attended on a more or less regular basis for 10 years before being received into the Orthodox Church. We fondly referred to him as "the Oldest Living Catechumen."

The OP states up front that she has no intention (or presumably desire) to convert. I give her the respect of taking her at her word.

Not that this is what she is doing, but I personally would not attend a synagogue or a Buddhist or Hindu temple etc. (unless invited, or for a specific purpose, such as a funeral or wedding) out of mere curiosity, or to "see how they do it." Or to "incorporate aspects into my own spirituality." (as I often hear). That seems to me to be disrespectful.
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« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2013, 11:41:02 AM »

If God brought her to the church, who are we to bar her from the Church?

Welcome to Orthodoxy, the only faith where the members attack you if you demonstrate interest in it.  Grin

it helps us identify the tares

Dismissal of catechumen was included for some reasons. I suspect because of reasons mentioned here.

I think it was to protect non-orthodox believers of Christ from the pain of being barred from the Eucharist until some 'man' thought they were worthy enough. Frankly I like walking outside and sitting quietly with God, waiting.
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« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2013, 12:07:26 PM »

Naturally visitors are always welcome. We had a gentleman in our parish who attended on a more or less regular basis for 10 years before being received into the Orthodox Church. We fondly referred to him as "the Oldest Living Catechumen."

The OP states up front that she has no intention (or presumably desire) to convert. I give her the respect of taking her at her word.

Not that this is what she is doing, but I personally would not attend a synagogue or a Buddhist or Hindu temple etc. (unless invited, or for a specific purpose, such as a funeral or wedding) out of mere curiosity, or to "see how they do it." Or to "incorporate aspects into my own spirituality." (as I often hear). That seems to me to be disrespectful.

While I understand what you are saying, and agree with you to a certain degree, the OP did post in the Converts Forum, not Other Topics, or Free For All, etc.

As a rule, I tend to be encouraging of individuals who might, even on the slightest of chances, actually convert.

Therefore, I find that it is better to err on the side of having them convert, rather than err on the side of dissuading them from possibly converting.

Joanna didn't say she was only attending services for merely a novelty experience.  In fact, she stated that she has conversed with the priest, is learning more and more, is on this Forum to learn even more, and asked for advice on reading materials on Orthodoxy.

All this points to a valid interest.  Perhaps a spark that needs to be fanned and encouraged, and not extinguished.

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« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2013, 12:21:17 PM »

Dismissal of catechumen was included for some reasons. I suspect because of reasons mentioned here.

No.  The dismissal of catechumens took place because the non-baptized were not considered to be "prepared" to offer and receive the Eucharistic sacrifice.  They weren't "of the faithful", of the community of those who, through baptism, receive the grace of illumination.  It wasn't to dissuade people who might not yet be ready for "the big jump". 

I am guessing that the modern Byzantine form of this dismissal is an abridged version.  In the versions preserved in the Oriental traditions, it's not just the catechumens who are dismissed explicitly, but also "the penitents", "those possessed by devils and unclean spirits", "the unclean", "those of little faith", etc.  I don't know where this is really practiced anymore, but if you really followed the spirit of the dismissal, and not just the letter, I suppose that "coffee hour" would commence immediately for just about everyone.
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »

Michal seems like he's the only one being honest in this thread, imo. He's the only one who has taken the OP's words seriously when she she says she doesn't want to convert. Everyone else is like "Suuuuuure you won't convert  Wink Wink Wink" and then they fill the thread with anecdotes proving the liturgy's magical attraction will make her convert or taking passive aggressive jabs at Catholicism. Seems manipulative and dishonest to me. Michal is the only one who is actually respecting the OP, the only one who believes her and who isn't treating her as a confused wanderer going through the standard "I'm in denial about wanting to convert" phase.

If the OP doesn't want to convert ever, so what?  That's between her and God.  As long as she's not sheep-stealing or causing a ruckus in the parish, what's our problem?  Certainly, no one is welcome anywhere if they are not welcome to enter a church to pray and learn in peace. 

As I read the first post, I didn't take it as a declaration that she had no intention of ever converting.  I read it as a question about the appropriateness of "an outsider" associating herself with the community without being a part of it.  Orthodoxy's a fairly intimidating religion for those who are not so familiar with it, and it's commendable that people want to go through the trouble of asking questions in advance in order to be respectful.
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2013, 02:24:59 PM »

Dear Joanna,

Welcome to the octagon, whoops I mean the forum! 

You might like to visit this site:  http://ematins.org/matins.htm
You will find side-by-side Greek/English translations of the Matins service (which preceeds the Divine Liturgy).  There are also selected Vespers services.  The hymnogoraphy of the Church is wonderful.  With these translations, you would be able to follow along during the Matins and Vespers services. 

Love, elephant
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2013, 02:40:17 PM »

Michal seems like he's the only one being honest in this thread, imo. He's the only one who has taken the OP's words seriously when she she says she doesn't want to convert. Everyone else is like "Suuuuuure you won't convert  Wink Wink Wink" and then they fill the thread with anecdotes proving the liturgy's magical attraction will make her convert or taking passive aggressive jabs at Catholicism. Seems manipulative and dishonest to me. Michal is the only one who is actually respecting the OP, the only one who believes her and who isn't treating her as a confused wanderer going through the standard "I'm in denial about wanting to convert" phase.

If the OP doesn't want to convert ever, so what?  That's between her and God.  As long as she's not sheep-stealing or causing a ruckus in the parish, what's our problem?  Certainly, no one is welcome anywhere if they are not welcome to enter a church to pray and learn in peace. 

As I read the first post, I didn't take it as a declaration that she had no intention of ever converting.  I read it as a question about the appropriateness of "an outsider" associating herself with the community without being a part of it.  Orthodoxy's a fairly intimidating religion for those who are not so familiar with it, and it's commendable that people want to go through the trouble of asking questions in advance in order to be respectful.

That has nothing to do with my post. I was criticizing the manipulativeness and desperation for converts of the Orthodox, not Joanna.
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2013, 02:45:27 PM »

Michal seems like he's the only one being honest in this thread, imo. He's the only one who has taken the OP's words seriously when she she says she doesn't want to convert. Everyone else is like "Suuuuuure you won't convert  Wink Wink Wink" and then they fill the thread with anecdotes proving the liturgy's magical attraction will make her convert or taking passive aggressive jabs at Catholicism. Seems manipulative and dishonest to me. Michal is the only one who is actually respecting the OP, the only one who believes her and who isn't treating her as a confused wanderer going through the standard "I'm in denial about wanting to convert" phase.

If the OP doesn't want to convert ever, so what?  That's between her and God.  As long as she's not sheep-stealing or causing a ruckus in the parish, what's our problem?  Certainly, no one is welcome anywhere if they are not welcome to enter a church to pray and learn in peace. 

As I read the first post, I didn't take it as a declaration that she had no intention of ever converting.  I read it as a question about the appropriateness of "an outsider" associating herself with the community without being a part of it.  Orthodoxy's a fairly intimidating religion for those who are not so familiar with it, and it's commendable that people want to go through the trouble of asking questions in advance in order to be respectful.

That has nothing to do with my post. I was criticizing the manipulativeness and desperation for converts of the Orthodox, not Joanna.

Thank you, all,  for your understanding and support, the resources and suggestions.  This link is wonderful!  Just what I needed, Greek and English side by side.  Thank you so much!!

Joanna
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2013, 02:50:46 PM »

I've never heard of it being practiced anywhere inside or outside monasteries. Which monasteries you are talking about?

When I was not yet Orthodox, a couple invited me to St. Anthony's in Arizona (at least I'm pretty sure it was that one). They told me I would need to leave during some parts of the service. I never ended up going anyway.

Interesting. I wonder whether this is practice of US Ephraimite monasteries or private opinion of that specific couple.

"That specific group" follows the Athonite Typikon. 

I've never heard of Athonite monastery who expels non-Orthodox from their services. I admit though that I've never been there.
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« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2013, 02:54:07 PM »

I'd also like to mention to EVERYONE that there are a number of saints who were converted just by walking BY a church.  They did not go into the church with the intent of being converted.  For example, St. Mary of Egypt comes to mind, as well as St. Anthony.  They were outside of the church when the gospel was being read.  Happened to be the same gospel, telling people to sell everything, pick up their cross & follow Christ.  They did not go into the church seeking converstion, yet that is exactly what they received, in a radical way. 

Just adding to the conversation. 
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« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2013, 02:55:23 PM »


Wow!  That's a great reminder.
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« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2013, 04:41:04 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy, the only faith where the members attack you if you demonstrate interest in it.  Grin

it helps us identify the tares
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them'" (cf. Matt 13:24-30).
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2013, 04:41:20 PM »

I'd also like to mention to EVERYONE that there are a number of saints who were converted just by walking BY a church.  They did not go into the church with the intent of being converted.  For example, St. Mary of Egypt comes to mind, as well as St. Anthony.  They were outside of the church when the gospel was being read.  Happened to be the same gospel, telling people to sell everything, pick up their cross & follow Christ.  They did not go into the church seeking converstion, yet that is exactly what they received, in a radical way. 

Just adding to the conversation. 

another

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION

keep them coming  Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2013, 11:27:17 PM »

That has nothing to do with my post. I was criticizing the manipulativeness and desperation for converts of the Orthodox, not Joanna.

Well, I'm sorry for the confusion.  I'm also sorry I don't see the manipulation and desperation for converts that you apparently observe. 
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