Author Topic: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?  (Read 129183 times)

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Offline arimethea

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OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« on: May 27, 2013, 11:20:18 PM »
http://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-tikhon-holy-synod-members-meet-with-metropolitan-jonah
Quote
At the invitation of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Tikhon, His Eminence, Metropolitan Jonah met with a number of members of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America at Saint Tikhon’s Monastery, South Canaan, PA and reached an understanding with the Holy Synod concerning his retirement. Following their meeting, Metropolitans Tikhon and Jonah, together with hierarchs of the Holy Synod and guest hierarchs, including His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, concelebrated the Divine Liturgy marking the 109th annual Pilgrimage to the monastery.

I have read a lot of official church statements, but this may be the strangest one ever. What do they mean by "reached an understanding"?

Metropolitan Jonah has been "retired" for over a year now, what more do they need to understand? If there is a change in his status, why not explain? If there is no change, why even say this?

I am not looking to gossip or speculate; I would just like to reach an understanding of what is being said here.
Joseph

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 12:59:04 AM »
doublespeak?

Maybe the OCA Synod is coming to the conclusion that Met. Jonah is very patient and maybe even a saint.

The fact that the ROCOR Hierarch was present and concelebrated with the OCA Synod is very telling.
After all, didn't he suggest that the OCA Synod treat Met. Jonah fairly in his letter to the newly elected OCA Metropolitan last year?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
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Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 03:24:40 AM »
Perhaps Met. Jonah will now re-enter public life to some extent? Does anyone even know where he's been living?
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Offline Orest

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 08:39:51 AM »
Perhaps Met. Jonah will now re-enter public life to some extent? Does anyone even know where he's been living?
Retired hierarchs do not re-enter public life.  There has been a lot of speculation on the internet that Metr. Jonah would transfer to the ROCOR.  Maybe Metr. Hilarion of the ROCOR was present to dispel those rumours or maybe he was there to take part in the Pilgrimage to St. Tikhon's Monastery.  Let's not feed the rumour mill and just wait for more official press releases from the OCA.

Offline arimethea

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 08:46:41 AM »
Perhaps Met. Jonah will now re-enter public life to some extent? Does anyone even know where he's been living?
Retired hierarchs do not re-enter public life.  There has been a lot of speculation on the internet that Metr. Jonah would transfer to the ROCOR.  Maybe Metr. Hilarion of the ROCOR was present to dispel those rumours or maybe he was there to take part in the Pilgrimage to St. Tikhon's Monastery.  Let's not feed the rumour mill and just wait for more official press releases from the OCA.

I agree that we should not be fueling rumors, that is what makes this press release from the OCA so curious, because all it does is fuel rumors.
Joseph

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 09:34:57 AM »
I would guess that some further release will be forthcoming, but they want to make sure they have details finalized on whatever this "understanding" might be.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 09:57:29 AM »
http://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-tikhon-holy-synod-members-meet-with-metropolitan-jonah
Quote
At the invitation of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Tikhon, His Eminence, Metropolitan Jonah met with a number of members of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America at Saint Tikhon’s Monastery, South Canaan, PA and reached an understanding with the Holy Synod concerning his retirement. Following their meeting, Metropolitans Tikhon and Jonah, together with hierarchs of the Holy Synod and guest hierarchs, including His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, concelebrated the Divine Liturgy marking the 109th annual Pilgrimage to the monastery.

I have read a lot of official church statements, but this may be the strangest one ever. What do they mean by "reached an understanding"?

Metropolitan Jonah has been "retired" for over a year now, what more do they need to understand? If there is a change in his status, why not explain? If there is no change, why even say this?

I am not looking to gossip or speculate; I would just like to reach an understanding of what is being said here.

An understanding concerning a retirement = how much money the organization is going to pay the retiree and on what schedule.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:34 AM »
If you want to avoid gossip and speculation, then you have to take the statement at face value.

The facts are pretty clear:

1) The Holy Synod and Metropolitan Jonah have not been able to agree on the terms of the latter's retirement.

2) There have been a number of meetings in an attempt to reconcile the two positions.

3) Any agreement requires the consent of the Holy Synod.

4) Many members of the Holy Synod attend the pilgrimage, and it would not be out-of-the-ordinary for them to meet and discuss issues while gathered.

5) Metropolitan Hilarion has been invited to numerous OCA activities since reconciliation, and this invitation was extended some time ago.

So, I think that drawing any conclusions from Met. Hilarion's presence at the pilgrimage having to do with the situation of Met. Jonah is premature and speculative.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 10:04:02 AM »
There is also a question about where he should live, and whether he can remain in the territory of his former diocese.

http://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-tikhon-holy-synod-members-meet-with-metropolitan-jonah
Quote
At the invitation of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Tikhon, His Eminence, Metropolitan Jonah met with a number of members of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America at Saint Tikhon’s Monastery, South Canaan, PA and reached an understanding with the Holy Synod concerning his retirement. Following their meeting, Metropolitans Tikhon and Jonah, together with hierarchs of the Holy Synod and guest hierarchs, including His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, concelebrated the Divine Liturgy marking the 109th annual Pilgrimage to the monastery.

I have read a lot of official church statements, but this may be the strangest one ever. What do they mean by "reached an understanding"?

Metropolitan Jonah has been "retired" for over a year now, what more do they need to understand? If there is a change in his status, why not explain? If there is no change, why even say this?

I am not looking to gossip or speculate; I would just like to reach an understanding of what is being said here.

An understanding concerning a retirement = how much money the organization is going to pay the retiree and on what schedule.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 01:47:45 PM »
If you want to avoid gossip and speculation, then you have to take the statement at face value.

The facts are pretty clear:

1) The Holy Synod and Metropolitan Jonah have not been able to agree on the terms of the latter's retirement.

2) There have been a number of meetings in an attempt to reconcile the two positions.

3) Any agreement requires the consent of the Holy Synod.

4) Many members of the Holy Synod attend the pilgrimage, and it would not be out-of-the-ordinary for them to meet and discuss issues while gathered.

5) Metropolitan Hilarion has been invited to numerous OCA activities since reconciliation, and this invitation was extended some time ago.

So, I think that drawing any conclusions from Met. Hilarion's presence at the pilgrimage having to do with the situation of Met. Jonah is premature and speculative.


Here is a list of the bishops whose picture has appeared during the annual pilgrimage/commencement (OCA unless otherwise specified):

Metropolitans Tikhon, Hilarion (ROCOR), Herman and Jonah
Archbishops Justinian (ROC) and Benjamin
Bishops Mark, Melchisedek and Michael

Offline Punch

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 01:56:13 PM »
I would guess that some further release will be forthcoming, but they want to make sure they have details finalized on whatever this "understanding" might be.

The understanding between them all may well be that he is going to Anticoch.
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Offline Orual

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 02:43:43 PM »
Perhaps Met. Jonah will now re-enter public life to some extent? Does anyone even know where he's been living?

His Beatitude has remained living in Washington, DC, and has racked up quite a number of YouTube videos of excellent sermons and Bible studies on the ROCOR cathedral's channel.  http://www.youtube.com/user/StJohnDC 
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Offline augustin717

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 04:30:21 PM »
Waiting forVarvaras's opinion. Seriously she gets it better than all other orthodox pundits out there.
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 05:03:29 PM »
Waiting forVarvaras's opinion. Seriously she gets it better than all other orthodox pundits out there.

That is where I got the Antioch angle.  Not that I read any of her stuff, of course (wink wink).
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 05:20:13 PM »
Waiting forVarvaras's opinion. Seriously she gets it better than all other orthodox pundits out there.

That is where I got the Antioch angle.  Not that I read any of her stuff, of course (wink wink).

She might have some serious arguments thanks to some internal sources but the style and agenda make them very difficult to be dehulled from all that thrash there.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:21:39 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 05:21:45 PM »
Waiting forVarvaras's opinion. Seriously she gets it better than all other orthodox pundits out there.

That is where I got the Antioch angle.  Not that I read any of her stuff, of course (wink wink).

She might have some serious arguments due to some external input but the style and agenda make them very difficult to be dehulled from all that thrash there.


Agree.
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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 06:32:53 PM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:40:12 PM by Seraphim98 »

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 06:47:57 PM »
Here is a list of the bishops whose picture has appeared during the annual pilgrimage/commencement (OCA unless otherwise specified):

Metropolitans Tikhon, Hilarion (ROCOR), Herman and Jonah
Archbishops Justinian (ROC) and Benjamin
Bishops Mark, Melchisedek and Michael

Kinda sad only MP sent their guest representatives to such major event.
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Offline Punch

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 07:05:11 PM »
The Antiochians make sense because it is not an obvious match.  I think that there is too much bad blood regarding this among the Slavic jurisdictions.  Antiochians are a clean sheet regarding +Jonah.  Add to that the things that you mentioned below, this may be the best thing all around.  It would certainly be a far more "canonical" fit for Antioch to accept a real Bishop from the OCA than the OCA's acceptance as Bishop a man who had been defrocked by ROCOR.

Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 07:30:36 PM »
Here is a list of the bishops whose picture has appeared during the annual pilgrimage/commencement (OCA unless otherwise specified):

Metropolitans Tikhon, Hilarion (ROCOR), Herman and Jonah
Archbishops Justinian (ROC) and Benjamin
Bishops Mark, Melchisedek and Michael

Kinda sad only MP sent their guest representatives to such major event.

I doubt any invitations went out to other American jurisdictions. Protocol would preclude a bishop from just showing up.

Anyway, the American Memorial Day weekend is host to a number of annual events for other Orthodox in America, plus some have transferred traditional cemetery commemorations to this weekend. So there's nothing to be "sad" about.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 07:31:14 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 10:04:16 PM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 10:29:44 PM »
As an Antiochian, I can tell you that this appears highly improbable.  First, there would be no place for him to stay aside from the Village (which I think must be far too rural for one now accustomed to DC).  Second, we care barely afford all of our Auxiliary Bishops, let alone a retired metropolitan.

If he were to be 'received,' it would be much more symbolic, not unlike the OCA's reception of Archbishop Lazar Puhalo.  I don't think Met. Philip has anything for him to do.

It would also require action by the Holy Synod of Antioch, since technically Met. Philip cannot receive a hierarch on his own and would need to advise the Synod.  Remember, the Antiochian Archdiocese is an Eparchy (i.e. a diocese in the classical sense) and has no canonical Holy Synod per se, though the Auxiliary Bishops do regularly meet with the Metropolitan, and these meetings are often called the 'Local Synod.'

Following normal practice, Met. Jonah would have to transferred to the Holy Synod of Antioch.


Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 11:02:42 PM »
As an Antiochian, I can tell you that this appears highly improbable.  First, there would be no place for him to stay aside from the Village (which I think must be far too rural for one now accustomed to DC).  Second, we care barely afford all of our Auxiliary Bishops, let alone a retired metropolitan.

If he were to be 'received,' it would be much more symbolic, not unlike the OCA's reception of Archbishop Lazar Puhalo.  I don't think Met. Philip has anything for him to do.

It would also require action by the Holy Synod of Antioch, since technically Met. Philip cannot receive a hierarch on his own and would need to advise the Synod.  Remember, the Antiochian Archdiocese is an Eparchy (i.e. a diocese in the classical sense) and has no canonical Holy Synod per se, though the Auxiliary Bishops do regularly meet with the Metropolitan, and these meetings are often called the 'Local Synod.'

Following normal practice, Met. Jonah would have to transferred to the Holy Synod of Antioch.


Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

Facts are so pesky. They keep getting in the way of a good "opinion." Thanks for the reality check!

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 12:56:25 AM »
Well, most of us from time to time make such mistakes.

As an Antiochian, there's a lot of stuff in the OCA world that makes no sense as an outsider.  I'm sure our world looks strange to them as well.

When I read this idea of Met. Jonah somehow coming into the AA, I laughed: the former head of an autocephalous church ends up 'under' the bishop of a single diocese outside his own jurisdiction.  I don't think his 'supporters' understand what a huge demotion that would be.


As an Antiochian, I can tell you that this appears highly improbable.  First, there would be no place for him to stay aside from the Village (which I think must be far too rural for one now accustomed to DC).  Second, we care barely afford all of our Auxiliary Bishops, let alone a retired metropolitan.

If he were to be 'received,' it would be much more symbolic, not unlike the OCA's reception of Archbishop Lazar Puhalo.  I don't think Met. Philip has anything for him to do.

It would also require action by the Holy Synod of Antioch, since technically Met. Philip cannot receive a hierarch on his own and would need to advise the Synod.  Remember, the Antiochian Archdiocese is an Eparchy (i.e. a diocese in the classical sense) and has no canonical Holy Synod per se, though the Auxiliary Bishops do regularly meet with the Metropolitan, and these meetings are often called the 'Local Synod.'

Following normal practice, Met. Jonah would have to transferred to the Holy Synod of Antioch.


Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

Facts are so pesky. They keep getting in the way of a good "opinion." Thanks for the reality check!
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 01:01:10 AM »
Is there any possibility of +Jonah returning to St. John's Monastery as abbot?
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 01:13:03 AM »
About 0% chance.

Is there any possibility of +Jonah returning to St. John's Monastery as abbot?
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Offline Orual

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 02:09:13 AM »
When I read this idea of Met. Jonah somehow coming into the AA, I laughed: the former head of an autocephalous church ends up 'under' the bishop of a single diocese outside his own jurisdiction.  I don't think his 'supporters' understand what a huge demotion that would be.

Why do you think a "demotion" would concern anyone?  I think such an arrangement would make Metropolitan Jonah and his supporters very happy, actually.

The Drezhlo is the only source I've seen seriously consider the idea of Metr. Jonah going under the Church of Antioch.  I think it is just a rumor.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:25:39 AM by Orual »
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Offline Punch

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 09:15:17 AM »
The Drezhlo is the only source I've seen seriously consider the idea of Metr. Jonah going under the Church of Antioch.  I think it is just a rumor.

Even she states as much (along with her reservations).  I delete the emails from the site pretty much as soon as I read them (unless they have pretty pictures) so my memory may have failed here, but I do believe the reason this rumor was published was because it came from some sources that she has found reliable in the past.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 09:27:11 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 09:52:21 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP

I don't know of any official statements, but it is something that I have heard several times over my time in Orthodoxy from several people.  I don't think it is necessarily that he doesn't like monasticism in general, it was explained to me that he believes that monasteries breed problems and schismatics here in the US.
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2013, 10:06:11 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP

I don't know of any official statements, but it is something that I have heard several times over my time in Orthodoxy from several people.  I don't think it is necessarily that he doesn't like monasticism in general, it was explained to me that he believes that monasteries breed problems and schismatics here in the US.

This is way off topic! I have heard Met. Philip state many times in public that he has no problems with healthy monasticism and that he does not like lazy monks. There are members of the board of trustees for the Archdiocese who flat out hate monasticism (and anything else that is holy), and say that the Metropolitan is against monasticism, so people take that as fact.

This whole Antiochian tangent is pure speculation, and worst, based off of a rumor from a man who thinks he is a woman.

This is why I was questioning the way this press release was worded. If they say nothing - there is no story. If they explain what understanding they have come to, it kills the rumor mill. To just leave they way they did, it just leaves the door open to the speculation you are all providing. That is why I am asking the question, why would they release this the way they did?
Joseph

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2013, 10:10:08 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP

I don't know of any official statements, but it is something that I have heard several times over my time in Orthodoxy from several people.  I don't think it is necessarily that he doesn't like monasticism in general, it was explained to me that he believes that monasteries breed problems and schismatics here in the US.

Frankly, what you attribute to Metropolitan Philip regarding many North American monasteries contains more than a grain of truth and he is not alone in holding those sentiments. Certainly there are are many outstanding monasteries in the states. I am personally familiar with Holy Myrrhbearers in NY and St. Tikhon in. PA both of which have a fine history. However, the same may not be said of all. Some are disobedient to the proper Bishops, some interfere with local priests and parishes, while many purport to be Orthodox but are vagrante.   Frankly,  there are more than a few who are disrespectful of valid Orthodox traditions which differ from their particular rubric or ethnic practices. Such behavior confuses the pilgrim or pious visitor and has spread schism and dissention in many parishes in many dioceses.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2013, 10:43:52 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP

I don't know of any official statements, but it is something that I have heard several times over my time in Orthodoxy from several people.  I don't think it is necessarily that he doesn't like monasticism in general, it was explained to me that he believes that monasteries breed problems and schismatics here in the US.

Frankly, what you attribute to Metropolitan Philip regarding many North American monasteries contains more than a grain of truth and he is not alone in holding those sentiments. Certainly there are are many outstanding monasteries in the states. I am personally familiar with Holy Myrrhbearers in NY and St. Tikhon in. PA both of which have a fine history. However, the same may not be said of all. Some are disobedient to the proper Bishops, some interfere with local priests and parishes, while many purport to be Orthodox but are vagrante.   Frankly,  there are more than a few who are disrespectful of valid Orthodox traditions which differ from their particular rubric or ethnic practices. Such behavior confuses the pilgrim or pious visitor and has spread schism and dissention in many parishes in many dioceses.
Folks just cant create an Orthodox monastery. Dont they need the permission of the bishop?

PP
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 10:50:08 AM »
Antiochians?  If true that is an odd and unexpected direction. I always figured if he went anywhere it would be some jurisdiction with Slavic associations, given his background. The only angle that makes any off the cuff sense is if Met. Phillip is looking for someone to head a nascent Antiochian monastic undertaking. They do need monastics for sure. I can't imagine Met. Phillip is anticipating the need for a replacement from outside his jurisdiction. Well, there's not enough information out there for much in the way of informed discussion. All I can say is I hope he is allowed to be a full and active bishop once more regardless of the jurisdiction, so long as it is Orthodox. There is no doubt in my mind whichever diocese that might be, if it is to be, it will soon enough begin to grow and thrive. In any event, may it be as God wills.

I am pretty sure Met. Phillip has made his distaste for monasticism well known, so I doubt that is a possibility.
Source?

NOTE: Im not trying to pick a fight, Im genuinely curious.

PP

I don't know of any official statements, but it is something that I have heard several times over my time in Orthodoxy from several people.  I don't think it is necessarily that he doesn't like monasticism in general, it was explained to me that he believes that monasteries breed problems and schismatics here in the US.

Frankly, what you attribute to Metropolitan Philip regarding many North American monasteries contains more than a grain of truth and he is not alone in holding those sentiments. Certainly there are are many outstanding monasteries in the states. I am personally familiar with Holy Myrrhbearers in NY and St. Tikhon in. PA both of which have a fine history. However, the same may not be said of all. Some are disobedient to the proper Bishops, some interfere with local priests and parishes, while many purport to be Orthodox but are vagrante.   Frankly,  there are more than a few who are disrespectful of valid Orthodox traditions which differ from their particular rubric or ethnic practices. Such behavior confuses the pilgrim or pious visitor and has spread schism and dissention in many parishes in many dioceses.
Folks just cant create an Orthodox monastery. Dont they need the permission of the bishop?

PP

Sure,but once created not all remain properly obedient to said bishop's omophor! (At least from the bishops pov.......)

Offline serb1389

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 12:06:01 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me how much information you all have at your disposal. I've never even HEARD of this woman.  Then again, I never really lived in the OCA world. 

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2013, 11:13:41 PM »
I just checked the OCA website, and there has been a change.

Not only does His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah have his white hat and title back, he is now referred to as The Most Blessed Jonah, Former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada.

See: http://oca.org/holy-synod/retired

Looks like some kind of settlement occurred. Now perhaps we can show some respect for his position?
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 12:18:00 PM »
What position is that? He should be shown the same respect that is due to every human being. That does not mean we rewrite history so that he comes off looking better. Did Met. Jonah ever stop wearing the White Klobuk? I see Met. Herman was also wearing his. It was my understanding that former Metropolitans were not supposed to wear white klobuk but return to wearing the black. The fact that both of them were wearing the white ones does not seem to imply anything...

I just checked the OCA website, and there has been a change.

Not only does His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah have his white hat and title back, he is now referred to as The Most Blessed Jonah, Former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada.

See: http://oca.org/holy-synod/retired

Looks like some kind of settlement occurred. Now perhaps we can show some respect for his position?

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 12:31:59 PM »
He is a metropolitan. Metropolitans wear white klobuks. What is the problem?
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 12:54:16 PM »
that is also the old picture of him from when he was elevated to metropolitan.  i don't think anyone at OCA hq has the wherewithal or ability to photoshop a white klobuk into a black one.

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2013, 01:04:26 PM »
He is a metropolitan. Metropolitans wear white klobuks. What is the problem?

Well, my problem is that they haven't put Metropolitan Jonah back in office where he belongs.

The OCA did not make him wear a black klobuk at any point, nor did they stop calling him Metropolitan.  What they did was try to change his style to "His Eminence", rather than His Beatitude.  Now that he is officially "retired", they cannot do that anymore.
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2013, 01:05:26 PM »
He is a metropolitan. Metropolitans wear white klobuks. What is the problem?

I do remember reading on some OCA-related website that, sometime after Metropolitan Jonah took office, there was a "ruling" that, from then on, only the reigning Metropolitan would wear the white klobuk, and retired Metropolitans would go back to black.  At the time, I took it as a sly way to slap previous Metropolitans on the wrist without it really meaning anything.  After Metropolitan Jonah (was) retired, it seems he kept doing what all previous Metropolitans did: ignore that "ruling".  

Offline Seraphim98

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2013, 01:43:10 PM »
I'm glad to see things moving in a positive direction. That said, I do wonder if things will heal sufficiently or those in leadership will change significantly to enable Met. Jonah an opportunity to serve as bishop in one of the OCA's vacant dioceses?  If he does not get that chance it might be good if he started a new monastery…perhaps somewhere in the DoS. I've heard the men's monastery in northern GA has disbanded, so that property if available might be a good spot, or he might help build up St. Michaels in NM if they need an abbot or clergy. My only caveat would be (not that anyone is asking me for my opinions) is that we already have a number of little one and two man/woman monastic enclaves and adding one more would probably not be a good thing…better fill up and support what we have or build a fuller monastery of 7 to 10 brothers or more from the start.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2013, 02:08:50 PM »
I've heard the men's monastery in northern GA has disbanded, so that property if available might be a good spot...

Just FYI, there is a nun there who is trying to start up a monastery, and a ROCOR priest is serving liturgy twice a month.
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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 02:10:04 PM »
I have to say that the lack of knowledge on display online regarding the nature of church governance and Orthodox ecclesiology never ceases to amaze me.

On top of the "rules", reality and personalities have to be layered on to the overall mix.

The retired Metropolitan Jonah has a cult- like following, whether he encourages this or not is irrelevant. How can anyone seriously think the OCA synod, the ROCOR, the Antiochians or any other canonical jurisdiction would give him a serious platform to operate from, potentially creating the basis for schism or rebellion? I suspect the OCA views him like Archbishop Lazor, someone they can tolerate, yet ignore at the same time.  Sort of the relative confined to the attic but for the holidays.

Let it go, he is not coming back to be Primate. The Church, as she always does, will move on and endure.

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Re: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 02:18:40 PM »
I have to say that the lack of knowledge on display online regarding the nature of church governance and Orthodox ecclesiology never ceases to amaze me.

On top of the "rules", reality and personalities have to be layered on to the overall mix.

The retired Metropolitan Jonah has a cult- like following, whether he encourages this or not is irrelevant. How can anyone seriously think the OCA synod, the ROCOR, the Antiochians or any other canonical jurisdiction would give him a serious platform to operate from, potentially creating the basis for schism or rebellion? I suspect the OCA views him like Archbishop Lazor, someone they can tolerate, yet ignore at the same time.  Sort of the relative confined to the attic but for the holidays.

Let it go, he is not coming back to be Primate. The Church, as she always does, will move on and endure.

Also I never cease to be amazed at the speculation and attempts to read the "secret code" of Synodical announcements. Generally speaking, such announcements are carefully written and reviewed to be as clear as possible, and communicate the facts objectively, within the bounds of confidentiality. There are often things that cannot be said, due to legal or privacy issues. And because sometimes the details are none of anyone's business. Or at least that's been my observation. I know that Bishops take great pains over letters and announcements to make sure that nobody could possibly misunderstand or object  - but they always do.  ???
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