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Author Topic: How do Orthodox Define "Uniatism"  (Read 1080 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: May 23, 2013, 08:29:00 AM »

Hi all. I realize this thread has been inactive for some months ... but I'd like to ask, is this the way many Orthodox define "uniatism"
So, I said earlier that I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model.

And what I mean by this is that I accept any means which allows diverse liturgical rites and customs from authentic inculturation, especially over centuries to occur harmoniously with another rite which is the majority rite within a single unified Church.
? I rather doubt it, but ...
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 08:57:21 AM »

Hi all. I realize this thread has been inactive for some months ... but I'd like to ask, is this the way many Orthodox define "uniatism"
So, I said earlier that I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model.

And what I mean by this is that I accept any means which allows diverse liturgical rites and customs from authentic inculturation, especially over centuries to occur harmoniously with another rite which is the majority rite within a single unified Church.
? I rather doubt it, but ...
I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too". By that I mean having the power and protection of being in communion with Rome, but being free to disregard teachings that are uncomfortable.

Then again, Im outside looking in.

PP
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 10:39:13 AM »

uniatism=ambivalence.
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 11:33:00 AM »

I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too". By that I mean having the power and protection of being in communion with Rome, but being free to disregard teachings that are uncomfortable.

Then again, Im outside looking in.

PP

You're starting to sound like A young fogey. Wink
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 11:52:53 AM »

Hi all. I realize this thread has been inactive for some months ... but I'd like to ask, is this the way many Orthodox define "uniatism"
So, I said earlier that I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model.

And what I mean by this is that I accept any means which allows diverse liturgical rites and customs from authentic inculturation, especially over centuries to occur harmoniously with another rite which is the majority rite within a single unified Church.
? I rather doubt it, but ...

I don't get it: why should we orthodox define Uniatism?  The Catholic Church invented the Uniate Churches and they have ownership of the term so let them define it.
See for example:
http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/o-rc/doc/e_o-rc_06_freising.html


'SIXTH PLENARY MEETING OF THE JOINT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION
FOR THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE BETWEEN
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

Freising - June 15, 1990"


Quote
b) The term "Uniatism" indicates here the effort which aims to bring about the unity of the Church by separating from the Orthodox Church communities or Orthodox faithful without taking into account that, according to ecclesiology, the Orthodox Church is a sister-Church which itself offers the means of grace and salvation. In this sense and with reference to the document issued by the Vienna sub-commission, we reject "Uniatism" as a method of unity opposed to the common Tradition of our Churches.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 12:17:23 PM »

I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too". By that I mean having the power and protection of being in communion with Rome, but being free to disregard teachings that are uncomfortable.

Then again, Im outside looking in.

PP

You're starting to sound like A young fogey. Wink
Made me laugh, thanks. Havin a sort-of bad day Smiley

PP
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2013, 08:14:45 AM »

Hi all. I realize this thread has been inactive for some months ... but I'd like to ask, is this the way many Orthodox define "uniatism"
So, I said earlier that I generally view "uniatism" as a decent role model.

And what I mean by this is that I accept any means which allows diverse liturgical rites and customs from authentic inculturation, especially over centuries to occur harmoniously with another rite which is the majority rite within a single unified Church.
? I rather doubt it, but ...

I don't get it: why should we orthodox define Uniatism?  The Catholic Church invented the Uniate Churches and they have ownership of the term so let them define it.

I'm not sure whether this is in response to me or to Christopher McAvoy's saying what-uniatism-means-to-him (which is what I was responding to). But I see your point: Catholics were in fact the ones who invented the term "uniatism", or at least the root of the word without the "ism" (or without the "tism").

See for example:
http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/o-rc/doc/e_o-rc_06_freising.html

'SIXTH PLENARY MEETING OF THE JOINT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION
FOR THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE BETWEEN
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

Freising - June 15, 1990"

Quote
b) The term "Uniatism" indicates here the effort which aims to bring about the unity of the Church by separating from the Orthodox Church communities or Orthodox faithful without taking into account that, according to ecclesiology, the Orthodox Church is a sister-Church which itself offers the means of grace and salvation. In this sense and with reference to the document issued by the Vienna sub-commission, we reject "Uniatism" as a method of unity opposed to the common Tradition of our Churches.

Interesting, interesting.
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2013, 08:16:38 AM »

I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too". By that I mean having the power and protection of being in communion with Rome, but being free to disregard teachings that are uncomfortable.

Then again, Im outside looking in.

PP

You're starting to sound like A young fogey. Wink
Made me laugh, thanks. Havin a sort-of bad day Smiley

PP

Well I try. Smiley  angel
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 01:17:11 PM »

Catholicism lite  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 02:07:33 PM »

Catholicism lite  Grin
I always thought that was Anglican/Episcopalian.
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2013, 02:08:44 PM »

I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too".
This is almost what an Antiochian priest I once spoke with said of Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 03:11:55 PM »

I dont like uniatism. It seems like a bunch of people wanting to "have their cake and eat it too".
This is almost what an Antiochian priest I once spoke with said of Eastern Catholics.
I have to admit, I stole that from my priest's spiritual father, a hieromonk who visits our parish frequently. He was a convert from Eastern Catholicism a long time ago.

PP
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 04:01:18 AM »

In my opinion, "Uniatism" is the idea that unity is more important than Truth, and so disregarding, glossing over, or re-interpreting doctrines in two (or more, I suppose) churches in order to unite them into one.

If The Faith is the same, different externals do not a Uniate make.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 06:49:59 AM »

In common use, it refers to a certain kind of Roman proselytism against the Orthodox Church. Instead of seeking mutual agreement in the truth, it promotes schism. It encourages or allows Orthodox to leave Orthodoxy and set up parralel ecclesial structures, right beside Latin or Orthodox ones, and these parallel structures are encouraged to retain many of the traditions of Orthodox liturgy, provided they agree in theory to submit to the authority of the Pope. In short, a kind of proselytism and a strange promotion of schism in the name of a hasty and merely formal "unity." As such, it is one of the chief ecumenical problems between East and West.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 07:13:14 AM »

In common use, it refers to a certain kind of Roman proselytism against the Orthodox Church. Instead of seeking mutual agreement in the truth, it promotes schism. It encourages or allows Orthodox to leave Orthodoxy and set up parralel ecclesial structures, right beside Latin or Orthodox ones, and these parallel structures are encouraged to retain many of the traditions of Orthodox liturgy, provided they agree in theory to submit to the authority of the Pope. In short, a kind of proselytism and a strange promotion of schism in the name of a hasty and merely formal "unity." As such, it is one of the chief ecumenical problems between East and West.

That makes sense. I would just like to add that "uniatism" is also based on denial of unity among the Orthodox, and therefore doesn't see itself as promoting schism.
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 07:18:37 AM »

In common use, it refers to a certain kind of Roman proselytism against the Orthodox Church. Instead of seeking mutual agreement in the truth, it promotes schism. It encourages or allows Orthodox to leave Orthodoxy and set up parralel ecclesial structures, right beside Latin or Orthodox ones, and these parallel structures are encouraged to retain many of the traditions of Orthodox liturgy, provided they agree in theory to submit to the authority of the Pope. In short, a kind of proselytism and a strange promotion of schism in the name of a hasty and merely formal "unity." As such, it is one of the chief ecumenical problems between East and West.

That makes sense. I would just like to add that "uniatism" is also based on denial of unity among the Orthodox, and therefore doesn't see itself as promoting schism.

Really? I have never read any Eastern Catholic source that took that line. Of course, they don't see it as schism, but not for that reason, as far as I've seen. Could you refer me to any sources?
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 08:57:46 AM »

I would doubt there are few schismatics that would call themselves schismatics.

PP
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 09:03:34 AM »

In common use, it refers to a certain kind of Roman proselytism against the Orthodox Church. Instead of seeking mutual agreement in the truth, it promotes schism. It encourages or allows Orthodox to leave Orthodoxy and set up parralel ecclesial structures, right beside Latin or Orthodox ones, and these parallel structures are encouraged to retain many of the traditions of Orthodox liturgy, provided they agree in theory to submit to the authority of the Pope. In short, a kind of proselytism and a strange promotion of schism in the name of a hasty and merely formal "unity." As such, it is one of the chief ecumenical problems between East and West.

That makes sense. I would just like to add that "uniatism" is also based on denial of unity among the Orthodox, and therefore doesn't see itself as promoting schism.

Really? I have never read any Eastern Catholic source that took that line. Of course, they don't see it as schism, but not for that reason, as far as I've seen. Could you refer me to any sources?

I should have said, unspoken assumption. But it's reflected in terminology -- even, to some extent, in more recent times, e.g.

Quote from: Modern Catholic Dictionary
Nearly all Non-Uniat churches possess corresponding Uniat groups

In my own experience, I've heard ex-Orthodox Catholics say things like "I have given up anything. It's just that now I'm in communion with Rome."
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 09:05:38 AM »

Quote
In my own experience, I've heard ex-Orthodox Catholics say things like "I have given up anything. It's just that now I'm in communion with Rome."
Which an Orthodox would reply, "Then your first statement is not true."

PP
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2013, 10:32:16 AM »

I never understood the big obsession with my fellow Orthodox over Eastern Catholic churches. They are essentially orthodox in union with Rome. It is their choice. If it is a big sin, then let God judge them. I can tell you this much, in the Chicagoland area, the Ukrainian Catholic churches of St. Joe's and Saint Volodymyr and Olha have HUGE attendance when compared to the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of both the EP and the KP. Both regularly have anywhere from 500-2000 people attending their liturgies on Sundays.(yes they have 3 liturgies on a Sunday, so what?)I believe at both the Cathedral of the UOCUSA St. Volodymyr and the UOCKP parish of St. Andrew's they have regularly 100-200 people a week attend liturgy. Even the smaller Uki Catholic parishes are packed on Sundays whereas the smaller Ukrainian Orthodox parishes are maybe 50-75 people a week. I applaud the Uki Catholic parishes here in Chicago for getting their faithful into church on a regular basis. The only Uki Catholic parish that has issues with regular attendence is the Cathedral of St. Nicholas but part of that reason is they were always more "Latinized" than her sister Uki Catholic parishes. Plus that church seats over 2000 so well even with 500 in attendance, it looks empty.
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2013, 10:46:01 AM »

Or "I haven't left something, I joined something."
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2013, 11:05:07 AM »

Quote
I never understood the big obsession with my fellow Orthodox over Eastern Catholic churches. They are essentially orthodox in union with Rome
You're right. You dont understand.

Quote
It is their choice
You know the Greek word for choice, dont you?

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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2013, 11:50:25 AM »

Quote
I never understood the big obsession with my fellow Orthodox over Eastern Catholic churches. They are essentially orthodox in union with Rome
You're right. You dont understand.

Quote
It is their choice
You know the Greek word for choice, dont you?

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So explain to me, why do Orthodox care so much about Eastern Catholics? They aren't hurting anyone or condemning the orthodox church.
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2013, 12:30:12 PM »

Quote
So explain to me, why do Orthodox care so much about Eastern Catholics? They aren't hurting anyone or condemning the orthodox church.
Outside of internet forums and the convertodox, Orthodox dont really think about Eastern Catholics...or Roman Catholics...or protestants...or really anyone else for that matter.
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2013, 01:33:38 PM »

I never understood the big obsession with my fellow Orthodox over Eastern Catholic churches.
...
 I can tell you this much, in the Chicagoland area, the Ukrainian Catholic churches of St. Joe's and Saint Volodymyr and Olha have HUGE attendance when compared to the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of both the EP and the KP.

Interesting ... I generally think the reverse, i.e. Why worry about Eastern Catholics when there are so few of us.
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2013, 03:05:08 PM »

I never understood the big obsession with my fellow Orthodox over Eastern Catholic churches.
...
 I can tell you this much, in the Chicagoland area, the Ukrainian Catholic churches of St. Joe's and Saint Volodymyr and Olha have HUGE attendance when compared to the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of both the EP and the KP.

Interesting ... I generally think the reverse, i.e. Why worry about Eastern Catholics when there are so few of us.

Couple of observations. First, attendance at the UGCC parishes may be greater than for their Orthodox brethren for two primary reasons: a.) Many of the UGCC parishes are comprised of first generation Americans, whose parents and grandparents were displaced by force after World War 2 and have yet to geographically disperse or assimilate as has already occurred to the descendants of earlier immigrants.Check back in thirty years or so. b.) Most others who are self identified as Ukrainians have roots to the former Polish or Austria-Hungarian kingdoms and their ancestors may have been Greek Catholic when they first arrived here. Many who are now Orthodox are so because of dissention in the Greek Catholic community during the period of 1900 - 1940. Also, I don't think that there are that many ethnic Ukrainian parishes tracing their roots to Kiev and eastern Ukraine where Orthodoxy retained its prevalence.

As to Peter's point, it is my belief that Orthodox from a Greek Catholic background think about them more than say Greeks or Russians because they know real Greek Catholics from their own families or old neighborhoods. Greeks and Russians seem to view Greek Catholics a either exotic oddities or something to be feared - until they run into real ones. . 
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2013, 02:09:31 AM »

As to Peter's point, it is my belief that Orthodox from a Greek Catholic background think about them more than say Greeks or Russians because they know real Greek Catholics from their own families or old neighborhoods. Greeks and Russians seem to view Greek Catholics a either exotic oddities or something to be feared - until they run into real ones. . 

This won't add much to the conversation, but that was exactly my experience until I walked into the Saint Joseph Ukrainian Catholic church in Chicago. I visited St. Joseph with my (Latin Catholic) friend and I told him that my Church and this Church had been at odds for centuries, which he apparently didn't know. But when I looked right into the presvytera/matushka's eyes, I knew that was a complete lie. When I actually walked into the church, which is sort of like a cross between a spaceship and traditional Byzantine architecture, I took everything back that I said ever said about Eastern Rite Catholicism.

You know might all be thinking, "what's this kid trying to accomplish with such an irrelevant statement?" Well, nothing, I just had no one to tell that to and I feel like it was a pretty significant moment and I wanted to share it with someone. I mean, what am I going to do, tell my practising Latin Catholic friends, "Hey guys, so I had a big moment today. I stop disliking Eastern Rite Catholicism, a branch of your Church you three have no idea about. I still kind of sort of deep-down roll my eyes at the rest of Catholicism, though, but baby steps, right?"
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