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Author Topic: CNN: Purported faith-healing couple charged in death of infant son who fell ill  (Read 1136 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 23, 2013, 10:01:51 AM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 12:18:35 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 12:33:19 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 12:42:09 PM »

Lord have mercy!

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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 12:44:36 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 01:11:30 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 01:12:04 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah, I am. How about that.

PP
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 02:05:28 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP

Was not there a priest who was charged with murder when he baptized a baby who later died.
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 02:08:44 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP
Good god, and you are educating children?

They are two different things. The child was sick AND THEY DID NOTHING.

You are filth
 You are being warned for 99 days for blatantly attacking another poster.  This kind of posting is reprehensible and not appropriate for a Christian Forum.  Please take the next 99 days to really think about your posting style and how to say things to people in a more constructive way. 

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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 02:11:12 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP
Good god, and you are educating children?

They are two different things. The child was sick AND THEY DID NOTHING.

You are filth

Easy there.
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 02:30:38 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP
Good god, and you are educating children?

They are two different things. The child was sick AND THEY DID NOTHING.

You are filth

Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?  #moviequote
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 02:32:39 PM »

Yeah hard to be positive when someone says it's involuntary when it is a clear display of conscious negligence. Or was unsure from the start.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 02:34:08 PM »

I don't get it. Wasn't St. Luke a physician? Why don't these people see doctors?
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 02:34:50 PM »

Yeah hard to be positive when someone says it's involuntary when it is a clear display of conscious negligence. Or was unsure from the start.

Involuntary manslaughter just means it was done without malice aforethought.  I don't think anyone is arguing that the parents were maliciously trying to kill their child.  They were stupid, not nefarious criminals.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 02:39:19 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 02:47:44 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.

You would have to prove that they acted in a pre-meditated manner with an intent to injure their child.  It comes down to motive.  Did they want their child to die or not?  If they wanted the child to die, it would be malice aforethought.  Given the facts as they are presented, this would likely be criminally negligent manslaughter.
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 03:06:26 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.

You would have to prove that they acted in a pre-meditated manner with an intent to injure their child.  It comes down to motive.  Did they want their child to die or not?  If they wanted the child to die, it would be malice aforethought.  Given the facts as they are presented, this would likely be criminally negligent manslaughter.

This is not correct regarding the interpretation of third degree murder everywhere.

In States, you can get murder in the third if you can demonstrate the actions of the person who killed the person where so negligent that death was almost certain. Withholding medical treatment which would most likely have saved a life can certain be murder of the third degree in some states.

The lines between aggravated manslaughter and murder in the third or even second degree are not very clear, hence the State often trying a person for all three.
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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 03:08:29 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.

Not necessarily. See my post above. Intent is not always a component in murder cases.

Murder in the third degree is rarely prosecuted as it lies in an odd place between various forms of aggravated manslaughter and murder in the second degree.
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 03:11:27 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.

Not necessarily. See my post above. Intent is not always a component in murder cases.

Murder in the third degree is rarely prosecuted as it lies in an odd place between various forms of aggravated manslaughter and murder in the second degree.

I mean to include, that parents could withhold life saving medical treatment without malice per se.

They could've genuinely believed God would save their child. Or something of the sort. People around here should tread carefully when condemning such actions, since more than a few believe in "miracle working" icons and the efficacy of supplicatory prayer. Of course most don't believe it strongly enough to rely on it.
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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 03:28:02 PM »

Yeah hard to be positive when someone says it's involuntary when it is a clear display of conscious negligence. Or was unsure from the start.

Involuntary manslaughter just means it was done without malice aforethought.  I don't think anyone is arguing that the parents were maliciously trying to kill their child.  They were stupid, not nefarious criminals.
 

Don't you realize that we don't let facts get in the way of passionately held opinion here!!!

Sarcasm aside, intentional homicide is usually accompanied by malice, but in some states "depraved indifference" may get you a murder charge. Where was the CPS (children's services) in this case, the child should have been removed as religious freedom is not the issue.
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 03:33:06 PM »

Where was the CPS (children's services) in this case,

You are kidding right?

Where I have lived they no power (much against the bizarre picture painted by conservative parents who are frightened that they will swoop in stop them from being able to beat up children) and whatever power they have no budget.

In short, this country treats kids like it does it veterans: lotta talk, no help.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 03:39:29 PM »

Because being negligent to your infant who dies of dehydration and bacteria-illness, and could have been
addressed by a doctor, is ABSOLUTLEY malice. If not expressed it sure as hell is implied.

You would have to prove that they acted in a pre-meditated manner with an intent to injure their child.  It comes down to motive.  Did they want their child to die or not?  If they wanted the child to die, it would be malice aforethought.  Given the facts as they are presented, this would likely be criminally negligent manslaughter.

This is not correct regarding the interpretation of third degree murder everywhere.

In States, you can get murder in the third if you can demonstrate the actions of the person who killed the person where so negligent that death was almost certain. Withholding medical treatment which would most likely have saved a life can certain be murder of the third degree in some states.

The lines between aggravated manslaughter and murder in the third or even second degree are not very clear, hence the State often trying a person for all three.

I can't speak for other states, but in PA (which is where I live and this occurred), murder is defined as an intentional killing. first degree is for murders with malice aforethought. Second degree murder is for murders that that occur during the perpetration of a felony. Third degree is for anything that doesn't fit in 1st or 2nd. Voluntary man (which you call aggravated man) is similar to 3rd degree, but there are some differences. Voluntary man requires provocation by either the victim or another 3rd party. Involutary man is a death as a result of gross negligence or recklessness.

In order for the prosecution to prevail on 3rd degree murder, they are going to have to show that the parents intentionally killed their child.  I'm not saying that they can't prove that because I don't have all the info, but from the news coverage that I have seen, it is a situation of gross negligence.  It is not uncommon for the prosecution to "overcharge" someone in order to leverage them into taking a plea deal. That is the way the system works.
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 03:59:50 PM »

In order for the prosecution to prevail on 3rd degree murder, they are going to have to show that the parents intentionally killed their child.  I'm not saying that they can't prove that because I don't have all the info, but from the news coverage that I have seen, it is a situation of gross negligence.  It is not uncommon for the prosecution to "overcharge" someone in order to leverage them into taking a plea deal. That is the way the system works.

Over course the state overcharges, which I am against. But gross negligence, from what I understand, in some States certainly can get your murder in the third but rarely does.

And I also understand, that murder in the third degree is rarely prosecuted as such, but usually tacked on with second giving a jury the ability to opt for third where the sentencing guidelines are more severe than any sort of manslaughter.

Someone should be able to google this. This is what I know from a guy who is a DA in NJ along with other sporadic reading.
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 04:03:45 PM »

In order for the prosecution to prevail on 3rd degree murder, they are going to have to show that the parents intentionally killed their child.  I'm not saying that they can't prove that because I don't have all the info, but from the news coverage that I have seen, it is a situation of gross negligence.  It is not uncommon for the prosecution to "overcharge" someone in order to leverage them into taking a plea deal. That is the way the system works.

Over course the state overcharges, which I am against. But gross negligence, from what I understand, in some States certainly can get your murder in the third but rarely does.

And I also understand, that murder in the third degree is rarely prosecuted as such, but usually tacked on with second giving a jury the ability to opt for third where the sentencing guidelines are more severe than any sort of manslaughter.

Someone should be able to google this. This is what I know from a guy who is a DA in NJ along with other sporadic reading.

I have never heard of charging someone with murder for gross negligence, that would be a scary precedent.  Hope it stays away from PA!  I was able to find the PA statute for homicide charges, so this might be of benefit in shedding some light on things.

http://pghdefense.com/charges-for-homicide-murder-manslaughter-and-involuntary-manslaughter-in-the-commonwealth-of-pennsylvania/
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 04:07:57 PM »

Is it 'lack of faith' if I believe God sometimes helps us through the means of miraculous cures and other times through the means of doctors and hospitals? After all, St. Luke was a physician.
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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 06:06:09 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

We can not say that they are just wrong, they are guilty. Because they knew what will happen as a result of their actions. Every reasonable person could know what would have happened if bacteria in a baby is not treated. They can not say that they did not knew what will happen as a result of their actions. So, if they knew the result of their actions, yes, they are guilty, because in law, guilt is defined as being responsible for an offence. Can guilt be find in this case? Definitely!
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 07:04:19 PM »

Quote
The couple already was on probation after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, who also died after the Shaibles refused to get medical attention as the child suffered bacterial pneumonia.

Not the first child of theirs to die.
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 07:11:06 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP

How can it be "involuntary"?  They voluntarily chose not to get their child medical attention.  The parents believe in a lie (that it is always God's will to physically heal people), and their child paid for it with his life. 
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katherine 2001
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 07:12:30 PM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

We can not say that they are just wrong, they are guilty. Because they knew what will happen as a result of their actions. Every reasonable person could know what would have happened if bacteria in a baby is not treated. They can not say that they did not knew what will happen as a result of their actions. So, if they knew the result of their actions, yes, they are guilty, because in law, guilt is defined as being responsible for an offence. Can guilt be find in this case? Definitely!


Especially since they had already had another child die of illness before this one!
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DuxI
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 07:51:25 PM »


Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP

If your baby receives all the attention that is needed, you will in no way be charged as murdered. If your baby, after the baptism, starts to cough, and if you run to the doctor, receive the necessary treatment, do all that you are told, and if, (God forbids!!!), something goes bad ( in babies that can sometimes happen), then, there is no guilt in you case, because you did all that is needed. You will not be responsible because you acted with the attention that the law requires. If you warm the baby that is sick, give the therapy, feed well, in no way you can be charged with homicide.
These parents had child with pneumonia. Pneumonia is not something that kills in few hours. Bacterial pneumonia is characterized with high fever, coughing etc. and can be easily recognized.  
In their case, they saw that something is bad and did not react at all. And they were responsible to act, because that was not just anybody, but the person, for which, according to the law, they need to take care. And as reasonable people, they knew the result of such negligence. So, it is obvious that they are guilty, because they knew that their negligence will lead to death, because babies can not take care for themselves and go to the doctor when needed.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:52:35 PM by DuxI » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2013, 08:09:39 PM »

This would be my defense for the case......

Lawyer: I would like to present defense evidence #1 (presents a US penny to defendant), can you read what's above the image of president Lincons head?

Defendant: In God we trust

Lawyer: the defense rests
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2013, 08:14:09 PM »

This would be my defense for the case......

Lawyer: I would like to present defense evidence #1 (presents a US penny to defendant), can you read what's above the image of president Lincons head?

Defendant: In God we trust

Lawyer: the defense rests

Hey now, that spotless defense may not work for much longer if the new lawsuit over "in God we trust" goes through.
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2013, 08:18:33 PM »

I think I'll just take my son to the doctor...
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2013, 08:23:31 PM »

This would be my defense for the case......

Lawyer: I would like to present defense evidence #1 (presents a US penny to defendant), can you read what's above the image of president Lincons head?

Defendant: In God we trust

Lawyer: the defense rests

The prosecutor to what will one answer with: You Honour, one of the first lessons we learned as lawyers is that we can enjoy our rights and freedoms as long as we do not violate other people's rights and freedoms.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2013, 08:41:18 PM »

This would be my defense for the case......

Lawyer: I would like to present defense evidence #1 (presents a US penny to defendant), can you read what's above the image of president Lincons head?

Defendant: In God we trust

Lawyer: the defense rests

The prosecutor to what will one answer with: You Honour, one of the first lessons we learned as lawyers is that we can enjoy our rights and freedoms as long as we do not violate other people's rights and freedoms.  Wink

Defendant: judge I freely made a large donation to your campaign fund

Judge: your free to go

 Cheesy
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2013, 10:26:17 PM »

No one here has the faith of a speck of mustard dust. If you did, God would heal your child.

Perhaps these people should be prosecuted for hubris.
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2013, 07:42:27 AM »

(CNN) -- Parents already on court notice to provide medical care for their children have been charged with third-degree murder in the death of their infant son, Philadelphia authorities announced Wednesday
Herbert and Catherine Shaible's son, Brandon, died April 18 from dehydration and bacterial pneumonia. But his death was ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia medical examiner's office because the Shaibles -- purportedly followers of a faith-healing doctrine -- did not seek medical help for the sick infant, authorities said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/pennsylvania-faith-healing-death/index.html?hpt=us_c2
Ehhhhhh, dont know how to feel about this one. Were they wrong? Absolutely. however, being charged for a homicide? Hmmmmmm.....

PP

Wow. And yet you are so clear when the person is a few hundred cells in size.
Yeah I got a little sick reading his reply.
Well, at first I was like, "Absolutely!" Then I thought, what about a baby getting pneumonia from baptism or something like that? Should I be looked at as I murdered my kid?

I'd think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate, but not something like 1st degree murder.

PP
Good god, and you are educating children?

They are two different things. The child was sick AND THEY DID NOTHING.

You are filth
So Im filth for not being sure how I come down on a subject right away?

*GASP* To think they let me teach for having a different opinion on something! How horrid! Not only that, but they nominated me for teacher of the year! The monsters!

As for you calling me filth I could not care less what you think. You are a stranger on a forum where I waste my spare time and in no way impact my life or people who respect me or love me. So go fornicate yourself with the nearest fence post. It'll give you something to do in between looking down on those that think differently than you.

PP
 99 Day warning for attacking another poster. 

While I understand that you were provoked in this circumstance, two wrongs do not make a right, and we ARE called to turn the other cheek.  You also could have dealt with the situation in a much more constructive way. 

I will not stand for this kind of talk amongst posters in the boards I am responsible for.  The moderation is severe because your words were severe. 

Christ is Risen! 

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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2013, 10:07:58 AM »

I'm locking this until I think through your posts.
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2013, 02:38:19 PM »

I am reopenning this thread because I do believe that the news article is important for our Christian context.  I do also believe that we can all be adults about this and discuss it in a meaningful and respectful manner. 

Please keep in mind that a small child died and we should all tread VERY carefully where that is concerned. 
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2013, 03:18:35 PM »

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The couple already was on probation after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, who also died after the Shaibles refused to get medical attention as the child suffered bacterial pneumonia.

Not the first child of theirs to die.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2013, 07:13:24 AM »

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The couple already was on probation after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, who also died after the Shaibles refused to get medical attention as the child suffered bacterial pneumonia.

Not the first child of theirs to die.

All the more reason to ask where were the CPS?

I spent fifteen years or so working with them. As was posted, the popular perception of CPS overreach is generally a myth (except of course when YOU 'know' the mom, blah, blah,blah...) With a prior child death from other than accident or treated illness, you should be in the data base and the birth alone should have triggered CPS intervention, up to and including removal. Even in cases of stressed budgets, the inaction here is puzzling.

While there certainly are cases of judicial corruption, as a whole the system does not operate that way in the USA, even in Pennsylvania where a juvenile court scandal involving private prison/placements and a judge resulted in a long sentence for the corrupt judge.
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2013, 02:22:11 PM »

All the more reason to ask where were the CPS?

I spent fifteen years or so working with them. As was posted, the popular perception of CPS overreach is generally a myth (except of course when YOU 'know' the mom, blah, blah,blah...) With a prior child death from other than accident or treated illness, you should be in the data base and the birth alone should have triggered CPS intervention, up to and including removal. Even in cases of stressed budgets, the inaction here is puzzling.

While there certainly are cases of judicial corruption, as a whole the system does not operate that way in the USA, even in Pennsylvania where a juvenile court scandal involving private prison/placements and a judge resulted in a long sentence for the corrupt judge.

The article says they were under court order to provide health care for any future cases where a child needed it. The first case was deemed invol. manslaughter, and because of the court order this second case is being handled as murder. So the courts were definitely involved at least, but didn't feel it should take all current or future children after the first offense. That will likely change after this case.
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2013, 04:42:04 PM »

All the more reason to ask where were the CPS?

I spent fifteen years or so working with them. As was posted, the popular perception of CPS overreach is generally a myth (except of course when YOU 'know' the mom, blah, blah,blah...) With a prior child death from other than accident or treated illness, you should be in the data base and the birth alone should have triggered CPS intervention, up to and including removal. Even in cases of stressed budgets, the inaction here is puzzling.

While there certainly are cases of judicial corruption, as a whole the system does not operate that way in the USA, even in Pennsylvania where a juvenile court scandal involving private prison/placements and a judge resulted in a long sentence for the corrupt judge.

The article says they were under court order to provide health care for any future cases where a child needed it. The first case was deemed invol. manslaughter, and because of the court order this second case is being handled as murder. So the courts were definitely involved at least, but didn't feel it should take all current or future children after the first offense. That will likely change after this case.

The level of neglect and/or abuse needed to remove children children for the long term is necessarily set to a high  bar, the urban mythology to the contrary notwithstanding. The family was likely court ordered to remain in services and there was probably a detailed dispositional order setting out the case plan. However, that alone won't guarantee a positive outcome. There are too many variables, including clogged court calendars for mandated review hearings, overburdened case workers, I could go on and on...I hope the court and protective system actions and possible failures here are carefully scrutinized to see what else might have been done. Glad I'm retired, the system beats you up emotionally, physically and mentally.
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2013, 09:45:51 PM »

The level of neglect and/or abuse needed to remove children children for the long term is necessarily set to a high  bar, the urban mythology to the contrary notwithstanding. The family was likely court ordered to remain in services and there was probably a detailed dispositional order setting out the case plan. However, that alone won't guarantee a positive outcome. There are too many variables, including clogged court calendars for mandated review hearings, overburdened case workers, I could go on and on...I hope the court and protective system actions and possible failures here are carefully scrutinized to see what else might have been done. Glad I'm retired, the system beats you up emotionally, physically and mentally.
I think this case is beyond just CPS.

After the death of their first child in 2009, "One condition of their 10-year probation was a requirement that they seek medical attention and follow medical advice if any of their children were to get sick in the future..." The child that just died was an infant. Chances are there would have been no opportunity for CPS to investigate or otherwise be involved before the child's death.

If this case says anything, it is arguably that the court was not strict enough after the first child's death for not restricting the parents' ability to bear and retain further children. So less ado about CPS and more ado about the court decision in question.
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« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2013, 12:17:57 AM »

Good. They murdered the child, plain and simple. They willingly neglected to get him medical attention, knowing the risks involved, and thus, are responsible for his death. It's not like it was accidental or something--in which case, I'd say it was a manslaughter--but they willingly rejected medical attention for the child and are being tried for the murderers they are.
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