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Author Topic: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven  (Read 7505 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2013, 10:13:57 AM »

I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.


After this incident happened, and whenever it was brought up, this was the common explanation offered for the act.  But it's insufficient, IMO.  First of all, was it a habit of his to kiss gifts given to him by diplomats, religious leaders, and other high level delegations?  When the Patriarch of Antioch visited Rome with some Indian bishops, and the latter gifted JPII with some native handicrafts, did he kiss them?  No photos were leaked of a Pope kissing miniature boats and elephants.  Smiley 

More than that, though, he's the Pope.  As Pope, he's the head of the largest Christian body in the world, and so even within Christendom, he's an influential figure, especially back then, when he was Pope for so long that not too many really remembered the last one.  Outside of Christendom, he's the head of the religion, or at least its visible face and spokesman, for all intents and purposes.  He may have to be diplomatic, but there are ways to show that which also do not appear to be idolatry.  No "diplomat" kisses gifts. 

As I said earlier, I think it has more to do with JPII the person.  Whether you want to ascribe some syncretist views to him, or his own understanding of "inter-religious dialogue" and whether diplomatic kissing is acceptable, or JPII as an actor who understood the visual impact of signs and gestures, or whatever, I think it has more to do with the man. 
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« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2013, 12:26:01 PM »

If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?

options:

1. This is evil = No veneration

2. This has no grace = No veneration

3. This has a degree of grace sufficient to be worthy of veneration. Ergo it has at least some power to save = veneration

4. One religion is pretty much as good as the next = veneration

5. I'm nervous and wasnt thinking. I should never have done that. My teachings contradict my actions = veneration

Now lets move on to Pope Francis whose teachings we are just now learning more about. He has strongly implied that other religions have the power to save. He said Jews have a special place and therfore need not covert, for just one example.

Counting down to when he kisses a Koran...   
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« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM »

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-god-redeemed-everyone-not-just-catholics/

Pope Francis: God redeemed everyone, ‘not just Catholics’

...To both atheists and believers, he said that “if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.”

In a passage that may prompt a theological debate about the nature of salvation, the pontiff also declared that God “has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!”

“Even the atheists,” he said to those who might question his assertion. “Everyone!”
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« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2013, 12:42:21 PM »

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  Smiley  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  
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« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2013, 12:50:07 PM »

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  Smiley  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  

Some of the most dedicated people I have ever met to helping the poor were Communists. They were extremely self sacrificing.

We should now look at the philosophy of Pope Francis whose idea's do seem to be at odds with Church Doctrine both Catholic and Orthodox when it comes to salvation.  I have already posted something about it.
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« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2013, 01:35:49 PM »

We should be careful not to idolize "good people".

It is possible to do good outside the Church and apart from Christ: we aren't Calvinists who believe that no objective good can come from human effort. But remember that it's not enough to be "good"; we have to be "perfect". If we starting thinking that other people are so "good" that they can earn heaven just by their deeds, we have begun to make idols out of them. No one is that good. We all fall short, which is why we need Christ, to participate in His perfection and that is how we are saved.
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« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2013, 04:11:23 PM »

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.

I never said it was a good idea, I just said it was most likely the Pope's rationale for kissing the Koran. I don't need to defend his decision, but I would at least like to clarify that he was acting out of ecumenical desire, not some sort of idolatrous urge.

Quote
but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency.

Nonsense. Have the representatives of other faiths (Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) kissed Bibles out of "diplomatic leniency"?  Tongue


I can't answer this question. Google it. My point was that I can understand why he did what he did. Maybe "needed" was too strong a word. I would say that the Pope certainly felt compelled to do what he did, given the state of Christian-Muslim relations and his image as a globe-trotting, ecumenical figure. Again, I don't take issue with people criticizing his actions. I do take issue with people misconstruing them and then turning them into arguments against genuine ecumenism.

Anyway, this is where I bow out as well. I have pretty thin skin and I'm prone to bouts of frustration, and this thread is not helping me one bit. And I'm pretty tired of listening to internet watchdogs hurl insults from their armchairs when there's real work to be done. So, mea culpa, God have mercy on me, and peace out.
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« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »

Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
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« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »

Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
Must be a lot of back doors then.

Except I wouldn't call them doors.
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« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2013, 04:35:41 PM »

Now that I think about it, God plays a big role in politics so I guess you really can't shut up about it.
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« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2013, 04:35:55 PM »

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  Grin

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

It's hard to wink at heresy when you're charged with perpetuating heresies, just in new and creative ways. That said, I think Pope Francis would be more accurate with theology than just about any journalist, except maybe Terry Matingly or someone.
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« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2013, 04:38:38 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

They got two stories out of one event...two stories so far.
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« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2013, 04:39:50 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. Roll Eyes

Huff Post says, "Who's infallible now, Pope Francis?"
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« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2013, 04:41:51 PM »

HuffPost is garbage.

I don't care if it's a media aggregate either.

Their "pieces" are junk. I dont care what's going on in the news, but I like to read good pieces instead.

The people commenting are nauseating just like YouTube comments.
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« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2013, 04:47:57 PM »

Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
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« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2013, 04:49:29 PM »

Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
Yo if you are gonna quote me make sure you put my name in there for credit.

And date it to.

My life on here is one big timeline that immediately sloped down into a black sinking whole of nothingness.
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« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2013, 06:05:58 PM »

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's okay, I had the same reaction reading your inane defense of the pope venerating the book which condemns all those who believe in the Life-Creating Trinity as blasphemers.

It's very convenient of you to limit idolatry to premodern paganism. I'm sure if the pope went prostrate before a statue of Ganesh you'd be the first to say Hinduism is not idolatrous because deep down they believe in a kind of modalistic monotheism.
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« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2013, 06:29:50 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master, I would be the first in line to defend him from you bigotted, anti-ecumenical purists. I fully embrace modalism and the One World Religion promised to us by Our Great and Supreme Pontiff, the pope, aka the Anti-Christ. I am completely insincere in all my arguments, but you, with your infallible logic and Orthodox purity, have defeated me. I will now crawl back into the ninth circle of hell, where my Supreme Master Satan will continue to teach me ways to subtly undermine the purity of your "precious" Orthodox Church. Hopefully, you won't be able to catch me next time, otherwise, I'll be done for for sure!

Mwa ha ha. ha. ha. Haaaaaaaaaa.. ugh.
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« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2013, 06:38:43 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     
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« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2013, 06:50:31 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy
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« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2013, 06:52:22 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     

Oh yes, in addition to be a filthy idolater, I am also a card-carrying member of the KKK. At 5'3", you're also correct that I'm a horrible little person. Also, I smell bad. Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!

And for what it's worth, Ganesh is also portrayed with darker skin tones. See Arachne's post. And yeah, I know this because I literally have his images posted on every square inch of my apartment, aka The Den of Satanic Ecumenism.
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« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2013, 06:58:12 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...
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« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2013, 06:59:11 PM »

Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  Tongue
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« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2013, 07:01:59 PM »

Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  Tongue

Oh, my mistake. I definitely shouldn't have called you an Orthodox Christian then. Really, more of humanity-denying spirit-Messiah-worshipper. Welcome, brother!
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« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2013, 06:08:13 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...

Dunno, mine was always of the bluish kind, and quite happy to be so... Tongue
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« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2013, 03:25:02 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand
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« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2013, 03:26:47 AM »

About the pope, at first I thought this would be the last pope we will have after hearing this...

but I looked more into what he said, and he was not saying atheists are going to heaven. He said anyone can do good works which are pleasing to God, even if they are by a non believer.

I do not know if this is correct theology or anything, but I cannot see it meaning "an atheist which does good work will go to heaven"...
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« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2013, 09:14:32 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.
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« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2013, 09:58:54 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?
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« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
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« Reply #165 on: June 07, 2013, 05:25:09 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Sure, I get what you're saying as well. I think it's this: people might THINK they're worshipping a totally different god (or gods).

But only the One True God knows what's in their hearts and what their real intentions are, so only He knows whether they would worship Him, if they really knew Him.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ."
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« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  Shocked 

I need to go to the eye doctor.
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« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2013, 05:46:33 PM »

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  Shocked 

I need to go to the eye doctor.

 laugh  laugh  laugh
My sympathies, but that is really funny!  Grin
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« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.
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« Reply #169 on: June 08, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.
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« Reply #170 on: June 08, 2013, 08:50:00 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.
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« Reply #171 on: June 08, 2013, 09:32:15 PM »

Quotes from "What about the Non-Orthodox, by Fr. David Tillman, page 4 Concilliar Press.

"It must be remembered that it is Jesus Christ alone that judges who is or is not saved. The Bible teaches that not all those in the Church will be saved, but some who are never visibly in the Church are nevertheless near and dear to the Lord.  Jesus is the exclusive Judge of all.  On the last and great day, all human beings who have ever lived will be brought before the Lord for the final Judgement. "

Page 11: "We are simply not given all the facts regarding the mystery of even our own salvation, much less anyone else's.  On one level, we are only given those facts that we need to know in order to be saved,  And , yes, we are only saved in the Church. "
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« Reply #172 on: June 09, 2013, 04:02:17 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   Smiley

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...
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« Reply #173 on: June 09, 2013, 05:32:03 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   Smiley

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...

"do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church?"
The simple answer is No.  Be Christ like, and pray that you may be granted Great Mercy!
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« Reply #174 on: June 09, 2013, 05:38:42 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       
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« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2013, 05:51:27 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
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« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2013, 06:05:08 PM »

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
that is how i have understood it also.
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« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2013, 09:44:06 PM »



Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....
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« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2013, 06:26:16 PM »



Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....

Although this is even a debatable point.  St. John of Damascus lists them as heretics, not as heathen.  This means that they worship and view the true God in a wrong manner, not a different god.  But then again others have argued differently with some good points. 
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« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2013, 01:35:09 PM »

Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
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