Author Topic: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven  (Read 22571 times)

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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2013, 01:45:44 PM »
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
I believe it was stated somewhere that one of his reasons for doing so was the already widespread veneration of St. Peter Faber S.J.

on another note as the product of Jesuit education I'm glad to see this happen I have to agree with HH Francis that Peter Faber is my favorite Jesuit
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 01:46:17 PM by Altar Server »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2013, 02:35:40 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2013, 02:38:42 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2013, 02:40:11 PM »
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
And doesn't the word "God" also come from a pagan deity also?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #184 on: December 17, 2013, 02:53:42 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #185 on: December 17, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

St. Henry VIII?? ;D ;D
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #186 on: December 17, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #187 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:05 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline J Michael

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #188 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:55 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
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Offline biro

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #189 on: December 17, 2013, 03:28:04 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Haven't heard that. Could be true, I just didn't know before.
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #190 on: December 17, 2013, 03:29:45 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
I believe so, I can't find the article I read it in right at the moment but I'll keep digging
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #191 on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:15 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2013, 05:01:42 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
It was never really in effect.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2013, 05:15:04 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2013, 05:36:06 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies while not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:36:55 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2013, 05:36:59 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2013, 05:41:56 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2013, 05:42:31 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

Thank you
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #200 on: December 17, 2013, 05:55:42 PM »
Personally, I think the Vatican's teaching on ex cathedra statements exists to allow doctrine to be changed, rather than to solidify things. The reliance upon ex cathedra statements allows statements that do not fit the criteria to be disregarded, even if they represent a consistent teaching of the Church in the past. You can cast doubt on whatever is convenient in order to push an innovative view. I think the issue with who is considered in or out of the Church is relevant here. And since there's no consensus on which statements are actually ex cathedra, besides a small number of exceptions, doctrine becomes amorphous, and you end up with the current situation where there is apparently no objective quality to the faith other than what the current magisterium says is "tradition."

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #201 on: December 17, 2013, 06:02:01 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #202 on: December 17, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
There are requirements and I've posted them on here before. However one more important thing is for its to be true. The fact is that all salvation comes through the Catholic Church. None is found outside it. God's mercy is infinite and man may not know the depths to whom Gods mercy extends. As such we cannot limit communion to mere physical and visible communion. As such , and what the CCC tries to point out, spiritual communion is a reality because of this and as such Pope Eugenes statement is still in line with the CCC as his pronouncement is speaking of a people assumed to not be in any sort of communion with the church. extra ecclessium nulla salus
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 06:52:59 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #203 on: December 17, 2013, 07:02:26 PM »
Pope Pius IX, more than 100 years before Pope Paul VI and Vatican II.

Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863
#7 "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

Denzinger #1647 (Pope Pius IX "Singulari quadem", Dec. 9, 1854)
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. ...

Denzinger #1677 (Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863)
"It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church..."

These quotes can be accessed on the following site: http://catecheticsonline.com/?p=184
At least as early as the Arian heresy (300's AD), Baptism outside the Catholic Church has been recognized as valid as long as it has been done in the form of the Church --
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 07:08:25 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #204 on: December 17, 2013, 07:21:20 PM »
Pope Pius IX, more than 100 years before Pope Paul VI and Vatican II.

Denzinger #1647 (Pope Pius IX "Singulari quadem", Dec. 9, 1854)
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. ...

Denzinger #1677 (Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863)
"...It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church..."

Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

At least as early as the Arian heresy (300's AD), Baptism outside the Catholic Church has been recognized as valid as long as it has been done in the form of the Church --

But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #205 on: December 17, 2013, 07:34:18 PM »
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8
Thank you sir.
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #206 on: December 17, 2013, 07:36:25 PM »
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't.
If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.  Humankind make choices in this life, some choose to do believe in God and his Son, others choose no to believe and consider this life as their just reward.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 07:40:02 PM by JoeS2 »

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #207 on: December 17, 2013, 07:39:06 PM »
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't. If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.
Once you're in heaven, you don't need 'belief'.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #208 on: December 17, 2013, 07:40:40 PM »
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't. If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.
Once you're in heaven, you don't need 'belief'.

But the 'trick' is getting their first......Then.......But the idea of NOT believing would be pure nonsense.  You would then know your salvation and it's rewards, so I would say any belief would be eternally reinforced each moment of this new life.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 07:41:56 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #209 on: December 17, 2013, 10:32:00 PM »
Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

Firstly I come from a country where there a lot of Anglicans and I have a dew Anglican friends. All of them know about Catholic Church but have no idea what the CC teaches. All they know is Catholic means Mary and the Pope. Most people are ignorant of anything else outside of what they have been brought up in. So no, Anglicans are most certainly generally ignorant of the Latin church.

Secondly Pope Francis only means what Vatican II and Pius IX taught. These  in a state of ignorance and a sincere effort to serve God have found of mercy of God and have been saved by God through the Catholic Church due to a state of communion which exists spiritually. Communion is not fixed to the visible. For many who visibly appear to be in communion are actually not in communion with his church, and Christ will reject them.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
- Matthew 7:22-23

Popes Eugene and Francis speak one and the same message; extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Pope Pius IX explains what it means.

Quote
But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.

Heretical baptisms were recognized by the Church, not just some saints. Although it must be said trinitarian heretics have an invalid baptism. The CC does not teach salvation by their baptism but the the Catholic Church.

You reference St.Augustin as if he opposed our teaching. Alas! He speaks what we speak!  it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is possible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church. This is our very position on the Orthodox Church! Again I will tell you that salvation is by the catholic Church ONLY.
God saves through his Church. So when Ahmed is born in Iran, a Muslim. And Islam is all he knows his whole life and dies living ,according to natural law ,  good life. God is just and has mercy on his souls for it is unjust to condemn a soul for a crime of ignorance. God is just and will save the soul of Ahmed as he kept natural law and as such had a spiritual communion with Gods Church as only those in the Church can be saved. And since Ahmed has been saved, there had to be a way he was in communion with the church and thus was saved through it.

If we take your view, Ahmed would go to hell for simply being ignorant. The fathers do not teach this.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:51:45 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #210 on: December 18, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »
Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

Firstly I come from a country where there a lot of Anglicans and I have a dew Anglican friends. All of them know about Catholic Church but have no idea what the CC teaches. All they know is Catholic means Mary and the Pope. Most people are ignorant of anything else outside of what they have been brought up in. So no, Anglicans are most certainly generally ignorant of the Latin church.

Secondly Pope Francis only means what Vatican II and Pius IX taught. These  in a state of ignorance and a sincere effort to serve God have found of mercy of God and have been saved by God through the Catholic Church due to a state of communion which exists spiritually. Communion is not fixed to the visible. For many who visibly appear to be in communion are actually not in communion with his church, and Christ will reject them.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
- Matthew 7:22-23

Popes Eugene and Francis speak one and the same message; extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Pope Pius IX explains what it means.

Quote
But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.

Heretical baptisms were recognized by the Church, not just some saints. Although it must be said trinitarian heretics have an invalid baptism. The CC does not teach salvation by their baptism but the the Catholic Church.

You reference St.Augustin as if he opposed our teaching. Alas! He speaks what we speak!  it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is possible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church. This is our very position on the Orthodox Church! Again I will tell you that salvation is by the catholic Church ONLY.
God saves through his Church. So when Ahmed is born in Iran, a Muslim. And Islam is all he knows his whole life and dies living ,according to natural law ,  good life. God is just and has mercy on his souls for it is unjust to condemn a soul for a crime of ignorance. God is just and will save the soul of Ahmed as he kept natural law and as such had a spiritual communion with Gods Church as only those in the Church can be saved. And since Ahmed has been saved, there had to be a way he was in communion with the church and thus was saved through it.

If we take your view, Ahmed would go to hell for simply being ignorant. The fathers do not teach this.  

He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #211 on: December 18, 2013, 11:33:56 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:34:47 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #212 on: December 18, 2013, 11:41:10 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Thank you....I get so tired of people twisting HH Francis' words he's very careful about the words he uses and he isn't making any huge innovative statements(from a Catholic perspective)...hes being pastoral not the great modernizer hes made out to be
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #213 on: December 18, 2013, 11:42:38 PM »
Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Funny...and all this time I thought the Novus Ordo Lectionary included readings from the Old Testament.  :P
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:42:56 PM by Mor Ephrem »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #214 on: December 18, 2013, 11:48:51 PM »
Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Funny...and all this time I thought the Novus Ordo Lectionary included readings from the Old Testament.  :P

Mor, I'm confused as to what your point is :P
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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2013, 11:58:24 PM »
Mor, I'm confused as to what your point is :P

The OT is full of prophets railing against the idolatries and harlotries of the Jews and calling them to repentance and the worship of the true God.  The proclamation of the gospel to the Jews in Acts and the rest of the NT is not exactly Marshmallow Fluff, either.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Altar Server

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #216 on: December 19, 2013, 12:07:14 AM »
touche :)
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #217 on: December 19, 2013, 10:30:03 AM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #218 on: December 19, 2013, 02:41:11 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?



Nope
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #219 on: December 19, 2013, 02:44:33 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #220 on: December 19, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »
He also says that Jews don't have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?



Nope

So when the Pope prays in a Synagogue and participates in the various rituals, it's just a way to be polite without any sort of tacit endorsement.  I dunno about that :)

I was at the Enthronement of Met Jonah of the OCA. The Catholic Bishop showed up . he was given a good seat at the front but not near the altar and he could not participate in any of the rituals..
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2013, 03:10:08 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #222 on: December 19, 2013, 03:14:30 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #223 on: December 19, 2013, 03:19:53 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #224 on: December 19, 2013, 03:20:46 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.