Author Topic: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven  (Read 27654 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #270 on: December 24, 2013, 03:24:57 AM »
Your opinion above depends on two extremes.  The first is that the Pope is never wrong, which is why you have to resort to all these mental gymnastics to reconcile conflicts which arise when reviewing the historical record.  Let us pass over that, since the Pope is adequately addressed elsewhere.

uhhh...no. Joseph Ratzinger isnt even writing as Pope in this book (nevrmind that its not even an ex cathedra pronouncement), or did you just conveniently glance overe that part in the article so that you could make this absolutely baseless and ,quite frankly, stupid claim?  ::)
This assertion is so ridiculous that it doesnt even warrant any attention.

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The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture

this assertion is true and your scriptural passages do nohing to harm the truth of this claim. the quotes you provide, in their proper, context do not even come close to what you want them to say.

Like in Matthew 14 , any well versed christian would notice that the command to preach to the jews was way before the command to preach to the gentiles/all nations so this quote has no bearing here.Where as matthew 28 and Luke 16 only show the commisioning of the apostles to go spread the gospel message to the gentiles. again my view is not opposed to scripture as the message of christ is to be borne witness to in all the world and in israel. As acts says. This is done in simply living the christian life without any proselytization or aggressive evangilization. The latter is what is being discussed here as a mass evengelization campaign aimed at the conversion of israel will be a complete failiure as there is a specific time set out for the conversion of Israel when St. Paul  in  Letter to the Romans says:

 “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved” (11:25–26).

And So too Pope Benedict , in  the book, is contemplating the two-stages of phases of history that precede the end of the world. First, there are what Our Lord refers to as “the times of the gentiles,” in which the Gospel is preached to all nations and the gentiles are given the chance to convert, and then the second stage in which the partial hardness that has come upon Israel is removed and so “all Israel will be saved”—a reference to a corporate conversion of the Jewish people at the end of history.

Note how this viewpoint differs from two rival viewpoints: First, it differs from the “Jews don’t need Jesus, they have their own covenant” perspective. This idea, which has been trendy is some Christian circles of late, is contrary to the teaching of the New Testament and to the historic teaching of the Church’s Magisterium. It also is not what Pope Benedict is advocating here. He is not saying that Jews don’t need Jesus or that they don’t need to become Christians. He is saying that they will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world.

Secondly, the viewpoint that the Pope is articulating is different than the “Jews don’t matter anymore; they don’t have any special relationship with God or mission; their role has been completely supplanted by the Church and they have no further special significance.” Again, this position is contrary to the New Testament, which ascribes an ongoing special place for the Jewish people in God’s plan (as illustrated by the end of the world being contingent on their corporate conversion), and it is not the viewpoint that Pope Benedict is articulating. He recognizes, as we will see him say even more explicitly in a moment, that the Jewish people has a special and ongoing mission.

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But your pseudo-theology would have us believe that the apostles were, to a man, stupid for preaching to the Jews instead of waiting for the end and letting them continue in Judaism.  Even the risen Christ seems to be off his game, commanding things that can wait until the end.  What do they know more than the Pope in Rome?  

You're getting desperate now Mor. as I have said the jews will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world. As such it is unneccesary to have a mass evangelization campaign aimed at the conversion of Israel when there has already been set out, by God, a specific time for the conversion of israel.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:59:49 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #271 on: December 24, 2013, 03:44:12 AM »
Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  

Read the quotes from the Good Friday intercessions, Wandile.  That was my main reason for linking the article.  Those are among the oldest prayers in the Roman Liturgy, and they don't agree with your interpretation above until after World War II when the Popes started tinkering with them.  

I know those quotes Mor. and no they agree perfectly.

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

As Joseph ratzinger went on to say in the article, its fine to pray for this as this is a prayer aimed at the fulfillmet of St.Pauls words and those of the fathers. You are trying to find contradiction where none exists. i already showed you the fathers taught too that conversion of the gentiles must precede that of the jews.  here are some more fathers who attest to this :

St. John Damascene:

De Fide Orthodoxa (IV, 26, "Concerning the Antichrist"):

It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. First, then, it is requisite that the Gospel should be preached among all nations, as the Lord said, and then he will come to refute the impious Jews…But Enoch and Elias the Thesbite shall be sent and shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, that is, the synagogue to our Lord Jesus Christ and the preaching of the apostles

Pope St. Gregory the Great:

Moralia in Iob (Preface, X, 20):

"After the loss of Job's possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause.  Thus it is written, 'Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.'"
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:50:08 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #272 on: December 24, 2013, 04:02:25 AM »
The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture

this assertion is true and your scriptural passages do nohing to harm the truth of this claim. the quotes you provide, in their proper, context do not even come close to what you want them to say.

What do I want them to say?

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Like in Matthew 14 , any well versed christian would notice that the command to preavh to the jewws was way before the command to preach to the gentiles/all nations so this quote has no bearing here.

St Paul specifically says in his letter to the Romans that the gospel is for the Jews first and then for the Gentiles.  And scholars believe Romans was written before Matthew's Gospel.  It's not unlikely that the Gospel narrative is composed to convey this truth, not simply as the newspaper account of the life of Christ you seem to take it to be.  

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Where as matthew 28 and |Luke 16 only show the commisioning of the apostles to go spread the gospel message to the gentiles. again my vie is not aooposed to scripture as the bmessage of christ is to be born witness to in all the world and in israel. as acts says. This is done in simply living the christian life without any proselytization or aggressive evangilization.

There is a difference between how one personally "evangelises" and how the Church as a body does this work.  Not every person will be called to emulate the apostles in traveling throughout the world preaching and baptising.  For some, "simply living the Christian life" is the only evangelising God calls them to do.  But the Church as a body cannot be content simply to pray, pay, and obey, as if that was enough.  That's just not Scriptural.  

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The latter is what is being disvussed here as a mass evengelization campaign aimed at the conversion of israel will be a complete failiure as there is a specific time set out for the conversion of Israel when St. Paul  in  Letter to the Romans says:

 “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved” (11:25–26).

What is a "mass evangelisation campaign"?  

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You're getting desperate now Mor. as I have said the jews will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world. As such it is unneccesary to have a mass evangelization campaign aimed at the conversion of Israel when there has already been set out, by God, a specific time for the conversion of israel.

See above.  

I'm not arguing that we need to break out the hoses, round up all the Jews, and baptise them en masse.  But the above is weak.  "Individual Jews may become Christians---as with the apostles and the very first Christians"?  That didn't happen because they saw some quiet people who minded their own business and thought it'd be cool to join them: the NT is full of active evangelisation of Jews.  You make it sound as if it's optional, that if they want to convert, we won't stop them, but if they don't want to convert, that's OK too.  Well, from a human rights perspective, yes, it's their choice and they're free.  But from the perspective of the gospel, no, not at all.  

What God will accomplish at the end of time for the Jewish people in his mercy and by his dispensation does not justify their remaining as they are here and now.  That's a presumption on the mercy of God.  It's like if I continue in my sins because God is merciful and "desires all men to be saved", so surely he'll find a way for me before the end if he really loves me.  That's ludicrous.  Let God do what he will for the Jews in the end, but until then we have to obey his command to preach the gospel to "all nations", to "all creation", and unless the Jews are not "a nation" or "created", that includes them.  And they have an obligation to respond.    
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 04:02:51 AM by Mor Ephrem »
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #273 on: December 24, 2013, 04:19:07 AM »
i already showed you the fathers taught too that conversion of the gentiles must precede that of the jews.  

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation, and I'm not sure the holy fathers would.  Certainly, I read your quotes to mean something other than what you argue. 

The faithlessness of the Jews, according to St Paul, is what has allowed the gospel to be preached to the Gentiles.  God doesn't positively will that faithlessness, as if he wants them to reject him on purpose, anymore than Christ positively willed Judas to betray him.  In both cases, it is something he knew would happen and which blazed a path toward something greater, but he still said about Judas that it would've been better for him if he were never born, and the rejection of the Messiah was the cause for the Jews' loss of the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom (which all passed on to the Church as an inheritance, because the Church is the true Israel of God).   

The gospel is first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles: God takes advantage of the Jewish rejection of Christ in order to announce the gospel to the nations and allow them the opportunity to respond.  Their sin is an opportunity for us to be shown mercy, not a necessary condition (or else it wouldn't be sin).  In his faithfulness to promises he made to those who never rejected him--Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc.--God will give unfaithful Israel another chance, but this doesn't mean that he intends them to be unfaithful today, that he wills them to reject him here and now, or any such thing.

You appear to be arguing that if Jews want to convert, that's fine, but the Church can just as easily ignore the Jews and let them do what they're doing because God will deal with them later.  Well, God will deal with everyone later...so what?   
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #274 on: December 24, 2013, 06:54:32 PM »

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

Why would one want to participate in a Jewish Worship Service is beyond me.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #275 on: April 09, 2014, 01:32:35 PM »
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
Several recent remarks of Pope Francis have caused conservative Catholics to have raised eyebrows.