Author Topic: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven  (Read 22949 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2013, 03:32:24 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2013, 04:43:46 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2013, 09:39:42 PM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #228 on: December 19, 2013, 10:00:43 PM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2013, 10:07:28 PM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.

I don't think that anyone is questioning one's repentance , but your question is " are they still the chosen " and my answer was IOW No.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2013, 10:37:01 PM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.

I don't think that anyone is questioning one's repentance , but your question is " are they still the chosen " and my answer was IOW No.

Not my question and I think the answer is more subtle than you make out. I do agree that their "chosenness" does not consist in having an inalienable right to rule Palestine, which is what a lot of Christians today think it means.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2013, 11:23:21 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #232 on: December 20, 2013, 01:43:47 AM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #233 on: December 20, 2013, 01:47:05 AM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline LBK

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #234 on: December 20, 2013, 02:22:11 AM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so.  

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )

But the prodigal still had to repent of his errors and sins and return to his father.  ;)

I can't speak of how the RC sees this parable, but Orthodox tradition sees the father in the story as a type, an analogue, of Christ.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 02:24:52 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #235 on: December 20, 2013, 03:57:17 AM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #236 on: December 20, 2013, 11:17:41 AM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 11:18:05 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #237 on: December 20, 2013, 03:16:08 PM »

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so.  

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )

But the prodigal still had to repent of his errors and sins and return to his father  ;)

I can't speak of how the RC sees this parable, but Orthodox tradition sees the father in the story as a type, an analogue, of Christ.

Indeed,so must all sinners of they are to accept what Christ offers... That ahs nothing to do with them being chosen or not so I'm missing the point you are trying to make  ???

We view the father the same way.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:23:44 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #238 on: December 20, 2013, 03:20:49 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #239 on: December 20, 2013, 03:21:26 PM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #240 on: December 20, 2013, 03:38:05 PM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #241 on: December 20, 2013, 04:41:29 PM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #242 on: December 20, 2013, 06:21:40 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #243 on: December 20, 2013, 07:15:15 PM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?

Things like this seem to pop up from time to time.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #244 on: December 21, 2013, 03:43:39 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 

Ans who here implied this? Please listen to what I'm saying. Choseness has nothing to do with salvation, it has everything to do with a covenant made with Jacob. Unless you imply God lied now ...
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #245 on: December 21, 2013, 03:51:30 PM »
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?

Things like this seem to pop up from time to time.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says

Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #246 on: December 21, 2013, 07:27:36 PM »
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #247 on: December 21, 2013, 08:44:04 PM »
I don't know about anyone else but Im having a time trying to obtain salvation just for myself nowadays let alone trying to convince others.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #248 on: December 22, 2013, 03:06:48 PM »
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 

Ans who here implied this? Please listen to what I'm saying. Choseness has nothing to do with salvation, it has everything to do with a covenant made with Jacob. Unless you imply God lied now ...

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #249 on: December 22, 2013, 03:30:30 PM »
I don't know about anyone else but Im having a time trying to obtain salvation just for myself nowadays let alone trying to convince others.

Me too.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #250 on: December 22, 2013, 04:10:24 PM »

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #251 on: December 22, 2013, 04:51:26 PM »

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

hmmmm..I dunno. I think it implies that Jewish Worship is beneficial. Either that or he is taking politeness too far.

What if he participated in an Islamic Service? Would that be the same, a little better or a little worse?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #252 on: December 22, 2013, 05:07:53 PM »

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

hmmmm..I dunno. I think it implies that Jewish Worship is beneficial. Either that or he is taking politeness too far.

What if he participated in an Islamic Service? Would that be the same, a little better or a little worse?
Our faith came from the Jews. Islam, on the other hand, is a Perversion of the judeo-Christian tradition. That being said, I don't think it is necessarily prudent to participate in Jewish worship services.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 05:09:14 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #253 on: December 22, 2013, 06:16:25 PM »
Nevermind.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 06:31:53 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #254 on: December 23, 2013, 04:48:32 AM »
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 04:53:15 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #255 on: December 23, 2013, 10:46:38 AM »
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #256 on: December 23, 2013, 11:23:00 AM »
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.
God bless!

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #257 on: December 23, 2013, 12:40:22 PM »
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy, as usual, provides an alternate perspective.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #258 on: December 23, 2013, 12:42:48 PM »
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy, as usual, provides an alternate perspective.
Well, it was interesting to me. I've not come across an RC who is promoting pop-evangelical end times clap-trap.  Maybe they will get into the Harold Camping prophecies next.  :laugh:
God bless!

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #259 on: December 23, 2013, 12:48:01 PM »
Well, it was interesting to me. I've not come across an RC who is promoting pop-evangelical end times clap-trap.  Maybe they will get into the Harold Camping prophecies next.  :laugh:

If Harold Camping can help protect the Pope, I'm sure we'll hear about it.  ;)
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #260 on: December 24, 2013, 01:21:35 AM »
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #261 on: December 24, 2013, 01:22:45 AM »
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy, as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:24:04 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #262 on: December 24, 2013, 01:31:19 AM »
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

But who, exactly, is Israel, Wandile? Is it not those who have accepted Christ as God, the completion and fulfillment of the old Law?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #263 on: December 24, 2013, 01:32:54 AM »
Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy, as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?

I did.  Did you? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #264 on: December 24, 2013, 01:33:49 AM »
St. Augustine:

 
City of God XX.29:

 Chapter 29.-Of the Coming of Elias Before the Judgment, that the Jews May Be Converted to Christ by His Preaching and Explanation of Scripture.

 After admonishing them to give heed to the law of Moses, as he foresaw that for a long time to come they would not understand it spiritually and rightly, he went on to say, "And, behold, I will send to you Elias the Tishbite before the great and signal day of the Lord come: and he shall turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his next of kin, lest I come and utterly smite the earth." It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them. For not without reason do we hope that before the coming of our Judge and Saviour Elias shall come, because we have good reason to believe that he is now alive; for, as Scripture most distinctly informs us, he was taken up from this life in a chariot of fire. When, therefore, he is come, he shall give a spiritual explanation of the law which the Jews at present understand carnally, and shall thus "turn the heart of the father to the son," that is, the heart of fathers to their children; for the Septuagint translators have frequently put the singular for the plural number. And the meaning is, that the sons, that is, the Jews, shall understand the law as the fathers, that is, the prophets, and among them Moses himself, understood it. For the heart of the fathers shall be turned to their children when the children understand the law as their fathers did; and the heart of the children shall be turned to their fathers when they have the same sentiments as the fathers. The Septuagint used the expression, "and the heart of a man to his next of kin," because fathers and children are eminently neighbors to one another. Another and a preferable sense can be found in the words of the Septuagint translators, who have translated Scripture with an eye to prophecy, the sense, viz., that Elias shall turn the heart of God the Father to the Son, not certainly as if he should bring about this love of the Father for the Son, but meaning that he should make it known, and that the Jews also, who had previously hated, should then love the Son who is our Christ. For so far as regards the Jews, God has His heart turned away from our Christ, this being their conception about God and Christ. But in their case the heart of God shall be turned to the Son when they themselves shall turn in heart, and learn the love of the Father towards the Son. "

St. Jerome,  Comm. to the Song of Songs, Homily 1:

"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle (St. Paul)."

After the loss of Job's possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause.  Thus it is written, 'Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.'"

Theodoret

"Paul insists that only a part of Israel has been hardened, for many of them believe.  He thus encourages them not to despair that others will be saved as well.  After the Gentiles accepted the gospel, the Jews would believe, when the great Elijah would come to them and bring them the doctrine of the faith.  The Lord himself said as much: 'Elijah will come and will restore all things.'"

The Venerable Bede:


in his Explanation of the Apocalypse, "it is well believed that the wicked Jews will be deceived as well as deceive, but that others will understand the law spiritually through the instruction of the great prophet Elijah, and will be incorporated among the members of the Church, and bravely overcome the enemy."  

 In a letter to his Abbot Eusebius about his Explanatio:"He has foretold that the Jews are to be made subject to the Church, and that there is to be a trial of the world at large, and that He Himself will come quickly."


 The 10th century French Abbot Adso:


"Lest the Antichrist come suddenly and without warning and deceive and destroy the whole human race by his error, before his arrival the two great prophets Enoch and Elijah will be sent into the world. They will defend God's faithful against the attack of the Antichrist with divine arms and will instruct, comfort, and prepare the elect for battle with three and a half years teaching and preaching. These two very great prophets and teachers will convert the sons of Israel who will live in that time to the faith, and they will make their belief unconquerable among the elect in the face of the affliction of so great a storm. At that time what scripture says will be fulfilled 'If the number of sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, their remnant will be saved'."


St. Thomas Aquinas in Commentary on Epistle to the Romans:


"The blindness of the Jews will endure until the fullness of the gentiles have accepted the faith.  And this is in accord with what the Apostle says below about the salvation of the Jews, namely, that after the fullness of the nations have entered, 'all Israel will be saved', not individually as at present, but universally." ...
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #265 on: December 24, 2013, 01:35:07 AM »
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

But who, exactly, is Israel, Wandile? Is it not those who have accepted Christ as God, the completion and fulfillment of the old Law?

The Jews for Paul was speaking of those that reject Christ. Read the fathers on conversion of the Jews and this passage
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #266 on: December 24, 2013, 01:37:23 AM »
Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy, as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?

I did.  Did you?  

Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:38:18 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #267 on: December 24, 2013, 01:49:29 AM »
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.
The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (article on the "General Judgment"):

"Conversion of the Jews: According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): 'For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'"

The 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia:

" Universal and Cosmic Eschatology.- 6) Notwhithstanding Christ's express refusal to specify the time of the end (Mrak xiii, 32, Acts i, 6 sq) it was a common belief among early Christians that the end of the world was near. This seemed to have some support in certain sayings of Christ in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which are set down in the Gospels side by side with the prophecies relating to the end (Matt 24, Luke 21), and in certain passages of the Apostolic writings, which might, not unnaturally, have been so understood (but see II Thes, ii, s2 sqq) where St. Paul corrects this impression.) On the other hand, Christ had clearly stated that the Gospel was to be preached to all the nations before the end (Matt 24:14) and St. Paul looked forward to the ultimate conversion of the Jewish people as a remote event to be preceded by the conversion of the Gentiles (Rom xi, 25 sqq). "
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #268 on: December 24, 2013, 02:06:26 AM »
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Again, "LOL, no."

Your opinion above depends on two extremes.  The first is that the Pope is never wrong, which is why you have to resort to all these mental gymnastics to reconcile conflicts which arise when reviewing the historical record.  Let us pass over that, since the Pope is adequately addressed elsewhere.  

The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture:

Quote
Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. 9 Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it, and stay with him until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, salute it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor′rah than for that town.

Matthew 28

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Mark 16

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Luke 24

44 Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Acts 1

1 In the first book, O The-oph′ilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, 5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samar′ia and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 2

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you[/b] in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Acts 3

17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came afterwards, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God gave to your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your posterity shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Acts 4

5 On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Ca′iaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a cripple, by what means this man has been healed, 10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 1

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”

And others...

But your pseudo-theology would have us believe that the apostles were, to a man, stupid for preaching to the Jews instead of waiting for the end and letting them continue in Judaism.  Even the risen Christ seems to be off his game, commanding things that can wait until the end.  What do they know more than the Pope in Rome?  
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
« Reply #269 on: December 24, 2013, 02:08:20 AM »
Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  

Read the quotes from the Good Friday intercessions, Wandile.  That was my main reason for linking the article.  Those are among the oldest prayers in the Roman Liturgy, and they don't agree with your interpretation above until after World War II when the Popes started tinkering with them. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).