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Author Topic: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven  (Read 7480 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 22, 2013, 09:27:47 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 09:29:59 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Did he say they'd be enjoying the experience?
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 09:47:54 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I don't really know how to take this. I can't help but feel like he's glossing over some fundamental beliefs about baptism and the atonement...
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 09:52:44 PM »

I think that people are reading too much into Pope Francis's statement. Nowhere does he say Atheists are definitely going to heaven, but merely that Christ died for them so they might be. Everyone is redeemed by Christ's death, but that doesn't mean all will choose to accept God's love in the end.
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 10:01:57 PM »

I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 10:04:53 PM »

The grace of Christ is offered to all men and women and it does touch all people each in his or hers own unique way so that even an atheist has an opportunity to accept God's stirrings and do something good. This does not, however, mean that Pope Francis said that these atheists are saved only that the Redemption touches the entire human race insofar as Christ died for each of us.
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 10:06:23 PM »

I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.
Well put.
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 10:53:43 PM »

Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 11:00:49 PM »

Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 11:03:06 PM »

Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

His words seemed a bit stronger than that to me.
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 11:12:38 PM »

Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

His words seemed a bit stronger than that to me.
What did you take his words to mean?
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 02:30:09 AM »

He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good.

No, he said "atheists." Not "theists with uncertainties." Atheists. People who actively disbelieve in God.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 02:54:08 AM »

I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 05:14:57 AM »

He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good.

No, he said "atheists." Not "theists with uncertainties." Atheists. People who actively disbelieve in God.

Someone who identifies as an "atheist" is not necessarily one who actively rejects God, although that's the classical definition. I think Pope Francis was using the term to describe a range of secular-minded people, from skeptics to agnostics to "hard" atheists. Richard Dawkins, who is in many ways a leader of the new atheist movement, argued in The God Delusion that few people fall into the latter category (believe that God does not exist); even he admits to a sort of "soft" atheism in which he does not believe in God based on the evidence he has but would be willing to change his mind in the future. I think most people who identify as "atheist" fall into that category. Few would be so bold as to say "there is no God," period.

At any rate, he wasn't talking in academic context, where his words needed to be precise. Although I'm sure he'd encourage people with strong disbelief to also pursue good.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 06:17:05 AM »

I think it helps and gives courage to those who have been influenced by the belief in an unloving God. Many atheists reject God based on a false understanding of Him. This kind of people don't need further indoctrination, but a little bit of love to help them see the light.
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 07:21:55 AM »

Good for him. Isn't Atheism a product of the RCC anyway? Maybe the could be a new order in the church, then schism off with schlock icons.
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 07:38:16 AM »

I believe he is just stating in an informal way the very orthodox belief that the law of God is inscribed in everybody's heart.

And that even unbelievers may follow it - although with more difficulty to understand the full scope of what they are doing.

Or in other words, that we know where the Church is and where the Church is not, and we know who is in the Church and who is not *but* we don't know who will be thrown away and who will be called in after Judgment Day.

Salvation is in the Church only, but not everybody who is in will remain in, not everybody who is out will remain out. Some of those who are currently out and will be in may very well be atheists who, in contradiction with their own belief, still loved their neighbors as themselves and God above everything else, even if they call God by His other names: truth, life and meaning of life.

That to discern these things without a proper Orthodox Christian cosmological vision makes everything far more difficult is the reason why announcing the Gospel to them is still extremely important. So many atheists start well with some concern for those around them and ended supporting genocidical regimes, or just becoming sour cynical people who don't believe - and therefore can't love - even their neighbors.
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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 08:08:10 AM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 08:14:07 AM »

I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.

Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.
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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 08:17:22 AM »

Quote
Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

 Cheesy  This is funny because it is so true.  A friend of mine is an atheist blogger and he is unbelieveable prolific in his writings on God and religion.  I think he thinks about God more than just about any Christian I know.
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 08:20:56 AM »

Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 09:08:58 AM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 09:32:13 AM »

Christ redeemed the entire Creation from death. Salvation is salvation from hell.

Christ's work had the final objective of uniting human nature with divine nature.

The trouble is that before that happened, human nature had fallen, causing death. Well, something that will eventually be destroyed will not be united to something that is eternal. So He had to heal this destroying death.

Once death is destroyed by His own death and resurrection, we are all, literally, imortals in the sense that although we die for this "crude matter", we as persons, somehow survive that partial destruction and will eventually be resurrected.

Now, after resurrection, we will be in the very presence of God, in the fullness of His Glory. We won't be able to pretend to be or pretend to believe we are not what we with deep love and obstinance had chosen to be. His Love will be all around us. Those whose life was a lie, a living hell will no longer be able to hide that. That is hell, and accepting truth in our life as soon as possible is salvation from that.

So we have salvation from hell that is participation in the whole truth. The whole truth includes God, God's real character and nature, and that's what makes it more difficult the more one is away from the Orthodox Church (the visible, manifest, undivided Body of Christ).

But one may have contact with truth in lesser manifestations as true morality, true knowledge, true beauty, true justice and true love of what is true.
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 09:40:06 AM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
I just think its someone who doesn't understand the rudiments of RC or Orthodox Soteriology....much like many of the RC and Orthodox adherents, myself probably included Smiley

PP
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 09:45:15 AM »

So, summing up, I believe the Orthodox faith is that we have universal salvation from death and conditional salvation from hell.
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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 10:06:28 AM »

My priest just sent me the link below, with a very nice explanation.

orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

I especially liked this paragraph.
"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »

My priest just sent me the link below, with a very nice explanation.

orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

I especially liked this paragraph.
"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."

Thanks Dpaula, that is a very good article on it.  His comments below the article also give a good explanation of what the Pope likely meant by the sentence I was concerned about.  The Pope was not referencing meeting in heaven, he was talking about meeting one another doing good.
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 10:54:44 AM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
One of the great challenges of the day is to tell people what Christianity actually teaches rather than to allow them to believe what they think it teaches. Such statements as the Pope made here aren’t radical, but they don’t fit the narrative about Catholicism that many have made in their minds.
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 12:06:55 PM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
Like who? I thought it was customary for Orthodox Christians to make no judgments about such things.
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 12:19:50 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2013, 12:20:28 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I didn't read the article, but the Orthodox Church would not say atheists will not experience joy in age to come.

In fact, a certain Orthodox someone, who everyone hates me to mention so often, said some atheists will be absolutely glorified for rejecting God.

I cannot imagine getting the time to source that anytime soon.
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2013, 12:21:58 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes

Why not? For the most part it is a barely legal news aggregator from what I understand. A lot of "their content" is just aggregated material with enough "original" work to not be tied up in lawsuits all the time.
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2013, 01:46:27 PM »

That does sound Universalist and Hippy religionist.
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2013, 02:34:11 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

No, he didn't.

See this link for a good explanation.

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2013, 03:04:13 PM »

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
Exactly. Huff post of course provides its liberal coloring.
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2013, 06:16:55 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this.  

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Someone needs to remind Pope Francis that works alone will not get you into Heaven.  There are too many verses in Scripture to mention that implies that works are the manifestation of Faith.  St. James stated that Faith alone without works is dead.  I say works alone with out faith is definity dead.
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2013, 06:40:38 PM »

Come on guys, stop being so gullible. There's a modernist pope and he's more or less a Universalist with extremely weak ecclesiology. I get it, if you ignore half of what he said and make some logical leaps you can arrive at an interpretation of his remarks that is almost Orthodox. But why would you?
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2013, 08:56:26 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
Some people are taking the huffington posts interpretation on religious issues seriously?
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2013, 08:58:12 PM »

I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2013, 09:03:47 PM »

I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  Wink
That's a rather wide canyon.
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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2013, 09:19:38 PM »

I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  Wink
That's a rather wide canyon.

LOL, very true.
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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2013, 10:44:25 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »

While I do think it wasn't the most prudent choice of words on the part of the Holy Father, the title of this thread and the interpretation by HuffPo and other such rags is incorrect.  Pope Francis has a tendency to speak off the cuff in his homilies.  I like it because his homilies are usually pretty good and I am scared to death of it at the same time because it is easy for something to come out the wrong way when you preach in that manner.  I think he is still learning to be Pope and coming to grips with the idea that everything he says will be dissected all over the world.  Pope Benedict had some things happen early in his pontificate which were taken out of context as well during unscripted comments.   He didn't go off the script much at all for the remainder of his pontificate.  At some point, Pope Francis will likely do the same.   

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/pope-francis-on-the-possibility-of-salvation-for-atheists/

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« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2013, 11:08:27 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
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« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2013, 11:23:19 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/
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« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2013, 11:25:09 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.

To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.  It might be more appropriate to think about it as denial of self will.  In the Catholic Tradition, both St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. Thomas More wished to dress in a more simple fashion but were unable to do so because of the positions that they held, which demanded a certain level of dress.  In order to do this and work on their humility, they wore the nice clothes along with a hair shirt underneath of them, which they told no one about.  What would be more humble on the part of Pope Francis, to do as he is doing, or to wear some of the things which come with the office (which is contrary to his own will by the way), and perhaps do something to make them uncomfortable, wear a hair shirt, put a rock in his shoe, etc.?  

As for any potential reforms, me too.  
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« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2013, 11:29:15 PM »

To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.
Well of course I don't disagree.

And look at all the wealth that is poured into our churches for the iconography, church buildings, vestments, etc. Hardly "humble" either.
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« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 11:37:03 PM »

To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.
Well of course I don't disagree.

And look at all the wealth that is poured into our churches for the iconography, church buildings, vestments, etc. Hardly "humble" either.

To me, it is in fact a form of humility.  We are giving the best we have to God, inadequate though it may be.  We recognize our lowliness compared to Him and wish to glorify Him as best as we are able.  We have lost much of that concept in the West since Vatican II and it is something which I hope we fix sooner rather than later.  In the Catholic Tradition, when Mother Teresa of Calcutta was asked about the chalice of precious metal, etc. in their chapel, she replied that even the poorest of the poor deserved to give the best we had to God.  That has always stuck with me for some reason.

Also, I apologize if I came across as snarky in my post above.  I have been going back and forth with the "humbler than thou" Catholics since the election of the Pope, and it is wearing on me.   
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« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 11:40:35 PM »

I have been going back and forth with the "humbler than thou" Catholics since the election of the Pope, and it is wearing on me.   

Where on earth do you do this?

Wherever that is, move.

How is the more of a problem than the crypto-evo obsession around here about the gays and the outright hatred of Muslims?
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« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2013, 12:06:15 AM »

Its gotta be tough to be truly humble as Pope because everything you do gets reported and analyzed with tons of people commenting on how humble you are.  If people were constantly telling me how humble I was, I'm pretty sure that would go to my head quickly.  I'm sure that many of the actions that Pope Francis does he does not mean for the public to see, but then you've have the media showing him doing it and commenting on it exhaustively.
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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2013, 12:45:02 AM »

Its gotta be tough to be truly humble as Pope because everything you do gets reported and analyzed with tons of people commenting on how humble you are.  If people were constantly telling me how humble I was, I'm pretty sure that would go to my head quickly.  I'm sure that many of the actions that Pope Francis does he does not mean for the public to see, but then you've have the media showing him doing it and commenting on it exhaustively.

Indeed. Lord have mercy on Pope Francis!
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2013, 01:02:51 AM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

He emphatically did not say atheists are going to heaven. Not even close.
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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2013, 10:25:26 AM »

For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue

The whole thing is much ado about nothing in my view. 
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 01:14:18 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/

Gee, it he were only Orthodox, but then again he wouldn't be pope.....
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 01:42:40 PM »

My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.

Also, I'd like to see less Carnival and party masses and, if not traditional ones, at least more truly liturgical forms of Novus Ordo Missae. Recently, a priest was excomunicated here in Brazil for defending open "marriage", homossexual "marriage" and other aberrations. I think it's a great sign. All those are true steps toward union.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/brazilian-priest-excommunicated-for-heresy-for-denying-catholic-teaching-on/

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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »

Also, I'd like to see less Carnival and party masses and, if not traditional ones, at least more truly liturgical forms of Novus Ordo Missae.

I guess you don't know much about Pope Francis, then.
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 06:46:20 PM »

My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.


You may be disappointed, Fabio. Only yesterday I came across a report that the examination for sainthood of an RC cleric (his name escapes me) who proclaimed liberation theology which had been suspended during the time of Pope Benedict has now resumed.
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 06:56:58 PM »

My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.


You may be disappointed, Fabio. Only yesterday I came across a report that the examination for sainthood of an RC cleric (his name escapes me) who proclaimed liberation theology which had been suspended during the time of Pope Benedict has now resumed.
One more reason to like this pope. Probably trying to make up for less than ideal behaviour during Videla's dictatorship.
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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2013, 08:47:20 PM »

For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue.

This was my immediate interpretation as well.
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2013, 10:58:42 PM »

For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue.

This was my immediate interpretation as well.

Let us hope that we are correct in our understanding then.

God bless,
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« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2013, 11:09:18 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
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« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2013, 11:35:55 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.
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« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2013, 11:39:26 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

I want a cigar.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2013, 12:44:19 AM »

Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2013, 01:02:11 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2013, 03:11:59 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2013, 04:30:48 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2013, 07:07:54 AM »

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.
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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2013, 09:23:12 AM »

I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?
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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2013, 09:53:12 AM »

I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


Sometimes the pope should think before he opens his mouth....this removes a lot of controversy.
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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2013, 10:00:41 AM »

I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


Sometimes the pope should think before he opens his mouth....this removes a lot of controversy.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with what Dpaula posted.  Huh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2013, 10:25:43 AM »

I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


A question I have been pondering too. At first coming to this website I had harboured a suspicion that for some their faith might be likened to the Tea Party at Prayer. How foolish of me, more a case of the Humanist Society scoffing at what they in their conceit hold to be so. Or those whose agenda whether open or covert is to promote Marxist ideology. In any case while we reportedly have free speech in the Western World, this is not the place for such. There are other forums where I am sure they would be welcome.

Makes me recall a Jesuit scholar rebuking a student, don't confuse your cap size with your IQ.
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

We're Orthodox, he's Heterodox.  What he says about much should matter little.
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« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2013, 10:35:58 AM »

I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


What are you talking about?

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« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2013, 10:41:59 AM »

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.


such things don't matter was referring to caring about words.

I am not sure what Christian heaven is. Most Christians would do well start to rid themselves of the word for a while. Romaios, you might be able to use such language and not carry the baggage it often does.

There is an age that has come is here and is coming. You know this. People start going on about heave and you get weird notions of disembodied "spiritual worlds" and radical discontinuity with creation as  it was and is.

You end up with what seems to me to be a Christianized Islamic notion of Paradise (to the degree I understand Islam).
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« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2013, 10:43:57 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.
I mean how can you guys call yourself Orthodox if you don't believe and trust in what Orthodoxy teaches.
You guys are pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-atheists going to the pie in the sky...I just don't get it.
All you do is criticize Orthodox people for their beliefs, mock everyone who doesn't see it the way you guys see it and make fun of the Orthodox Church itself.
I just don't see anything "orthodox" in you.
But you claim your faith  is "Orthodox"....please!


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« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2013, 11:01:02 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.

You certainly didn't understand Romaios. Whose American usage is clearer than mine although it is his 6th language or something.

And certainly didn't understand me.

You would do well to read more of what people write before judging them.

Me, I could see having a problem with, but Romaios, is like walking polyglot encyclopedia of lotsa stuff, one of which is Orthodox.

There are more than a few of those around here. Thankfully, they won't care much what people say about them, cause in addition to knowing stuff they are good Christians as well.

And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.
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« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

While you were jerking your knee, this happened:

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.


such things don't matter was referring to caring about words.

I am not sure what Christian heaven is. Most Christians would do well start to rid themselves of the word for a while. Romaios, you might be able to use such language and not carry the baggage it often does.

There is an age that has come is here and is coming. You know this. People start going on about heave and you get weird notions of disembodied "spiritual worlds" and radical discontinuity with creation as  it was and is.

You end up with what seems to me to be a Christianized Islamic notion of Paradise (to the degree I understand Islam).

Do you see my point at all?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:02:21 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2013, 11:24:02 AM »

Their contributions are like soured milk, fit only to be discarded.

But their pathology is such that it is fruitless to to debate with them. Indeed I have now come across one Islamic scholar who could teach them how to have a scholarly debate without the pretensions, exaggerated sense of superiority and scepticism too often exhibited here. Whether or not you agree.

I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

As a child life in the playground experience taught me early which children you might play with or disagree with without risking harm and which ones never to be alone with. Sadly the latter even when grown up sometimes do not grow out of this mindset. And then give them the possibilities and anonymity of the Internet, their pseudo courage knows no bounds. Add into that a confusion in their minds between cap size and IQ, and the challenges multiply.

Ignore them. And in my clinical experience the problem will get worse before it gets better, but if you stick with the strategy things will change.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:25:18 AM by Santagranddad » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2013, 11:25:13 AM »

Quote from: orthonorm
And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.

Hey, I'm no better than anybody here, nor do I have more faith, just because in my posts I seem committed to what our Church teaches. That's what I choose and want to believe, but I struggle often enough with unbelief, frustration, vain glory and all the heap of human misery.

I'm sorry that what I posted here triggered a fratricidal bashing campaign. I threw the bad seed...      
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« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2013, 11:28:43 AM »

Quote from: orthonorm
And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.

Hey, I'm no better than anybody here, nor do I have more faith, just because in my posts I seem committed to what our Church teaches. That's what I choose and want to believe, but I struggle often enough with unbelief, frustration, vain glory and all the heap of human misery.

I'm sorry that what I posted here triggered a fratricidal bashing campaign. I threw the bad seed...      

Just what the sorta person I described would say.
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« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2013, 11:35:06 AM »

Ignore them. And in my clinical experience the problem will get worse before it gets better, but if you stick with the strategy things will change.

I think you are diagnosing the wrong folks.

Since there is nearly zero reward in anything I do, there is no reason to alter much of what I do based on the reaction of nearly anyone.

Now, those who seem keen to enjoy getting upset and responding like yourself and others, might find a peak in frustration as they realize responding with low content posts which increasing become merely attacks on my person have no punishing nor rewarding effect on my behavior, and thus must refrain from posting when and what they wish they could.

In my experience, the frustration does get much worse, but the good news is that is practically disappears once you get the worst of it.

Best of luck. Really, not being bothered by me is small milestone on a long road to health.
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« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2013, 11:54:51 AM »

I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

For what its worth, this is a pretty decent commentary on the situation vis-a-vie Pope Francis. 

http://jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html


Occasionally, I have some differences with Akin on his interpretation of things, but he seems to be pretty much on the mark this time around. 
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« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2013, 12:03:53 PM »

I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

For what its worth, this is a pretty decent commentary on the situation vis-a-vie Pope Francis. 

http://jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html


Occasionally, I have some differences with Akin on his interpretation of things, but he seems to be pretty much on the mark this time around. 

I fail to see any of the problems with the remarks here.

Pretty traditional stuff. He just has a good brand as the soulless would say.
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« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2013, 01:30:32 PM »

Calm down folks. The jab was directed at what I wrote about the church tax. yawn
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« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2013, 01:40:26 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/

Gee, it he were only Orthodox, but then again he wouldn't be pope.....
what....
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« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.
I mean how can you guys call yourself Orthodox if you don't believe and trust in what Orthodoxy teaches.
You guys are pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-atheists going to the pie in the sky...I just don't get it.
All you do is criticize Orthodox people for their beliefs, mock everyone who doesn't see it the way you guys see it and make fun of the Orthodox Church itself.
I just don't see anything "orthodox" in you.
But you claim your faith  is "Orthodox"....please!



Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever. but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.
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« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2013, 02:29:19 PM »

Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever.

I'll add "Loxias" to my coat of arms!

I'd be glad to learn that my description wasn't accurate.

but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.

"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."
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« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2013, 02:33:22 PM »

"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."

Hey, welcome to crazy land:

Quote
How does salt lose its saltiness?

. . . .

The first question that must be addressed is this. What is the chemical composition of the salt? Is it table salt, NaCl? For the sake of this argument, we’ll assume that Jesus is speaking of table salt.

http://deneenwhite.com/2007/01/06/how-does-salt-lose-its-saltiness/

Enjoy!
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« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2013, 02:50:32 PM »

Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever.

I'll add "Loxias" to my coat of arms!

I'd be glad to learn that my description wasn't accurate.

but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.

"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."
Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God'
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« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2013, 02:59:57 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

The new Pope is quite ecumenical. He says Jews have a special place and is fuzzy about converting them

The  whole doctrine of no salvation outside the Catholic Church is sooo last week.

If you read his enthronement homily it is all flowers and good feelings. He is really very soft on actual Christianity from what I can see so far.

Counting down to when he kisses a Koran.
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« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2013, 03:05:17 PM »

Orthonorm is great. Even if he slightly hates me. Most of the things you'd think about him aren't actually true if you pay careful attention to his posts.
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« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2013, 03:06:31 PM »

Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God'

Again he said unto me: "Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them: O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live."
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« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2013, 04:10:43 PM »

Yes, the mocking continues and now extends to S Matthew 5, 13. See also Leviticus 2, 13.

Let us be clear what is happening here, we have a poster mocking part of Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount. The words of the God man, Jesus Christ, and this on an Orthodox Christian website! This is intolerable and I ask the Moderators to step in.

This cannot stand.

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« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2013, 04:32:18 PM »

nvm
 i'm taking it to random postings
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« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2013, 04:55:46 PM »

This article is just another example of the press misrepresenting what the Pope actually says/does. I have yet to hear the Pope say that "atheists are going to heaven."
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« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2013, 06:57:59 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.

The concept of Stewardship hasn't made it to the Romanians.   Sad
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« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2013, 07:06:07 PM »

I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

The new Pope is quite ecumenical. He says Jews have a special place and is fuzzy about converting them. Counting down to when he kisses a Koran.
FYI you are talking more about interfaith, rather than "Ecumenism", which is between Christians.
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2013, 08:22:27 PM »

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   Huh

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.

The concept of Stewardship hasn't made it to the Romanians.   Sad

I can confirm that it did not.
Hopefully, in time, things will change and they will begin to realize that it is not a "tax" they're paying.
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2013, 09:40:47 PM »

Hehe you guys aren't in the cool Orthonorm click like me until you've had audio chats with him on lazy summer nights  Cool
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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2013, 10:12:09 PM »

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  Grin
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« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  Grin

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.
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« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2013, 10:06:58 AM »

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) Shocked
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« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2013, 11:18:43 PM »

In related news, Pope Francis went to bathroom today and no one can confirm that he washed his hands.

You heard it first, folks! The Vatican is a den of filth!
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« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2013, 06:48:06 AM »

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) Shocked

I cannot make any informed comment in response to the question, "what DO they teach them in these schools?", as regards North America.

In considering the question in a UK context the answer might be multi-faith studies, with children having little exposure to Holy Scripture (New or Old Testament). This has repercussions when exposing them to literature because they are thrown by expressions drawn from Scripture that would have been familiar to preceding generations.

Only talking this week to teachers at primary and secondary a further problem arises. An attitude on the part of students of, "Ownership, and not wanting to or outright refusal to work on anything they deem boring", according to one and echoed by others. Low levels of literacy too don't appear to help. This last point has been repeated by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) and the Institute of Drectors (IoD).

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« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2013, 09:50:40 PM »

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) Shocked

 Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..
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« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2013, 12:37:06 AM »

Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..

I didn't say "being poor is a replacement for the Church". I quoted the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you think that's just my own "personal beliefs" ... well ... yes, I guess that would be true, since I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ. If that's Communism, then dress me in red and call me Mao. But I don't think it is.
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« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2013, 02:41:25 PM »

Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..

I didn't say "being poor is a replacement for the Church". I quoted the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you think that's just my own "personal beliefs" ... well ... yes, I guess that would be true, since I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ. If that's Communism, then dress me in red and call me Mao. But I don't think it is.

Slow down.. You've missed the question..

Somehow..You have tied Ecumenism with helping the poor. You need to explain your logic.
Are you really saying that you can be saved by works alone.. ??

For example, if someone is out side the Faith but helps the poor and needy, that is good enough?  Therefore we should be Ecumenical since helping the poor is the Prime Directive.. so to speak???

That would be a very innovative interpretation of Scripture and not something taught by the Church either Catholic or Orthodox, so help me out here and explain your thinking..

Thanks
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« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2013, 03:32:55 PM »

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) Shocked

I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.
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« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2013, 07:16:01 PM »

I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.

What I'm talking about is the idea that one absolutely MUST be a member of the visible Church in order to be saved. The Catholic Church (and most of the non-Internet Orthodox I've met) says that while it's extraordinary, it is possible to be a member of the Church without realizing it.

And whenever Jesus was asked "who would be saved?" He responded with stories like this one, or the parable of the Good Samaritan. (Samaritans definitely being "heretics" in the eyes of the Jews, btw.) It does not seem to me, reading the words of Christ Himself, that He was overly concerned about His followers belonging to the "right" Church, but more about how their belief made them ACT towards others.

This is not the "social Gospel" - it IS The Gospel!
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« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2013, 07:30:51 PM »

Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.
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« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2013, 07:56:08 PM »

Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.

Sorry, but who are you talking about?  Huh

If it's Jesus, He WAS God.

If it's the Pope, neither he - nor ANY Catholic - thinks the Pope is God.
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« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2013, 07:56:48 PM »

Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.

Not clever, not funny because it's not true. Those of us who are Orthodox have plenty of legitimate issues with the Papacy, but you can't win a debate with such a patently false premise. Neither papal supremacy, papal infallibility , the title of "Vicar of Christ" or any other assertion, even those of the most rabid, sedevactantivist-minded ultramontanist claim the Pope to "be" God.

Besides, the man did not preach universal salvation, he spoke of redemption. Fallen mankind is redeemed through Christ's crucifixion but not all shall be saved. And Orthodoxy does NOT preclude salvation outside of the Church, it teaches a, for lack of a better term, a grudging "agnosticism" regarding that premise for with God, ALL things are possible.
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« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html
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« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2013, 10:16:49 PM »

I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.

What I'm talking about is the idea that one absolutely MUST be a member of the visible Church in order to be saved. The Catholic Church (and most of the non-Internet Orthodox I've met) says that while it's extraordinary, it is possible to be a member of the Church without realizing it.

And whenever Jesus was asked "who would be saved?" He responded with stories like this one, or the parable of the Good Samaritan. (Samaritans definitely being "heretics" in the eyes of the Jews, btw.) It does not seem to me, reading the words of Christ Himself, that He was overly concerned about His followers belonging to the "right" Church, but more about how their belief made them ACT towards others.

This is not the "social Gospel" - it IS The Gospel!

Then let's discuss the doctrine of "There is no salvation outside the ( Catholic/Orthodox) Church"..This idea is often miss understood IMHO.

In the first place, God can save whomever he saves. With that said, he has also made it clear through his Church that there is no salvation outside of it. So what exactly does that mean?

People absolutely cant be saved.. BY... other faiths. If you are a Buddhist, even though you do virtuous acts and a really great person, you are not saved by Buddhism. If God saves you, it is by and through his Church. Sometimes we dont exactly understand how that happens, but we are not supposed to. We are to convert people and actively bring them to Baptism and Faith within the Church. How and when God uses his Church past our normal experience is way above our pay grade.

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran or says Jews don't have to convert, he is saying that they can be saved.. BY.. Islam or Judaism. That reveals him to be at odds with Church teachings.. I will refrain from characterizing him further, but the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church is Orthodox and there for a reason and should not be ignored lightly.

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« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2013, 10:40:15 PM »

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2013, 10:45:01 PM »

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  Roll Eyes

As long as it's not to bow to a Koran...  Tongue
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« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2013, 11:20:11 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2013, 04:27:37 AM »

To take issue with this or any other Pope because of what he believes, teaches or actually does is one thing, but to take issue with him on something he doesn't believe, hasn't said or done on the basis of a journalist's 'story' is crazy.
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« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2013, 08:24:37 AM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. Roll Eyes

LOL, so true!
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« Reply #120 on: May 29, 2013, 01:14:31 PM »

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  Roll Eyes

I understand.. To me it speaks to the issue. If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way so if you want you can let me know what the alternative interpretations  are.  If not, that's fine.
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« Reply #121 on: May 29, 2013, 09:41:06 PM »

I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  Tongue
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« Reply #122 on: May 29, 2013, 10:06:22 PM »

I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  Tongue

I think you may have trouble with basic reading comprehension. No one suggested that you venerated a Koran.




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« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2013, 10:08:40 PM »

I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  Tongue

Nice try. We all know you Byzantine Catholics are really just crypto-Islamists trying to convert Western Christians with the "mysticism" of the East.  laugh
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« Reply #124 on: May 29, 2013, 10:48:21 PM »

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  Roll Eyes

I understand.. To me it speaks to the issue. If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way so if you want you can let me know what the alternative interpretations  are.  If not, that's fine.
Pope John Paul II's kissing of the Koran surely seems to have been imprudent, but you are wrong to claim that JP II thought that Islam can save. This is quite evident in all of his writings.
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« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2013, 11:57:40 PM »

If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 
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« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2013, 12:01:42 AM »

If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 
That's a very wise and charitable observation. Much appreciated.
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« Reply #127 on: May 30, 2013, 12:46:26 AM »

I think you may have trouble with basic reading comprehension. No one suggested that you venerated a Koran.

You do know that there are actual human beings reading your posts, right? Not just nameless, faceless, soulless automatons? Because that was a tad rude.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2013, 03:13:55 AM »

I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. Roll Eyes I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.
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« Reply #129 on: May 30, 2013, 03:19:43 AM »

I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. Roll Eyes I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.
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« Reply #130 on: May 30, 2013, 03:29:23 AM »

It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.
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« Reply #131 on: May 30, 2013, 04:07:00 AM »

Quote
but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency.

Nonsense. Have the representatives of other faiths (Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) kissed Bibles out of "diplomatic leniency"?  Tongue
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« Reply #132 on: May 30, 2013, 08:16:41 AM »

I think most people, Catholics included, will agree that kissing the Koran was an imprudent move on PJPII's part.  That does not take away all the good that he did, but I don't think it is extreme to say that he used very poor judgement in that instance.

But hey, who of us have not used very poor judgement at some point in our lives?  Perhaps not in kissing a Koran, but I'm sure is some other aspect of our lives.
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« Reply #133 on: May 30, 2013, 10:02:50 AM »

I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. Roll Eyes I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.
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« Reply #134 on: May 30, 2013, 10:05:35 AM »

It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.
I think it was meant to be a gesture of respect for the Muslims he was greeting but I agree with everyone else ITT that it was imprudent and risks sending the wrong message about a heterodox religion.
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« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2013, 10:13:57 AM »

I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.


After this incident happened, and whenever it was brought up, this was the common explanation offered for the act.  But it's insufficient, IMO.  First of all, was it a habit of his to kiss gifts given to him by diplomats, religious leaders, and other high level delegations?  When the Patriarch of Antioch visited Rome with some Indian bishops, and the latter gifted JPII with some native handicrafts, did he kiss them?  No photos were leaked of a Pope kissing miniature boats and elephants.  Smiley 

More than that, though, he's the Pope.  As Pope, he's the head of the largest Christian body in the world, and so even within Christendom, he's an influential figure, especially back then, when he was Pope for so long that not too many really remembered the last one.  Outside of Christendom, he's the head of the religion, or at least its visible face and spokesman, for all intents and purposes.  He may have to be diplomatic, but there are ways to show that which also do not appear to be idolatry.  No "diplomat" kisses gifts. 

As I said earlier, I think it has more to do with JPII the person.  Whether you want to ascribe some syncretist views to him, or his own understanding of "inter-religious dialogue" and whether diplomatic kissing is acceptable, or JPII as an actor who understood the visual impact of signs and gestures, or whatever, I think it has more to do with the man. 
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« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2013, 12:26:01 PM »

If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?

options:

1. This is evil = No veneration

2. This has no grace = No veneration

3. This has a degree of grace sufficient to be worthy of veneration. Ergo it has at least some power to save = veneration

4. One religion is pretty much as good as the next = veneration

5. I'm nervous and wasnt thinking. I should never have done that. My teachings contradict my actions = veneration

Now lets move on to Pope Francis whose teachings we are just now learning more about. He has strongly implied that other religions have the power to save. He said Jews have a special place and therfore need not covert, for just one example.

Counting down to when he kisses a Koran...   
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« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM »

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-god-redeemed-everyone-not-just-catholics/

Pope Francis: God redeemed everyone, ‘not just Catholics’

...To both atheists and believers, he said that “if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.”

In a passage that may prompt a theological debate about the nature of salvation, the pontiff also declared that God “has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!”

“Even the atheists,” he said to those who might question his assertion. “Everyone!”
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« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2013, 12:42:21 PM »

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  Smiley  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  
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« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2013, 12:50:07 PM »

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  Smiley  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  

Some of the most dedicated people I have ever met to helping the poor were Communists. They were extremely self sacrificing.

We should now look at the philosophy of Pope Francis whose idea's do seem to be at odds with Church Doctrine both Catholic and Orthodox when it comes to salvation.  I have already posted something about it.
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« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2013, 01:35:49 PM »

We should be careful not to idolize "good people".

It is possible to do good outside the Church and apart from Christ: we aren't Calvinists who believe that no objective good can come from human effort. But remember that it's not enough to be "good"; we have to be "perfect". If we starting thinking that other people are so "good" that they can earn heaven just by their deeds, we have begun to make idols out of them. No one is that good. We all fall short, which is why we need Christ, to participate in His perfection and that is how we are saved.
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« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2013, 04:11:23 PM »

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.

I never said it was a good idea, I just said it was most likely the Pope's rationale for kissing the Koran. I don't need to defend his decision, but I would at least like to clarify that he was acting out of ecumenical desire, not some sort of idolatrous urge.

Quote
but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency.

Nonsense. Have the representatives of other faiths (Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) kissed Bibles out of "diplomatic leniency"?  Tongue


I can't answer this question. Google it. My point was that I can understand why he did what he did. Maybe "needed" was too strong a word. I would say that the Pope certainly felt compelled to do what he did, given the state of Christian-Muslim relations and his image as a globe-trotting, ecumenical figure. Again, I don't take issue with people criticizing his actions. I do take issue with people misconstruing them and then turning them into arguments against genuine ecumenism.

Anyway, this is where I bow out as well. I have pretty thin skin and I'm prone to bouts of frustration, and this thread is not helping me one bit. And I'm pretty tired of listening to internet watchdogs hurl insults from their armchairs when there's real work to be done. So, mea culpa, God have mercy on me, and peace out.
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« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »

Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
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« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »

Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
Must be a lot of back doors then.

Except I wouldn't call them doors.
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« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2013, 04:35:41 PM »

Now that I think about it, God plays a big role in politics so I guess you really can't shut up about it.
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« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2013, 04:35:55 PM »

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  Grin

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

It's hard to wink at heresy when you're charged with perpetuating heresies, just in new and creative ways. That said, I think Pope Francis would be more accurate with theology than just about any journalist, except maybe Terry Matingly or someone.
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« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2013, 04:38:38 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

They got two stories out of one event...two stories so far.
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« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2013, 04:39:50 PM »

some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 Roll Eyes
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. Roll Eyes

Huff Post says, "Who's infallible now, Pope Francis?"
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« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2013, 04:41:51 PM »

HuffPost is garbage.

I don't care if it's a media aggregate either.

Their "pieces" are junk. I dont care what's going on in the news, but I like to read good pieces instead.

The people commenting are nauseating just like YouTube comments.
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« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2013, 04:47:57 PM »

Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
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« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2013, 04:49:29 PM »

Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
Yo if you are gonna quote me make sure you put my name in there for credit.

And date it to.

My life on here is one big timeline that immediately sloped down into a black sinking whole of nothingness.
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« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2013, 06:05:58 PM »

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's okay, I had the same reaction reading your inane defense of the pope venerating the book which condemns all those who believe in the Life-Creating Trinity as blasphemers.

It's very convenient of you to limit idolatry to premodern paganism. I'm sure if the pope went prostrate before a statue of Ganesh you'd be the first to say Hinduism is not idolatrous because deep down they believe in a kind of modalistic monotheism.
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« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2013, 06:29:50 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master, I would be the first in line to defend him from you bigotted, anti-ecumenical purists. I fully embrace modalism and the One World Religion promised to us by Our Great and Supreme Pontiff, the pope, aka the Anti-Christ. I am completely insincere in all my arguments, but you, with your infallible logic and Orthodox purity, have defeated me. I will now crawl back into the ninth circle of hell, where my Supreme Master Satan will continue to teach me ways to subtly undermine the purity of your "precious" Orthodox Church. Hopefully, you won't be able to catch me next time, otherwise, I'll be done for for sure!

Mwa ha ha. ha. ha. Haaaaaaaaaa.. ugh.
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« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2013, 06:38:43 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     
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« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2013, 06:50:31 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy
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« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2013, 06:52:22 PM »

Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     

Oh yes, in addition to be a filthy idolater, I am also a card-carrying member of the KKK. At 5'3", you're also correct that I'm a horrible little person. Also, I smell bad. Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!

And for what it's worth, Ganesh is also portrayed with darker skin tones. See Arachne's post. And yeah, I know this because I literally have his images posted on every square inch of my apartment, aka The Den of Satanic Ecumenism.
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« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2013, 06:58:12 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...
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« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2013, 06:59:11 PM »

Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  Tongue
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« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2013, 07:01:59 PM »

Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  Tongue

Oh, my mistake. I definitely shouldn't have called you an Orthodox Christian then. Really, more of humanity-denying spirit-Messiah-worshipper. Welcome, brother!
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« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2013, 06:08:13 PM »

Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black and blue! Cheesy

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...

Dunno, mine was always of the bluish kind, and quite happy to be so... Tongue
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« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2013, 03:25:02 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand
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« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2013, 03:26:47 AM »

About the pope, at first I thought this would be the last pope we will have after hearing this...

but I looked more into what he said, and he was not saying atheists are going to heaven. He said anyone can do good works which are pleasing to God, even if they are by a non believer.

I do not know if this is correct theology or anything, but I cannot see it meaning "an atheist which does good work will go to heaven"...
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« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2013, 09:14:32 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.
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« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2013, 09:58:54 AM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?
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« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
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« Reply #165 on: June 07, 2013, 05:25:09 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Sure, I get what you're saying as well. I think it's this: people might THINK they're worshipping a totally different god (or gods).

But only the One True God knows what's in their hearts and what their real intentions are, so only He knows whether they would worship Him, if they really knew Him.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ."
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« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  Shocked 

I need to go to the eye doctor.
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« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2013, 05:46:33 PM »

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  Shocked 

I need to go to the eye doctor.

 laugh  laugh  laugh
My sympathies, but that is really funny!  Grin
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« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.
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« Reply #169 on: June 08, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.
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« Reply #170 on: June 08, 2013, 08:50:00 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.
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« Reply #171 on: June 08, 2013, 09:32:15 PM »

Quotes from "What about the Non-Orthodox, by Fr. David Tillman, page 4 Concilliar Press.

"It must be remembered that it is Jesus Christ alone that judges who is or is not saved. The Bible teaches that not all those in the Church will be saved, but some who are never visibly in the Church are nevertheless near and dear to the Lord.  Jesus is the exclusive Judge of all.  On the last and great day, all human beings who have ever lived will be brought before the Lord for the final Judgement. "

Page 11: "We are simply not given all the facts regarding the mystery of even our own salvation, much less anyone else's.  On one level, we are only given those facts that we need to know in order to be saved,  And , yes, we are only saved in the Church. "
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« Reply #172 on: June 09, 2013, 04:02:17 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   Smiley

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...
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« Reply #173 on: June 09, 2013, 05:32:03 PM »

I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  Wink ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   Smiley

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...

"do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church?"
The simple answer is No.  Be Christ like, and pray that you may be granted Great Mercy!
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« Reply #174 on: June 09, 2013, 05:38:42 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       
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« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2013, 05:51:27 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
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« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2013, 06:05:08 PM »

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
that is how i have understood it also.
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« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2013, 09:44:06 PM »



Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....
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« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2013, 06:26:16 PM »



Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....

Although this is even a debatable point.  St. John of Damascus lists them as heretics, not as heathen.  This means that they worship and view the true God in a wrong manner, not a different god.  But then again others have argued differently with some good points. 
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« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2013, 01:35:09 PM »

Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
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« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2013, 01:45:44 PM »

Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
I believe it was stated somewhere that one of his reasons for doing so was the already widespread veneration of St. Peter Faber S.J.

on another note as the product of Jesuit education I'm glad to see this happen I have to agree with HH Francis that Peter Faber is my favorite Jesuit
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« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2013, 02:35:40 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
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« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2013, 02:38:42 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?
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« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2013, 02:40:11 PM »

Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty Wink) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  Cheesy.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
And doesn't the word "God" also come from a pagan deity also?
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« Reply #184 on: December 17, 2013, 02:53:42 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.
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« Reply #185 on: December 17, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

St. Henry VIII?? Grin Grin
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« Reply #186 on: December 17, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.
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« Reply #187 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:05 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8
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« Reply #188 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:55 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
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« Reply #189 on: December 17, 2013, 03:28:04 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Haven't heard that. Could be true, I just didn't know before.
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« Reply #190 on: December 17, 2013, 03:29:45 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
I believe so, I can't find the article I read it in right at the moment but I'll keep digging
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« Reply #191 on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:15 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction
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« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
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« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2013, 05:01:42 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
It was never really in effect.
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« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2013, 05:15:04 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).
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« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2013, 05:36:06 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies while not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
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« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2013, 05:36:59 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2013, 05:41:56 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?
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« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2013, 05:42:31 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

Thank you
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« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?
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« Reply #200 on: December 17, 2013, 05:55:42 PM »

Personally, I think the Vatican's teaching on ex cathedra statements exists to allow doctrine to be changed, rather than to solidify things. The reliance upon ex cathedra statements allows statements that do not fit the criteria to be disregarded, even if they represent a consistent teaching of the Church in the past. You can cast doubt on whatever is convenient in order to push an innovative view. I think the issue with who is considered in or out of the Church is relevant here. And since there's no consensus on which statements are actually ex cathedra, besides a small number of exceptions, doctrine becomes amorphous, and you end up with the current situation where there is apparently no objective quality to the faith other than what the current magisterium says is "tradition."
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« Reply #201 on: December 17, 2013, 06:02:01 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
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« Reply #202 on: December 17, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »

He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
There are requirements and I've posted them on here before. However one more important thing is for its to be true. The fact is that all salvation comes through the Catholic Church. None is found outside it. God's mercy is infinite and man may not know the depths to whom Gods mercy extends. As such we cannot limit communion to mere physical and visible communion. As such , and what the CCC tries to point out, spiritual communion is a reality because of this and as such Pope Eugenes statement is still in line with the CCC as his pronouncement is speaking of a people assumed to not be in any sort of communion with the church. extra ecclessium nulla salus
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« Reply #203 on: December 17, 2013, 07:02:26 PM »

Pope Pius IX, more than 100 years before Pope Paul VI and Vatican II.

Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863
#7 "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

Denzinger #1647 (Pope Pius IX "Singulari quadem", Dec. 9, 1854)
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. ...

Denzinger #1677 (Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863)
"It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church..."

These quotes can be accessed on the following site: http://catecheticsonline.com/?p=184
At least as early as the Arian heresy (300's AD), Baptism outside the Catholic Church has been recognized as valid as long as it has been done in the form of the Church --
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 07:08:25 PM by Wandile » Logged

"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes." - St. Louis Marie de Montfort

"When we pray, the voice of the heart must be heard more than that proceeding from the mouth." - St Bonaventure.
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