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Author Topic: Survey of Roman Catholic priests regarding the new Roman Missal  (Read 659 times) Average Rating: 0
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xariskai
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« on: May 22, 2013, 01:13:44 PM »

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This survey shows fairly widespread skepticism about the new Missal by U.S. Catholic priests, with strong differences in opinion between the majority of priests who do not like the Missal and the minority who do. Among the principal findings of this survey:

    By a 3 to 2 margin, priests do not like the new text - 59% do not like it, compared to 39% who do.
    By a similar margin, 57% to 36%, priests do not like the more formal style of language, with over one-third (35%) strongly disliking the new language.
    Similarly, only 35% of priests think that the new translation is an improvement on the old one, against 56% who do not think it is an improvement. Over one- third of priests (34%) strongly disagree that the new Missal is an improvement.
    Priests overwhelmingly think that some of the language is awkward and distracting - 80% agree with this statement, with nearly three out of five (59%) agreeing strongly with this negative appraisal.
    More than three in five priests (61%) think that the new translation urgently needs to be revised, with 43% strongly agreeing that it urgently needs revision. Only 29% disagree that the new Missal needs revision.
    Similarly, more than three in five priests (61%) do not think work should go forward translating the Liturgy of the Hours and other sacraments in the same style as the new Missal, with 43% strongly disagreeing with this work continuing. Only slightly more than three in ten priests (32%) would like to see translation work continue in the same style.
    Most priests (55%) are not confident that priests' translation views will be taken seriously, with less than one-quarter of priests (24%) confident their views will be taken seriously.
    Nearly half of all priests (49%) do not approve of the Holy See's leadership in bringing about the new Missal, with nearly three in ten priests (29%) strongly disapproving of the Holy See's role. Less than two out of five priests (39%) approve of the Holy See's leadership on the new Missal.

Read more here:
http://www.csbsju.edu/SOT/Programs/Diekmann-Center/New-Roman-Missal-Survey-of-US-Priests.htm
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 01:14:20 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 01:27:31 PM »

If they would have broken it down by age, I would bet money that it is skewed heavily with priests 55 and older who dislike it and 45 or younger who like it.  Furthermore, only certain diocese participated in the survey, which to me suggests that certain bishops allowed it and certain bishops did not.  Agenda on the part of those bishops?  I cannot say, but it would not shock me at all.  Most surveys suggest that the laity who actually attend Mass on a weekly basis prefer the new translation by a fairly wide margin.  In another year, this is a complete non-issue. 

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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 01:52:23 PM »

Furthermore, only certain diocese participated in the survey, which to me suggests that certain bishops allowed it and certain bishops did not.  Agenda on the part of those bishops?  I cannot say, but it would not shock me at all. 
"The 32 participating dioceses are from all parts of the country and 12 of 14 Latin rite ecclesiastical regions of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. States represented by participating dioceses are: CA, CO, FL, GA, IA, IL, KS, LA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NJ, NY, OH, TN, TX, WA, WI."
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 02:01:12 PM »

Furthermore, only certain diocese participated in the survey, which to me suggests that certain bishops allowed it and certain bishops did not.  Agenda on the part of those bishops?  I cannot say, but it would not shock me at all.
"The 32 participating dioceses are from all parts of the country and 12 of 14 Latin rite ecclesiastical regions of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. States represented by participating dioceses are: CA, CO, FL, GA, IA, IL, KS, LA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NJ, NY, OH, TN, TX, WA, WI."

Yes, and there are 195 diocese which means that only around 16% of them are represented.  Its hard to take it seriously when almost 84% of the diocese in the country did not have a single respondent. Furthermore, unlike surveys which use representative sampling to predict the opinions of larger populations, this survey did not do that.  It did not target based upon demographics represented in the priesthood, etc.  All in all, interesting, but not particularly meaningful.  
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 02:01:57 PM »

If they would have broken it down by age, I would bet money that it is skewed heavily with priests 55 and older who dislike it and 45 or younger who like it.  Furthermore, only certain diocese participated in the survey, which to me suggests that certain bishops allowed it and certain bishops did not.  Agenda on the part of those bishops?  I cannot say, but it would not shock me at all.  Most surveys suggest that the laity who actually attend Mass on a weekly basis prefer the new translation by a fairly wide margin.  In another year, this is a complete non-issue. 


Spot on. And I am one of those under 50 that certainly do enjoy the new translation which follows more literally.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 03:04:59 PM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 03:23:58 PM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.

I agree. If Catholics really want reunion with the Orthodox, then they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 03:43:57 PM »

they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

+1

It always makes me laugh if I hear/read traditional Roman Catholics statements about the antiquity and eternity of the Tridentine Mass. It's not so old, and what's more, they even do not know which rubrics they should follow (e.g there were some reforms of the ceremonies of the Holy Week before Vaticanum Secundum, some reforms of previous popes e.g Leo XIII if I'm not mistaken and so on).
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »

If they would have broken it down by age, I would bet money that it is skewed heavily with priests 55 and older who dislike it and 45 or younger who like it.  Furthermore, only certain diocese participated in the survey, which to me suggests that certain bishops allowed it and certain bishops did not.  Agenda on the part of those bishops?  I cannot say, but it would not shock me at all.  Most surveys suggest that the laity who actually attend Mass on a weekly basis prefer the new translation by a fairly wide margin.  In another year, this is a complete non-issue. 


Spot on. And I am one of those under 50 that certainly do enjoy the new translation which follows more literally.

What are the main objections to this new Missal? 
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 04:10:03 PM »

The language is not simple enough.
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 05:08:58 PM »

The language is not simple enough.

True, it is no longer at the level of a 2nd grader preparing to receive First Holy Communion.
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 05:19:54 PM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.

I agree. If Catholics really want reunion with the Orthodox, then they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

I would be just fine with that.  However, it isn't going to happen.  So, steps need to be taken which actually have a chance of being accomplished. 
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 07:04:06 PM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.

I agree. If Catholics really want reunion with the Orthodox, then they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

I would be just fine with that.  However, it isn't going to happen.  So, steps need to be taken which actually have a chance of being accomplished. 

Yes, I took steps. I left Roman Catholicism and joined the Holy Orthodox Church. If enough Roman Catholics left and joined the Orthodox Church, do you think Rome might get a hint?
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 07:35:41 PM »

I agree that this is probably a useless survey with which to make any solid conclusions, and if it is the dying gasps of liberal Roman Catholicism, then good.  It doesn't work.  That said...

Most surveys suggest that the laity who actually attend Mass on a weekly basis prefer the new translation by a fairly wide margin.  In another year, this is a complete non-issue. 

While I agree that the new Mass texts are more accurate translations of the Latin than the former ICEL text, the new texts often sound like awkward English.  I'm sure that translating Latin presents its own difficulties, but the prayers often sound like the translators were trying to keep as closely as possible to the Latin word order rather than rendering the exact meaning of the Latin into good English--it's almost an "anti-ICEL".  I haven't heard it "live", but whenever I hear it on TV, I'm struck by how artificial it sounds, and how much difficulty English-speaking priests seem to have with it, even though they've been praying with the new Missal for a year or two in what is their native language.   
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 09:33:32 PM »

I agree that this is probably a useless survey with which to make any solid conclusions, and if it is the dying gasps of liberal Roman Catholicism, then good.  It doesn't work.  That said...

Most surveys suggest that the laity who actually attend Mass on a weekly basis prefer the new translation by a fairly wide margin.  In another year, this is a complete non-issue. 

While I agree that the new Mass texts are more accurate translations of the Latin than the former ICEL text, the new texts often sound like awkward English.  I'm sure that translating Latin presents its own difficulties, but the prayers often sound like the translators were trying to keep as closely as possible to the Latin word order rather than rendering the exact meaning of the Latin into good English--it's almost an "anti-ICEL".  I haven't heard it "live", but whenever I hear it on TV, I'm struck by how artificial it sounds, and how much difficulty English-speaking priests seem to have with it, even though they've been praying with the new Missal for a year or two in what is their native language.   

I felt that way at first, but am now very comfortable with it.  In fact, I have noticed my own personal prayer taking on some of the same patterns of speech as is used in the new translation of the Mass.  Our priest, who is from India, seems to have no problem with the language at all, and in other parishes I have been to, or when I visit the monastery, I have not noticed any awkwardness. 

But, the old joke about ICEL is that half speak Latin and not English, and the other half speak English, but not Latin.  My understanding however is that much of this was actually taken out of their hands due to past experiences.  I could be wrong on that however.
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 09:37:59 PM »

The language is not simple enough.

True, it is no longer at the level of a 2nd grader preparing to receive First Holy Communion.
+1

Of course, if Rome would just mandate the Latin  (as they should), this wouldn't even be an issue.
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 09:42:43 PM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.

I agree. If Catholics really want reunion with the Orthodox, then they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

I would be just fine with that.  However, it isn't going to happen.  So, steps need to be taken which actually have a chance of being accomplished. 

Yes, I took steps. I left Roman Catholicism and joined the Holy Orthodox Church. If enough Roman Catholics left and joined the Orthodox Church, do you think Rome might get a hint?

I don't believe that will ever happen in large enough numbers to cause anyone to stand up and take notice.  The Latin Church is going to see some stark numbers dropping in the next 20 years as the baby boomer generation starts to pass away, and the fruits of young families not staying in the Church become more apparent then they are today.  Many of these parishes which horrible liturgy or modernist teachings are simply going to die out.  Catholics who are traditional are seeking out parishes where the liturgy is respected for what it is, and those parishes are growing rapidly since those families are the ones who actually donate money and who are actually having children.  They have been working to make their parishes better for a long time with only little reward and have become frustrated and finally decided to leave.  

I am in a similar situation.  We have solid and orthodox Catholic teaching, but the music at Mass is horrific on most days.  We went to evening Mass tonight and the first song was borderline heretical.  The priest takes his part of the liturgy seriously and celebrates with great reverence.  However, all of the choirs are very modernist in their approach and the priest does not feel that he can push for the use of the Propers, chant, etc. without pissing half of the parish off and all of the choirs at the same time.  He is in a tough spot so while I am greatly bothered by it, I can hardly blame him.  As a result, if a job opportunity opens up in a place with more traditional parishes and a bishop who is the same, we will likely try to make the move if we can.  I did consider Orthodoxy for a time as we have a Western Rite parish as well as a Greek Orthodox parish in town, but there are too many things that I cannot get passed.  
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 09:48:51 PM »

they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

+1

It always makes me laugh if I hear/read traditional Roman Catholics statements about the antiquity and eternity of the Tridentine Mass. It's not so old, and what's more, they even do not know which rubrics they should follow (e.g there were some reforms of the ceremonies of the Holy Week before Vaticanum Secundum, some reforms of previous popes e.g Leo XIII if I'm not mistaken and so on).
Actually, like the Divine Liturgy, the Tridentine Mass also evolved and it represented the rich, organic blend of Gallican, Celtic, Old Latin African, and Roman liturgical nuances that developed in the West for over a millennium. Pope Benedict XVI details this beautifully in his book Spirit of the Liturgy. For some brief comments on the organic 'evolution of the Divine Liturgy to see Taft http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/taft_evolution_1.html

The Novus Ordo actually has much profundity in and of itself, if it is liturgically sound with traditional features such as incense and Latin hymns. The new translation has helped to improve things, too, IMO.

My chief problem with the Novus Ordo is that some of the symbolic gestures and movements from the Latin Mass, as with the Divine Liturgy, which really evoke a sense of reverence and transcendence has been lost.

Benedict XVI, a council father of Vatican II who is overall very positive above the council itself, is very critical of the liturgical document and what he saw as 'papal innovation' when Paul VI handled the matter as he did.

I love both masses personally,'though I do believe that more elements of the Tridenine Mass should bleed into the Novus Ordo and indeed they have in my particular parish. Going to Tridentine Mass this Sunday with the fam though since I have the opportunity :-)
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 11:00:33 PM »



What are the main objections to this new Missal? 
See further here:
http://www.csbsju.edu/SOT/Programs/Diekmann-Center/New-Roman-Missal-Survey-of-US-Priests/Reactions.htm

and here:
http://www.csbsju.edu/SOT/Programs/Diekmann-Center/New-Roman-Missal-Survey-of-US-Priests/Survey-Comments.htm
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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 09:43:28 AM »

Is this the swan song of the RC Liberal movement? Let's hope so.

I agree. If Catholics really want reunion with the Orthodox, then they must come to their senses and stop all this needless reform of the reform of the reform of the reform. Go back to the ancient and timeless Divine Liturgy at the time of St. Gregory.

No need to go that far. There were lots of Orthodox Popes after St. Gregory.
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 10:32:51 AM »

Why not 'dox the Tridentine Mass? Liturgical archeology is silly.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 11:07:21 AM »

Why not 'dox the Tridentine Mass?

It's been already done.

http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/the-divine-liturgy-according-to-the-rite-of-saint-gregory/

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Liturgical archeology is silly.

Not really if it doesn't mean re-inventing the weel. In case of WRO there's no wheel to re-invent since Rome fell off ages ago.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2013, 11:07:54 PM »

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/survey-on-priests-dislike-of-missal-may-be-inaccurate/

The survey performed on Catholic Priests appears to have flawed methodology  --modified by username! section moderator.
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2013, 12:55:14 AM »

Why not 'dox the Tridentine Mass? Liturgical archeology is silly.
Glad to find somebody agrees with me on this.
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