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Author Topic: Why are we separated from God due to Adam and Eve's disobedience?  (Read 587 times) Average Rating: 0
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truthseeker32
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« on: May 22, 2013, 12:20:36 PM »

I am sorry if this topic has been explored before. I did a search for it and didn't find anything.

Christianity teaches that at some point humanity fell. If we accept that this fall was triggered by the two beings Genesis calls Adam and Eve, I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 12:34:42 PM »

I think its time for a Priest to share with us his wisdom on this matter. Though I can think of a lot of things I cant really pick one out, maybe a Priest can give us a divine inspired answer.
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 12:39:48 PM »

Why the children of those who were victims of radiation leaks or explosions get to be genetically impaired even if they are not guilty for atomic explosions?

See, the problem here is that this is not the question that provides the answer we are looking for. That inocent people get to suffer the consequences of the misdeeds of other people is one of the very constituent aspects of evil. Of course it is unjust, that is why we call it evil.

God did warn Adam and Eve not to do it, just like people certainly were asked not to deploy the atomic bombs. Yet, they chose to do it anyway. All the unjustice and evil is in the disobedient act itself, not in God.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:42:27 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 12:53:51 PM »

Why the children of those who were victims of radiation leaks or explosions get to be genetically impaired even if they are not guilty for atomic explosions?

See, the problem here is that this is not the question that provides the answer we are looking for. That inocent people get to suffer the consequences of the misdeeds of other people is one of the very constituent aspects of evil. Of course it is unjust, that is why we call it evil.

God did warn Adam and Eve not to do it, just like people certainly were asked not to deploy the atomic bombs. Yet, they chose to do it anyway. All the unjustice and evil is in the disobedient act itself, not in God.
It is indeed true that human beings would still be subject to other mistreatment due to the choices of other human beings, but why are they also deprived of the relationship Adam and Eve had with God?
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 01:04:50 PM »

I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?

Roman Catholics would say that the guilt of original sin is transmitted through sexual intercourse.

I don't know really. Part of it is because the account has the "mythos" dimension where you and I are Adam.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 01:45:11 PM »

Because they died when they fell.  They no longer had life.  Only the living can give birth to the living.  The dead give birth to the dead. In order to have life, we now must be born again of the Spirit and of Water - taking on a new Parent of Life.
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »

I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?

Roman Catholics would say that the guilt of original sin is transmitted through sexual intercourse.
According to this for the RCC treaching, there is a distinction in Latin between reatus (related to a penalty) and culpa (guilt or fault). Supposedly, in their understanding of original sin, we are born under the penalty but not the fault of original sin, the penalty being death, corruption, etc. However, in English translations of relevant texts from Trent and other places, both words are rendered as "guilt."

I admit simply perusing a blog post isn't the most scholarly way to look into this. Perhaps some of the Catholics here can comment on whether the above blog post is an accurate representation of Catholic teaching. If it is, then I would say there really is no substantial difference between their teaching on original sin and ours.
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 01:57:44 PM »

Adam and Eve broke that relationship. Because we were all born after the direct link to God had already been broken we also didn't have it until Jesus incarnated.

Imagine that a couple live in a warm cozy house. Then, due to disobedience, they burn down the house. It's not their children's fault, but all those who were born after the destruction of the house are simply homeless, until a new house is built.

The old house represents the primitive link to God. The new house is Jesus Christ, and this is one is indestructable.

Why the children of those who were victims of radiation leaks or explosions get to be genetically impaired even if they are not guilty for atomic explosions?

See, the problem here is that this is not the question that provides the answer we are looking for. That inocent people get to suffer the consequences of the misdeeds of other people is one of the very constituent aspects of evil. Of course it is unjust, that is why we call it evil.

God did warn Adam and Eve not to do it, just like people certainly were asked not to deploy the atomic bombs. Yet, they chose to do it anyway. All the unjustice and evil is in the disobedient act itself, not in God.
It is indeed true that human beings would still be subject to other mistreatment due to the choices of other human beings, but why are they also deprived of the relationship Adam and Eve had with God?
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 03:02:57 PM »

I am sorry if this topic has been explored before. I did a search for it and didn't find anything.

Christianity teaches that at some point humanity fell. If we accept that this fall was triggered by the two beings Genesis calls Adam and Eve, I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?

We're not. Its just a theological teaching given to us
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 01:56:35 AM »

Because sin entered the world and sin separates from God. But, the fall is not radical as that of the angels; God did not abandon man and man did not become evil (he only has the opportunity if he actually wants). The fall is the same as tripping over something (the devil's temptation) and falling to the ground -- you have the opportunity to get back up, or can remain in that state (and start crawling Smiley).

The separation from God is something existential; we lost direct communion with Him, that initial Grace, so we fell from the spiritual life (zoe) into the physical life (bios). Yet, He is still with us and He has not abandoned us one bit, but only is temporarily limited in the way He can manifest His presence.  

Why does sin stay so long with us and even gets transmitted and amplified over generations? It is a complex question. For one, the process of repentance is gradual and man can actually continue to commit more sins which further complicates the situation. There is also evil in the world which started with Cain that also slows down things, if not worse. God, for one, does not wish to coerce man and force things because He loves us and love is patient and delicate (satan is the one who tries to force man into choosing him, even though that's what will actually turn people against him).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:57:55 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 02:12:26 AM »

According to this for the RCC treaching, there is a distinction in Latin between reatus (related to a penalty) and culpa (guilt or fault). Supposedly, in their understanding of original sin, we are born under the penalty but not the fault of original sin, the penalty being death, corruption, etc. However, in English translations of relevant texts from Trent and other places, both words are rendered as "guilt."

I admit simply perusing a blog post isn't the most scholarly way to look into this. Perhaps some of the Catholics here can comment on whether the above blog post is an accurate representation of Catholic teaching. If it is, then I would say there really is no substantial difference between their teaching on original sin and ours.

This is something that I've seen Catholics say before as well, so I'd imagine it's true that in this regard it's not really different.

Although I do often get the impression that how the penalty is incurred is viewed differently. It seems often that (through Catholic spiritual literature especially) death/corruption is viewed as a penalty laid upon us as a punishment by God through deprivation of grace. So while we agree that the means of our death/corruption is deprivation of grace, we seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) to disagree on the cause of said deprivation.
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 02:19:19 AM »

I think also it helps if we don't think of each human person being separately created. In actuality, each human person is generated from his parents, i.e. he shares the same nature in its entirety with his parents. God in fact only ever created one human being, Adam, and miraculously generated Eve from Adam. All other humans have been generated from Adam and Eve by a natural process of reproduction, but God has never specially created a new human being. So the human nature that fell with Adam and Eve therefore determined the fall of all subsequent humans.

One could object that our souls are specially created, but in fact the Fathers are not agreed on this; some say that our souls are also inherited from our parents (sorry, I don't have the quotations with me right now, bear with me). What is true is that, mysteriously, each product of this natural process of reproduction is hypostatically unique, with a unique person, body and soul, and with a unique will. The unity of human nature does not contradict the diversity of hypostases, just as the unity of the Divine nature does not contradict the diversity of the Trinity.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 09:59:07 AM »

I don't think we can use ordinary human activity to describe something this spiritual.
The only thing I think I know is that the original sin showed that humans can't be trusted. So like in the Book of Job we have to be tested in this life(And I read one in the first letter of Saint Peter where he wrote 'all this are test...') before we are rewarded in the after life. So maybe the purpose of this life being like this is to test us. About the presence of God I think we already have it in the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps a Priest can tell me if I'm right, I'll really like to know.
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 09:24:46 PM »

If Adam and Eve were allowed to sin, does this mean mankind has free choice or was this preordained to have taken place regardless of man's choice?
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 09:38:14 PM »

I am sorry if this topic has been explored before. I did a search for it and didn't find anything.

Christianity teaches that at some point humanity fell. If we accept that this fall was triggered by the two beings Genesis calls Adam and Eve, I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?

Two scriptural points from Genesis:

1) We are born outside of paradise, unlike Adam and Eve who were created inside paradise.

2) We are born in the image of Adam as he was after the fall.
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 07:43:43 PM »

We are not separated from God , We were sent out of paradise and forced to labor and die. But God never abandoned his creation.
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 10:04:06 PM »

So why when one human couple is disobedient all humans pay the price

But a whole load of angels are disobedient but not all angels pay the price

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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 10:06:54 PM »

So why when one human couple is disobedient all humans pay the price

But a whole load of angels are disobedient but not all angels pay the price



There were only two humans , there were no loyal humans at that time.  Two thirds of the angels did not rebel against God.  No need to punish those to remained loyal.
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 10:08:26 PM »

We are not separated from God , We were sent out of paradise and forced to labor and die. But God never abandoned his creation.

Yes, but our connection to Him was severely constained as a result.  Probably the reason Jesus became flesh.  To regain some of the lost connection.
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 10:10:55 PM »

If Adam and Eve were allowed to sin, does this mean mankind has free choice or was this preordained to have taken place regardless of man's choice?

Free choice.  Because God knows what we will do does not mean He is forcing us to do it.  Because I know my children will do certain specific things in disobedience in no way places the fault of that disobedience into my lap.  They choose and I respond.
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 06:54:50 PM »

We are not separated from God , We were sent out of paradise and forced to labor and die. But God never abandoned his creation.

Yes, but our connection to Him was severely constained as a result.  Probably the reason Jesus became flesh.  To regain some of the lost connection.

Yes, but Jesus also said in the parable about the rich man and Lazarus, that if they did not believe Moses and the Prophets , they also would not believe if someone rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

Meaning himself as he would later do.
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »

I am sorry if this topic has been explored before. I did a search for it and didn't find anything.

Christianity teaches that at some point humanity fell. If we accept that this fall was triggered by the two beings Genesis calls Adam and Eve, I have always wondered why it is necessary that their offspring also must be separated from God. Why isn't every human born into a relationship like Adam and Eve had in the beginning, and given the same opportunity?

Believe as you will but Jesus said that we are all children of God and that our bodies are the temple of God.

That means that he is always within us.

Think as this intelligent person does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

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DL
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