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Author Topic: Has the Catholic Church become anti-Catholic?  (Read 6465 times) Average Rating: 0
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idontlikenames
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« on: January 20, 2005, 09:37:13 AM »

okay....just some questions

Why do I hear so many Catholics who converted to EO say that the RCC has become too Protestant?

I recently attended a Catholic Mass and I only heard one reference to the Holy Virgin (and a vague reference at that).  Why is that?  and why won't Pope John Paul II give out a Papal bull defining St. Mary as co-redemptrix, even though there's been thousands of requests world-wile for that to become a dogma?  (and don't say that it would be innovative because that doctrine has a long tradition--at least in the western Church).  why was there only the vaguest reference to the parish's patron saint (in this case, St. Patrick).  Has the RCC become so ecumenical that they feel they need to be as much Protestant as possible to attract Protestants?

Why has no Pope since 1950 (correct me if I'm wrong) made a statement of a strictly theological nature....they all seemed too concerned with political matters and ecumenicalism.

Has the Catholic Church become anti-Catholic?
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2005, 10:29:43 AM »

Perhaps it would be more profitable to ask these questions at a Roman Catholic forum, or the EWTN Q&A section. 
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2005, 10:41:05 AM »

The Roman Catholic church hasnt changed their beliefs since VatII as far as I know. I would appreciate any corrections to this. It is the externals which you are referring to that seems to denote a radical change from the past. Many newer RC church interior and exterior designs beg the question: Where are they going with this? My experience in some new RC churches is that they look more like religious meeting halls not sanctuaries of God. Why do some churches reserve the Blessed Sacrament in side altars and many not in the church at all is anyones guess.  I think the RC church is trying to appeal to the separated Protestant bretheren and wants the new converts to feel more at home when they do convert? Some of the more conservative RC churches still maintain their ancient architecture and some are extemely beautiful inside. But sadly the newer buildings resemble the minds of modern artistic design. Designs that appeal to the minds of man rather than to the glory of God. There is a book out addressing this very thing. Its title is Ugly As Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces and How We Can Change Them Back Again
by Michael S. Rose

As to the mentioning of the Theotokos at a Tridentine Mass: As a former RC, the mentioning of the Blessed Mother occured during the: Confiteor, Creed, Offetory, The Secret (silent prayers by the priest which may include thanksgivings to the BVM) , Roman Canon, and Breaking of the Host. However, Im not sure how many times the Theotokos is mentioned in the Novus Ordo (New Mass).

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idontlikenames
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2005, 10:45:29 AM »

oops, too late now

anyway....I thought some might take offense to the polemical nature of the topic, ergo I put it here
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2005, 11:28:10 AM »

I attended a Corpus Christi Mass at this parish and we sung Vineyard music while the Holy Eucharist was on the altar.  Vineyard music for crying out loud!!!!
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2005, 11:41:52 AM »

The Virgin is mentioned in the Confiteor, Creed, Preface for Eucharistic Prayer II and other Prefaces for use with Eucharistic Prayers I and III, and in all Eucharistic Prayers. She may be mentioned in the opening prayer, prayer over the gifts, and prayer after communion.
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2005, 11:48:29 AM »

But that's because you're in the Eastern Rite, right?
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2005, 12:09:49 PM »

This is a better question for an RCC forum...but from my studies the teaching of Morals and faith has never changed.

no the Catholic has NOT turned to anti catholic.  I have a background to know there is a big difference.  Well I was raised as a Mormon...and then left the church after 20+ years.  Went to protostant churches.  The only thing I notice is there is some hyms that protostant uses that the RCC uses but if you study the lyrics it is NOT in error.  But that is about it. 

Quote
I recently attended a Catholic Mass and I only heard one reference to the Holy Virgin (and a vague reference at that).  Why is that?

I go to mass every week (sometimes daily depending on my scedule)...there are times I hear of the Holy Virgin more than once.  During Her feast days...well she is mentioned alot.  We love our Mother.  We also love her Son which the Mass is central to Him. 

You may want to ask a RCC preist about this...I wasnt really that concern how many times she is referenced in Mass, because I am too busy praying to her. 


Quote
The Roman Catholic church hasnt changed their beliefs since VatII as far as I know.


you are right.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2005, 12:13:52 PM »

Quote
But that's because you're in the Eastern Rite, right?

No, those are the times that the Virgin Mary is mentioned in the "Novus Ordo" Mass.
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2005, 12:14:47 PM »

moderators: can you switch this to the RCC forums?  I don't know how to do that.

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2005, 12:44:56 PM »

I don’t think the moral teaching has changed, but commenting on the attitudes of the laity post Vatican II, Catholic scholar Luke Timothy Johnson has described American Catholicism as being something approximating the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the country.  I think he probably had in mind things like views on birth control or political affiliation in that particular case.

I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to see that as a corollary to the changes brought about by the Novus Ordo though.  The Novus Ordo I think has seen the stripping down of many of sacred elements of the mass, which has only been followed by other changes such as the use of altar girls or the regular use of “extraordinary” eucharistic ministers.

In Orthodoxy I think one would describe the liturgy as the doctrine of the church put in practice, it is the most tangible element of our shared beliefs.  To me that would highlight the applicability of the quote by Professor Johnson to the mass itself and give weight to the idea of a Protestantization of both the forms of worship and the beliefs of the worshippers themselves.  Many traditional Catholics I’ve talked to try and brush aside what has happened to the mass saying it’s a secondary concern, but to me it is just an indication (albeit a very visible one) of something deeper and quite significant.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2005, 01:02:29 PM »

Here's another thing......at St. Patrick's (I think I'll keep their location anonymous) the only statues they had (other than the Crucifix) were tucked away in some little corner (and they were quite small) as if to say: "Look we're quite embarrased about our heritage so will tuck these away to avoid suffering Protestant persecution."

My parents converted to the RCC and the priest told them that all they had to believe was the Nicene Creed in order to be able to be in Communion with them.  I'm almost certain that this isn't true, otherwise I'd have to believe that the Pope speaks to a brick wall every time he makes an ex cathedra statement. 

Shouldn't they be proud of their heritage?  There are a lot of things in the RCC that I think are quite beautiful, like the Immaculate Conception (I only reject it because of its "Original Sin" implications)
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2005, 01:58:03 PM »

idontlikenames,
Just because something is our sounds beautiful doesn't mean is should become dogma.  So what if a lot of people are clamoring for the Theotokos to be declared co-redemptrix!  That doesn't mean it should be dogma.  The Orthodox Church hasn't declared any new dogma since Hesychia by St. Gregory Palamas (what, around 800 yrs?).  Why is it important for something recent to be declared?  Just because the Pope has ex cathedra power doesn't mean it should be exercised freely and often.  Heck, as an Orthodox Christian, he shouldn't have it at all (among other things)!
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2005, 02:18:06 PM »

Here's another thing......at St. Patrick's (I think I'll keep their location anonymous) the only statues they had (other than the Crucifix) were tucked away in some little corner (and they were quite small) as if to say: "Look we're quite embarrased about our heritage so will tuck these away to avoid suffering Protestant persecution."

My parents converted to the RCC and the priest told them that all they had to believe was the Nicene Creed in order to be able to be in Communion with them. I'm almost certain that this isn't true, otherwise I'd have to believe that the Pope speaks to a brick wall every time he makes an ex cathedra statement.

Shouldn't they be proud of their heritage? There are a lot of things in the RCC that I think are quite beautiful, like the Immaculate Conception (I only reject it because of its "Original Sin" implications)

The RCC parshes are NOT embarrssed of their harriatage...they have statues and pictures....I dont know which one you went to...

I am actually not that fimilarr with the orthodox really (note I am not here to convert I am not here to convert anyone to the RCC I am only here to get an understanding...you know go to the source...well here I am) I only know a few things, but orthodox doesnt believe that Mary was saved from orignal sin?  am I understanding you right?
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2005, 02:24:55 PM »

Quote
I recently attended a Catholic Mass and I only heard one reference to the Holy Virgin (and a vague reference at that). Why is that?

Perhaps I am wrong here, but it has always seemed to me that Catholics tend to venerate Mary more in private devotions, while the Orthodox tend to venerate her more in public devotions. Yes, the Orthodox do tend to mention the Theotokos more in the liturgy, and in very exalted language. But on the other hand, most Orthodox maybe mention the Theotokos in only a few short prayers in their daily prayer rule, while Catholics seem to focus much more on her in their daily prayers.
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 02:27:51 PM »



Perhaps I am wrong here, but it has always seemed to me that Catholics tend to venerate Mary more in private devotions, while the Orthodox tend to venerate her more in public devotions. Yes, the Orthodox do tend to mention the Theotokos more in the liturgy, and in very exalted language. But on the other hand, most Orthodox maybe mention the Theotokos in only a few short prayers in their daily prayer rule, while Catholics seem to focus much more on her in their daily prayers.

This is somewhat true.  There is a service once a week in my parish for people who want to attend for the "OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL HELP"  We get communion during this service as well.

And I am a rosary leader at my church as well...
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 02:34:47 PM »

Tabby,

The Orthodox have a different understanding of original sin than Catholics. To sum up as best I understand it, the Orthodox Church believes that we inherit a tendency to sin (which we call "original sin" just for the sake of convenience), but believe that we do not inherit guilt. The distinction is hard to articulate without going into a bunch of the anthrpological underpinnings; I do realise that it can appear to be logically inconsistent (when I say this, Catholics usually ask something along the lines of, "well if they are born into a sinful world, and they die and so forth, then isn't that a punishment that came as a result of the fall? and if so, don't they have to be guilty of something to be punished?) All I can say at this point is that we do believe that we are all sinners, we do believe that Mary was born into a sinful world, many believe that Mary was sinless, but we do not believe that she was sinless because she was immaculately conceived or something akin to that. I hope I haven't confused things more than helped!
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 02:43:14 PM »

thank you....I know most religions thinks this way...however most religions dont even praise her enough...actually they dont even praise her at all....I believe different about the oringal sin, but that I am NOT going to get into...only because that would totally be against what I am trying to grasp...and that is understanding what orthodox believes...and I thank you so much....

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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 04:33:53 PM »

Clark( Innocent) Carlton states in part of his version of the chatechism of the Orthodox chruch that the Orthodox belief is that we are born sinless into a sinful wordl and it is the world around us that corrupt us.  Anyone can "get rid of the guilt", but it soes not make the sin less corruptive, if my understanding is right. In the Orthodox belief, according to my priest, though fully human and prone to the consequences of Adam's sin, she (the Holy Theotokos Mary) was preserved in that light by her life in the temple.  And this prepared her for the annunciation and afterward birthgiving of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus.

Forgive me brethren, if I have erred in this thought.  Smiley


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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 04:54:36 PM »



This is somewhat true. There is a service once a week in my parish for people who want to attend for the "OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL HELP" We get communion during this service as well.

And I am a rosary leader at my church as well...

Roman Catholic Masses on Saturdays are usually dedicated to the Blessed Mother.

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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2005, 05:10:42 PM »

Tabby,

The Orthodox have a different understanding of original sin than Catholics. To sum up as best I understand it, the Orthodox Church believes that we inherit a tendency to sin (which we call "original sin" just for the sake of convenience), but believe that we do not inherit guilt. The distinction is hard to articulate without going into a bunch of the anthrpological underpinnings; I do realise that it can appear to be logically inconsistent (when I say this, Catholics usually ask something along the lines of, "well if they are born into a sinful world, and they die and so forth, then isn't that a punishment that came as a result of the fall? and if so, don't they have to be guilty of something to be punished?) All I can say at this point is that we do believe that we are all sinners, we do believe that Mary was born into a sinful world, many believe that Mary was sinless, but we do not believe that she was sinless because she was immaculately conceived or something akin to that. I hope I haven't confused things more than helped!

St. Mary whom we believe was born into a sinful world could have sinned if she chose to, but she didnt and was the greater human being for it, and she is the very example for all of us to follow.  She died (her Dormition) and was I believe raised (her Assumption) to be along side her Son. 

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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2005, 05:41:45 PM »

With all due respect to our RC posters here, I do thnk that the Roman Church is becoming more protestant.  This comes as no surprise to me at all.  To many Orthodox, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are just two sides of the same coin.  The 19th century Russian theologian Alexis Khomiakov called the Pope "the first Protestant".  When asked by a High Church Anglican about how "to arrest the pernicious effects of Protestantism" , Khomiakov replied that he should "shake off [his] Roman Catholicism."  And this was said in 1847!

And what of today, when we see the Roman liturgy largely neutered and reduced to its current "bare bones" kind of structure?  I think it is only a logical progression.....or regression...

Having said all this, it is my own personal belief that the Roman Chruch is not devoid of Grace.  I still feel quite a spiritual kinship with some Roman Catholics. But by no means all of them.
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 05:55:18 PM »

Clark( Innocent) Carlton states in part of his version of the chatechism of the Orthodox chruch that the Orthodox belief is that we are born sinless into a sinful wordl and it is the world around us that corrupt us. Anyone can "get rid of the guilt", but it soes not make the sin less corruptive, if my understanding is right. In the Orthodox belief, according to my priest, though fully human and prone to the consequences of Adam's sin, she (the Holy Theotokos Mary) was preserved in that light by her life in the temple. And this prepared her for the annunciation and afterward birthgiving of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus.

Forgive me brethren, if I have erred in this thought. Smiley


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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2005, 06:28:55 PM »

Bravo Pavoslavbob !

We traditional minded are treated as outcasts by our New Order brethern, no matter on how we point out the Protestant mind set within the Church of Rome.

Organic growth/ revision is fine but many new innovations were not.

Nuff dribble Tongue from me,

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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2005, 09:29:27 PM »

Uh, stop dribbling.  You're getting it all over the Coffee table!  Grin

Sorry had to do pick up on that  Wink

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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2005, 09:44:07 AM »

"With all due respect to our RC posters here, I do thnk that the Roman Church is becoming more protestant."

I always find this comment funny.  Go ask a Protestant if they feel the Latin Catholic Church has become more Protestant, because I have read plenty of Protestant material that claim the changes of Vatican II were cosmetic and nothing substantial changed and Catholicism is still in error.  So if the plan was to make the Latin Church more appealling to Protestants it has failed miserably. 

As to Novus Ordo criticisms, when done correctly there is nothing wrong with it although I can understand some might prefer the additional ritual of the Tridentine Use.  However, to equate the abuses that occur as a form of Protestantization is an insult to our Protestant brethren.  I have attended many Protestant services and excepting Fundamentalists/Pentecostals have never seen anything as distasteful as some of the reported abuses occuring in the Latin Church.  The services are simpler but always respectful and carried out with dignity and a prayerful attitude.

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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2005, 10:14:00 AM »

I am sorry to say but there is abuse in more churches than the RCC....the RCC gets MORE attention from the media because it is the biggest church....

I have experienced abuse from other religions...but the small ones do not get advertized....the media does alot...the media are voltures


anyways....I think the "change"  isnt bad....think about it....in the bible slavery was accepted...we HAD to have a change....

things may change...but the doctrine of faith and morals will NEVER change.  The change is with time of age...not the doctrines....

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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2005, 12:54:43 PM »


As to Novus Ordo criticisms, when done correctly there is nothing wrong with it although I can understand some might prefer the additional ritual of the Tridentine Use.

Here's an interesting article I found at Seattle Catholic (yes, it's trad) Tilting at Liturgical Abuse.   

Nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo?  I understand that you have to say that because you're in communion with Rome but I simply do not understand how anyone who worshipped at a traditional liturgy can say such a thing?  I've yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who didn't understand that there was something fundamentally wrong with the Novus Ordo.  It's kind of like a 'nagging' feeling that there's something wrong.  That Byzantine Catholics can't (or won't perhaps?) see it is bizarre.
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2005, 01:51:01 PM »

Jennifer,

There are many in communion with Rome who assail the Novus Ordo, both Eastern and Latin. I am not one of them because I don't agree with their arguements. I was raised in the Latin Church. The only form of the Latin Rite I ever knew was the Novus Ordo. The parish I grew up in was staffed by Benedictine monks who celebrated the Mass with reverence and according to rubrics. If this were the case everywhere I do not think their would be the problems there are today. That Orthodox, or Byzantine Catholics for that matter, find something wrong with the Novus Ordo is, in my opinion, a byproduct of Byzantine chauvinism that is very evident among us. Most Orthodox liturgist have nothing good to say about the Tridentine use either, feeling the only acceptable Latin liturgy is one that is preschism.

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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2005, 01:56:29 PM »

Most Orthodox liturgist have nothing good to say about the Tridentine use either, feeling the only acceptable Latin liturgy is one that is preschism.

That's not true.  Most Orthodox Christians I know like and respect the Tridentine Mass. 
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2005, 02:00:47 PM »

Deacon Lance,
What was the pre-schism liturgy in the west?

Demetri
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2005, 02:11:33 PM »

Jennifer,

Please reread my post, I said Orthodox liturgists. If you doubt my statements please see what the late Greek Orthodox Bishop of San Francisco had to say about the the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/luxocc.htm

And he is not the only one to express such attitudes.

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« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2005, 02:21:20 PM »

As I have been told on other RC forums, I must suffer/lament in silence and submit to the will of the Vatican. I do not buy the idea that many mistakes were due to mistranslation of the Latin.


Hmm...I feel like saying something, but out of respect it is unspoken.

Dribbling away,

james

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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2005, 02:24:46 PM »

Demetri,

There were many Latin Rites not just one. Besides the Roman, which had many variant usages, there was the Gallican, Mozarabic, and Ambrosian. The Roman Rite evetually supplanted and fused with the Gallican and replaced it. The Mozarabic was suppressed in all but a few parishes and today exists only in a chapel at the Toledo Cathedral. The Ambrosian was the only one to survive and is still used in the Archdiocese of Milan. The Roman Rite itself went through many changes as the Byzantine did. The preschism Roman Rite wasn't exactly the use codified by Trent but it was not all that different either, so demands that Western Orthodox use or attempt to recreate the preschism Roman Mass are rather silly.

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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2005, 02:27:09 PM »

So all of these are pre-schism?
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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2005, 02:33:07 PM »

Yes, the only post-schism rites are uses of the Roman Rite: the Tridentine, Novus Ordo, and Anglican.

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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2005, 02:39:32 PM »

Thank you.
Collecting and comparing rites is a hobby of mine.
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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2005, 03:50:49 PM »


Please reread my post, I said Orthodox liturgists.  If you doubt my statements please see what the late Greek Orthodox Bishop of San Francisco had to say about the the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/luxocc.htm

And he is not the only one to express such attitudes.


Sorry, I jumped too conclusions.  But his opinion is controversial and challenged by those who believe in Western Orthodoxy. 

But remember you claimed "most" liturgists don't like the Tridentine liturgy.  I don't think you can support such a sweeping claim. 

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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2005, 04:29:07 PM »

Jennifer,

Allow me to rephrase then: every Orthodox liturgist I have read besides the Western Orthodox themselves and their supporters in the AOA and ROCOR criticize the Western Rites as unnecessary in general since the Byzantine is available and the Tridentine Rite as an unacceptable becasue it is the product of the post-schism Scholastic Roman Church.

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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2005, 04:42:13 PM »

I don't support creating new Western Rite Orthodox communities really but if a Church that already exists comes into the Orthodox Church and feels an attachment to its ancestral liturgical tradition, then fine, let them come in.

I find that many of the Orthodox liturgists who oppose the Western Rite oppose it because they are anti-Western and one of my western-rite friends even claims based on personal discussions with said liturgists that some even oppose the Western Rite because it is "too traditional."

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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2005, 09:54:17 PM »

Bravo Pavoslavbob !

We traditional minded are treated as outcasts by our New Order brethern, no matter on how we point out the Protestant mind set within the Church of Rome.

Organic growth/ revision is fine but many new innovations were not.

Nuff dribble Tongue from me,

Well, Jakub......I'm very glad that you liked what I had to say.
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2005, 11:19:15 PM »

No problem my friend, I've pretty much have aquired a Orthodox mindset, which is alittle bit of a no-no in a Sicilian familia steeped in traditional Roman Catholic values.

Chow,
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« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2005, 10:38:39 AM »

re. "Orthodox liturgists who dislike the Tridentine Missal"

I think a few issues are being confused here.  There can and often is a difference between Orthodox opposition to the creation of "western rite" communities, and the propriety of "western rites" themselves.  Where the criticisms do overlap (opposition is based on perceived problems with the rites themselves, and not simply some belief that they are unnecessary), I think one has to be careful to discern what the arguments and motives are for said criticisms.  As others have mentioned here, sometimes it is really just poor disguised "anti-westernism", which IMHO is often (though not always) more than simple chauvenism, but is often a cover for modernism of one form or another.  For example, ever notice how many things are disparaged as being "western", but really if you dig a little deeper you realize very quickly they have a legit place in the Orthodox tradition?  Crypto (and not so crypto) stavroclasm is being championed in the name of a "rejection of scholasticism", despite the fact even the great hesychastic father St.Gregory Palamas spoke about the redemption upon the Holy Cross in a way these modernists would probably find downright "Anslemian".  There are many other examples of this tendency I could go into, but I think that example illustrates my meaning clearly enough.

As someone else mentioned in this thread, some "Orthodox liturgists" deeply dislike the Roman Rite precisely because when all is said and done, they have some issues with the Byzantine Liturgy.

I'm not saying there is no room at all for legit criticism, only that there is alot of ill will and unfair dealing involved in such critiques, at least when they go beyond the level of "an Orthodox Western Rite is unnecessary" (at least this is my observation.)

re. "RCC going Protestant?"

While I'm not a big fan of "mediatrix" and "co-redemptrix" type doctrines, I do believe it is fair to say that on a practical level the RCC has been kicking the best parts of it's liturgical and pious traditions to the curb.  Also, while one can argue that nothing has dogmatically changed as a direct result of Vatican II on any official level (which I basically agree with, though there is good grounds to believe that the documents of Vatican II are sufficiently ambiguous to allow all sorts of different interpretations, and this is precisely what has happened - the decrees of the council were promiscuous in their language to say the least), on a practical/disciplinary level much has officially changed; the same goes for the Vatican's basic posture towards the world in general (whether that be other Christian religions, non-Christian religions, or the secular order).  This was done so carelessly (IMHO), that the grass roots consequence has been rampant heterodoxy by any "basic Christian" definition.  It's like there are "no rules" now in most places - it's shocking to see what some religious congregations (particularly the female ones) are up to now days, or what liberalities are allowed in liturgical celebrations.  In some places it's anarchic.

I will agree with Dcn. Lance to a degree...the Novus Ordo Missae can be utilized in a way which is not utterly repugnant to basic, "high church" sensibilities.  If said in Latin (which is really the only good option, since the English translations are so awful, both in terms of accuracy and execution), with chant (or even simple "traditional" Roman Catholic liturgical hymns), in a "normal" pre-Vat II type Latin Church, with decent vestments and with a proper demeanor on the part of both the celebrent and the servers (not to mention that the servers be all male), and the priest facing the proper direction, it's not half bad.

Unfortunately, while there are no prohibitions against any of this, the Vatican has basically let local bishops do whatever they feel like in so far as allowing liberalities beyond this are concerned.  Thus, you can basically guarantee that except for a few truly rare places on the face of this planet (though I will grant they do exist), you will never see what I've just described.

You also have to wonder, given what I've described, why on earth a completly new missal was even needed to begin with.  It seems really redundent, and only an invitation for disaster (which frankly, is what I think the likes of Mgsr.Bugnini and the others involved with concocting this monstrosity had intended).  With a few nips and tucks (like clearing up some accretion issues in the Tridentine Mass, like the issues surrounding the "last gospel", etc.) and if it was deemed truly necessary, some good translations into vernacular languages, they could have gone ahead and kept using the same Missal - thus living up to the letter of what Vatican II basically said regarding liturgical reform, and not opening a door to the anarchy of "liturgical creativity" which the 1969 Novus Ordo (de)form caused.

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« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2005, 10:53:04 AM »

I agree with you on the haste anti-westernism in the Orthodox Church.  It often seems that the only "refutations" of Western doctrines go something like this, "This doctrine is Western, ergo it is false."--as if absolute truth was measured by which side of the Adriatic the doctrine originated from.  Now that doesn't mean I'm going to leave the Orthodox Church, but it does mean that we should look at a doctrine based on its own merits rather than on some Oriental-elitism.  Personally, I believe Anselmism to have some value.

btw....I don't particularly care for the theology of St. Gregory Palamas either....but for precisely the opposite reason than the Calabrian did: i.e. I think its too dualistic....he basically kept the doctrine of created-grace...he only changed the wording....uh-oh...now I know I'm gonna get some EO wrath for saying THAT. Angry
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« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2005, 11:02:11 AM »

Quote
I don't particularly care for the theology of St. Gregory Palamas either....but for precisely the opposite reason than the Calabrian did: i.e. I think its too dualistic....

Interesting. Perhaps we are using the terms with different meanings here, but St. Gregory always struck me as the opposite of a dualist, what with saying that humans were (or could be) greater than angels because we have the "advantage" of a physical body and all. He also seems to be one of the few patristic writers who places the image of God as residing at least partially in the physical body--while other Fathers, if not directly contradicting that idea, were rarely bold enough to go beyond saying stuff like (to summarize) "I think the image of God resides in the intellect/nous, but we cannot be sure about this aspect of creation and I will say no more". But perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by dualistic: I admit that I don't understand what you mean by...

Quote
he basically kept the doctrine of created-grace...he only changed the wording....uh-oh...now I know I'm gonna get some EO wrath for saying THAT

Well if you would like to expand on any of this, I'm sure many of us are all ears. Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2005, 11:16:15 AM »

I can't remember which Council established this (Constantinople 1349 or 1351?--whatever it was, it was only local anyway---I don't agree with the idea of "virtual" Ecumenical Councils like some do {i.e. "Eighth" Ecumenical Council, etc.}), but, anyhoo:

St. Gregory Palamas was saying that "grace" (or "energy") IS God, and not something created by God, which supposedly the RCC believes.  This would have been fine and dandy, if he left it at that.  but then he goes on to qualify it by saying, "oh, but it's not His essence."  But if anyone looks up ousia ("essence") in a Greek dictionary, you'll see something like, "the verbal noun of 'to be'".  So, what St. Gregory Palamas was saying was that God's energy is God, and yet it is not God.  Well?  Which is it?  He almost makes His energy into another ousia, which has drastic conclusions: i.e. two Gods (!)

I could be dead wrong about a lot of this...but this is the general impression I get from St. Gregory Palamas' wording.
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« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2005, 11:43:07 AM »

Ahh.. ok, got ya. I have two books on the shelf on St. Gregory waiting to be read, I'll have to keep what you are saying in mind as I read them and see what to make of it (though I won't get to the Triads) for some time yet.
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« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2005, 12:30:49 PM »

Just curious, idontlikenames, which Greek dictionary are you using? In my meagre library my lexicons could probably show 4 or 5 meanings for ++-à -â+¦+¦, all context sensitive and all period (era) sensitive.

I respect your pursuit, BTW.
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« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2005, 12:50:26 PM »

Aristokles,

I didn't get that from a Greek dictionary....I was giving you all a bunch of hot air laugh

But I know that ousia means "essence" and "essence" is the verbal noun of "to be"
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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2005, 01:05:37 PM »

Yep, that is one meaning..the most common translation, but not the only one. Greek is tough.
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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2005, 01:33:51 PM »

Greek is tough.

Language schmanguage -- Having a Greek mother-in-law is even tougher! Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2005, 01:39:27 PM »

Try having a Greek phys-ed teacher!
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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2005, 02:17:05 PM »

I got an A in Greek this past semester...it was my best class. 
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« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2005, 11:22:47 PM »

Yes, i think the Roman rite did! Thats one reason why i became Eastern rite Catholic which lead me to the Orthodox Church. I believe the Eastern Catholic Church is kind of like a bridge to the Orthodox Church for some.
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« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2005, 09:03:51 AM »


Language schmanguage -- Having a Greek mother-in-law is even tougher! Cheesy

Oy vey, ain't that the truth
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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2005, 01:59:48 PM »



The RCC parshes are NOT embarrssed of their harriatage...they have statues and pictures....I dont know which one you went to...

I am actually not that fimilarr with the orthodox really (note I am not here to convert I am not here to convert anyone to the RCC I am only here to get an understanding...you know go to the source...well here I am) I only know a few things, but orthodox doesnt believe that Mary was saved from orignal sin? am I understanding you right?

Catholic and Orthodox - We believe in God and God teach us every day to forgive.  Anti-Catholic means Orthodox?
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