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Author Topic: Comparing Churches  (Read 3562 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you should just be Eastern Catholic and that there is no difference other than being under the Pope.  There is a difference is theology between the East and West.  However, that is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint.   The Eastern Catholic viewpoint does put their focus on the theology of the East, Christian mysticism and on Patristics.
...

Why would the last bother you? Like Orthodoxy, Catholicism says it's the true church so of course it encourages those considering leaving for Orthodoxy to go Greek Catholic: same faith, different theological school of thought and different rite, to show the Orthodox it's possible.

I don't want to blanketly criticize; but in my experience some of those why-don't-you-go-EC type conversations are quite triumphalistic.
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« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2013, 08:16:18 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.

You make some good criticisms of "OicwR". But I can't help observing that, just before that, you construct a pretty good apology for them: if what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do is to be "entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine" (and I admit I can't confidently say that it isn't), otherwise known as being an "oreo", is it any wonder that they don't comply?
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« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.
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« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2013, 09:06:22 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.

Sorry for weighing in two months late but my father had a different understanding behind removing the label "Greek Catholic" from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic eparchy. First, no one identified as a Ruthenian, most folks erroneously referred to themselves as "Slavish" or Russian - those wouldn't do. More importantly, the legal claim asserted in a number of court cases that the term "Greek Catholic" was proprietary to the Pittsburgh Eparchy was not upheld in some property disputes, including four major ACROD congregations who retained their buildings, despite being chartered congregationally (a bishop was not the sole trustee)as Greek Catholic. These were St John in Ambridge, Pa, St. Michael in Rankin, Pa, St John in Perth Amboy, NJ and St Michael in Binghamton, NY.  The final straw came around 1950 when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rejected the Eparchy's proprietary claim of the name Greek Catholic in a case involving the Eparchy' s cathedral in Munhall, PA (they retained the Church on other grounds) and the home parish of Andy Warhol, St. John Chrysostom in "Rus'ka Dolina" Pittsburgh. The change to BCC created a clear distinction between the Eastern Catholic parishes and the Orthodox in ACROD ( Carparltho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic) and the Metropolia ( Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic). Of course today most Acrod parishes id as "St.-----Orthodox" and pretty much all OCA id as solely Orthodox as well.

You have to remember the context of mid century America, in the "Rust Belt" neighborhoods, towns and villages typically had three and even four small congregations , all founded by blood relatives of the others, representing the various faiths, jurisdictions and - family disputes.
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« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2013, 09:07:29 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

That is the inherent conundrum of forcing a square peg into a round hole.
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« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2013, 09:19:17 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?
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« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2013, 09:26:33 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church. Is the objectionable thing to you a nasty triumphalism or simply Catholicism's true-church claim vs. Orthodoxy's?

Is Orthodox practice reconcilable with Catholic doctrine or are Orthodox-style Greek Catholics fakes, Oreos? Here the two sides disagree. If you agree with the Orthodox and OicwRs, you're no longer really Catholic. I'm sorry but wish you well and hope you find what you're looking for.

Thomism is almost synonymous with Catholicism but just like Catholics don't have to be ultramontane or Roman Rite, they don't have to be Thomists. Palamas may have been nastily anti-Catholic for all I know but born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt. I've never known a Slavic Greek Catholic who knew or cared who he was; I think the very Orthodox-style Melkite Church venerates him.

Orthodox-style Greek Catholics: Melkites, Russian Catholics (born Roman Riters), many of the few born Roman Riters in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholic churches, and Greek Catholic priests trained in Rome. The rest, the ethnic Ukrainians and Ruthenians, are essentially nice ethnic cultural-conservative Roman Riters with a different Mass. (The old po-nashomu inter-ritual mix but now with a hardened Catholic identity since the American schisms and Communism in Europe.)

I'm against any program to latinize Eastern Christians, because their practice is already Catholic. That said, as an outsider it seems to me that, although the Greeks have never hellenized ACROD, in recent decades as our ex-Protestant host American culture's become more anti-Catholic, the reverse of the Greek Catholics' self-latinization has happened in ACROD. That and Orthodox anti-Westernism feed off each other. ACROD's now a bit ashamed of its Catholic heritage; it wasn't before, even though it always was mad at the Catholics, understandably. So a church created to preserve po-nashomu religion 'as is' (they wanted things to stay the same, very conservative, very Slavic) ended up no longer being that but a kind of ersatz Greek Orthodoxy with different music, rather like the Metropolia/OCA Ruthenians, most American Russian Orthodox, are now ersatz Russians. Both are now self-consciously Orthodox just like the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics are now self-consciously Catholic and happily self-latinized.

Right, the departing Greek Catholic parishes, in both the Toth and Chornock splits, kept those words in their names partly for the po-nashomu reason – in the old country, Greek Catholic was their only faith, and to them at the time, it didn't necessarily mean under Rome; they didn't care that much about that – and partly for the legal reason that it helped when they were taking and keeping their property from the Catholic Church. Not really because of Orthodoxy's boast of being the real Catholic Church, nor because they really missed the Catholic Church. The term is still in ACROD's official name as far as I know, the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese of America or of the USA. Likewise, for decades, from the Toth split until autocephaly in 1970, the American Russian Orthodox' official name was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America or of the USA. Because most American Russian Orthodox are originally po-nashomu Slavish, not from Russia.
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« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctine.
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« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2013, 09:31:16 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctrine.

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.
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« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2013, 09:32:27 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.

You make some good criticisms of "OicwR". But I can't help observing that, just before that, you construct a pretty good apology for them: if what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do is to be "entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine" (and I admit I can't confidently say that it isn't), otherwise known as being an "oreo", is it any wonder that they don't comply?

The "oreo" concept is the Disneyland re-creation of eastern Christianity to which Fr. Taft and others rightly object. Orthodox practice and ritual are intrinsically linked to Orthodox doctrine. To us, especially those of us coming from a formerly Greek Catholic  background, this is why Rome's concept of "sui juris" churches in union with Rome on Rome's terms is, in the end, unworkable. I say that with a sense of sadness as I am well aware of the piety, loyalty and sacrifices made by the Greek Catholics in Europe during the 20th century, but that does not obscure the  inherent problem with the models of the post Florence unions.
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« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2013, 09:36:13 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctrine.

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

What the (Ecumenical) Council of Vienne decreed seems to me to be a better source on Catholic doctrine than what Catholic Bob from 5th Avenue has to say.

Quite sad that you always try to dismiss my arguments by calling me 'convertodox' or other such terms when it is clear to everyone who read at least five of my posts that I am not in any way convertodox, hyperdox or whatever.
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« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2013, 09:37:44 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate , it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.
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« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2013, 09:40:30 AM »

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

I wonder what an ethnic American Catholic would say about abortion and contraception. Wink
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« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2013, 09:42:20 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.
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« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2013, 09:43:23 AM »

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist.

You have never been to Greece.
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« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2013, 09:48:54 AM »

Right, I've never been. I was referring to ethnic hyperdox Americans. The immigrant paradox is interesting. They seem foreign here but Americanized to the people back home. Maybe that's what happened in this instance.
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« Reply #106 on: June 26, 2013, 09:53:23 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.

You miss my point.

Eastern Catholics should not and do not view their practices as  faux imitation of the real deal like Disney's Epcot. Nor do I.

If, however, Roman Caholics view the eastern Church as just another group like "us" of one accord with all of the symbolic expressions of belief embedded in Roman Catholicism but using different books,hymns, "hats" and "costumes", well - that's the problem, and a problem recognized by many Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #107 on: June 26, 2013, 10:01:45 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.

You miss my point.

Eastern Catholics should not and do not view their practices as  faux imitation of the real deal like Disney's Epcot. Nor do I.

If, however, Roman Caholics view the eastern Church as just another group like "us" of one accord with all of the symbolic expressions of belief embedded in Roman Catholicism but using different books,hymns, "hats" and "costumes", well - that's the problem, and a problem recognized by many Eastern Catholics.

Once I was with an enthusiastic Catholic convert when a third person asked who Byzantine Catholics were, and I explained that they worship like the Orthodox but are Catholic, and Mr. Convert said, 'No, the Orthodox worship like us!' Of course I believe the true-church claim he was trying to defend, but that is one of the dumbest things I've heard. Triumphalism. Better the Roman Rite converts in the Russian Catholic Church: 'We have a patriarch and other bishops, only right now they're not Catholic.'

Again, enthusiastic Orthodox-style Greek Catholics and OicwRs look awfully alike. But they're not. If you don't accept the symbolical expressions of Catholicism, you should in good conscience go somewhere else.
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« Reply #108 on: June 26, 2013, 10:05:15 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?
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« Reply #109 on: June 26, 2013, 10:11:47 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.
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« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2013, 10:13:30 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.
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« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2013, 10:14:59 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable
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« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2013, 10:16:39 AM »

Correction: 'Energies, not essence', said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.
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« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2013, 10:17:51 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.
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« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2013, 10:19:58 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.
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« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2013, 10:21:05 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.
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« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2013, 10:21:37 AM »

Correction: 'Energies, not essence', said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

I doubt that. But the Fifth Council of Constantinople would be just as valid even if no "ethnic" American Orthodox layman ever mentioned Palamas or a distinction between essence and energies. You should really come with better arguments because now you're contradicting yourself. Either dogma is important or it isn't. You seem to bewail Anglicanism and their changing doctrines all the time but you yourself make the dogmas of the Church dependent on what some laymen may or may not say.
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« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2013, 10:23:27 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

The Synodicon of Orthodoxy, which is part of the Byzantine Rite, condemns the adversaries of Palamism. The "Fifteenth Ecumenical Council" opposed Palamism. Don't you see the irony of the Byzantine Catholics and how they can impossibly be "Orthodox in worship, Catholic in faith". Lex orandi, lex credendi.
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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2013, 10:27:26 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

'Palamism' is like the 'war' between the Franciscans and the Jesuits.
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« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2013, 10:29:22 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

What on earth are you talking about? What did I say about your heritage or true Christianity? I only claimed that the Byzantine Rite is incompatible with Roman Catholicism and its dogmas.

And Palamism is but one of the examples. Palamism can hardly be reduced to a triviality.
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« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2013, 10:35:14 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

What on earth are you talking about? What did I say about your heritage or true Christianity? I only claimed that the Byzantine Rite is incompatible with Roman Catholicism and its dogmas.

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

And Palamism is but one of the examples. Palamism can hardly be reduced to a triviality.

History and the experience of people in both churches prove that wrong. Just like the EO/OO fight may well be a big nothing.
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« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2013, 10:46:27 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

Again, it is NOT just the Melkites.  Please direct your attention to February 17 and 24, 2013.

http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/2013-liturgical-calendar
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« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2013, 10:50:03 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."
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« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

Again, it is NOT just the Melkites.  Please direct your attention to February 17 and 24, 2013.

http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/2013-liturgical-calendar

Most Slavic Greek Catholics don't know or care who Palamas was and would want to punch you in the nose if you called them Orthodox.
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« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)
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« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2013, 10:53:56 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."

I don't follow you. Are you saying the pre-'Reformation' churches' unanimous opposition to the attempted ordination of women and to same-sex pseudo-marriage is wrong?
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« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2013, 10:56:23 AM »

P.S. Another good example:

Once I was with an enthusiastic Catholic convert when a third person asked who Byzantine Catholics were, and I explained that they worship like the Orthodox but are Catholic, and Mr. Convert said, 'No, the Orthodox worship like us!'
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« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2013, 10:56:55 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)

My conversation with the same dumb-sounding convert:

Him: Catholics and schismatics.
Me: You mean Catholics and Orthodox?
Him: I mean Catholics and schismatics.

Right, that's just mean. Born Orthodox are not personally guilty of schism, which is why the Orthodox-style Greek Catholics, such as the Russian Catholics and the Melkites, commemorate post-schism Orthodox saints.
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« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2013, 11:03:33 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."

 Huh
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« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2013, 11:10:10 AM »

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

Therein lies the rub. I don't use the phrase "the benefit of the doubt" as often as you do, but I can't think a more appropriate place to use it than here.

Not only do we give the benefit of the doubt to born Orthodox (and, hopefully, they to born Catholics); we also give the benefit of the doubt to born Catholics who disagree with the pope in ways that don't necessarily rise to the level of breaking-off communion.
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« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2013, 11:21:04 AM »

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

Therein lies the rub. I don't use the phrase "the benefit of the doubt" as often as you do, but I can't think a more appropriate place to use it than here.

Not only do we give the benefit of the doubt to born Orthodox (and, hopefully, they to born Catholics); we also give the benefit of the doubt to born Catholics who disagree with the pope in ways that don't necessarily rise to the level of breaking-off communion.

I've read your post questioning Catholic doctrine. One of my favorite expressions is the church, including the pre-conciliar one I identify with, is not a cult; it couldn't micromanage you even if it wanted to. Lots of Catholics don't agree with the church, and the church leaves them alone. The church only bothers to condemn someone as a heretic if he's educated enough to know better, is in a position of authority and trust, and has been warned. The university isn't a catechism class; it's a debating society. That said, there's a difference between asking questions and preaching dissent online for many years. This is a powerful pulpit; many could leave the church over what somebody posts. So my line is if you arrogate to yourself the teaching role of a pastor or professor, you incur the same responsibility and consequences. In other words, the leading online OicwR's parish priest and bishop should excommunicate him, even though he's otherwise theologically and liturgically conservative. Because he's not really Catholic. Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).
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« Reply #131 on: June 26, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...
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« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Earlier in this thread:

Well ... I'm never entirely surely what to say about them; but I think the best I can say is that I see them as the "law of the land", so to speak, in the Roman Communion, but not necessarily actual dogmas.

So I guess I can't say either "They're optional" or "They're not optional" without adding additional explanation/qualifier.


Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...

Dual communion is an ecumenist fantasy of the OicwRs. It doesn't work that way. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not mainline Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians and ELCA. At the highest level, intercommunion would mean one side has given in and joined the other. Because each claims it's the true church. Not the same as ethnics, such the Syrian Melkites' and Orthodox' longtime custom, going back and forth in what's sacramentally the same, says Catholicism.

P.S. 'The Rrrroman communion.' That takes me back to my Anglican childhood. (Because sometimes they claim to be Catholic too.) Hail, Caesar!  Cheesy
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« Reply #133 on: June 26, 2013, 12:11:23 PM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Earlier in this thread:

Well ... I'm never entirely surely what to say about them; but I think the best I can say is that I see them as the "law of the land", so to speak, in the Roman Communion, but not necessarily actual dogmas.

So I guess I can't say either "They're optional" or "They're not optional" without adding additional explanation/qualifier.


OIC. Usually I can tell which post you're not quoting, but sometimes I can't. Wink

Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...

Dual communion is an ecumenist fantasy of the OicwRs. It doesn't work that way. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not mainline Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians and ELCA. At the highest level, intercommunion would mean one side has given in and joined the other. Because each claims it's the true church. Not the same as ethnics, such the Syrian Melkites' and Orthodox' longtime custom, going back and forth in what's sacramentally the same, says Catholicism.

In any case, I do have to fault myself for loose us of the term "dual communion".
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« Reply #134 on: June 26, 2013, 12:25:41 PM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)

My conversation with the same dumb-sounding convert:

Him: Catholics and schismatics.
Me: You mean Catholics and Orthodox?
Him: I mean Catholics and schismatics.

Right, that's just mean. Born Orthodox are not personally guilty of schism, which is why the Orthodox-style Greek Catholics, such as the Russian Catholics and the Melkites, commemorate post-schism Orthodox saints.
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