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Author Topic: Comparing Churches  (Read 3458 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2013, 01:24:31 AM »

Most Eastern Catholics omit proskemedia.
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2013, 06:28:07 AM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church. 

What Catholic Churches, ...

To piggy-back on that question, the term used here, "Eastern Catholic", often means (at least on the internet) exclusively Greek Catholics. Is that how you meant it here, Kerdy (excluding Maronites etc.)?
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2013, 06:32:05 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.
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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2013, 09:07:25 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2013, 09:40:15 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church. 

What Catholic Churches, ...

To piggy-back on that question, the term used here, "Eastern Catholic", often means (at least on the internet) exclusively Greek Catholics. Is that how you meant it here, Kerdy (excluding Maronites etc.)?

OK. Here we have two sui-iuri Churches: Ukrainian one and the Byzantine-Slavonic (aka Neouniate). The first one uses exclusively Ukrainian and makes everything not to look like the Orthodox Church here (flat felonion, clean-shaved clergy, omophorions hanging straight, removal of proskomede, litanies etc., no infant communion, no ordinations for married). The latter is supposed to follow all practices that the Orthodox Church in Poland follows (Russian usage). On the other hand I'm aware that there are Orthodox Churches (like ACROD or UOC-USA) that might have practices exactly like the Ukrainian Catholics here. And notice, I've not even mentioned Melkites.

That means even if Kerdy means only Byzantine Catholics difference within BC Churches or EO Churches are sometimes greater than between particular BC and EO. That means his question to broad to answer and I asked to precise what Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Orthodox Churches he'd like to compare. And "where" is also important since I'm aware that even among the Ukrainian Catholics for example practices might vary between diaspora and "canonical" territories.
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2013, 08:38:33 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 09:00:27 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 10:38:02 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.

Alright. I can't say I have any actual objections to calling it "the Byzantine Rite" rather "the Greek Rite" ... although somehow "Greek Catholics" comes to my mind a split second faster than "Byzantine Catholics" does ... possibly a subconscious reaction to the fact that many people use "Byzantine Catholics" to mean exclusively the Ruthenians.

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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2013, 11:33:28 PM »

Most Eastern Catholics omit proskemedia.

Where did you get this idea?
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2013, 11:40:23 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2013, 11:46:49 PM »

If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.

And yet it is the way your Church identifies itself: Melkite Greek Catholic
http://www.pgc-lb.org/english/index.shtml
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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2013, 01:29:06 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Also, I remember someone stating it was a middle of the road between Rome and Orthodoxy.  In what way?  What keeps them from being fully Orthodox? 

This is the general direction I am going, but it seems my ignorance on the matter shows it may not be as easy a subject to discuss.
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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2013, 02:53:07 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?

No, they use the Latin rite and are subject to the Roman See. No-one but those in the much-diminished Ecumenical Patriarchate are under the Byzantine Throne and most of the Greek Catholics use Slavic liturgical traditions instead of the Greek ones. The Ruthenians calling themself Byzantine is silly as well. Perhaps they should call themselves the  Muscovite Catholic Church...
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« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2013, 03:22:31 AM »

why commune with Rome? 

They think it is important. Or there were some political motives. Or personal ones...

Quote
Also, I remember someone stating it was a middle of the road between Rome and Orthodoxy.  In what way?

They try to compromise Orthodox and non-Orthodox theology. And they do not succeed since it's impossible.

Quote
What keeps them from being fully Orthodox? 

Not being Orthodox. And communion with the non-Orthodox. That's for the start.
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« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2013, 06:23:03 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?
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« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2013, 06:26:07 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?

Both, I guess.  I suppose I find it difficult to believe a group more associated with Orthodoxy would commune with Rome for convenience.  Not only this, but what are the theological (if any) differences between them and the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2013, 07:09:26 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?

Both, I guess.  I suppose I find it difficult to believe a group more associated with Orthodoxy would commune with Rome for convenience.  Not only this, but what are the theological (if any) differences between them and the Orthodox Church.

I'll offer a couple brief answers:

For the first one
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
quite frankly, I wouldn't feel justified in jumping ship like that. Who knows, maybe someday I'll feel differently (e.g. if I believed that Papal Supremacy was a heresy, that would certainly make a difference).

For the second,
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?
(this is just a possible explanation that people could give) I think there are few* Melkites who want a change of that kind ... and even if say 60% of the Melkite Church did actually prefer not to be in communion with Rome, the fact that 40% didn't prefer that would be an important consideration.

* I say "few" because trying to put a percentage would be baseless speculation. Of course, the number 60% and 40% are purely hypothetical.
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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2013, 07:11:52 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.
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« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.
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« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2013, 08:00:42 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.

Understood.  Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2013, 08:10:10 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
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« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2013, 12:48:45 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.
Your biased 'suspicions' are not helpful in any substantive way. Some people are profoundly touched by the liturgy and its particular theology which is why there surely are some Latin rite 'converts' to the Byzantine Catholic Church. A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

However, your 'diagnosis' - that BCCs dont have the 'guts' to convert to EO or OO - fails to account for substantive issues that may keep them in Communion with Rome as opposed to EO.
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2013, 12:51:48 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
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« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2013, 12:55:36 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.
I don't think that anyone doubts your sincerity, at least it seems to me that you have been very sincere ITT.
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« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2013, 10:29:24 PM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2013, 11:34:11 PM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.
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« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2013, 04:33:39 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
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« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2013, 10:12:29 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    

I would love to read more about how someone came to Catholicism from Orthodoxy with her beginnings being the Novus Ordo Mass. I had always guessed that Mass, in itself, would present a stumbling block to any chance of Orthodox reunion (with the Communion in the Hand, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, versus populum, etc.).

For me, learning about the construction of the Novus Ordo Missae has had the opposite effect, causing me to seriously doubt the claims of the Catholic Church. The existence of the more Traditional groups as a remnant keeps me hanging on (even though none are close to me, so I attend the Novus Ordo).

Do you have any more information to share about this person's conversion?
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« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2013, 10:58:12 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.
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« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2013, 10:10:05 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.

Good point. Although there are many things I admire about the Orthodox, they aren't exactly a model of not-being-triumphalistic-about-Catholics-and-protestants-who-convert-to-Orthodoxy (NBTACAPWCTO).
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« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2013, 04:04:04 PM »

That "icon" is horrible.

Literally placing Christ in a box.
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2013, 05:10:22 PM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
LOL. Or we know its status all too well.  Btw, there is no "Byzantine Catholic Church," sui juris or otherwise.
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« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
LOL. Or we know its status all too well.  Btw, there is no "Byzantine Catholic Church," sui juris or otherwise.

True, there are several Byzantine Catholic Churches (all sui iuris).
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« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2013, 07:41:17 PM »

I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.
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« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2013, 01:52:13 AM »


I actually attended a service once.

I was taking an iconography class being taught in the church hall of a ByzCatholic church.

One evening everyone piled in to the church prior to class, as it was the Eve of a Feast Day.  I was double minded whether I should go or not...not wanting to do the "wrong" thing...

After some thought, I went in....and having never been in one, was amazed.

It was just like my church.  Smiley   There was an iconostas, the priest was dressed much like mine, icons looked familiar, etc.

There were some unfamiliar hymns being sung, and of course the pope was commemorated, etc.

However, if I had not known better, I would have thought I was standing in an Orthodox parish church.  That alone made me both happy and sad.  Happy that it was so close to Orthodox, and sad because it was so close to Orthodox.

1. Most American Ukrainian Orthodox are descendants of a 1930s schism of American Ukrainian Catholics so the two churches are very similar.

2. Rome has told the Ukrainian Catholics to rebyzantinize, which they've halfheartedly done.

3. That's exactly how I feel in reverse about ACROD. Once visited St Michael's, St Clair, PA, and it was heartbreaking to me; I could tell it was once Catholic. Great that they're so close to Catholic, and sad because they're so close to Catholic. Because the oldest among them were Catholic.
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« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:17 AM »

You might see this:



That's the reverse of Latinization, I guess.

Well meant but I understand the offense and I don't encourage having Westernized icons like that.
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« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2013, 01:59:23 AM »

This older Ukrainian Greek Catholic lady I know insists the only difference between her and I is that she sides with the Pope and I don't. Tongue I would say this is probably accurate for some Eastern Catholics.

That said, she regularly goes to a Latin Rite parish and her old UGCC parish that she mentions has some weird practices (i.e. they celebrate both dates for Easter, etc.).

I know people who see absolutely no difference between the two and hop from one all the time....because they are both Ukrainian.

Now THAT is sad.



I've never met anyone like that but it fits what I've been told about Carpathian Slavic religion before the schisms in America and Communism in their homeland. It wasn't strongly Catholic or Orthodox even though it was officially Catholic. It was ethnic.
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« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2013, 02:04:08 AM »

Having a Roman Catholic father and an Eastern Catholic mother, this is what I see as differences and similarities:

In many Byzantine Catholic churches, they have shortened the Liturgy. After the first litany, they might move on to the Gospel readings and then the Eucharist.   In my Orthodox church, there are 2 more litanies. Also, in the Byzantine Catholic churches, they might not have people come up to venerate the cross after every Liturgy, this seems to be reserved for special occasions where you get oil on your forehead.   Another difference is they have seemed to cut out the singing of "In Health and Salvation... God grant them many years" at the end of every Liturgy.  This also is reserved for special occasions.  In my Orthodox church, this is sung every Sunday.  

Also, in Byzantine Catholic churches in America,  you get many Roman Catholics visiting and also Roman Catholic priests who are biritual so there might be more of a blending of Roman Catholic practices into Eastern Christian ones, such as the Divine Mercy chaplet. However, this doesn't seem to be worked into the actual Liturgy, it might be a practice outside of the Liturgy.

One point I want to make is that the Byzantine Catholics are not Italian Roman Catholics who put on the cloak of Orthodoxy to trick the Orthodox into being duped into falling under the Pope's control.  They were Orthodox Slavs from the very beginning and for whatever reason went under the Pope.  So, they have the tradition of Orthodoxy and have done a pretty good job of keeping it intact in the face of modernism.

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you should just be Eastern Catholic and that there is no difference other than being under the Pope.  There is a difference is theology between the East and West.  However, that is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint.   The Eastern Catholic viewpoint does put their focus on the theology of the East, Christian mysticism and on Patristics.

 

Most of this is a pretty good summary of the differences in practice. But the blending of Western Catholic practices wasn't because of Roman Rite visitors but from the Slavic Greek Catholics themselves.

Why would the last bother you? Like Orthodoxy, Catholicism says it's the true church so of course it encourages those considering leaving for Orthodoxy to go Greek Catholic: same faith, different theological school of thought and different rite, to show the Orthodox it's possible.
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« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2013, 02:06:10 AM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic 

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that. Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.

The tiny Russian Catholic Church is like that: born Latins who love everything Russian Orthodox but want to remain Catholic, so they're more Orthodox than the Slavic Greek Catholics. As are the Roman Rite converts to the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches, including priests trained in Rome.
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2013, 02:07:29 AM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.

They're fading fast in America; might go out of business.
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2013, 02:08:04 AM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.

Yep, I was baptised one. Over here there are two different flavors of Reformed - Dutch Reformed and "Gereformeerd". Both have subdenominations. And then there are of course the Latins but you won't get them more any liberal than over here. There are no Eastern Catholics except for some Latins who admit on their very website that they only differ from the other Latins because they have a funny mass and that it's basically just a hobby. There are Orthodox parishes in some of the big cities, though, but none in mine.

It seems I have derailed this thread a little bit  Smiley


What's Gereformeerd?
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« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2013, 02:15:14 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.
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« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2013, 02:19:48 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    

I would love to read more about how someone came to Catholicism from Orthodoxy with her beginnings being the Novus Ordo Mass. I had always guessed that Mass, in itself, would present a stumbling block to any chance of Orthodox reunion (with the Communion in the Hand, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, versus populum, etc.).

For me, learning about the construction of the Novus Ordo Missae has had the opposite effect, causing me to seriously doubt the claims of the Catholic Church. The existence of the more Traditional groups as a remnant keeps me hanging on (even though none are close to me, so I attend the Novus Ordo).

Do you have any more information to share about this person's conversion?

I can see a reverent Novus Ordo turning someone Catholicwards but agree with you about Novus. I almost never go to it. That said, Pope Benedict's reform of it in English means it gives me no conscience problems, unlike the old English paraphrase. It's just inferior and annoying.
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2013, 02:23:02 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.

Good point. Although there are many things I admire about the Orthodox, they aren't exactly a model of not-being-triumphalistic-about-Catholics-and-protestants-who-convert-to-Orthodoxy (NBTACAPWCTO).

Of course I appreciate the true-church claim, just like the Russian bishops weren't offended when Pope Benedict repeated it, but yeah, that is kind of pathetic. Understandable when the reality is they're tiny churches in America losing people like crazy because the ethnics leave when they assimilate, and most of the few converts are because of marriage.
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