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Author Topic: Comparing Churches  (Read 3262 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 21, 2013, 07:49:58 AM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church.  I have heard some say there are no other differences.  I ask for my personal education and would hope responding posts are thoughtful.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 08:12:38 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 08:50:25 AM »


I actually attended a service once.

I was taking an iconography class being taught in the church hall of a ByzCatholic church.

One evening everyone piled in to the church prior to class, as it was the Eve of a Feast Day.  I was double minded whether I should go or not...not wanting to do the "wrong" thing...

After some thought, I went in....and having never been in one, was amazed.

It was just like my church.  Smiley   There was an iconostas, the priest was dressed much like mine, icons looked familiar, etc.

There were some unfamiliar hymns being sung, and of course the pope was commemorated, etc.

However, if I had not known better, I would have thought I was standing in an Orthodox parish church.  That alone made me both happy and sad.  Happy that it was so close to Orthodox, and sad because it was so close to Orthodox.


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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 06:25:28 PM »

Thank you Liza.  I was doing some Google research but I am not sure where I want to start as there seems to be a few different ideas floating around.  I thought, "Where better to ask than the people who are members?"
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 07:42:12 PM »

However, if I had not known better, I would have thought I was standing in an Orthodox parish church.  That alone made me both happy and sad.  Happy that it was so close to Orthodox, and sad because it was so close to Orthodox.
It makes me happy that our Churches are so similar and that we have a shared Tradition that makes us very close. The theological disputes that keep us separated are depressing.
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 08:45:47 PM »

However, if I had not known better, I would have thought I was standing in an Orthodox parish church.  That alone made me both happy and sad.  Happy that it was so close to Orthodox, and sad because it was so close to Orthodox.
It makes me happy that our Churches are so similar and that we have a shared Tradition that makes us very close. The theological disputes that keep us separated are depressing.

That's exactly why I was both happy and sad.

So, close.....and yet, so far.

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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 08:58:53 PM »

What keeps them separate?
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 09:16:58 PM »

What keeps them separate?
Are you new? Tongue The role of the Papacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, filioque, etc.
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 09:53:00 PM »

This older Ukrainian Greek Catholic lady I know insists the only difference between her and I is that she sides with the Pope and I don't. Tongue I would say this is probably accurate for some Eastern Catholics.

That said, she regularly goes to a Latin Rite parish and her old UGCC parish that she mentions has some weird practices (i.e. they celebrate both dates for Easter, etc.).
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 10:06:38 PM »

What keeps them separate?
Are you new? Tongue The role of the Papacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, filioque, etc.
Not new.  I just haven't kept up with the discussions and wanted it explained in one place.  As I understand it, they are more Orthodox than Catholic but they are in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2013, 10:27:09 PM »

What keeps them separate?
Are you new? Tongue The role of the Papacy, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, filioque, etc.
Not new.  I just haven't kept up with the discussions and wanted it explained in one place.  As I understand it, they are more Orthodox than Catholic but they are in communion with Rome.
I was referring to the separations between Catholics and Orthodox, not between ECs and RCs. I wasn't sure if I was clear on that.
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2013, 10:35:52 PM »

This older Ukrainian Greek Catholic lady I know insists the only difference between her and I is that she sides with the Pope and I don't. Tongue I would say this is probably accurate for some Eastern Catholics.

That said, she regularly goes to a Latin Rite parish and her old UGCC parish that she mentions has some weird practices (i.e. they celebrate both dates for Easter, etc.).

I know people who see absolutely no difference between the two and hop from one all the time....because they are both Ukrainian.

Now THAT is sad.

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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2013, 10:48:33 PM »

I know people who see absolutely no difference between the two and hop from one all the time....because they are both Ukrainian.

Now THAT is sad.

I think she personally knows better than that, but I could be wrong.

Although I don't think that's limited to Ukrainians... I've heard of a good number of Orthodox that don't seem to see a problem with communing at Catholic churches when they visit, and a few of the Latin Catholics that I know from the woman's parish have no problem with church hopping - with evangelical/baptist Protestants, even.
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 01:37:21 AM »

If both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches retracted the excommunications of the other, why are Eastern Catholics not part of the Orthodox Church?  Everything I have read about them states they are independent from the Roman Church.
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 01:43:15 AM »

I know we have some Eastern Catholics (or those who are generally categorized as such) who have something to offer.  I am truly interested.
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 02:22:42 AM »

If both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches retracted the excommunications of the other, why are Eastern Catholics not part of the Orthodox Church?  Everything I have read about them states they are independent from the Roman Church.

AFAIK, the lifting of excommunications between Rome and Constantinople don't really have any effects beyond just that, and I don't think it has any real bearing on the existence of Eastern Catholics.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 "sui iuris" churches, or autonomous churches. The Latin Church is the largest, but there are others such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Church, the Maronite Church, Coptic Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, etc. Each one is effectively self-ruling, and generally contains its own rite(s). While they are independent, each one recognizes the ultimate role of the Bishop of Rome over the entire Catholic Church. Except for the Maronite Church, most of them entered communion with Rome after a schism within a church. For example, the Melkite Church came out of a schism within the Antiochian Church.

See this Wiki for more information.

The Union of Brest is important too, but I don't know much about it.
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 10:16:45 AM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 10:20:23 AM »

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 "sui iuris" churches, or autonomous churches. The Latin Church is the largest, but there are others such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Church, the Maronite Church, Coptic Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, etc. Each one is effectively self-ruling, and generally contains its own rite(s).

Some do ... 14 of the 23 (aka the Greek Catholic Churches) use the Byzantine Rite.
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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 10:21:12 AM »

This older Ukrainian Greek Catholic lady I know insists the only difference between her and I is that she sides with the Pope and I don't. Tongue I would say this is probably accurate for some Eastern Catholics.

That said, she regularly goes to a Latin Rite parish and her old UGCC parish that she mentions has some weird practices (i.e. they celebrate both dates for Easter, etc.).

I know people who see absolutely no difference between the two and hop from one all the time....because they are both Ukrainian.

Now THAT is sad.

Was it you who told the anecdote about a woman who was asked something about receiving communion in a Catholic church vs. in an Orthodox church, and who responded "What's the difference, as long as it's a Ukrainian church?"?

I find that disturbing.
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 11:24:59 AM »

You might see this:



That's the reverse of Latinization, I guess.
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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 01:25:05 PM »

Before I started going to a GOA parish, I almost settled on an ECC parish. That was three years ago.
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 01:44:38 PM »

That "icon" is horrible.
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 02:17:32 PM »

Having a Roman Catholic father and an Eastern Catholic mother, this is what I see as differences and similarities:

In many Byzantine Catholic churches, they have shortened the Liturgy. After the first litany, they might move on to the Gospel readings and then the Eucharist.   In my Orthodox church, there are 2 more litanies. Also, in the Byzantine Catholic churches, they might not have people come up to venerate the cross after every Liturgy, this seems to be reserved for special occasions where you get oil on your forehead.   Another difference is they have seemed to cut out the singing of "In Health and Salvation... God grant them many years" at the end of every Liturgy.  This also is reserved for special occasions.  In my Orthodox church, this is sung every Sunday.  

Also, in Byzantine Catholic churches in America,  you get many Roman Catholics visiting and also Roman Catholic priests who are biritual so there might be more of a blending of Roman Catholic practices into Eastern Christian ones, such as the Divine Mercy chaplet. However, this doesn't seem to be worked into the actual Liturgy, it might be a practice outside of the Liturgy.

One point I want to make is that the Byzantine Catholics are not Italian Roman Catholics who put on the cloak of Orthodoxy to trick the Orthodox into being duped into falling under the Pope's control.  They were Orthodox Slavs from the very beginning and for whatever reason went under the Pope.  So, they have the tradition of Orthodoxy and have done a pretty good job of keeping it intact in the face of modernism.

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you should just be Eastern Catholic and that there is no difference other than being under the Pope.  There is a difference is theology between the East and West.  However, that is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint.   The Eastern Catholic viewpoint does put their focus on the theology of the East, Christian mysticism and on Patristics.

 
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 02:32:57 PM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic 

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that. Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 02:57:07 PM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)
Hey Pete, just curious. Where are you now on dogmas like Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, etc.?
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 03:18:44 PM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)
Hey Pete, just curious. Where are you now on dogmas like Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, etc.?

Well ... I'm never entirely surely what to say about them; but I think the best I can say is that I see them as the "law of the land", so to speak, in the Roman Communion, but not necessarily actual dogmas.

So I guess I can't say either "They're optional" or "They're not optional" without adding additional explanation/qualifier.
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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 03:29:04 PM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic  

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that.

I guess it depends ... I can certainly see how it could be annoying, or even disturbing, if said in a way dismissive of Eastern Orthodoxy (as though EOs are just ECs-minus-the-pope  Wink).

On the other hand, when someone is already in-communion-with-Rome we believe that they have an obligation to stay in-communion-with-Rome. That's an important consideration.

Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.

Interesting ... I'm afraid I've quite forgotten what country you live in. England or Australia perhaps?
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 03:31:28 PM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic 

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that. Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.

Check for nearest Ukrainian immigrant ghetto in your town.
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 03:37:12 PM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic 

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that. Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.

Check for nearest Ukrainian immigrant ghetto in your town.

Nope. No Ukrainian ghettos here. Not sure whether that's a bad thing.

Interesting ... I'm afraid I've quite forgotten what country you live in. England or Australia perhaps?

Almost. The Netherlands  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 03:42:10 PM »

Nope. No Ukrainian ghettos here. Not sure whether that's a bad thing.

Nowhere in the Netherlands? I though your country was filled with all kinds of immigrants.
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 03:44:44 PM »

Nope. No Ukrainian ghettos here. Not sure whether that's a bad thing.

Nowhere in the Netherlands? I though your country was filled with all kinds of immigrants.

It's mostly limited to Turks, Morrocans, Poles, Surinamese and a some Chinese to make our food.
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2013, 03:52:56 PM »

Nope. No Ukrainian ghettos here. Not sure whether that's a bad thing.

Nowhere in the Netherlands? I though your country was filled with all kinds of immigrants.

It's mostly limited to Turks, Morrocans, Poles, Surinamese and a some Chinese to make our food.

For some reason it is always as fascinating to notice that while Western Europe is filled with all kinds of immigrants from the thirld world every country seem to have their own slice of the cake. I wonder what happens when things settle down in the South and the East. Somalia will have a massive Finnish diaspora whereas mushrooms and hemp will be the number one delicacy in Poland.
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2013, 04:14:04 PM »

Interesting ... I'm afraid I've quite forgotten what country you live in. England or Australia perhaps?

Almost. The Netherlands  Smiley

Oh yes, that's coming back to me now ... and that you used to be on CAF.

So ... lot of Catholics and liberal Lutherans?
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2013, 04:16:29 PM »

Interesting ... I'm afraid I've quite forgotten what country you live in. England or Australia perhaps?

Almost. The Netherlands  Smiley

Oh yes, that's coming back to me now ... and that you used to be on CAF.

So ... lot of Catholics and liberal Lutherans?

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2013, 04:32:53 PM »

Interesting ... I'm afraid I've quite forgotten what country you live in. England or Australia perhaps?

Almost. The Netherlands  Smiley

Oh yes, that's coming back to me now ... and that you used to be on CAF.

So ... lot of Catholics and liberal Lutherans?

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

Oh, maybe.
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2013, 06:13:14 PM »

That "icon" is horrible.

I agree....
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2013, 06:28:22 PM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2013, 01:29:22 AM »

That "icon" is horrible.

I agree....

Thirded. Don't get me started on it ...  Tongue Tongue Angry
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2013, 06:30:50 AM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.

Yep, I was baptised one. Over here there are two different flavors of Reformed - Dutch Reformed and "Gereformeerd". Both have subdenominations. And then there are of course the Latins but you won't get them more any liberal than over here. There are no Eastern Catholics except for some Latins who admit on their very website that they only differ from the other Latins because they have a funny mass and that it's basically just a hobby. There are Orthodox parishes in some of the big cities, though, but none in mine.

It seems I have derailed this thread a little bit  Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2013, 01:13:38 PM »

whereas mushrooms and hemp will be the number one delicacy in Poland.

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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2013, 10:36:15 PM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)

I wasn't originally going to add any more to that, but now I think I'd like to.

If I had been brought up in neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy, I can't necessarily say that I would join Orthodoxy. I guess I would have to deliberate for a long time about which of the two great "continents", Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism (or the third, somewhat smaller, "continent", Oriental Orthodoxy) I should join or even (fake gasp) whether to join one of the minute "islands" like the PNCC.

I'm just speaking for myself, of course.
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2013, 11:46:55 AM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)

I wasn't originally going to add any more to that, but now I think I'd like to.

If I had been brought up in neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy, I can't necessarily say that I would join Orthodoxy. I guess I would have to deliberate for a long time about which of the two great "continents", Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism (or the third, somewhat smaller, "continent", Oriental Orthodoxy) I should join or even (fake gasp) whether to join one of the minute "islands" like the PNCC.

I'm just speaking for myself, of course.
Just out of curiosity, what would be the draw to joining the PNCC or another Catholic splinter group like that? I'm just wondering because, at least in my mind, the "True Church" is pretty much narrowed down to three possibilities (RC, EO, and/or OO).
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2013, 12:05:18 PM »

whereas mushrooms and hemp will be the number one delicacy in Poland.



Very lovely and disgusting all at once.
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2013, 12:14:52 PM »

What keeps them separate?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the situation of the Eastern Catholics (or specifically the Greek Catholics) is not just that we are "separated" from you Orthodox, but also that we are "united" with Rome.

If we weren't united to Rome, then you can bet that we would unite with Orthodoxy. (Or better yet, if "dual communion" were an option I would go for that. Smiley)

I wasn't originally going to add any more to that, but now I think I'd like to.

If I had been brought up in neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy, I can't necessarily say that I would join Orthodoxy. I guess I would have to deliberate for a long time about which of the two great "continents", Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism (or the third, somewhat smaller, "continent", Oriental Orthodoxy) I should join or even (fake gasp) whether to join one of the minute "islands" like the PNCC.

I'm just speaking for myself, of course.
Just out of curiosity, what would be the draw to joining the PNCC or another Catholic splinter group like that? I'm just wondering because, at least in my mind, the "True Church" is pretty much narrowed down to three possibilities (RC, EO, and/or OO).

Well, first of course keep in mind that I wouldn't leave any of those three "continents", once being a member of it (which may have already been clear in my earlier post). If I had been born instead to one of the "islands", I'm sure I would feel a strong pull toward joining one of the "continents" (notwithstanding the immense difficultly of choosing one over the other two) ... and yet somehow I can also sympathize with the idea of staying off-"continent". * I'm not sure I can explain it (which might mean that I've accomplished nothing in this post except annoying people by saying "island" and "continent"  Wink).

* Note that with "staying off-'continent' " I deliberately avoided saying "staying with the specific 'island' of one's birth". For example, if I had started out EC-USA, you can be sure I would leave it, if not for a "continent" then at least for another "island".
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« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2013, 09:43:35 PM »

I appreciate all of the contribution to my inquiry!  If someone wants, feel free to PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting something here.  I like to learn and am interested in this information.
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« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2013, 11:35:39 PM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church. 

What Catholic Churches, what Orthodox Churches, where, and when?
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2013, 01:24:31 AM »

Most Eastern Catholics omit proskemedia.
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2013, 06:28:07 AM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church. 

What Catholic Churches, ...

To piggy-back on that question, the term used here, "Eastern Catholic", often means (at least on the internet) exclusively Greek Catholics. Is that how you meant it here, Kerdy (excluding Maronites etc.)?
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2013, 06:32:05 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.
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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2013, 09:07:25 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2013, 09:40:15 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »

I have seen many posts regarding Eastern Catholics and was wondering, other than being in communion with Rome, what other differences are there between them and the Orthodox Church. 

What Catholic Churches, ...

To piggy-back on that question, the term used here, "Eastern Catholic", often means (at least on the internet) exclusively Greek Catholics. Is that how you meant it here, Kerdy (excluding Maronites etc.)?

OK. Here we have two sui-iuri Churches: Ukrainian one and the Byzantine-Slavonic (aka Neouniate). The first one uses exclusively Ukrainian and makes everything not to look like the Orthodox Church here (flat felonion, clean-shaved clergy, omophorions hanging straight, removal of proskomede, litanies etc., no infant communion, no ordinations for married). The latter is supposed to follow all practices that the Orthodox Church in Poland follows (Russian usage). On the other hand I'm aware that there are Orthodox Churches (like ACROD or UOC-USA) that might have practices exactly like the Ukrainian Catholics here. And notice, I've not even mentioned Melkites.

That means even if Kerdy means only Byzantine Catholics difference within BC Churches or EO Churches are sometimes greater than between particular BC and EO. That means his question to broad to answer and I asked to precise what Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Orthodox Churches he'd like to compare. And "where" is also important since I'm aware that even among the Ukrainian Catholics for example practices might vary between diaspora and "canonical" territories.
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2013, 08:38:33 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 09:00:27 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 10:38:02 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

You seem to be in good company -- I mean I get the impression that a lot of other people don't like the term either.

One thing, though, is that in the USA the term "Byzantine Catholic" is often used to mean just the Ruthenians. (Although perhaps it could be restored to its more general meaning.)
As a Melkite Catholic I do not particularly care for the "Greek Catholic" name. The Eastern Catholic Churches I have attended are Antiochian or Slavic. I don't think I have ever attended a Greek Church.

Good point. But at the same time, I guess I might use the term "Greek Catholic" if someone asked e.g. "So, the Melkite Church is what sort of Eastern Catholic Church exactly?" or "How is the Melkite Church different from the Maronite Church?"

Of course, after using the term "Greek Catholic", I could go on to explain that it just means that we use the Greek (Byzantine) Rite, and not that we necessarily use the Greek language or look up to the Greeks or anything -- and also how we have many things in common with the Maronites. (In much the same way that, after calling someone a "Roman-Rite Catholic", I could explain that I don't mean he/she is Italian, if there is a danger of confusion.)
If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.

Alright. I can't say I have any actual objections to calling it "the Byzantine Rite" rather "the Greek Rite" ... although somehow "Greek Catholics" comes to my mind a split second faster than "Byzantine Catholics" does ... possibly a subconscious reaction to the fact that many people use "Byzantine Catholics" to mean exclusively the Ruthenians.

 Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2013, 11:33:28 PM »

Most Eastern Catholics omit proskemedia.

Where did you get this idea?
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2013, 11:40:23 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2013, 11:46:49 PM »

If someone asked me for more details about the Melkite Church I would say that it celebrates the Byzantine Rite (i.e., the Rite of the Church of Constantinople), but I would never use the term "Greek Catholic," nor would I describe myself in that way.

And yet it is the way your Church identifies itself: Melkite Greek Catholic
http://www.pgc-lb.org/english/index.shtml
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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2013, 01:29:06 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Also, I remember someone stating it was a middle of the road between Rome and Orthodoxy.  In what way?  What keeps them from being fully Orthodox? 

This is the general direction I am going, but it seems my ignorance on the matter shows it may not be as easy a subject to discuss.
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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2013, 02:53:07 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?

No, they use the Latin rite and are subject to the Roman See. No-one but those in the much-diminished Ecumenical Patriarchate are under the Byzantine Throne and most of the Greek Catholics use Slavic liturgical traditions instead of the Greek ones. The Ruthenians calling themself Byzantine is silly as well. Perhaps they should call themselves the  Muscovite Catholic Church...
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« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2013, 03:22:31 AM »

why commune with Rome? 

They think it is important. Or there were some political motives. Or personal ones...

Quote
Also, I remember someone stating it was a middle of the road between Rome and Orthodoxy.  In what way?

They try to compromise Orthodox and non-Orthodox theology. And they do not succeed since it's impossible.

Quote
What keeps them from being fully Orthodox? 

Not being Orthodox. And communion with the non-Orthodox. That's for the start.
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« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2013, 06:23:03 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?
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« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2013, 06:26:07 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?

Both, I guess.  I suppose I find it difficult to believe a group more associated with Orthodoxy would commune with Rome for convenience.  Not only this, but what are the theological (if any) differences between them and the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2013, 07:09:26 AM »

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject as a whole.  Also, in the event I used the wrong terminology.  What I meant was those churches which I have heard are more Orthodox than Roman Catholic, yet are in communion with Rome.  Apparently, this covers more than a couple, which really makes questions difficult to answer. 

Basically, I am wondering if a church is more Orthodox in every way, why commune with Rome? 

Do you want to know:
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
or
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?

Both, I guess.  I suppose I find it difficult to believe a group more associated with Orthodoxy would commune with Rome for convenience.  Not only this, but what are the theological (if any) differences between them and the Orthodox Church.

I'll offer a couple brief answers:

For the first one
Why should an individual staying in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as opposed to leaving it and joining Orthodoxy?
quite frankly, I wouldn't feel justified in jumping ship like that. Who knows, maybe someday I'll feel differently (e.g. if I believed that Papal Supremacy was a heresy, that would certainly make a difference).

For the second,
Why does the Melkite Church continue its full communion with Rome?
(this is just a possible explanation that people could give) I think there are few* Melkites who want a change of that kind ... and even if say 60% of the Melkite Church did actually prefer not to be in communion with Rome, the fact that 40% didn't prefer that would be an important consideration.

* I say "few" because trying to put a percentage would be baseless speculation. Of course, the number 60% and 40% are purely hypothetical.
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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2013, 07:11:52 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.
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« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.
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« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2013, 08:00:42 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.

Understood.  Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2013, 08:10:10 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
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« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2013, 12:48:45 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.
Your biased 'suspicions' are not helpful in any substantive way. Some people are profoundly touched by the liturgy and its particular theology which is why there surely are some Latin rite 'converts' to the Byzantine Catholic Church. A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

However, your 'diagnosis' - that BCCs dont have the 'guts' to convert to EO or OO - fails to account for substantive issues that may keep them in Communion with Rome as opposed to EO.
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2013, 12:51:48 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
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« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2013, 12:55:36 AM »

For the record, my questions are not hooks with a hidden agenda.  I simply want to understand better.
I don't think that anyone doubts your sincerity, at least it seems to me that you have been very sincere ITT.
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« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2013, 10:29:24 PM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2013, 11:34:11 PM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.
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« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2013, 04:33:39 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
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« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2013, 10:12:29 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    

I would love to read more about how someone came to Catholicism from Orthodoxy with her beginnings being the Novus Ordo Mass. I had always guessed that Mass, in itself, would present a stumbling block to any chance of Orthodox reunion (with the Communion in the Hand, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, versus populum, etc.).

For me, learning about the construction of the Novus Ordo Missae has had the opposite effect, causing me to seriously doubt the claims of the Catholic Church. The existence of the more Traditional groups as a remnant keeps me hanging on (even though none are close to me, so I attend the Novus Ordo).

Do you have any more information to share about this person's conversion?
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« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2013, 10:58:12 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.
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« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2013, 10:10:05 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.

Good point. Although there are many things I admire about the Orthodox, they aren't exactly a model of not-being-triumphalistic-about-Catholics-and-protestants-who-convert-to-Orthodoxy (NBTACAPWCTO).
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« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2013, 04:04:04 PM »

That "icon" is horrible.

Literally placing Christ in a box.
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2013, 05:10:22 PM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
LOL. Or we know its status all too well.  Btw, there is no "Byzantine Catholic Church," sui juris or otherwise.
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« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass

Easy to throw those insults around, but what do you really mean by them? If you mean "Roman Catholics" as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholics" (as opposed to meaning "members of the Roman Communion", which ECs certainly are) then "Roman[-Rite] Catholics with a funny mass" is just being silly.

If you want to insult us without just speaking nonsense, you might change it to "Latin Catholics with a funny mass", thus implying that the EC Churches really aren't churches at all but just rites within the Latin Church. Like the Ambrosian Rite or the Bragan Rite. (We're pretty accustomed to that kind of insult  Roll Eyes ... especially those of us who participate on CAF.)

and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Depends how you mean the term "OicwR".
With the exception of some rabid traditionalists on CAF, I think most posters on there are just generally ignorant about the Byzantine Catholic Church, in particular its status as sui iuris.
LOL. Or we know its status all too well.  Btw, there is no "Byzantine Catholic Church," sui juris or otherwise.

True, there are several Byzantine Catholic Churches (all sui iuris).
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« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2013, 07:41:17 PM »

I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.
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« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2013, 01:52:13 AM »


I actually attended a service once.

I was taking an iconography class being taught in the church hall of a ByzCatholic church.

One evening everyone piled in to the church prior to class, as it was the Eve of a Feast Day.  I was double minded whether I should go or not...not wanting to do the "wrong" thing...

After some thought, I went in....and having never been in one, was amazed.

It was just like my church.  Smiley   There was an iconostas, the priest was dressed much like mine, icons looked familiar, etc.

There were some unfamiliar hymns being sung, and of course the pope was commemorated, etc.

However, if I had not known better, I would have thought I was standing in an Orthodox parish church.  That alone made me both happy and sad.  Happy that it was so close to Orthodox, and sad because it was so close to Orthodox.

1. Most American Ukrainian Orthodox are descendants of a 1930s schism of American Ukrainian Catholics so the two churches are very similar.

2. Rome has told the Ukrainian Catholics to rebyzantinize, which they've halfheartedly done.

3. That's exactly how I feel in reverse about ACROD. Once visited St Michael's, St Clair, PA, and it was heartbreaking to me; I could tell it was once Catholic. Great that they're so close to Catholic, and sad because they're so close to Catholic. Because the oldest among them were Catholic.
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« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:17 AM »

You might see this:



That's the reverse of Latinization, I guess.

Well meant but I understand the offense and I don't encourage having Westernized icons like that.
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« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2013, 01:59:23 AM »

This older Ukrainian Greek Catholic lady I know insists the only difference between her and I is that she sides with the Pope and I don't. Tongue I would say this is probably accurate for some Eastern Catholics.

That said, she regularly goes to a Latin Rite parish and her old UGCC parish that she mentions has some weird practices (i.e. they celebrate both dates for Easter, etc.).

I know people who see absolutely no difference between the two and hop from one all the time....because they are both Ukrainian.

Now THAT is sad.



I've never met anyone like that but it fits what I've been told about Carpathian Slavic religion before the schisms in America and Communism in their homeland. It wasn't strongly Catholic or Orthodox even though it was officially Catholic. It was ethnic.
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« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2013, 02:04:08 AM »

Having a Roman Catholic father and an Eastern Catholic mother, this is what I see as differences and similarities:

In many Byzantine Catholic churches, they have shortened the Liturgy. After the first litany, they might move on to the Gospel readings and then the Eucharist.   In my Orthodox church, there are 2 more litanies. Also, in the Byzantine Catholic churches, they might not have people come up to venerate the cross after every Liturgy, this seems to be reserved for special occasions where you get oil on your forehead.   Another difference is they have seemed to cut out the singing of "In Health and Salvation... God grant them many years" at the end of every Liturgy.  This also is reserved for special occasions.  In my Orthodox church, this is sung every Sunday.  

Also, in Byzantine Catholic churches in America,  you get many Roman Catholics visiting and also Roman Catholic priests who are biritual so there might be more of a blending of Roman Catholic practices into Eastern Christian ones, such as the Divine Mercy chaplet. However, this doesn't seem to be worked into the actual Liturgy, it might be a practice outside of the Liturgy.

One point I want to make is that the Byzantine Catholics are not Italian Roman Catholics who put on the cloak of Orthodoxy to trick the Orthodox into being duped into falling under the Pope's control.  They were Orthodox Slavs from the very beginning and for whatever reason went under the Pope.  So, they have the tradition of Orthodoxy and have done a pretty good job of keeping it intact in the face of modernism.

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you should just be Eastern Catholic and that there is no difference other than being under the Pope.  There is a difference is theology between the East and West.  However, that is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint.   The Eastern Catholic viewpoint does put their focus on the theology of the East, Christian mysticism and on Patristics.

 

Most of this is a pretty good summary of the differences in practice. But the blending of Western Catholic practices wasn't because of Roman Rite visitors but from the Slavic Greek Catholics themselves.

Why would the last bother you? Like Orthodoxy, Catholicism says it's the true church so of course it encourages those considering leaving for Orthodoxy to go Greek Catholic: same faith, different theological school of thought and different rite, to show the Orthodox it's possible.
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« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2013, 02:06:10 AM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you such just be Eastern Catholic 

Sounds familiar. I was always disturbed by advice like that. Not to mention that there is no EC parishes in my country except for some role-playing Latins.

The tiny Russian Catholic Church is like that: born Latins who love everything Russian Orthodox but want to remain Catholic, so they're more Orthodox than the Slavic Greek Catholics. As are the Roman Rite converts to the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches, including priests trained in Rome.
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2013, 02:07:29 AM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.

They're fading fast in America; might go out of business.
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2013, 02:08:04 AM »

I thought the Netherlands was a Calvinist country. Emphasis on "was" though.

I imagine there is a decent population of Dutch Reformed. I've met some here in the US.

Yep, I was baptised one. Over here there are two different flavors of Reformed - Dutch Reformed and "Gereformeerd". Both have subdenominations. And then there are of course the Latins but you won't get them more any liberal than over here. There are no Eastern Catholics except for some Latins who admit on their very website that they only differ from the other Latins because they have a funny mass and that it's basically just a hobby. There are Orthodox parishes in some of the big cities, though, but none in mine.

It seems I have derailed this thread a little bit  Smiley


What's Gereformeerd?
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« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2013, 02:15:14 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.
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« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2013, 02:19:48 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    

I would love to read more about how someone came to Catholicism from Orthodoxy with her beginnings being the Novus Ordo Mass. I had always guessed that Mass, in itself, would present a stumbling block to any chance of Orthodox reunion (with the Communion in the Hand, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, versus populum, etc.).

For me, learning about the construction of the Novus Ordo Missae has had the opposite effect, causing me to seriously doubt the claims of the Catholic Church. The existence of the more Traditional groups as a remnant keeps me hanging on (even though none are close to me, so I attend the Novus Ordo).

Do you have any more information to share about this person's conversion?

I can see a reverent Novus Ordo turning someone Catholicwards but agree with you about Novus. I almost never go to it. That said, Pope Benedict's reform of it in English means it gives me no conscience problems, unlike the old English paraphrase. It's just inferior and annoying.
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2013, 02:23:02 AM »

A woman I knew was Russian Orthodox, straight from the homeland, with an MA in liturgy and the beginning of her conversion to Catholicism was a reverent Novus Ordo mass.

Just a thought: that statement struck me as very odd ... the beginning of someone's departure from Orthodoxy being attendance at a reverent non-Orthodox liturgy. (I realize there's probably a lot more to the story of course.)
The beginning of the investigation and siding with certain theological points came first, but attending the mass is what began to win her over.

Well, I'd like to think that it's not a matter of winning, but rather of ending, the war against the Orthodox ... but I'll admit that my "likes" are probably a little bit disconnected from the reality on the ground.    
Agreed :-). I don't look at it as a matter of 'winning' either. After I mentioned how surely some RCs convert to BC or EO after attending a Divine Liturgy, I thought I would counter balance it with a personal example of a woman I knew.

Good point. Although there are many things I admire about the Orthodox, they aren't exactly a model of not-being-triumphalistic-about-Catholics-and-protestants-who-convert-to-Orthodoxy (NBTACAPWCTO).

Of course I appreciate the true-church claim, just like the Russian bishops weren't offended when Pope Benedict repeated it, but yeah, that is kind of pathetic. Understandable when the reality is they're tiny churches in America losing people like crazy because the ethnics leave when they assimilate, and most of the few converts are because of marriage.
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« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »

One thing that does bother me is when Roman Catholics think that if you are interested in Orthodoxy that you should just be Eastern Catholic and that there is no difference other than being under the Pope.  There is a difference is theology between the East and West.  However, that is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint.   The Eastern Catholic viewpoint does put their focus on the theology of the East, Christian mysticism and on Patristics.
...

Why would the last bother you? Like Orthodoxy, Catholicism says it's the true church so of course it encourages those considering leaving for Orthodoxy to go Greek Catholic: same faith, different theological school of thought and different rite, to show the Orthodox it's possible.

I don't want to blanketly criticize; but in my experience some of those why-don't-you-go-EC type conversations are quite triumphalistic.
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« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2013, 08:16:18 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.

You make some good criticisms of "OicwR". But I can't help observing that, just before that, you construct a pretty good apology for them: if what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do is to be "entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine" (and I admit I can't confidently say that it isn't), otherwise known as being an "oreo", is it any wonder that they don't comply?
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« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.
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« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2013, 09:06:22 AM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.

Sorry for weighing in two months late but my father had a different understanding behind removing the label "Greek Catholic" from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic eparchy. First, no one identified as a Ruthenian, most folks erroneously referred to themselves as "Slavish" or Russian - those wouldn't do. More importantly, the legal claim asserted in a number of court cases that the term "Greek Catholic" was proprietary to the Pittsburgh Eparchy was not upheld in some property disputes, including four major ACROD congregations who retained their buildings, despite being chartered congregationally (a bishop was not the sole trustee)as Greek Catholic. These were St John in Ambridge, Pa, St. Michael in Rankin, Pa, St John in Perth Amboy, NJ and St Michael in Binghamton, NY.  The final straw came around 1950 when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rejected the Eparchy's proprietary claim of the name Greek Catholic in a case involving the Eparchy' s cathedral in Munhall, PA (they retained the Church on other grounds) and the home parish of Andy Warhol, St. John Chrysostom in "Rus'ka Dolina" Pittsburgh. The change to BCC created a clear distinction between the Eastern Catholic parishes and the Orthodox in ACROD ( Carparltho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic) and the Metropolia ( Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic). Of course today most Acrod parishes id as "St.-----Orthodox" and pretty much all OCA id as solely Orthodox as well.

You have to remember the context of mid century America, in the "Rust Belt" neighborhoods, towns and villages typically had three and even four small congregations , all founded by blood relatives of the others, representing the various faiths, jurisdictions and - family disputes.
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« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2013, 09:07:29 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

That is the inherent conundrum of forcing a square peg into a round hole.
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« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2013, 09:19:17 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?
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« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2013, 09:26:33 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church. Is the objectionable thing to you a nasty triumphalism or simply Catholicism's true-church claim vs. Orthodoxy's?

Is Orthodox practice reconcilable with Catholic doctrine or are Orthodox-style Greek Catholics fakes, Oreos? Here the two sides disagree. If you agree with the Orthodox and OicwRs, you're no longer really Catholic. I'm sorry but wish you well and hope you find what you're looking for.

Thomism is almost synonymous with Catholicism but just like Catholics don't have to be ultramontane or Roman Rite, they don't have to be Thomists. Palamas may have been nastily anti-Catholic for all I know but born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt. I've never known a Slavic Greek Catholic who knew or cared who he was; I think the very Orthodox-style Melkite Church venerates him.

Orthodox-style Greek Catholics: Melkites, Russian Catholics (born Roman Riters), many of the few born Roman Riters in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholic churches, and Greek Catholic priests trained in Rome. The rest, the ethnic Ukrainians and Ruthenians, are essentially nice ethnic cultural-conservative Roman Riters with a different Mass. (The old po-nashomu inter-ritual mix but now with a hardened Catholic identity since the American schisms and Communism in Europe.)

I'm against any program to latinize Eastern Christians, because their practice is already Catholic. That said, as an outsider it seems to me that, although the Greeks have never hellenized ACROD, in recent decades as our ex-Protestant host American culture's become more anti-Catholic, the reverse of the Greek Catholics' self-latinization has happened in ACROD. That and Orthodox anti-Westernism feed off each other. ACROD's now a bit ashamed of its Catholic heritage; it wasn't before, even though it always was mad at the Catholics, understandably. So a church created to preserve po-nashomu religion 'as is' (they wanted things to stay the same, very conservative, very Slavic) ended up no longer being that but a kind of ersatz Greek Orthodoxy with different music, rather like the Metropolia/OCA Ruthenians, most American Russian Orthodox, are now ersatz Russians. Both are now self-consciously Orthodox just like the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics are now self-consciously Catholic and happily self-latinized.

Right, the departing Greek Catholic parishes, in both the Toth and Chornock splits, kept those words in their names partly for the po-nashomu reason – in the old country, Greek Catholic was their only faith, and to them at the time, it didn't necessarily mean under Rome; they didn't care that much about that – and partly for the legal reason that it helped when they were taking and keeping their property from the Catholic Church. Not really because of Orthodoxy's boast of being the real Catholic Church, nor because they really missed the Catholic Church. The term is still in ACROD's official name as far as I know, the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese of America or of the USA. Likewise, for decades, from the Toth split until autocephaly in 1970, the American Russian Orthodox' official name was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America or of the USA. Because most American Russian Orthodox are originally po-nashomu Slavish, not from Russia.
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« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctine.
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« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2013, 09:31:16 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctrine.

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.
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« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2013, 09:32:27 AM »

I *suspect* that most Eastern Catholics, especially the cradles, are Roman Catholics with a funny mass and that the OicwR types are "converts" from the Latin Rite who don't have the guts (yet) to go all the way.

Fair description of cradle Eastern Catholics.

As for the Orthodox-style converts from the Roman Rite, you have to distinguish between two types who superficially look alike: the ones who are doing exactly what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do, be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine, and on the other hand the OicwRs ('Orthodox in communion with Rome'), or as I call them, pseudo-Orthodox Catholic dissenters, who are nominally Catholic but thumb their noses at Catholic teaching while saying they agree with the Orthodox yet don't join. They're really looking down on both churches. There are a number of the former who get fed up with the latinizations from the cradles and the second-class treatment from the Roman Riters so they briefly pass through OicwR before becoming Orthodox, and most OicwRs soon convert too; only makes sense for the latter.

You make some good criticisms of "OicwR". But I can't help observing that, just before that, you construct a pretty good apology for them: if what Rome wants Greek Catholics to do is to be "entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine" (and I admit I can't confidently say that it isn't), otherwise known as being an "oreo", is it any wonder that they don't comply?

The "oreo" concept is the Disneyland re-creation of eastern Christianity to which Fr. Taft and others rightly object. Orthodox practice and ritual are intrinsically linked to Orthodox doctrine. To us, especially those of us coming from a formerly Greek Catholic  background, this is why Rome's concept of "sui juris" churches in union with Rome on Rome's terms is, in the end, unworkable. I say that with a sense of sadness as I am well aware of the piety, loyalty and sacrifices made by the Greek Catholics in Europe during the 20th century, but that does not obscure the  inherent problem with the models of the post Florence unions.
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« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2013, 09:36:13 AM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctrine.

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

What the (Ecumenical) Council of Vienne decreed seems to me to be a better source on Catholic doctrine than what Catholic Bob from 5th Avenue has to say.

Quite sad that you always try to dismiss my arguments by calling me 'convertodox' or other such terms when it is clear to everyone who read at least five of my posts that I am not in any way convertodox, hyperdox or whatever.
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« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2013, 09:37:44 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate , it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.
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« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2013, 09:40:30 AM »

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

I wonder what an ethnic American Catholic would say about abortion and contraception. Wink
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« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2013, 09:42:20 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.
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« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2013, 09:43:23 AM »

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist.

You have never been to Greece.
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« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2013, 09:48:54 AM »

Right, I've never been. I was referring to ethnic hyperdox Americans. The immigrant paradox is interesting. They seem foreign here but Americanized to the people back home. Maybe that's what happened in this instance.
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« Reply #106 on: June 26, 2013, 09:53:23 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.

You miss my point.

Eastern Catholics should not and do not view their practices as  faux imitation of the real deal like Disney's Epcot. Nor do I.

If, however, Roman Caholics view the eastern Church as just another group like "us" of one accord with all of the symbolic expressions of belief embedded in Roman Catholicism but using different books,hymns, "hats" and "costumes", well - that's the problem, and a problem recognized by many Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #107 on: June 26, 2013, 10:01:45 AM »

'Sir, we had to destroy the village to save it.' From our point of view, going into schism to save a culture is making an idol of that culture, however good that culture is, and again, ironically, ACROD is no longer that culture. As the succeeding generations are less ethnic, they'll keep going down. To be fair, the American Greek Catholics are losing people similarly.

Catholicism sees Orthodox as having real bishops, a real Mass and real apostolic authority.

Orthodox are allowed to see Greek Catholics as a Disneyland performance of real religion, not real religion.

That's why I'm Catholic.

Ethnic hyperdox are relatively rare but they exist. I've met one, the son of WWII refugees. Insufferable. Ironically, he went sectarian (the true church met in his basement chapel) when the local Metropolia/OCA parish wasn't good enough for him anymore (they wouldn't let him order them around anymore) while his Russian parents, 'the real thing', still go there as far as I know.

Almost all American Catholics know the church is against contraception and abortion, especially since the media publicize it. Even if they side with society vs. the church, they know.

You miss my point.

Eastern Catholics should not and do not view their practices as  faux imitation of the real deal like Disney's Epcot. Nor do I.

If, however, Roman Caholics view the eastern Church as just another group like "us" of one accord with all of the symbolic expressions of belief embedded in Roman Catholicism but using different books,hymns, "hats" and "costumes", well - that's the problem, and a problem recognized by many Eastern Catholics.

Once I was with an enthusiastic Catholic convert when a third person asked who Byzantine Catholics were, and I explained that they worship like the Orthodox but are Catholic, and Mr. Convert said, 'No, the Orthodox worship like us!' Of course I believe the true-church claim he was trying to defend, but that is one of the dumbest things I've heard. Triumphalism. Better the Roman Rite converts in the Russian Catholic Church: 'We have a patriarch and other bishops, only right now they're not Catholic.'

Again, enthusiastic Orthodox-style Greek Catholics and OicwRs look awfully alike. But they're not. If you don't accept the symbolical expressions of Catholicism, you should in good conscience go somewhere else.
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« Reply #108 on: June 26, 2013, 10:05:15 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?
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« Reply #109 on: June 26, 2013, 10:11:47 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.
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« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2013, 10:13:30 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.
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« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2013, 10:14:59 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable
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« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2013, 10:16:39 AM »

Correction: 'Energies, not essence', said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.
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« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2013, 10:17:51 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.
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« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2013, 10:19:58 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.
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« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2013, 10:21:05 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.
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« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2013, 10:21:37 AM »

Correction: 'Energies, not essence', said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

I doubt that. But the Fifth Council of Constantinople would be just as valid even if no "ethnic" American Orthodox layman ever mentioned Palamas or a distinction between essence and energies. You should really come with better arguments because now you're contradicting yourself. Either dogma is important or it isn't. You seem to bewail Anglicanism and their changing doctrines all the time but you yourself make the dogmas of the Church dependent on what some laymen may or may not say.
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« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2013, 10:23:27 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

The Synodicon of Orthodoxy, which is part of the Byzantine Rite, condemns the adversaries of Palamism. The "Fifteenth Ecumenical Council" opposed Palamism. Don't you see the irony of the Byzantine Catholics and how they can impossibly be "Orthodox in worship, Catholic in faith". Lex orandi, lex credendi.
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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2013, 10:27:26 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

'Palamism' is like the 'war' between the Franciscans and the Jesuits.
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« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2013, 10:29:22 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

What on earth are you talking about? What did I say about your heritage or true Christianity? I only claimed that the Byzantine Rite is incompatible with Roman Catholicism and its dogmas.

And Palamism is but one of the examples. Palamism can hardly be reduced to a triviality.
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« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2013, 10:35:14 AM »

You're absolutely right. I'm going to publicly declare my heritage is a fraud, that I never knew true Christianity until somebody on the Internet explained it to me (because you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true; bonjour), and I will spend the rest of my life denouncing my heritage in Internet fora. Please.

What on earth are you talking about? What did I say about your heritage or true Christianity? I only claimed that the Byzantine Rite is incompatible with Roman Catholicism and its dogmas.

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

And Palamism is but one of the examples. Palamism can hardly be reduced to a triviality.

History and the experience of people in both churches prove that wrong. Just like the EO/OO fight may well be a big nothing.
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« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2013, 10:46:27 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

Again, it is NOT just the Melkites.  Please direct your attention to February 17 and 24, 2013.

http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/2013-liturgical-calendar
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« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2013, 10:50:03 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."
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« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

Yeah, I'm a hypocrite who makes up his own religion. Bang, you got me.  Roll Eyes

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

Again, it is NOT just the Melkites.  Please direct your attention to February 17 and 24, 2013.

http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/2013-liturgical-calendar

Most Slavic Greek Catholics don't know or care who Palamas was and would want to punch you in the nose if you called them Orthodox.
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« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)
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« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2013, 10:53:56 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."

I don't follow you. Are you saying the pre-'Reformation' churches' unanimous opposition to the attempted ordination of women and to same-sex pseudo-marriage is wrong?
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« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2013, 10:56:23 AM »

P.S. Another good example:

Once I was with an enthusiastic Catholic convert when a third person asked who Byzantine Catholics were, and I explained that they worship like the Orthodox but are Catholic, and Mr. Convert said, 'No, the Orthodox worship like us!'
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« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2013, 10:56:55 AM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)

My conversation with the same dumb-sounding convert:

Him: Catholics and schismatics.
Me: You mean Catholics and Orthodox?
Him: I mean Catholics and schismatics.

Right, that's just mean. Born Orthodox are not personally guilty of schism, which is why the Orthodox-style Greek Catholics, such as the Russian Catholics and the Melkites, commemorate post-schism Orthodox saints.
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« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2013, 11:03:33 AM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."

 Huh
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« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2013, 11:10:10 AM »

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

Therein lies the rub. I don't use the phrase "the benefit of the doubt" as often as you do, but I can't think a more appropriate place to use it than here.

Not only do we give the benefit of the doubt to born Orthodox (and, hopefully, they to born Catholics); we also give the benefit of the doubt to born Catholics who disagree with the pope in ways that don't necessarily rise to the level of breaking-off communion.
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« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2013, 11:21:04 AM »

Here Catholicism and Orthodoxy really disagree. The OicwRs need to pick a side and stop worshipping themselves.

Therein lies the rub. I don't use the phrase "the benefit of the doubt" as often as you do, but I can't think a more appropriate place to use it than here.

Not only do we give the benefit of the doubt to born Orthodox (and, hopefully, they to born Catholics); we also give the benefit of the doubt to born Catholics who disagree with the pope in ways that don't necessarily rise to the level of breaking-off communion.

I've read your post questioning Catholic doctrine. One of my favorite expressions is the church, including the pre-conciliar one I identify with, is not a cult; it couldn't micromanage you even if it wanted to. Lots of Catholics don't agree with the church, and the church leaves them alone. The church only bothers to condemn someone as a heretic if he's educated enough to know better, is in a position of authority and trust, and has been warned. The university isn't a catechism class; it's a debating society. That said, there's a difference between asking questions and preaching dissent online for many years. This is a powerful pulpit; many could leave the church over what somebody posts. So my line is if you arrogate to yourself the teaching role of a pastor or professor, you incur the same responsibility and consequences. In other words, the leading online OicwR's parish priest and bishop should excommunicate him, even though he's otherwise theologically and liturgically conservative. Because he's not really Catholic. Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).
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« Reply #131 on: June 26, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...
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« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Earlier in this thread:

Well ... I'm never entirely surely what to say about them; but I think the best I can say is that I see them as the "law of the land", so to speak, in the Roman Communion, but not necessarily actual dogmas.

So I guess I can't say either "They're optional" or "They're not optional" without adding additional explanation/qualifier.


Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...

Dual communion is an ecumenist fantasy of the OicwRs. It doesn't work that way. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not mainline Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians and ELCA. At the highest level, intercommunion would mean one side has given in and joined the other. Because each claims it's the true church. Not the same as ethnics, such the Syrian Melkites' and Orthodox' longtime custom, going back and forth in what's sacramentally the same, says Catholicism.

P.S. 'The Rrrroman communion.' That takes me back to my Anglican childhood. (Because sometimes they claim to be Catholic too.) Hail, Caesar!  Cheesy
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« Reply #133 on: June 26, 2013, 12:11:23 PM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Earlier in this thread:

Well ... I'm never entirely surely what to say about them; but I think the best I can say is that I see them as the "law of the land", so to speak, in the Roman Communion, but not necessarily actual dogmas.

So I guess I can't say either "They're optional" or "They're not optional" without adding additional explanation/qualifier.


OIC. Usually I can tell which post you're not quoting, but sometimes I can't. Wink

Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...

Dual communion is an ecumenist fantasy of the OicwRs. It doesn't work that way. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not mainline Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians and ELCA. At the highest level, intercommunion would mean one side has given in and joined the other. Because each claims it's the true church. Not the same as ethnics, such the Syrian Melkites' and Orthodox' longtime custom, going back and forth in what's sacramentally the same, says Catholicism.

In any case, I do have to fault myself for loose us of the term "dual communion".
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« Reply #134 on: June 26, 2013, 12:25:41 PM »

Sure, some Catholics are ignorant and/or jerks, including about the Orthodox, maybe not up to date about giving born Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, or, allowable, believing something like Leonard Feeney about them. But we're discussing talking someone out of leaving the Catholic Church.

Right. And like I said, I don't offer a blanket criticism. However, I do believe that, often enough, Catholics have the attitude that Orthodox has nothing going for it, like the old song line "Anything you can do, I can do better". (I'm reminded of a conversation with an LC priest, 7ish years ago. I forget what he said, except that he said some about the Orthodox ... then after the word "Orthodox" he stopped and added "I mean the schismatic Orthodox", as though calling them "the Orthodox" were a slip.)

My conversation with the same dumb-sounding convert:

Him: Catholics and schismatics.
Me: You mean Catholics and Orthodox?
Him: I mean Catholics and schismatics.

Right, that's just mean. Born Orthodox are not personally guilty of schism, which is why the Orthodox-style Greek Catholics, such as the Russian Catholics and the Melkites, commemorate post-schism Orthodox saints.
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« Reply #135 on: June 26, 2013, 12:27:41 PM »

Except ex-Catholics such as Toth and those who were fervently anti-Catholic.
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« Reply #136 on: June 26, 2013, 12:31:45 PM »

Except ex-Catholics such as Toth and those who were fervently anti-Catholic.
St Alexis was fervently pro-Catholic.  Read the scroll.

On that note:
Quote
I still remember the first time I read about St. Alexis back about 1993. I had recently started attending a Byzantine Catholic parish and discovered a series of pages on the Catholic Information Network that covered some of the early history of the Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA. Even though I had no thought then of entering Orthodoxy, I immediately had a feeling of indignation upon reading of how he (and other Eastern Catholics) were treated by the Latin Rite Bishops and clergy during that era.

As I discussed his story with other Byzantine Catholics after St. Alexis’ glorification in 1994, I discovered that some Byzantine Catholics were sympathetic to him and a few even obtained icons of him. Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners and I’ve been told his icon even graces a few Byzantine Catholic parishes (though usually where it is not easily seen). I’ve even heard him commemorated once at a Byzantine Catholic service of Great Vespers.
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/st-alexis-of-wilkes-barre-pray-to-god-for-us/
And from the Catholic Disinformaton Service
Quote
On balance, however, I am of the opinion that the Archbishop was far more in the wrong, and over far more substantial matters, than was Father Toth. That said, I should also state that the Archbishop's errors should in no way have permitted Father Toth to justify to himself his apostasy to the Church]
http://www.cin.org/clash13.html
What St. Alexis was "wrong" about is not specified.  What is was wrong on was placing false hope in the Vatican.  Nothing more.
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« Reply #137 on: June 26, 2013, 12:40:13 PM »

Except ex-Catholics such as Toth and those who were fervently anti-Catholic.
St Alexis was fervently pro-Catholic.  Read the scroll.

On that note:
Quote
I still remember the first time I read about St. Alexis back about 1993. I had recently started attending a Byzantine Catholic parish and discovered a series of pages on the Catholic Information Network that covered some of the early history of the Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA. Even though I had no thought then of entering Orthodoxy, I immediately had a feeling of indignation upon reading of how he (and other Eastern Catholics) were treated by the Latin Rite Bishops and clergy during that era.

As I discussed his story with other Byzantine Catholics after St. Alexis’ glorification in 1994, I discovered that some Byzantine Catholics were sympathetic to him and a few even obtained icons of him. Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners and I’ve been told his icon even graces a few Byzantine Catholic parishes (though usually where it is not easily seen). I’ve even heard him commemorated once at a Byzantine Catholic service of Great Vespers.
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/st-alexis-of-wilkes-barre-pray-to-god-for-us/
And from the Catholic Disinformaton Service
Quote
On balance, however, I am of the opinion that the Archbishop was far more in the wrong, and over far more substantial matters, than was Father Toth. That said, I should also state that the Archbishop's errors should in no way have permitted Father Toth to justify to himself his apostasy to the Church]
http://www.cin.org/clash13.html
What St. Alexis was "wrong" about is not specified.  What is was wrong on was placing false hope in the Vatican.  Nothing more.

Oh, right, the semantic game. No, thanks.

Again I never make excuses for John Ireland. He started it.

Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners.

A definite minority all right. I'd bet you a pierogi platter that next to none of them have last names ending in -sky, -ko, or -uk.

And how many American Greek Catholics and American Orthodox outside convert-land have icon corners? (Not that icon corners are bad. Not at all.) Like Westerners, not every Easterner is devout. Lots of Orthodox only see icons in church, when they happen to go there (for family events, etc.).
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« Reply #138 on: June 26, 2013, 01:58:51 PM »

And from the Catholic Disinformaton Service
Quote
On balance, however, I am of the opinion that the Archbishop was far more in the wrong, and over far more substantial matters, than was Father Toth. That said, I should also state that the Archbishop's errors should in no way have permitted Father Toth to justify to himself his apostasy to the Church]
http://www.cin.org/clash13.html
What St. Alexis was "wrong" about is not specified.  What is was wrong on was placing false hope in the Vatican.  Nothing more.

Again I never make excuses for John Ireland. He started it.

Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners.

A definite minority all right. I'd bet you a pierogi platter that next to none of them have last names ending in -sky, -ko, or -uk.

Possibly. Nevertheless, I think I have more respect for those Catholics who have icons of him, than those Catholics who call his action "apostasy".
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« Reply #139 on: June 26, 2013, 02:01:35 PM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.

And, to my chagrin, absent your tendency to the hyperbolic, I agree with much of what you say regarding SOME of the "major" theological distinctions between us which have been cemented by centuries of apologists, heated polemics, geopolitics etc.. but in the end just as location, location and location are the three key selling points for real estate, it is the problems presented by the papacy (universal jurisdiction), the papacy (infallibility) and the papacy (as the Vicar of Christ) which places us apart at the edge of a very narrow, yet very deep divide.

It doesn't hurt to talk though and to respect each other and to acknowledge the vastness of the Patristic tradition entrusted to our mutual care.

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage. Catholics don't have to be ultramontane, something Greek Catholics should be teaching the Orthodox. But the OicwRs err in the other direction: 'Why My Reading of the Fathers Is Right and the Catholic Church Is Wrong.' At the end of the day it's mirror worship.


Wrong. Celibacy is NOT doctrine, only a discipline. If you disagree, then the Unions of Brest, Ungvar and the Anglican Ordinariate are heresies.

Please read more carefully. I wrote only MALE priests. I'm not some ignorant strawman Catholic who thinks celibacy's doctrine.

Wow. This coming from the guy who refers to Fr. Robert Taft as a "sophist"?"

But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable just like the Trinity, only male priests and only male-female marriage."

I don't follow you. Are you saying the pre-'Reformation' churches' unanimous opposition to the attempted ordination of women and to same-sex pseudo-marriage is wrong?

Of course not. But you wrote that, I did not. You placed " only male priests" in the same category of "Catholic defined doctrine"  as the Trinity and sacramental marriage. How is one supposed to read that? It seems to me your intent there is clear and unambiguous. If you did not mean that, please correct yourself.
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« Reply #140 on: June 26, 2013, 02:07:01 PM »

And from the Catholic Disinformaton Service
Quote
On balance, however, I am of the opinion that the Archbishop was far more in the wrong, and over far more substantial matters, than was Father Toth. That said, I should also state that the Archbishop's errors should in no way have permitted Father Toth to justify to himself his apostasy to the Church]
http://www.cin.org/clash13.html
What St. Alexis was "wrong" about is not specified.  What is was wrong on was placing false hope in the Vatican.  Nothing more.

Again I never make excuses for John Ireland. He started it.

Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners.

A definite minority all right. I'd bet you a pierogi platter that next to none of them have last names ending in -sky, -ko, or -uk.

Possibly. Nevertheless, I think I have more respect for those Catholics who have icons of him, than those Catholics who call his action "apostasy".

More Orthodox folks than Fogey would imagine regard Blessed John Paul 2 as a venerable for his fight against Soviet hegemony and many, including churches, have icons including 20th century  martyrs like Blessed Pavel Goidich and  Teodor Rhomza. Unlike the canonical rigidity of Romanism we try not to codify all things. 
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« Reply #141 on: June 26, 2013, 02:17:35 PM »

Except ex-Catholics such as Toth and those who were fervently anti-Catholic.
St Alexis was fervently pro-Catholic.  Read the scroll.

On that note:
Quote
I still remember the first time I read about St. Alexis back about 1993. I had recently started attending a Byzantine Catholic parish and discovered a series of pages on the Catholic Information Network that covered some of the early history of the Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA. Even though I had no thought then of entering Orthodoxy, I immediately had a feeling of indignation upon reading of how he (and other Eastern Catholics) were treated by the Latin Rite Bishops and clergy during that era.

As I discussed his story with other Byzantine Catholics after St. Alexis’ glorification in 1994, I discovered that some Byzantine Catholics were sympathetic to him and a few even obtained icons of him. Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners and I’ve been told his icon even graces a few Byzantine Catholic parishes (though usually where it is not easily seen). I’ve even heard him commemorated once at a Byzantine Catholic service of Great Vespers.
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/st-alexis-of-wilkes-barre-pray-to-god-for-us/
And from the Catholic Disinformaton Service
Quote
On balance, however, I am of the opinion that the Archbishop was far more in the wrong, and over far more substantial matters, than was Father Toth. That said, I should also state that the Archbishop's errors should in no way have permitted Father Toth to justify to himself his apostasy to the Church]
http://www.cin.org/clash13.html
What St. Alexis was "wrong" about is not specified.  What is was wrong on was placing false hope in the Vatican.  Nothing more.

Oh, right, the semantic game. No, thanks.

Again I never make excuses for John Ireland. He started it.

Though these are a definite minority within Byzantine Catholicism, St. Alexis’ icon hangs in many Byzantine Catholic home icon corners.

A definite minority all right. I'd bet you a pierogi platter that next to none of them have last names ending in -sky, -ko, or -uk.

And how many American Greek Catholics and American Orthodox outside convert-land have icon corners? (Not that icon corners are bad. Not at all.)

then why are you bi---complaining about it?
Like Westerners, not every Easterner is devout. Lots of Orthodox only see icons in church, when they happen to go there (for family events, etc.).
your point, or did you not have one?

I've known "Byzantines" who came from the home turf, and were devout enough to go to their "sui juris" parish every Sunday, and demand their children marry in, but their only icons, if they had them, was the kitchen calendar.  I've know Orthodox from the "homecountries" who only went for family events, and were rather secular, but had plenty of icons around the house.
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« Reply #142 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:05 PM »

A definite minority all right. I'd bet you a pierogi platter that next to none of them have last names ending in -sky, -ko, or -uk.

And how many American Greek Catholics and American Orthodox outside convert-land have icon corners? (Not that icon corners are bad. Not at all.)

then why are you bi---complaining about it?

Rabbi Goldberg: Mr Griffin, I still don't understand. Why exactly does your son want to join the Jewish faith?
Peter: I dunno, he's bicurious.
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« Reply #143 on: June 26, 2013, 03:03:52 PM »

Alright, but honestly I don't know which of my posts you mean.

Ditto Rome regarding the odd Melkite clergyman who preaches such relativistic nonsense (Catholicism's not the true church, I don't have to believe in post-schism Catholic doctrine).

That's where we get into "dual communion" type questions ...

P.S. On second thought, that response was fairly weak. It's more of "line item veto" question. I.e. does the pope have the right to say (for example) "I'll be in communion with the Melkite patriarchate, but not so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so, ... "
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« Reply #144 on: June 26, 2013, 04:13:29 PM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctine.
To my knowledge there is no dogma prohibiting this in the RCC.....
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« Reply #145 on: June 27, 2013, 02:20:13 PM »

Fogey, what are your thoughts about how St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism are commemorated in the Byzantine Rite while a real and ontological distinction is anathematised by the Council of Vienne, which the Roman Catholics call the Fifteenth Ecumenical Council?

I think it's an Orthodox fanboy obsession most Catholics, including me, and most Orthodox don't give a rip about.

Doctrine is unimportant? But two seconds ago you said:

I agree! But Catholic defined doctrine is a non-negotiable

That the Catholic Church allows the Melkites to commemorate Palamas answers your question. As a born Orthodox he gets the benefit of the doubt. Much like how the EO/OO fight is now seen as a misunderstanding.

The Synodicon of Orthodoxy, which is part of the Byzantine Rite, condemns the adversaries of Palamism. The "Fifteenth Ecumenical Council" opposed Palamism. Don't you see the irony of the Byzantine Catholics and how they can impossibly be "Orthodox in worship, Catholic in faith". Lex orandi, lex credendi.

The councils that are commonly referred to (among Catholics) as Ecumenical Councils #9 through #16, were consistently called General Councils until the mid-16th century. I believe we should return to that practice.
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« Reply #146 on: June 27, 2013, 02:22:38 PM »

be entirely Orthodox in practice but entirely Catholic in doctrine

But that only begs the question of whether everything in the Byzantine Rite is in agreement with Roman Catholic dogma. Among others the liturgical commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas is remarkable, since Palamism stands in opposition to Thomism and RC dogma.

In what way Palamism is different from, say, Papist's signature?

A real, ontological distinction between essence and energies. Such a thing is incompatible with RC doctrine.

I'm just a dumb papist but that fight seems like a convertodox fanboy fantasy. 'Essence vs. energies is wrong' said no ethnic American Orthodox layman ever.

What the (Ecumenical) Council of Vienne decreed seems to me to be a better source on Catholic doctrine than what Catholic Bob from 5th Avenue has to say.

Quite sad that you always try to dismiss my arguments by calling me 'convertodox' or other such terms when it is clear to everyone who read at least five of my posts that I am not in any way convertodox, hyperdox or whatever.

I think "convertodox" is a real problem (even if you personally aren't one of them).
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« Reply #147 on: June 27, 2013, 05:48:43 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.

Sorry for weighing in two months late but my father had a different understanding behind removing the label "Greek Catholic" from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic eparchy. First, no one identified as a Ruthenian, most folks erroneously referred to themselves as "Slavish" or Russian - those wouldn't do. More importantly, the legal claim asserted in a number of court cases that the term "Greek Catholic" was proprietary to the Pittsburgh Eparchy was not upheld in some property disputes, including four major ACROD congregations who retained their buildings, despite being chartered congregationally (a bishop was not the sole trustee)as Greek Catholic. These were St John in Ambridge, Pa, St. Michael in Rankin, Pa, St John in Perth Amboy, NJ and St Michael in Binghamton, NY.  The final straw came around 1950 when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rejected the Eparchy's proprietary claim of the name Greek Catholic in a case involving the Eparchy' s cathedral in Munhall, PA (they retained the Church on other grounds) and the home parish of Andy Warhol, St. John Chrysostom in "Rus'ka Dolina" Pittsburgh. The change to BCC created a clear distinction between the Eastern Catholic parishes and the Orthodox in ACROD ( Carparltho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic) and the Metropolia ( Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic). Of course today most Acrod parishes id as "St.-----Orthodox" and pretty much all OCA id as solely Orthodox as well.

You have to remember the context of mid century America, in the "Rust Belt" neighborhoods, towns and villages typically had three and even four small congregations , all founded by blood relatives of the others, representing the various faiths, jurisdictions and - family disputes.
The lawsuits were certainly part of it, but greater in the mind of Archbishop Nicholas, who prescribed the change, was to de-ethnicize  I think.
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« Reply #148 on: June 27, 2013, 06:22:16 PM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.
Indeed, he was added back to the Anthologion and the Metropolitan Cantor Institute set his texts to our plain chant.
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« Reply #149 on: June 27, 2013, 08:47:37 PM »

I think the term "Greek Catholic" is silly. Almost none of the "Greek Catholic" Churches are ethnic Greek or even use Greek as the main language of the liturgy.

Is Roman or Latin Catholic silly?  The Greek in Greek Catholic is refering to the Greek (Byzantine) Rite not ethnicity or language.  This is the reason, however, Ruthenian Greek Catholics started using the name Byzantine Catholic.

Sorry for weighing in two months late but my father had a different understanding behind removing the label "Greek Catholic" from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic eparchy. First, no one identified as a Ruthenian, most folks erroneously referred to themselves as "Slavish" or Russian - those wouldn't do. More importantly, the legal claim asserted in a number of court cases that the term "Greek Catholic" was proprietary to the Pittsburgh Eparchy was not upheld in some property disputes, including four major ACROD congregations who retained their buildings, despite being chartered congregationally (a bishop was not the sole trustee)as Greek Catholic. These were St John in Ambridge, Pa, St. Michael in Rankin, Pa, St John in Perth Amboy, NJ and St Michael in Binghamton, NY.  The final straw came around 1950 when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rejected the Eparchy's proprietary claim of the name Greek Catholic in a case involving the Eparchy' s cathedral in Munhall, PA (they retained the Church on other grounds) and the home parish of Andy Warhol, St. John Chrysostom in "Rus'ka Dolina" Pittsburgh. The change to BCC created a clear distinction between the Eastern Catholic parishes and the Orthodox in ACROD ( Carparltho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic) and the Metropolia ( Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic). Of course today most Acrod parishes id as "St.-----Orthodox" and pretty much all OCA id as solely Orthodox as well.

You have to remember the context of mid century America, in the "Rust Belt" neighborhoods, towns and villages typically had three and even four small congregations , all founded by blood relatives of the others, representing the various faiths, jurisdictions and - family disputes.
The lawsuits were certainly part of it, but greater in the mind of Archbishop Nicholas, who prescribed the change, was to de-ethnicize  I think.

I suspect you are correct. The Archbishop was driven, they say, to create a distinction between the murky Greek Catholic past and the new, clearly subject to the Pope,  BCC. In the end Vatican 2 got in the way and Rome was no longer impressed. But I doubt this interests anyone here but you and me so we will  have to discuss it over a few beers some day.  Wink
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« Reply #150 on: June 27, 2013, 09:32:37 PM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.
Indeed, he was added back to the Anthologion and the Metropolitan Cantor Institute set his texts to our plain chant.
What was the Second Sunday of Lent before St. Gregory made his return among the Ruthenians?
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« Reply #151 on: June 27, 2013, 09:57:32 PM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.
Indeed, he was added back to the Anthologion and the Metropolitan Cantor Institute set his texts to our plain chant.
What was the Second Sunday of Lent before St. Gregory made his return among the Ruthenians?

I'll dig out the old 1933  Slavonic Velikyj Zbornik in the morning and see if I remember enough to figure it out.
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« Reply #152 on: June 27, 2013, 10:22:09 PM »

Fogey, I believe the current Byzantine Catholic Triodon follows that of the Slavic Orthodox, including the commemoration of St Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of Lent. The old, pre war Typicons and Sluzebniks printed in L'viv, Presov or Ungvar did not. Deacon Lance can correct me if I am wrong.
Indeed, he was added back to the Anthologion and the Metropolitan Cantor Institute set his texts to our plain chant.
What was the Second Sunday of Lent before St. Gregory made his return among the Ruthenians?
Sunday of the Paralytic after the Gospel of the day.
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« Reply #153 on: June 27, 2013, 11:02:19 PM »

What was the Second Sunday of Lent before St. Gregory made his return among the Ruthenians?
Sunday of the Paralytic after the Gospel of the day.

That's what it is for us too! 
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« Reply #154 on: June 27, 2013, 11:11:54 PM »

What was the Second Sunday of Lent before St. Gregory made his return among the Ruthenians?
Sunday of the Paralytic after the Gospel of the day.

That's what it is for us too! 
Do you have St Polycarp that Sunday as well?  That is who was there before St. Gregory for us.
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« Reply #155 on: June 27, 2013, 11:18:58 PM »

No, St Polycarp has the feast day assigned in the calendar, but not a Sunday.  Generally, we don't commemorate saints' days on Sundays (unless it's something big like SS Peter and Paul).  During Great Lent, there are no saints' days commemorated on the weekdays, since the Liturgy cannot be celebrated, and so the rubrics allow for their celebration on the nearest Sunday if the nearest Saturday is not convenient for one or the other reason. 
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« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2013, 03:06:45 PM »

Except ex-Catholics such as Toth and those who were fervently anti-Catholic.

Me thinks Alexis Toth was "Anti the way I've been treated Catholic" would be a better way of terming it.  Otherwise, he would have been fine in the Eastern Catholic Church.
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