Author Topic: Why is the word Uniate offensive?  (Read 5616 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #180 on: June 03, 2013, 01:42:05 PM »
I would suggest that this is a phenomena related to the theory and reality of the unias themselves.

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #181 on: June 03, 2013, 04:59:27 PM »
I find it amazing that the Syro-Malabars can be so ignorant of those living beside them.  I mean if we in America can know what is up how can they not?

Deacon: Surely you and I know that with the sad history of religious strife among our people in the USA that in our own communities even today, there are more than a few BCC or ACROD  faithful who know we are "different", but are surprised when they come into into one of your churches or my churches for a wedding, a funeral or just out of curiosity and are surprised that we share mostly the same rubric and the same chant tradition (excepting for the translation differences). This is even in the same town or neighborhood where the building are in close proximity. Why would Indians be any better informed?

I am certainly used to ignorance from Latin Catholics, even those attending our parishes, but usually the cradles know what's up.  In fact the only time I've run into this myself is with the local OCA parish which broke away from us.  It is completely russified with no collective memory of having been Greek Catholic or Rusyn.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #182 on: June 03, 2013, 06:15:47 PM »
I find it amazing that the Syro-Malabars can be so ignorant of those living beside them.  I mean if we in America can know what is up how can they not?

Deacon: Surely you and I know that with the sad history of religious strife among our people in the USA that in our own communities even today, there are more than a few BCC or ACROD  faithful who know we are "different", but are surprised when they come into into one of your churches or my churches for a wedding, a funeral or just out of curiosity and are surprised that we share mostly the same rubric and the same chant tradition (excepting for the translation differences). This is even in the same town or neighborhood where the building are in close proximity. Why would Indians be any better informed?

I am certainly used to ignorance from Latin Catholics, even those attending our parishes, but usually the cradles know what's up.  In fact the only time I've run into this myself is with the local OCA parish which broke away from us.  It is completely russified with no collective memory of having been Greek Catholic or Rusyn.

As I hear it, you guys were Orthodox way before you went to Rome not the reverse....

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #183 on: June 03, 2013, 07:26:43 PM »
I find it amazing that the Syro-Malabars can be so ignorant of those living beside them.  I mean if we in America can know what is up how can they not?

Deacon: Surely you and I know that with the sad history of religious strife among our people in the USA that in our own communities even today, there are more than a few BCC or ACROD  faithful who know we are "different", but are surprised when they come into into one of your churches or my churches for a wedding, a funeral or just out of curiosity and are surprised that we share mostly the same rubric and the same chant tradition (excepting for the translation differences). This is even in the same town or neighborhood where the building are in close proximity. Why would Indians be any better informed?

I am certainly used to ignorance from Latin Catholics, even those attending our parishes, but usually the cradles know what's up.  In fact the only time I've run into this myself is with the local OCA parish which broke away from us.  It is completely russified with no collective memory of having been Greek Catholic or Rusyn.

As I hear it, you guys were Orthodox way before you went to Rome not the reverse....

Yes, but that is not what I am talking about.  They came from Mukachevo and Presov not Moscow and Petrograd but you wouldn't know it by attending their parish.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 07:27:31 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #184 on: June 03, 2013, 08:15:08 PM »
I find it amazing that the Syro-Malabars can be so ignorant of those living beside them.  I mean if we in America can know what is up how can they not?

Deacon: Surely you and I know that with the sad history of religious strife among our people in the USA that in our own communities even today, there are more than a few BCC or ACROD  faithful who know we are "different", but are surprised when they come into into one of your churches or my churches for a wedding, a funeral or just out of curiosity and are surprised that we share mostly the same rubric and the same chant tradition (excepting for the translation differences). This is even in the same town or neighborhood where the building are in close proximity. Why would Indians be any better informed?

I am certainly used to ignorance from Latin Catholics, even those attending our parishes, but usually the cradles know what's up.  In fact the only time I've run into this myself is with the local OCA parish which broke away from us.  It is completely russified with no collective memory of having been Greek Catholic or Rusyn.

As I hear it, you guys were Orthodox way before you went to Rome not the reverse....

Yes, but that is not what I am talking about.  They came from Mukachevo and Presov not Moscow and Petrograd but you wouldn't know it by attending their parish.  

That's true in almost every city and time in the Rust Belt, although many OCA "cradles" have rediscovered their cultural roots in recent years.  Sadly, decades of misguided propaganda in the former Metropolia conflated being Orthodox with being Russian - which came as a surprise at pan-Orthodox events to multitudes of Serbs, Bulgarians ,Romanians and Belorussians, not to mention Ukrainians who had their own variant of Slavic Orthodoxy.

Offline surajiype

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2013, 02:19:51 AM »
 
[/quote]

Deacon Phil,

I think I was unclear.  I meant traditional because the Chaldean and Armenian Catholic patriarchs used it.  I am sure equaling prestige with the Malankara Orthodox had something to do with it as well.

The Syro-Malabar Major Archbishop also claims his lineage from St. Thomas.

I do not think it is duplicity on Rome's part as they don't want it going on and sponsor things like CNEWA and Aid to the Church in Need which provide money without strings attached.  I think it shows how little control Rome has when an Eastern Catholic Church decides to do what it wants.  I am saddened the Malankara Catholics aren't helping their Orthodox brethren without sheep stealing.
[/quote]

Dn. Lance

There are both improvements and causes of concern as far as the Orthodox in India are concerned.

1. Relations between the Syro-Malabar church and the Orthodox are now better than they have been atleast for a hundred years. There are several riders ofcourse; relations are warm with the SM Archdiocese of Changanacherry which has always been the most traditional, independant minded and least Latinized of the SM archdioceses.  Where Chanagancherry minded bishops are located in the diaspora , relations are markedly better.
For example my parish hosted a convention of SM priests and laity, a decade ago this would be unthinkable. This has a lot to do with inter-catholic dynamics, relations between SM and Latin bishops in the diaspora especially in India seem to be patchy at best.  There was no reason for the SM diocese to approach an Orthodox church when there were 5 latin parishes and numerous Latin Catholic schools in the vicinity.  Then again it speaks volumes about the improvement that has been made.
We should remember ofcourse that the total seperation between the Malabar Catholics and Malabar Orthodox is a recent feature.
Well into the 1850's there was  plenty of interaction between the sides.  Parishes and priests changed sides atleast upto 1830, intermarriage was common and there were even attempts towards co-operation which were often nixed by the non-native bishops ruling over the SM dioceses then.  After the 1850's the gulf between the jurisdictions seems to have widened and a complete seperation seems to have been solidified around the 1900's.
Slowly that has been changing in the last 5-6 years and its welcome, we may follow different faiths and practices but no harm in acknowledging a shared patrimony.

2. With the Syro-Malankara, things are much more difficult. While they often speak about being bridges between East and West and so on, their actions are difficult for us to accept. Claiming titles is the least of the issues, in places where we have no churches, they will go and build one (even if there are no SMC laity in the area). Then will encourage our people to attent saying that there is no difference except that the Pope is commemorated in place of the Patriarch and Catholicos. As Dn. Phil said, using resources that are at their disposal time and again conversions will be gained in leiu of jobs, teaching and nursing positions etc. Entire dioceses have been erected where no SMC faithful exist.
The Orthodox and the Syro Malankara church have a difficult history and it was time we moved on , but such actions which negate what they say and what Rome says is huge stumbling block. The Orthodox in India do not want to snatch parishes and destroy the SMC, we regret its creation but accept it as another of history's quirks, but I look forward to the day when the SMC actually does what it claims to do.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #186 on: June 05, 2013, 08:49:02 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Remarkably I read it as a letter of defiance. Perhaps the nuance went past me.

Defiance? Where? He acknowledged that "if we are Catholic, then we have to accept all Catholic dogmas", among which he explicitly includes Papal infallibility. He refers to the Pope as "the successor of St. Peter the Rock" and warns of breaking the bond of unity with him by denying any of these dogmas. He strongly forbids preceding the commemoration of the Pope with "among the first", which he considers an act of defiance against legitimate authority, and allows the priests only to say "First, Lord, Remember His Holiness N. Pope of Rome..." which very clearly recognizes the Papal supremacy. I don't know where you're reading defiance in any of this text.

Again, if you specifically commemorate the Pope in the anaphora at every liturgy, you are acknowledging his jurisdiction over you. My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

Excellent post, concise and to the point.  Where the Bishop is, there is the Church.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #187 on: June 06, 2013, 10:26:24 AM »
Dn. Lance

There are both improvements and causes of concern as far as the Orthodox in India are concerned.

1. Relations between the Syro-Malabar church and the Orthodox are now better than they have been atleast for a hundred years. There are several riders ofcourse; relations are warm with the SM Archdiocese of Changanacherry which has always been the most traditional, independant minded and least Latinized of the SM archdioceses.  Where Chanagancherry minded bishops are located in the diaspora , relations are markedly better.
For example my parish hosted a convention of SM priests and laity, a decade ago this would be unthinkable. This has a lot to do with inter-catholic dynamics, relations between SM and Latin bishops in the diaspora especially in India seem to be patchy at best.  There was no reason for the SM diocese to approach an Orthodox church when there were 5 latin parishes and numerous Latin Catholic schools in the vicinity.  Then again it speaks volumes about the improvement that has been made.
We should remember ofcourse that the total seperation between the Malabar Catholics and Malabar Orthodox is a recent feature.
Well into the 1850's there was  plenty of interaction between the sides.  Parishes and priests changed sides atleast upto 1830, intermarriage was common and there were even attempts towards co-operation which were often nixed by the non-native bishops ruling over the SM dioceses then.  After the 1850's the gulf between the jurisdictions seems to have widened and a complete seperation seems to have been solidified around the 1900's.
Slowly that has been changing in the last 5-6 years and its welcome, we may follow different faiths and practices but no harm in acknowledging a shared patrimony.

2. With the Syro-Malankara, things are much more difficult. While they often speak about being bridges between East and West and so on, their actions are difficult for us to accept. Claiming titles is the least of the issues, in places where we have no churches, they will go and build one (even if there are no SMC laity in the area). Then will encourage our people to attent saying that there is no difference except that the Pope is commemorated in place of the Patriarch and Catholicos. As Dn. Phil said, using resources that are at their disposal time and again conversions will be gained in leiu of jobs, teaching and nursing positions etc. Entire dioceses have been erected where no SMC faithful exist.
The Orthodox and the Syro Malankara church have a difficult history and it was time we moved on , but such actions which negate what they say and what Rome says is huge stumbling block. The Orthodox in India do not want to snatch parishes and destroy the SMC, we regret its creation but accept it as another of history's quirks, but I look forward to the day when the SMC actually does what it claims to do.


Definitely sad.

Quick question ... I'm not familiar with the term "Malabar Orthodox", but I found a Wikipedia entry for "Malabar Diocese", within the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. Is that the same thing?
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #188 on: June 06, 2013, 11:24:36 AM »

Definitely sad.

Quick question ... I'm not familiar with the term "Malabar Orthodox", but I found a Wikipedia entry for "Malabar Diocese", within the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. Is that the same thing?

I think he is using Malabar as a geographical reference to the Malabar coast of India.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #189 on: June 13, 2013, 06:54:16 PM »
Deacon Phil,

An article on the whole patriarch-catholicos thing:
http://www.stgregoryarmenian.org/the-armenian-church/catholicos-patriarch/
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #190 on: June 26, 2013, 09:52:04 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #191 on: June 26, 2013, 10:52:10 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #192 on: June 26, 2013, 10:57:23 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.

Does "this" refer to arimethea's statement, "Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here."?
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #193 on: June 26, 2013, 11:02:44 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.
In my 41 years I have never heard a cradle refer to themselves as anything but Greek/Byzantine/Melkite/Ukrainian Catholic.  I am guessing those that do are Latin Catholic transfers, probably of the ultramontane type.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #194 on: June 26, 2013, 11:16:17 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.
In my 41 years I have never heard a cradle refer to themselves as anything but Greek/Byzantine/Melkite/Ukrainian Catholic.  I am guessing those that do are Latin Catholic transfers, probably of the ultramontane type.

Nope. Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic. Proud to visit a church used in the secret consecration of U. bishops.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #195 on: June 26, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.

Does "this" refer to arimethea's statement, "Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here."?

No. The word that beings with u and whose mere mention gets people fired faster than Paula Deen apparently.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2013, 06:40:59 AM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.
In my 41 years I have never heard a cradle refer to themselves as anything but Greek/Byzantine/Melkite/Ukrainian Catholic.  I am guessing those that do are Latin Catholic transfers, probably of the ultramontane type.

Nope. Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic. Proud to visit a church used in the secret consecration of U. bishops.

And a little behind the times apparently. The U-word was certainly used proudly by ECs back in the day (and EO were referred to, negatively, as "Non-Uniats" or "schismatics") but times change.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2013, 08:31:27 AM »
I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst worse things than mockery.

Please share what those things are?

Fishing for insults? Not hard to come by at OC.net.

Curious.  How much worse than a mockery can I be?

Some of the nicer words are Apostates, Traitors, Children of Traitors, money-lovers, and a word that begins with U that I can not use here.

I hope this answers once and for all why Uniate is offensive.

No it does not, so long as Eastern Catholics use it to describe themselves.
In my 41 years I have never heard a cradle refer to themselves as anything but Greek/Byzantine/Melkite/Ukrainian Catholic.  I am guessing those that do are Latin Catholic transfers, probably of the ultramontane type.

Nope. Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic. Proud to visit a church used in the secret consecration of U. bishops.

And a little behind the times apparently. The U-word was certainly used proudly by ECs back in the day (and EO were referred to, negatively, as "Non-Uniats" or "schismatics") but times change.

I was around back in the day and remember well the protagonists on both sides of the North American "borba" (church "war" within the Greek Catholic church which led many to Orthodoxy.) The term "Uniate" became a pejorative during the decades of conflict.

As I said on the "Vestments" thread, I'm 59 and the only folks who I have heard in America  use the word to describe people did so with one or two adjectives in front of the word. Most of them are elderly or dead and I rarely hear the word nowadays. Never did I hear any eastern Catholics (BCC or UGCC) in my experience call each other or their Church as the "Uniate" church. (I admit, we did use the term, again though decades ago. Before that, "they" were also the "tselibats" (figure it out phonetically) and we were the "indypindies". Both terms are anachronisms and have no current use or meaning.)

I cant speak for European usage, but here it is an anachronistic term with offensive connotations.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:33:01 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2013, 09:14:44 AM »
Never did I hear any eastern Catholics (BCC or UGCC) in my experience call each other or their Church as the "Uniate" church.

I've heard it said by GCs in reference to certain other GCs with whom they disagree, though I'm sure that isn't the kind of usage to which Shanghaiski was referring.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #199 on: June 27, 2013, 10:07:02 AM »
Never did I hear any eastern Catholics (BCC or UGCC) in my experience call each other or their Church as the "Uniate" church.

I've heard it said by GCs in reference to certain other GCs with whom they disagree, though I'm sure that isn't the kind of usage to which Shanghaiski was referring.

That could be, as in the use of a certain word in hip-hop lyrics?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #200 on: June 27, 2013, 10:15:05 AM »
Never did I hear any eastern Catholics (BCC or UGCC) in my experience call each other or their Church as the "Uniate" church.

I've heard it said by GCs in reference to certain other GCs with whom they disagree, though I'm sure that isn't the kind of usage to which Shanghaiski was referring.

That could be, as in the use of a certain word in hip-hop lyrics?
I would very much like to hear uniate hip-hop.  I bet its got an awesome beat.  :laugh:
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #201 on: June 27, 2013, 01:43:46 PM »
Never did I hear any eastern Catholics (BCC or UGCC) in my experience call each other or their Church as the "Uniate" church.

I've heard it said by GCs in reference to certain other GCs with whom they disagree, though I'm sure that isn't the kind of usage to which Shanghaiski was referring.

That could be, as in the use of a certain word in hip-hop lyrics?
I would very much like to hear uniate hip-hop.  I bet its got an awesome beat.  :laugh:

To my now-Yankee ears, I find Eastern European hip-hop and techno dance music to be dreadful.  ;)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #202 on: June 27, 2013, 10:10:28 PM »
Where's that one weird Greek Catholic cherubikon I've heard on You Tube? It was musically innovative, besides being liturgically scary.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #203 on: June 28, 2013, 12:08:47 AM »
Where's that one weird Greek Catholic cherubikon I've heard on You Tube? It was musically innovative, besides being liturgically scary.

Do you mean this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghIR1F1_So

It's mine, and wasn't intended for liturgical use. (Though I may demand it be sung at my funeral!)  ;D
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #204 on: July 01, 2013, 05:58:25 PM »
Where's that one weird Greek Catholic cherubikon I've heard on You Tube? It was musically innovative, besides being liturgically scary.

Do you mean this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghIR1F1_So

It's mine, and wasn't intended for liturgical use. (Though I may demand it be sung at my funeral!)  ;D

No, not the one. The one I'm thinking of is a vid of a choir possibly rehearsing it. But I'm sure a Gilligan's Island-like cherubikon on four-part harmony with swelling flourishes, if not already in use, will soon be used, given what I've heard already. And, actually, it's not all that bad. That is, it doesn't sound out of place, compared to the current corpus.
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