Author Topic: Why is the word Uniate offensive?  (Read 6269 times)

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Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« on: May 19, 2013, 07:28:17 PM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 07:41:05 PM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.


I think it has more to do with its history of being used as a perjorative against Eastern Catholics than anything inherent to the word, kinda like "monophysite" to the OO.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2013, 09:42:16 PM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.


I think it has more to do with its history of being used as a perjorative against Eastern Catholics than anything inherent to the word,

Right. In fact, if it was offensive to anyone at the beginning, it would have been the Orthodox.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2013, 10:42:02 PM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.


I think it has more to do with its history of being used as a perjorative against Eastern Catholics than anything inherent to the word,

Right. In fact, if it was offensive to anyone at the beginning, it would have been the Orthodox.

I think I know the explanatory ending to your sentence that you meant but I came up with two.

My preferred is "because the Orthodox were the first Uniates".

The second would be "that caused it".

There are certainly other endings.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2013, 10:44:18 PM »
All I see is Urinate.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 11:21:13 PM »
All I see is Urinate.

Well, I could definitely see how someone would consider that offensive if I called them that.  ;)
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 04:50:19 AM »
What about Disuniate?
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 07:39:04 AM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.


I think it has more to do with its history of being used as a perjorative against Eastern Catholics than anything inherent to the word,

Right. In fact, if it was offensive to anyone at the beginning, it would have been the Orthodox.

I think I know the explanatory ending to your sentence that you meant but I came up with two.

My preferred is "because the Orthodox were the first Uniates".

The second would be "that caused it".

There are certainly other endings.

 :) I meant, when the term was first used, if it was offensive to anyone it would have been offensive to the "non-uniat" Orthodox.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 07:44:52 AM »
What about Disuniate?

Here's the New Catholic Dictionary's article Non-Uniat Churches. (I would quote it, but it's a little too long vis-a-vis forum policy.)
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 09:52:03 AM »
I think the word communion is better. Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 10:09:52 AM »
It's offensive because it sounds like you're calling names: "You neeate!!"  ;D
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2013, 10:15:46 AM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 11:11:19 AM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2013, 11:11:35 AM »
What about Disuniate?

Here's the New Catholic Dictionary's article Non-Uniat Churches. (I would quote it, but it's a little too long vis-a-vis forum policy.)

The "New" Catholic Dictionary doesn't seem to have been updated since at least 1945 since it still speaks of the Bulgarian Exarchate. Quite an ironic name.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 11:14:29 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 11:29:27 AM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 11:38:03 AM »
The question below is from the Melkite Catechetical Questions for 9th through 12th graders as posted on the Newton Eparchy website:


40. Was the Vatican Council an ecumenical council? Why? Why Not?
Answer: The Vatican Council was not an ecumenical council – no participation from the Orthodox
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 12:00:55 PM »
LARP-ing^
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 12:12:37 PM »
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

This would actually be really interesting to watch.  What would Rome do?  Excommunicate you?  It's not like you don't have anywhere to go...  :)

At the same time, how much of the reticence of Eastern Catholics to "stand up for themselves" against Rome comes from their reverence for their faith beliefs about Rome and the papacy?  Only on the internet have I met Eastern Catholics with the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" mentality.  No matter how "Eastern" they are liturgically and culturally, the Eastern Catholics I've met "in real life" are basically "Roman Catholics of the X Rite" when it comes to their faith.  Many of them, though canonically Eastern Catholic and with a parish of the proper rite available to them, attend the local Roman Rite parish because Mass is shorter and Mass times more flexible.  If they do attend the Eastern Catholic parish, it's more for the (ethnic) community than it is about the rite, patrimony, "Orthodoxy", etc. 

So I think you're right, it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics when they let Rome push them around, but I think we might disagree on what it is they've done wrong.         
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 12:14:55 PM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 07:08:19 PM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

They would say the same about you, as I'm sure you know.  ::)
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 07:23:51 PM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

Byzantine Catholics never stopped believing in Christ, unlike the many Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Romanian Orthodox who did actually apostacize and become Communists.  Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 07:29:29 PM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.

Besides its use as a perjorative, it is simply inaccurate.  To be a uniate, in the common definition, one must be leaving the Orthodox Church to unite with the Catholic Church.  Cradle Greek Catholics didn't leave Orthodoxy.  We are what we have been for hundreds of years now. 
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 09:03:01 PM »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 09:06:22 PM »
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

This would actually be really interesting to watch.  What would Rome do?  Excommunicate you?  It's not like you don't have anywhere to go...  :)
I doubt Rome would do much of anything.

At the same time, how much of the reticence of Eastern Catholics to "stand up for themselves" against Rome comes from their reverence for their faith beliefs about Rome and the papacy?  Only on the internet have I met Eastern Catholics with the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" mentality.  No matter how "Eastern" they are liturgically and culturally, the Eastern Catholics I've met "in real life" are basically "Roman Catholics of the X Rite" when it comes to their faith.  Many of them, though canonically Eastern Catholic and with a parish of the proper rite available to them, attend the local Roman Rite parish because Mass is shorter and Mass times more flexible.  If they do attend the Eastern Catholic parish, it's more for the (ethnic) community than it is about the rite, patrimony, "Orthodoxy", etc. 

So I think you're right, it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics when they let Rome push them around, but I think we might disagree on what it is they've done wrong.         
As a Melkite Catholic I see myself as Orthodox, and I really don't think much about the "communion with Rome" part. I do think it is nice that Rome is in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, but it does not really impact my identity as a Christian.
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2013, 09:13:12 PM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.

If you are in communion with Rome, you agree with their dogmas. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2013, 09:14:13 PM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.

If you are in communion with Rome, you agree with their dogmas. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.
I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2013, 11:51:36 PM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

Byzantine Catholics never stopped believing in Christ, unlike the many Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Romanian Orthodox who did actually apostacize and become Communists.  Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.
An inane thing to say as joining the Communist party did not imply apostasy necessarily.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 12:01:28 AM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

Byzantine Catholics never stopped believing in Christ, unlike the many Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Romanian Orthodox who did actually apostacize and become Communists.  Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.
An inane thing to say as joining the Communist party did not imply apostasy necessarily.
Those were non-apostate Communists martyring faithful Orthodox and Catholics and destroying their churches?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 12:10:56 AM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

Byzantine Catholics never stopped believing in Christ, unlike the many Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Romanian Orthodox who did actually apostacize and become Communists.  Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.
An inane thing to say as joining the Communist party did not imply apostasy necessarily.
Those were non-apostate Communists martyring faithful Orthodox and Catholics and destroying their churches?
Many communists built churches. If that surprises you.




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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 12:15:14 AM »
Perhaps the U word is offensive to the BC because they deep down feel guilty for their apostasy?

Byzantine Catholics never stopped believing in Christ, unlike the many Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Romanian Orthodox who did actually apostacize and become Communists.  Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.
An inane thing to say as joining the Communist party did not imply apostasy necessarily.
Those were non-apostate Communists martyring faithful Orthodox and Catholics and destroying their churches?
Many communists built churches. If that surprises you.

Not at all.  Many communists became priests and bishops too, it doesn't mean they weren't apostates.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 03:28:55 AM »
Rather I think the continued harassment of Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe by Orthodox is largely due to the guilt and shame they feel.

Or it's a response to harassment of Orthodox by Catholics in the Commonwealth and Austro-Hungary. Not saying  it's a right reason. but factual.

I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.

He is the supervisor of your Church. And the "vicar of Christ".
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 05:24:47 AM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.

If you are in communion with Rome, you agree with their dogmas. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.
I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.

So the Melkite Church by itself is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and needs neither Rome nor Constantinople/Moscow?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:24:57 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 08:30:36 AM »
So why is the word Uniate offensive?  Doesn't it just mean unified with Rome?

Wikipedia has failed me, so I ask here.

Besides its use as a perjorative, it is simply inaccurate.  To be a uniate, in the common definition, one must be leaving the Orthodox Church to unite with the Catholic Church.  Cradle Greek Catholics didn't leave Orthodoxy.  We are what we have been for hundreds of years now. 


How can it be a perjorative if the term was invented by the Roman Catholic Church and is used by the Roman Catholic Church in discussions with the Orthodox.  The term is also used by academic scholars like Prof. John-Paul Himka and others.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 09:13:21 AM »
A hot topic. To provoke the good Deacon Lance to respond as he did verifies that the psychic wounds suffered by the Rusyn community during the first seventy years or so of the last century left deep scars, even on those of us - BCC or Orthodox - who were either too young to be at the center of the fight or not even born then.... I could see myself responding out of character to certain charges or exaggerations directed towards those who left the Unia - not all, I must add, coming from the Catholic "team." But, that's not for today.

Our Melkite friend expressed the common teachings of the Melkites re Rome , then a comment was made about standing up to Rome  and the Orthodox response followed "What would Rome do? Excommunicate you?" To which a response of "probably nothing"  followed.

I don't know about 2013, but in the early 1930's nearly ALL of the Rusyn Greek Catholic clergy and  prominent laity petitioned Rome in a formal, Canon lawyer prepared petition and brief seeking redress from various claimed violations of the Union of Uzhorod incorporated in the papal bulls, EA Semper and Cum Data Fuerit which mandated, among many things, that only celibate clergy minister the North American Greek Catholics. This took place within a background of increased pressures to Latinize. This petition, respectfully prepared by a graduate of the Presov Greek Catholic seminary and Harvard Law School, was delivered to the Congregation for the Eastern Churches where it sat and sat while the Church in America boiled over.

Finally in 1936, Rome's response was finally made and it was clear. There would be no compromise or concessions from Rome. Priests were to repent and publicly recant while professing their loyalty/fealty to Rome and the Holy Father. Control over church properties would be vested in the Greek Catholic ordinary or else costly and lengthy litigation would follow.

The clergy, mostly green carded immigrants with families had little choice. Comply or face the streets in the midst of the depression. Turn over control of the financial reserves and weekly publication, the Viestnyk of the leading fraternal organization or lose burial benefits. Risk losing the properties your families secured by personal mortgages. If you resisted and had signed the petition or if you were a national fraternal lay leader and didn't recant, you were FORMALLY excommunicated. (Including my maternal grandfather.) Most clergy, including much of the anti Rome leadership folded, many parishes resisted and most lost their properties. Those who would not fold, eventually formed an independent Greek Catholic organization of parishes, elected as administrator,  Fr.Orestes Chornock, pastor of what was the largest Greek Catholic parish in the USA, St. John's of Bridgeport, Ct which split into at least four St. John's in greater Bridgeport today... A year later, the bulk of those parishes and priests sought the protection of the EP, and ACROD resulted. Seventy five years later the scars still exist among the descendants of both factions but we at least understand our common history, culture and why things are what they are.

Would Rome act in a similar fashion in 2013? Probably/hopefully not. I think they practice a variant of         " Don't ask, don't tell" regarding today's Greek Catholics in terms of dogmatic/doctrinal/liturgical issues but remember that Popes come and go.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 09:18:09 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 09:18:13 AM »
I don't know about 2013, but in the early 1930's ...

At least you went back to the previous century and not 1034.  ::)

But still - the 1930s were almost a hundred years ago. Granted we should learn from history, but the issues of today are different than they were in the 1930s, and need to be dealt with accordingly.

I do believe there are problems in the interaction between East and West, but they are the problems unique to 2013, not the same problems our great-grandparents were dealing with.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 10:09:05 AM »
I don't know about 2013, but in the early 1930's ...

At least you went back to the previous century and not 1034.  ::)

1034 being the average of 1014 and 1054?  ;D
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 12:13:19 PM »
I don't know about 2013, but in the early 1930's ...

At least you went back to the previous century and not 1034.  ::)

But still - the 1930s were almost a hundred years ago. Granted we should learn from history, but the issues of today are different than they were in the 1930s, and need to be dealt with accordingly.

I do believe there are problems in the interaction between East and West, but they are the problems unique to 2013, not the same problems our great-grandparents were dealing with.

I agree. Frankly the healing which is taking place now in what was once the American Rusyn "ghetto" and now the broader, minimalisticly ethnic BCC and ACROD  is far greater than across the general Orthodox and Catholic worlds.

I was discussing this the other evening with our new, ethnically Greek, bishop. I attributed this to the fact that unlike most Orthodox or Catholic ethnic majorities (read Greek and Russians in the OC corner and Irish/Germans in north American Roman Catholicism ), the Rusyns, much like the Arab Melkites, lived among Roman Catholics and in the case of the Slovak Rusyns, among Lutherans and Hussites as well in the old world. The caricatures held by many Christians of east or west of the "others" were not as much of a reality there . "We" understood we weren't " them", but we saw "they" weren't goat horned agents of the anti-Christ either coming to steal our women and sacrifice our babies.

 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 12:14:13 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »
"We" understood we weren't " them", but we saw "they" weren't goat horned agents of the anti-Christ either coming to steal our women and sacrifice our babies.

Obviously, you're wrong.  They are ram-horned agents of the anti-Christ coming to steal our women and sacrifice our babies. 

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 12:33:37 PM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.

If you are in communion with Rome, you agree with their dogmas. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.
I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.
??????????????????

I think the "Vicar of Christ" would disagree with that comment.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2013, 12:40:51 PM »
As a Melkite Catholic I see myself as Orthodox, and I really don't think much about the "communion with Rome" part. I do think it is nice that Rome is in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, but it does not really impact my identity as a Christian.

Do you ever attend RC masses and receive their Eucharist?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 01:03:34 PM »
"We" understood we weren't " them", but we saw "they" weren't goat horned agents of the anti-Christ either coming to steal our women and sacrifice our babies.

Obviously, you're wrong.  They are ram-horned agents of the anti-Christ coming to steal our women and sacrifice our babies. 



Which "them" are "they"?   ;)

Reminds me of a quote by Pogo from my younger days: "We have met the enemy and they are us."  :D

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 08:42:23 PM »
Communion involves distinction and reciprocity; while union tends to involve absorption. I have decided to coin a new term, co-uniate, in order to describe the communion of two sister Churches or groupings of sister Churches.

 :laugh:

The problem is your term is misleading since ECCs are subject to the Roman Church.
When that happens it is primarily the fault of Eastern Catholics. Quite honestly, we should stand up for ourselves and tell Rome - politely - to mind its own business.

Everyone's business is Rome's business. That's the dogma that your church teaches. Stop pretending you live in the 10th century.
The Melkite Church doesn't teach that. I have never taught that when I have led faith formation classes for our young people.

If you are in communion with Rome, you agree with their dogmas. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.
I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 08:48:31 PM by Iconodule »

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 10:40:14 PM »
As a Melkite Catholic I see myself as Orthodox, and I really don't think much about the "communion with Rome" part. I do think it is nice that Rome is in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, but it does not really impact my identity as a Christian.

Seems reasonable to me.

I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.

Seems reasonable to me. Who owns whom is in the eye of the beholder.

I think the "Vicar of Christ" would disagree with that comment.
PP

Why should the Melkites care?


The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Remarkably I read it as a letter of defiance. Perhaps the nuance went past me.

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Re: Why is the word Uniate offensive?
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2013, 07:06:08 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Remarkably I read it as a letter of defiance. Perhaps the nuance went past me.

Defiance? Where? He acknowledged that "if we are Catholic, then we have to accept all Catholic dogmas", among which he explicitly includes Papal infallibility. He refers to the Pope as "the successor of St. Peter the Rock" and warns of breaking the bond of unity with him by denying any of these dogmas. He strongly forbids preceding the commemoration of the Pope with "among the first", which he considers an act of defiance against legitimate authority, and allows the priests only to say "First, Lord, Remember His Holiness N. Pope of Rome..." which very clearly recognizes the Papal supremacy. I don't know where you're reading defiance in any of this text.

Again, if you specifically commemorate the Pope in the anaphora at every liturgy, you are acknowledging his jurisdiction over you. My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:07:15 AM by Iconodule »