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Author Topic: Why is the word Uniate offensive?  (Read 4740 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2013, 09:02:42 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police
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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:24 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police

Why not?  we commemorate Met. Philip and Bishop Thomas.  Is there some rule against it?
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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2013, 09:13:56 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police

Why not?  we commemorate Met. Philip and Bishop Thomas.  Is there some rule against it?

You Antiochians are strange. Not sure, taking into account I do not know how your affair with bishops eventually solved.

The traditional practice is to commemorate the dioceasan bishop and the bishops who are present. Not some patriarchs or metropolitans that preside synods (unless of course it's a primatial Liturgy). Commemorating synod presidents alongside diocesan bishop is a Russian innovation.
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« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2013, 09:23:31 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police

Why not?  we commemorate Met. Philip and Bishop Thomas.  Is there some rule against it?
We do the same.

PP
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« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2013, 10:25:30 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police

Why not?  we commemorate Met. Philip and Bishop Thomas.  Is there some rule against it?
We do the same.

PP

We commemorate Patriarch +Irinej and our bishop, Bishop +Mitrophan as well at every liturgy.
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« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2013, 10:40:20 AM »


The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Remarkably I read it as a letter of defiance. Perhaps the nuance went past me.

Defiance? Where? He acknowledged that "if we are Catholic, then we have to accept all Catholic dogmas", among which he explicitly includes Papal infallibility. He refers to the Pope as "the successor of St. Peter the Rock" and warns of breaking the bond of unity with him by denying any of these dogmas. He strongly forbids preceding the commemoration of the Pope with "among the first", which he considers an act of defiance against legitimate authority, and allows the priests only to say "First, Lord, Remember His Holiness N. Pope of Rome..." which very clearly recognizes the Papal supremacy. I don't know where you're reading defiance in any of this text.

Again, if you specifically commemorate the Pope in the anaphora at every liturgy, you are acknowledging his jurisdiction over you. My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

Exactly. In ACROD we commemorate the EP and our local bishop for the same reason. And the intonation is properly translated from the Slavonic through the Koine Greek as " Among the first." The distinction between "Among the first, remember..." and "First remember..." is both linguistically and theologically clear and unambiguous.
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« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2013, 10:44:13 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Dear God, not this same song again. I have the lyrics memorized: Bishop John Elya said blank, so that proves that blank is "the Melkite teaching". Did I get them right?
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2013, 10:46:41 AM »

My church commemorates the OCA metropolitan and our local bishop, because they have jurisdiction over us; we do not commemorate, say, the Ecumenical Patriarch specifically, except on those special occasions where we commemorate all the orthodox primates; we are in communion with him but he does not have jurisdiction over us.

You shouldn't commemorate the metropolitan either police

Why not?  we commemorate Met. Philip and Bishop Thomas.  Is there some rule against it?

You Antiochians are strange. Not sure, taking into account I do not know how your affair with bishops eventually solved.

The traditional practice is to commemorate the dioceasan bishop and the bishops who are present. Not some patriarchs or metropolitans that preside synods (unless of course it's a primatial Liturgy). Commemorating synod presidents alongside diocesan bishop is a Russian innovation.

Orthodoxy = "it depends."  

ACROD, like OCA was founded by former Greek Catholics. I can't tell you how many times we in ACROD were criticized over the years by "High" Russians and Greeks for retaining the commemoration for the EP as being a "uniat" thing.
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2013, 12:42:39 PM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Dear God, not this same song again. I have the lyrics memorized: Bishop John Elya said blank, so that proves that blank is "the Melkite teaching". Did I get them right?

More like, "The Melkites say blank at every liturgy, therefore blank is the Melkite teaching." Which is quite reasonable and straightforward.
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2013, 03:35:36 PM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Dear God, not this same song again. I have the lyrics memorized: Bishop John Elya said blank, so that proves that blank is "the Melkite teaching". Did I get them right?

More like, "The Melkites say blank at every liturgy, therefore blank is the Melkite teaching." Which is quite reasonable and straightforward.

I was talking about this part:

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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2013, 03:42:29 PM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Dear God, not this same song again. I have the lyrics memorized: Bishop John Elya said blank, so that proves that blank is "the Melkite teaching". Did I get them right?

More like, "The Melkites say blank at every liturgy, therefore blank is the Melkite teaching." Which is quite reasonable and straightforward.

I was talking about this part:



Everything Bishop John says in that link logically follows from the Melkite church's basic recognition, in their liturgy, of the Pope's universal jurisdiction.
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« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 07:50:04 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church

Dear God, not this same song again. I have the lyrics memorized: Bishop John Elya said blank, so that proves that blank is "the Melkite teaching". Did I get them right?
So you dont believe in the Pope's universal jurisdiction? Seems that my priest's monk friend had it right.
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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2013, 08:58:05 AM »

Well, to throw in my two cents here- technically speaking, the Pope has jurisdiction over us, by virtue of Universal Jurisdiction. As a Ruthenian, we commemorate the Pope, then Metropolitan William (we don't have a diocesan bishop, as our Metropolitan is our former eparch). As far as I'm aware, the Pope has jurisdiction over us, whether we like to think about it or not. Especially however much the Ukrainians I know may not like to think about it.  Tongue
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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2013, 10:53:11 AM »

I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.
The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church
Rather than write my own response I thought I would re-post the text written by Hesychios:


"Looks like equal time given to opposing viewpoints...

Bishop John Elya was one of only two Melkite bishops in the synod to vote against the Zoghby initiative. Both of whom were appointed to their positions by the Pope, not the Melkite synod!

In other words, the Pope now (only since Vat II) has the power to name members to the Melkite synod, when those Sees are in the diaspora. I hate to state that bishop John's opinion can be discounted, clearly it cannot, but he is equally clearly out of step with his own synod and Patriarch, as well as (apparently) traditional Melkite belief.

He is also retired, and no longer occupies the See. I wonder if his successor was a bishop at the time, and if he signed the Zoghby Initiative? Can anyone here help us with that?

Nevertheless, the initiative passed overwhelmingly, and was heartily endorsed by the Patriarch. Bishop John does not speak for anyone but himself (and his Pope I guess, that counts for something), he is contradicting his church's Synod.

We see the Melkites saying one thing in the synod, and another in the diaspora. It's synodal integrity slowing eroding away as more and more Melkites leave the Middle east for places like Europe, Australia and North America and the Pope will have ever growing direct control over erecting new Eparchies and appointing new bishops.

Why is this important? Patriarchal churches in Communion with Rome must be absolutely free of coercion from, or subordination to the See of Rome, to set a good example for the Orthodox. Right now we see a synod with manacles on, making a lot of noise but ultimately unable: to even name all it's own bishops, manage it's own growth and teach it's own Truth to it's children abroad.

No Orthodox church wants to be trapped in a vortex like that one, enticed by promises then slowly constrained into absorption, and with that Orthodox Truth disappears.

Michael"


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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2013, 10:57:04 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy.  . . .
I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Now as far as the pope being commemorated in Melkite parish liturgies is concerned, I think he should only be commemorated in liturgies celebrated by the Melkite Patriarch. I see no reason to commemorate him in every parish. Hopefully someday, when more Melkites are willing to stand up for their own legitimate traditions, that practice will finally be done away with.
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« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2013, 11:07:25 AM »

I am in communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, and the bishop of Rome happens to be in communion with the same Church.
The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy. If you are still confused about what your church teaches, here is a helpful link: https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-melkite-clergy-and-the-pope-why-and-how-is-the-pope-commemorated-in-the-melkite-church
Rather than write my own response I thought I would re-post the text written by Hesychios:


"Looks like equal time given to opposing viewpoints...

Bishop John Elya was one of only two Melkite bishops in the synod to vote against the Zoghby initiative. Both of whom were appointed to their positions by the Pope, not the Melkite synod!

In other words, the Pope now (only since Vat II) has the power to name members to the Melkite synod, when those Sees are in the diaspora. I hate to state that bishop John's opinion can be discounted, clearly it cannot, but he is equally clearly out of step with his own synod and Patriarch, as well as (apparently) traditional Melkite belief.

He is also retired, and no longer occupies the See. I wonder if his successor was a bishop at the time, and if he signed the Zoghby Initiative? Can anyone here help us with that?

Nevertheless, the initiative passed overwhelmingly, and was heartily endorsed by the Patriarch. Bishop John does not speak for anyone but himself (and his Pope I guess, that counts for something), he is contradicting his church's Synod.

We see the Melkites saying one thing in the synod, and another in the diaspora. It's synodal integrity slowing eroding away as more and more Melkites leave the Middle east for places like Europe, Australia and North America and the Pope will have ever growing direct control over erecting new Eparchies and appointing new bishops.

Why is this important? Patriarchal churches in Communion with Rome must be absolutely free of coercion from, or subordination to the See of Rome, to set a good example for the Orthodox. Right now we see a synod with manacles on, making a lot of noise but ultimately unable: to even name all it's own bishops, manage it's own growth and teach it's own Truth to it's children abroad.

No Orthodox church wants to be trapped in a vortex like that one, enticed by promises then slowly constrained into absorption, and with that Orthodox Truth disappears.

Michael"

So, according to this text, the Melkite church 1) has bishops appointed by the Pope; 2) is merely "making a lot of noise" with the Zoghby declaration and similar statements; 3) is moving toward even greater subordination to Rome than before. Thanks Apotheoun, you have brilliantly demolished your own claims about the Melkite church being an independent church merely in communion with Rome. And when he says that this is not traditional Melkite practice, it must be asked again, whom do you commemorate first in the anaphora at your regular liturgies?

How did the Melkite church become "trapped in a vortex like that one"? By entering into communion with a church claiming dogmatically to have universal supreme jurisdiction over everyone. If you don't agree with what someone is teaching as dogma, you shouldn't enter into communion with him- it's that simple. Even if the Melkite Catholic church, at its beginning in the 18th century, seemed to have real vestiges of independence, it was bound to slide toward its present subjugation because it already, implicitly, subjugated itself by entering communion with the Papal supremacists. So again, the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" model continues to be untenable and nothing more than a fantasy.
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« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2013, 11:14:39 AM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy.  . . .
I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Note the bolded words. A patriarchal liturgy is of course different from the regular parish liturgies conducted by priests. Nice try at dodging the issue though. 

Quote
Now as far as the pope being commemorated in Melkite parish liturgies is concerned, I think he should only be commemorated in liturgies celebrated by the Melkite Patriarch. I see no reason to commemorate him in every parish.

I've bolded the parts that are completely irrelevant.

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« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2013, 12:14:35 PM »

The Melkite Church commemorates the Pope at every liturgy (not just at special events or when the Pope is present at the liturgy). One does that only for a hierarch who has jurisdiction over one's church. Therefore, the Melkite church acknowledges the Pope's universal jurisdiction at every liturgy.  . . .
I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Note the bolded words. A patriarchal liturgy is of course different from the regular parish liturgies conducted by priests. Nice try at dodging the issue though. 

Quote
Now as far as the pope being commemorated in Melkite parish liturgies is concerned, I think he should only be commemorated in liturgies celebrated by the Melkite Patriarch. I see no reason to commemorate him in every parish.

I've bolded the parts that are completely irrelevant.
I did note that, and that is why if you actually read what I wrote, which you rarely do, you will see that I do not think it is appropriate to commemorate the pope in parish liturgies. Why would I want him commemorated? After all, he is not my patriarch, nor is he my bishop.
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« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2013, 12:15:38 PM »

I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Does your pope commemorate your patriarch during every Liturgy?
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« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2013, 12:16:23 PM »


I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Now as far as the pope being commemorated in Melkite parish liturgies is concerned, I think he should only be commemorated in liturgies celebrated by the Melkite Patriarch. I see no reason to commemorate him in every parish. Hopefully someday, when more Melkites are willing to stand up for their own legitimate traditions, that practice will finally be done away with.

As I believe has been noted already, heads of autocephalous Churches commemorate the other primates with whose Churches they commune; it doesn't happen in every parish.  Parishes are supposed to commemorate the local bishop, the local bishop commemorates the primate, and the primate commemorates the other primates.  

Of course, there are exceptions, like when OCA parishes commemorate the primate and the local bishop: do both have the same jurisdiction over the same parish?  If not, it's really not necessary, and I've been to parishes where the priest omitted it intentionally.  And in Oriental practice, it's normal to commemorate, in addition to the local bishop, the primate; in addition, other primates are sometimes commemorated.  Strictly speaking, it's not necessary, and "who has jurisdiction" is always clear to us, but it is done.  

Are you arguing that the latter alone describes Melkite practice?  
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« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2013, 12:18:04 PM »

Why would I want him commemorated? After all, he is not my patriarch, nor is he my bishop.

Does Universal Ordinary Jursidiction mean something else to the Melkites?
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« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2013, 12:19:11 PM »

I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Does your pope commemorate your patriarch during every Liturgy?

Good question.  The Latins don't have the practice that the Byzantines do in this regard, so the Pope definitely doesn't commemorate any of the Eastern Catholic primates.  I'm not even sure if, when the Pope celebrates Mass outside of Rome, he commemorates the local bishop (in Rome, of course, he only commemorates himself in the anaphora).  
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« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2013, 12:20:16 PM »


I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Now as far as the pope being commemorated in Melkite parish liturgies is concerned, I think he should only be commemorated in liturgies celebrated by the Melkite Patriarch. I see no reason to commemorate him in every parish. Hopefully someday, when more Melkites are willing to stand up for their own legitimate traditions, that practice will finally be done away with.

As I believe has been noted already, heads of autocephalous Churches commemorate the other primates with whose Churches they commune; it doesn't happen in every parish.  Parishes are supposed to commemorate the local bishop, the local bishop commemorates the primate, and the primate commemorates the other primates.  

Of course, there are exceptions, like when OCA parishes commemorate the primate and the local bishop: do both have the same jurisdiction over the same parish?  If not, it's really not necessary, and I've been to parishes where the priest omitted it intentionally.  And in Oriental practice, it's normal to commemorate, in addition to the local bishop, the primate; in addition, other primates are sometimes commemorated.  Strictly speaking, it's not necessary, and "who has jurisdiction" is always clear to us, but it is done.  

Are you arguing that the latter alone describes Melkite practice?  
I am saying that it describes Melkite practice in the United States. But again, as I have said before - and I don't know how many other ways I can say it - the Melkite Church needs to stand up for itself, and tell Rome to mind its own business. We also need to clean up our own act (liturgically and otherwise) and purge the vestigial Latinizations that still afflict our life.

As far as "universal jurisdiction" is concerned, no bishop has that kind of jurisdiction. From my perspective the bishop of Rome only has actual jurisdiction in the diocese of Rome.
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« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2013, 12:21:20 PM »

I do not think it is appropriate to commemorate the pope in parish liturgies. Why would I want him commemorated?

Again, irrelevant parts in  boldface.

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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »

I see. So in the dozens and dozens of liturgical videos that I have watched on the Moscow Patriarchate's Youtube channel where Patriarch Kirill commemorates all the other Patriarchs (and even the Metropolitan of the OCA) he is admitting that they all have "universal jurisdiction" over him. That is interesting.

Does your pope commemorate your patriarch during every Liturgy?
Nope, because the Roman Church has - as I am sure most posters here would agree - lost touch with the ancient Tradition of the Church. Perhaps the Orthodox - in their talks with the Roman Church - should call it back to Tradition.
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« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2013, 12:23:34 PM »

I am saying that it describes Melkite practice in the United States. But again, as I have said before - and I don't know how many other ways I can say it - the Melkite Church needs to stand up for itself, and tell Rome to mind its own business. We also need to clean up our own act (liturgically and otherwise) and purge the vestigial Latinizations that still afflict our life.

As far as "universal jurisdiction" is concerned, no bishop has that kind of jurisdiction. From my perspective the bishop of Rome only has actual jurisdiction in the diocese of Rome.

What's the point of remaining in communion with Rome if you are going declare any tenets that don't agree with your opinion null and void?
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« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »

Why would I want him commemorated? After all, he is not my patriarch, nor is he my bishop.

Does Universal Ordinary Jursidiction mean something else to the Melkites?
It doesn't exists for the Melkite Church. The pope's primacy is not supremacy, nor is it a matter of jurisdiction. Perhaps that explains why the Melkite Patriarch has refused to call any of the later Roman councils ecumenical.
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« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2013, 12:25:38 PM »

I am saying that it describes Melkite practice in the United States. But again, as I have said before - and I don't know how many other ways I can say it - the Melkite Church needs to stand up for itself, and tell Rome to mind its own business. We also need to clean up our own act (liturgically and otherwise) and purge the vestigial Latinizations that still afflict our life.

As far as "universal jurisdiction" is concerned, no bishop has that kind of jurisdiction. From my perspective the bishop of Rome only has actual jurisdiction in the diocese of Rome.

What's the point of remaining in communion with Rome if you are going declare any tenets that don't agree with your opinion null and void?
I am in communion with the Melkite Church, and the pope happens to be in communion with the same Church. I do not wake up every morning saying to myself, "Oh, I am so happy to be in communion with Rome." And I don't say that because I am not directly in communion with the bishop of that diocese; instead, I am in communion with my bishop and through him with the Melkite Patriarch.
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« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2013, 12:27:24 PM »

Now what would I do if the bishop of Rome broke communion with the Melkite Catholic Church? Where would I stand? I have no qualms in saying that I would remain in the Melkite Church.
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« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2013, 12:29:30 PM »

Too much is made of the pope. He is just a bishop, not a super-bishop (regardless of the pretensions of the Roman Church on the issue), and perhaps the Orthodox should more forcefully remind the Roman Catholic representatives of this fact during their talks with Roman officials in the Joint International Commission on Dialogue.
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« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2013, 12:30:48 PM »

Too much is made of the pope. He is just a bishop

So why does the Melkite liturgy commemorate him first in the anaphora? And don't answer with what you think should be done or not done.
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« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2013, 12:31:55 PM »

Too much is made of the pope. He is just a bishop

So why does the Melkite liturgy commemorate him first in the anaphora? And don't answer with what you think should be done or not done.
Because we have been Latinized, and like all other Latinizations it should be expunged from our liturgy.

What else do you expect me to respond. That it is truly representative of the Eastern liturgical tradition to commemorate the pope? I know it is not, which is why I think it should stop.
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« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2013, 12:32:41 PM »

Good question.  The Latins don't have the practice that the Byzantines do in this regard, so the Pope definitely doesn't commemorate any of the Eastern Catholic primates.  I'm not even sure if, when the Pope celebrates Mass outside of Rome, he commemorates the local bishop (in Rome, of course, he only commemorates himself in the anaphora).  

The Roman Church has only one autocephalous Church (then a couple of autonomous Eastern Patriarchates). Since there is only one autocephalous primate it would be silly.

I am in communion with the Melkite Church, and the pope happens to be in communion with the same Church.

He is the supreme leader of your Church.
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« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2013, 12:34:09 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2013, 12:34:30 PM »

Good question.  The Latins don't have the practice that the Byzantines do in this regard, so the Pope definitely doesn't commemorate any of the Eastern Catholic primates.  I'm not even sure if, when the Pope celebrates Mass outside of Rome, he commemorates the local bishop (in Rome, of course, he only commemorates himself in the anaphora).  

The Roman Church has only one autocephalous Church (then a couple of autonomous Eastern Patriarchates). Since there is only one autocephalous primate it would be silly.

I am in communion with the Melkite Church, and the pope happens to be in communion with the same Church.

He is the supreme leader of your Church.
In your opinion. The pope is a wonderful bishop of Rome, and I have no problem with him accept when he overreaches his position, which is quite often. But I think the super-papacy's days are coming to an end.
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« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2013, 12:36:47 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations. How is that a denial. Just because I refuse to leave my Church to make you happy? I intend to stay in the Melkite Church and work for the removal of Latinizations. You may not agree with me, and I am fine with that, because you are - quite frankly - a nobody to me. I don't know you from Adam. God will judge me when I die and should I have made the wrong choice I will pay the price for it. The same is true for you. God bless.
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« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2013, 12:38:52 PM »


In your opinion. The pope is a wonderful bishop of Rome, and I have no problem with him accept when he overreaches his position, which is quite often. But I think the super-papacy's days are coming to an end.

Quote
We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.
So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
— Vatican Council, Sess. IV ,  Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, Chapter iv
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« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2013, 12:41:59 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations. How is that a denial. Just because I refuse to leave my Church to make you happy? I intend to stay in the Melkite Church and work for the removal of Latinizations.

The problem is Latinisations in theology are what differs Melkites from the Orthodox. There wouldn't be any Melkites if your theology was Orthodox because you would be Orthodox.


Quote
You may not agree with me, and I am fine with that, because you are - quite frankly - a nobody to me. I don't know you from Adam. God will judge me when I die and should I have made the wrong choice I will pay the price for it. The same is true for you. God bless.

<emphasis mine>

That made me smile.
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« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2013, 12:43:16 PM »


In your opinion. The pope is a wonderful bishop of Rome, and I have no problem with him accept when he overreaches his position, which is quite often. But I think the super-papacy's days are coming to an end.

Quote
We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.
So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
— Vatican Council, Sess. IV ,  Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, Chapter iv
Nice to see that you know how to use the copy and paste function, but I can copy and paste things too, for example the following from Melkite Catholic Archbishop Zoghby (of blessed memory), who said: "In any case, valid or not, Vatican I has the same designation as the Council of Lyons, a 'general' synod of the West. With this designation it is neither ecumenical nor infallible and could produce only theological opinions that can not be imposed on anyone." [Archbishop Elias Zoghby, "Ecumenical Reflections"]

As I have said plenty of times I do not accept ANY of the later Roman synods as ecumenical, and - by the way - neither does the Melkite Catholic Patriarch or the Melkite Synod.
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« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2013, 12:44:36 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations. How is that a denial. Just because I refuse to leave my Church to make you happy? I intend to stay in the Melkite Church and work for the removal of Latinizations.

The problem is Latinisations in theology are what differs Melkites from the Orthodox. There wouldn't be any Melkites if your theology was Orthodox because you would be Orthodox.


Quote
You may not agree with me, and I am fine with that, because you are - quite frankly - a nobody to me. I don't know you from Adam. God will judge me when I die and should I have made the wrong choice I will pay the price for it. The same is true for you. God bless.

<emphasis mine>

That made me smile.
Oh snap! Of course I am a nobody to you. I am just an name on the internet for you, just as you are for me.

No doubt just another of your "brilliant" comebacks. Your wit is a thing to behold.
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« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2013, 12:45:35 PM »

As I have said plenty of times I do not accept ANY of the later Roman synods as ecumenical, and - by the way - neither does the Melkite Catholic Patriarch or the Melkite Synod.

So Melkite Patriarchs attend those Councils, debate there, sign the papers and then say they do not accept them? So why do  they go there?
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« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2013, 12:46:42 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations.

Entering communion with Rome, and by implication accepting all of Rome's dogmas, is not a Latinization. You can remove all the Latinizations you want- your church will still be in communion with the Pope, and therefore under him. There is no other way that you can be in communion with the Papal supremacists. If you really rejected Papal supremacy, you could not be in communion with Rome. You have already admitted that Rome picks bishops for you and that the Zoghby declaration was therefore just a bunch of impotent noise. That is not a Latinization- that is simply domination, which you willingly accept, despite all your contentions to the contrary. The proof is in the pudding, or, in this case, the eucharist. Every time you commune at a Melkite church, you are swallowing Papal supremacy, infallibilty, filioque, and all the other junk you rant against quite uselessly on internet forums.
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« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2013, 12:47:19 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations. How is that a denial. Just because I refuse to leave my Church to make you happy? I intend to stay in the Melkite Church and work for the removal of Latinizations.

The problem is Latinisations in theology are what differs Melkites from the Orthodox. There wouldn't be any Melkites if your theology was Orthodox because you would be Orthodox.
Wow, you really do like to beat a dead horse. I have already admitted that the Melkite Church suffers from Latinizations. Tell me something I do not know.

As I have said many times, I am for the complete removal of all Latinizations from the Melkite Church (and the other Eastern Catholic Churches too).
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« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2013, 12:49:15 PM »

Man, denial is a hell of a drug...
No denial, I have admitted that my Church suffers from Latinizations.

Entering communion with Rome, and by implication accepting all of Rome's dogmas, is not a Latinization. You can remove all the Latinizations you want- your church will still be in communion with the Pope, and therefore under him. There is no other way that you can be in communion with the Papal supremacists. If you really rejected Papal supremacy, you could not be in communion with Rome. You have already admitted that Rome picks bishops for you and that the Zoghby declaration was therefore just a bunch of impotent noise. That is not a Latinization- that is simply domination, which you willingly accept, despite all your contentions to the contrary. The proof is in the pudding, or, in this case, the eucharist. Every time you commune at a Melkite church, you are swallowing Papal supremacy, infallibilty, filioque, and all the other junk you rant against quite uselessly on internet forums.
The pope is in communion with my Church. None of the members of the Melkite Church living today "entered into communion with Rome." That the pope chooses to be in communion with us is fine by me, as long as he minds his own business. But when he appoints our hierarchs in the diaspora, I protest against it, and I support our Patriarch and our Synod in their calls for such things to stop.
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« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2013, 12:49:54 PM »

Nice to see that you know how to use the copy and paste function, but I can copy and paste things too, for example the following from Melkite Catholic Archbishop Zoghby (of blessed memory), who said: "In any case, valid or not, Vatican I has the same designation as the Council of Lyons, a 'general' synod of the West. With this designation it is neither ecumenical nor infallible and could produce only theological opinions that can not be imposed on anyone." [Archbishop Elias Zoghby, "Ecumenical Reflections"]

As I have said plenty of times I do not accept ANY of the later Roman synods as ecumenical, and - by the way - neither does the Melkite Catholic Patriarch or the Melkite Synod.

So they place themselves in direct opposition to the Anathemas declared by the Church of Rome? What in God's Green Earth is the point of remaining in Communion with Rome?
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