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jewish voice
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« on: May 19, 2013, 06:53:28 AM »

Start so early. all the Orthodox Church's in my area start at like 8 or 9 am I think they would push it back to 7 am if they could but why is it so early. most other church's are not till 10 or 11. Is their a reason for Liturgy to be this early or is it to just get it done and out of the way so you can get on with your day.
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 07:03:11 AM »

Finnish liturgies  start 10am on sundays and 9am on other days but I think we're an exception on global scale. At least I've understood that EO liturgies tend start earlier than in other churches. Perhaps it has something to do with the liturgical cycle of the day?
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2013, 07:14:07 AM »

In the UK there's a wide variety of timetables. Some parishes share church buildings with RC or Anglican congregations and have to wait until those services are over before starting. If the parish congregation is very scattered and have long drives, they may start later to give everyone time to get there. The climate can be a factor as well - avoiding drives in the dark and/or in sub-zero temperatures.
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 11:23:46 AM »

Is their a reason for Liturgy to be this early

Eucharistic fast.
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 12:08:25 PM »

Is their a reason for Liturgy to be this early

Eucharistic fast.
I'm guessing you mean not eating the night or day before. makes sense but couldn't you just sleep in  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »

Is their a reason for Liturgy to be this early

Eucharistic fast.
I'm guessing you mean not eating the night or day before. makes sense but couldn't you just sleep in  Smiley
Loue not sleepe, lest thou come to pouertie: open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread. -Proverbs 20:13 Wink
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 01:01:03 PM »

9am is "early"? 
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2013, 01:12:31 PM »

9am is "early"? 
when everyone else is at 11 am 9am is early no. I was just wondering why
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 01:21:44 PM »

Everyone else does not have Liturgy that lat 1:20 at least.
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 01:33:20 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 01:34:48 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2013, 01:37:25 PM »

Everyone else does not have Liturgy that lat 1:20 at least.
Mass is just about as long I have been to both really not much difference beside a few words and one sits more than the other.
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2013, 01:38:44 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2013, 01:41:22 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.
so you saying it should be 7am then
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2013, 01:51:20 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.

How widespread is this beyond the "Greek" tradition?  In all the Oriental traditions, and in my limited experience with the Slavic traditions, Liturgy begins after the prayer of the Sixth Hour.  That's noon...10am is pretty early.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2013, 01:54:30 PM »

sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Sleepyhead that I am, I will not agree with this as a general practice. 

Orthodox practice is for a priest not to celebrate more than one Liturgy on one altar in a single day.  The Lord is one, the sacrifice is one, the Church is one, the community is one, so we worship as one.   
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2013, 02:36:18 PM »

According to my recollection the Divine Liturgy should take place between the First Hour (0600 hrs) and the Sixth Hour (1200 hrs). And Arimethea is quite correct as far as the Greek usage is concerned.
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2013, 02:53:33 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.

How widespread is this beyond the "Greek" tradition?  In all the Oriental traditions, and in my limited experience with the Slavic traditions, Liturgy begins after the prayer of the Sixth Hour.  That's noon...10am is pretty early.  Wink

The typicon for both Greek and Slavic traditions is the same on when Liturgy is to take place, and is followed in the monastic tradition of both. What you see happen in a parish setting is an accommodation to get the most people possible at the Liturgy. 
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2013, 04:10:53 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.

How widespread is this beyond the "Greek" tradition?  In all the Oriental traditions, and in my limited experience with the Slavic traditions, Liturgy begins after the prayer of the Sixth Hour.  That's noon...10am is pretty early.  Wink

The typicon for both Greek and Slavic traditions is the same on when Liturgy is to take place, and is followed in the monastic tradition of both. What you see happen in a parish setting is an accommodation to get the most people possible at the Liturgy. 

That's true that Greeks and Arabis begin the Liturgy immediately after the Great Doxology, however, as Mor Ephrem mentioned, between the Matins and Liturgy there are hours. And I know that Greeks and Arabs shorten Matins (I mean they do not have any litany after the Great Doxology and the 1st hour as we have) and in typical parishes they do not have also hours.

Personally, I prefer later Liturgies on Sunday (as e.g second Liturgy in my parish starts at 10) to have more sleep, but on weekdays at 7 or something like that, to just be able to attend it. Of course I don't count Great Lent, Holy Week and some other special occasions.
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2013, 04:17:35 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.

How widespread is this beyond the "Greek" tradition?  In all the Oriental traditions, and in my limited experience with the Slavic traditions, Liturgy begins after the prayer of the Sixth Hour.  That's noon...10am is pretty early.  Wink

The typicon for both Greek and Slavic traditions is the same on when Liturgy is to take place, and is followed in the monastic tradition of both. What you see happen in a parish setting is an accommodation to get the most people possible at the Liturgy. 

Chapter 8 of the Slavonic typikon/Typikon of St. Sabbas of Jerusalem states that Liturgy on Sunday is to begin about the 3rd hour of the day (9am) so that the trapeza may be set at the 4th hour of the day (10am).  The 3rd and 6th hours are read "in advance" in the monastic ordo because the time of their normal serving is supplanted by the Liturgy.  
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2013, 04:31:15 PM »

That's true that Greeks and Arabis begin the Liturgy immediately after the Great Doxology, however, as Mor Ephrem mentioned, between the Matins and Liturgy there are hours. And I know that Greeks and Arabs shorten Matins (I mean they do not have any litany after the Great Doxology and the 1st hour as we have) and in typical parishes they do not have also hours.

The litany at the end of matins is always read, but silently. The difference comes from the Slavic practice of reading Matins in the evening. So in Slavic practice you lose Compline and the Midnight Office, while in Greek parish practice you lose the Hours.

In monasteries, however, it's quite common for the 1st Hour to be read in the Liturgy, during the Communion of the Clergy, and for the 3rd and 6th Hours to be read by the monks in their cells at the appropriate time. Alternatively, the 1st, 3rd and 6th Hours are read together after Matins.
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2013, 05:08:37 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canons don't allow more than one liturgy a day. At least not on the same altar.
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2013, 05:20:19 PM »

so you saying it should be 7am then

Not uncommon in the "old world."
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2013, 06:47:42 PM »

10am is quite late for the start of the Orthodox Liturgy.

If we look at from the liturgical cycle, Liturgy is prescribed to begin after the chanting of the Great Doxology in Orthros. The Great Doxology is suppose to begin at sunrise. So Liturgy would begin shortly after sunrise.

How widespread is this beyond the "Greek" tradition?  In all the Oriental traditions, and in my limited experience with the Slavic traditions, Liturgy begins after the prayer of the Sixth Hour.  That's noon...10am is pretty early.  Wink

The typicon for both Greek and Slavic traditions is the same on when Liturgy is to take place, and is followed in the monastic tradition of both. What you see happen in a parish setting is an accommodation to get the most people possible at the Liturgy. 

Chapter 8 of the Slavonic typikon/Typikon of St. Sabbas of Jerusalem states that Liturgy on Sunday is to begin about the 3rd hour of the day (9am) so that the trapeza may be set at the 4th hour of the day (10am).  The 3rd and 6th hours are read "in advance" in the monastic ordo because the time of their normal serving is supplanted by the Liturgy.  

Out of curiosity I am wonder which edition you are quoting out of? I just took a look at my copy of Venice 1545, and just like the two copies of the Great Church Typikon, the subject of Sunday services are both covered in the first section. In all these editions the assumption is that the Liturgy is the completion of a true all-night monastic vigil.
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2013, 07:14:43 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canons don't allow more than one liturgy a day. At least not on the same altar.

and not by the same person...even if he is a Bishop
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2013, 07:20:07 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canons don't allow more than one liturgy a day. At least not on the same altar.

and not by the same person...even if he is a Bishop

Well, a bishop can allow any priest (even himself) to do it in extreme circumstances.
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2013, 07:21:49 PM »

Start so early. all the Orthodox Church's in my area start at like 8 or 9 am I think they would push it back to 7 am if they could but why is it so early. most other church's are not till 10 or 11. Is their a reason for Liturgy to be this early or is it to just get it done and out of the way so you can get on with your day.

LOL, get it done and out of the way?  Have you ever been to DL?  My parish starts Orthros at 9, same time as my wife's Methodist Church's service.  I am done w/ church around 1pm, she is home and done eating by the time I get home.  If we started it at 11, I wouldn't get home until 3!
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2013, 06:44:22 PM »

In the Coptic tradition it is against the canons to have the Liturgy end past noon on Sundays and feast days, since there is no fasting on these days, so Communion has to be done before noon. We start the raising of incense around 8, and finish the Liturgy by 11:15-11:30 outside of lent, 11:30-12:00 in Lent. Some start at 9 and are not so strict in making sure it is ended by noon, but technically it should be.  So for us, there is very little room for adjustment on a start time, since the only alternative is to go very early in the morning when people aren't likely to come (though if there are two liturgies, the first one will usually be at 6:00 or so and and by 9 for the next one to end by noon).

During Lent, the Liturgy should be prayed in the afternoon to allow people to fast, but when a feast day, like Annunciation comes, the Liturgy is done early in the morning since strict abstinence (no food and drink) is not allowed even when fasting (from animal products) is maintained.

Do EO have a similar prohibition, or is fasting permitted on Sundays?
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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2013, 06:48:37 PM »

I don't know if there is a canon on that or not in EO, but after DL, we go up and get a blessing from the priest which takes awhile and then we have the catechumen's class.
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2013, 07:14:51 PM »

In the Coptic tradition it is against the canons to have the Liturgy end past noon on Sundays and feast days, since there is no fasting on these days, so Communion has to be done before noon. We start the raising of incense around 8, and finish the Liturgy by 11:15-11:30 outside of lent, 11:30-12:00 in Lent. Some start at 9 and are not so strict in making sure it is ended by noon, but technically it should be.  So for us, there is very little room for adjustment on a start time, since the only alternative is to go very early in the morning when people aren't likely to come (though if there are two liturgies, the first one will usually be at 6:00 or so and and by 9 for the next one to end by noon).

During Lent, the Liturgy should be prayed in the afternoon to allow people to fast, but when a feast day, like Annunciation comes, the Liturgy is done early in the morning since strict abstinence (no food and drink) is not allowed even when fasting (from animal products) is maintained.

Do EO have a similar prohibition, or is fasting permitted on Sundays?
The Eucharistic fast is always maintained - generally understood as from midnight preceding the receiving of Communion. A few years ago because of our need to rent facilities our Liturgy would begin at 3 or even 4 pm on Sunday, we were allowed a light breakfast - within any fasting requirements, of course, for Lent and the other fasting seasons - so long as we maintained a strict (i.e. total) fast for at least six hours. In my understanding, other feast days would follow the same pattern as for Sundays.
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 07:31:13 PM »

My Antiochian parish has Matins at approximately 9:30, and Liturgy starts about 10:30. It's nice, but I could see an early Liturgy being nice too.
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2013, 08:05:20 PM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canon law states that you can only have one Liturgy per altar every 24 hours and most Orthodox Churches aren't as wealthy as Roman Catholic Churches and thus cannot afford to have more than one altar in the parish.
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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »

Never mind that two altar tables only keeps the letter of the law and not its spirit. But in exceptional and necessary cases the canon was made for man, not man for the canon.
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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2013, 05:17:12 AM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canon law states that you can only have one Liturgy per altar every 24 hours and most Orthodox Churches aren't as wealthy as Roman Catholic Churches and thus cannot afford to have more than one altar in the parish.

Many here do. Some parishes even have multiple churches.
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2013, 07:32:36 AM »

I know I'm a minority in the Orthodox world, but personally, I'd prefer a late morning Liturgy.  They are typically earlier because of the Eucharistic fast, so I'll wake up and suffer with those who are eager to eat, but I and like minded people are eager to sleep, and no one thinks to starve with us.  Smiley
sleeping in sounds great why can't they hold two like the Rc do

Canon law states that you can only have one Liturgy per altar every 24 hours and most Orthodox Churches aren't as wealthy as Roman Catholic Churches and thus cannot afford to have more than one altar in the parish.

Not quite, the Liturgy of Holy Saturday and that of Pascha will normally be within 24 hours - it is only within the day itself. The limitation is not only of Altars, and Antimensions but also number of Priests to celebrate - regularly celebrating two Liturgies would also be too draining for a single choir etc...
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 07:35:13 AM »

9am is "early"? 

Given the choice, I'd prefer a 7am Liturgy.
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2013, 03:53:32 AM »

I have heard some of the largest churches have three altars, that is, one in center, and two on either side.

Would this be permissible with the orthodox? three communions, but in one church and liturgy... but three altars... and three priests... hmm...

if only the fathers went through every possibility...
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2013, 07:35:18 AM »

I have heard some of the largest churches have three altars, that is, one in center, and two on either side.

Would this be permissible with the orthodox? three communions, but in one church and liturgy... but three altars... and three priests... hmm...

if only the fathers went through every possibility...

One of the churches where I live has three altars, and it's not even a cathedral, but a reasonable-sized parish church. Not sure how often the side altars are used, though. Multiple altars are common in the "old countries", and not only in cathedrals. Even many village churches have two altars, allowing for an early and later liturgy.
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2013, 08:53:56 AM »

So I can catch the Manchester United game at 11am Eastern Time......

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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 10:52:41 AM »

Not sure how often the side altars are used, though. Multiple altars are common in the "old countries", and not only in cathedrals. Even many village churches have two altars, allowing for an early and later liturgy.

Though there is a trend toward having only one altar in a church, it's pretty common for Indian churches to have three altars: the main one in the center, and one on either side.  The side altars get more use in larger churches with more than one Liturgy scheduled for the day, but often enough they are consecrated but only used once or twice a year in a typical parish.  We have a rule that, if erecting more than one altar, the number has to be odd (three is the minimum if you're going to have more than one).     
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« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2013, 01:38:58 AM »

Considering we chant all prayers in both English and Arabic, we begin Orthos at 9:15AM and Divine Liturgy begins at 10:30 until 12:30. Memorial services, removal of crowns and churching all extend this time, as well. Personally, I've asked Father to push back Orthos to 8AM and Divine Liturgy to 9:15, simply so that I have more time during the day as opposed to spending an entire morning being unable to eat and waiting to leave to Church.

Just my two cents, though.
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2013, 12:30:51 PM »

Orthros/Matins usually starts at 9:00 or 9:15, with Liturgy starting at 10:00. However, in Greece, Orthros would begin at 8:00 or 8:30, and Liturgy would be whenever they get to it. You wouldn't leave till about 12:30 or 1:00.
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2013, 01:38:57 PM »

Check the Church schedule, in spite of the perception online that all parishes regularly schedule Orthos/Matins prior to Liturgy and that all of the faithful attend both services, that is not always the case. Some Dioceses are more rigorous than others, some priests more than others.
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2013, 02:08:45 PM »

so you saying it should be 7am then

Not uncommon in the "old world."

In the good ole US of A, it seems to me that 10AM is the most common start time.
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2013, 02:10:03 PM »

You wouldn't leave till about 12:30 or 1:00.

 Shocked I've never been to a Liturgy that went on after 11am, in town or country.
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