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Author Topic: Urgent help needed; possible RC convert  (Read 3879 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #180 on: October 20, 2013, 07:36:02 AM »

I think the Nestorian Church is pretty unlikely. I mean, there are only 100,000 alive.

What's the official minimum number of members required for a Church to be considered "possibly the One True Church™"? 
100,001

Lies, we all know that 100,002 is the limit

Not so. To quote the prophet Jerematic, 1000101010101010110012.
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« Reply #181 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" ibid., 59:14).

Ibid?

Oh you...

umm want another version? Is there something I'm missing?

I've never heard of a patristic work called Ibid....

That's the translation source. The quote is from St Cyprian on the unity of the Church. I provided the Latin and English version

Ibid implies that there was quote that preceded it, and that implies that the same boring old prooftext-lists have been plagiarized yet again.

"Has its source" is a bad translation of "Unde...exorta est." "From which unity shone" would be more faithful to the original.

"After all this, they yet in addition, having had a false bishop ordained for them by heretics, dare to set sail, and to carry letters from schismatic and profane persons to the chair of Peter, and to the principal church, whence the unity of the priesthood [sacerdotal unity] took its rise [or has its source]. They fail to reflect that those Romans are the same as those whose faith was publicly praised by the apostle, to whom unbelief [or error, heresy, perversion of faith] cannot have access. "
(Epistle 59:14; Giles, page 60)
The Monothelites had access to Pope Honorius.
debatable
Nope.  The Church has spoken in Ecumenical Council and rendered her infallible verdict.  The case is closed.

Debate is over.
as even maximus the confessor defensed him too.
He was mistaken.  Only a monk and not in Holy Orders, he had no cathedra to speak ex, and your "Magisterium" cannot claim him as its spokesman.

Honorius lost his case.  The case is closed.

Further the popes who succeeded Honorius said he was guilt of letting heresy spread, not of teaching it.
They were not there to make his case.  Nor could they reopen the case which the Church had closed.

Pope St. Agatho did not make the case for his predecessor Pope Honorius before he fell asleep in the Lord.  Nor did he make the case for Pope St. Martin speaking ex cathedra and closing the case at the Lateran Council of 649.  Instead, he acknowledged the Church had the last word.

He did testify of the Emperor convening the Sixth Ecumenical Council, which issued the last word and closed the case:
Quote
But we believe that Almighty God has reserved for the happy days of your gentleness the amending of these things, that filling on earth the place and zeal of our Lord Jesus Christ himself, who has vouchsafed to crown your rule, ye may judge just judgment for his Evangelical and Apostolical truth:  for although he be the Redeemer and Saviour of the human race yet he suffered injury, and bore it even until now, and inspired the empire of your fortitude, so that you should be worthy to follow the cause of his faith (as equity demanded, and as the determination of the Holy Fathers and of the Five General Synods decreed), and that you should avenge, through his guardianship, on the spurners of his faith, the injury done your Redeemer and Colleague in reigning, thus fulfilling magnanimously with imperial clemency that prophetic utterance with which David the King and Prophet, spake to God, saying, “The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.”  Wherefore having been extolled for so God-pleasing a zeal, he was deemed fit to hear that blessed word spoken by the Creator of all men, “I have found David, a man after my heart, who will do all my will.”  And to him also it was promised in the Psalms, “I have found David, my servant, with my holy oil have I anointed him:  My hand shall aid him and my arm shall comfort him,” so that the most pious majesty of your Christian clemency may work to further the cause of Christ with burning zeal for the sake of remuneration, and may he make all the acts of your most powerful empire both happy and prosperous, who hath stored up his promise in the Holy Gospels, saying, “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.”  For all, to whom has come the knowledge of the sacred heads [i.e. Imperial Edicts], have been offering innumerable thanksgivings and unceasing praises to the defender of your most powerful dominion, being filled with admiration for the greatness of your clemency, in that you have so benignly set forth the kind intention of your august magnanimity; for in truth, as most pious and most just princes, you have deigned to treat divine things with the fear of God, having promised every immunity to those persons sent to you from our littleness.
And we are confident that what your pious clemency has promised, you are powerful to carry out, in order that what has been vowed and promised to God by the religious philanthropy beyond your Christian power, may nevertheless be fulfilled by the aid of His omnipotency.
Wherefore let praise by all Christian nations, and eternal memory, and frequent prayer be poured forth before the Lord Christ, whose is the cause, for your safety, and your triumphs, and your complete victory, that the nations of the Gentiles, being impressed by the terror of the supernal majesty, may lay down most humbly their necks beneath the sceptre of your most powerful rule, that the power of your most pious kingdom may continue until the ceaseless joy of the eternal kingdom succeeds to this temporal reign.  Nor could anything be found more likely to commend the clemency of your unconquerable fortitude to the divine majesty, than that those who err from the rule of truth should be repelled and the integrity of our Evangelical and Apostolic faith should be everywhere set forth and preached...And may your most august serenity, for the affection and reverence which you bear to the Catholic and Apostolic right faith, receive the perfect reward of your pious labours from our Lord Jesus Christ himself, the ruler with you of your Christian empire, whose true confession you desire to preserve undefiled, because nothing in any respect has been neglected or omitted by your God-crowned clemency, which could minister to the peace of the churches, provided always that the integrity of the true faith was maintained:  since God, the Judge of all, who disposes the ending of all matters as he deems most expedient, seeks out the intent of the heart, and will accept a zeal for piety.  Therefore I exhort you, O most pious and clement Emperor, and together with my littleness every Christian man exhorts you on bended knee with all humility, that to all the God-pleasing goodnesses and admirable imperial benefits which the heavenly condescension has vouchsafed to grant to the human race through your God-accepted care, this also you would order, for the redintegration of perfect piety, to offer an acceptable sacrifice to Christ the Lord your fellow-ruler, granting entire impunity, and free faculty of speech to each one wishing to speak, and to urge a word in defence of the faith which he believes and holds, so that it may most manifestly be recognized by all that by no terror, by no force, by no threat or aversion any one wishing to speak for the truth of the Catholic and Apostolic faith, has been prohibited or repulsed, and that all unanimously may glorify your imperial (divinam) majesty, throughout the whole space of their lives for so great and so inestimable a good, and may pour forth unceasing prayers to Christ the Lord that your most strong empire may be preserved untouched and exalted.  The Subscription.  May the grace from above keep your empire, most pious lords, and place beneath its feet the neck of all the nations.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiii.v.html#fna_xiii.v-p27.1
The delegates from Old Rome still signed as delegates of Pope St. Agatho, although he had fallen asleep.

btw, the delegate of the Pope of Alexandria signed "Peter a presbyter and holding the place of the Apostolic See of the great city Alexandria."

Pope St. John II was elected during the Council, but was neither confirmed nor consecrated until almost a year after the Council had rendered the verdict against Pope Honorius and anathematized him.  In his subscription to the Acts of the Ecumenical Council Pope St. John II stated "We anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Sergius, ...and also Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted.";
Quote
in his letter to the Spanish King Erwig, he has: "And with them Honorius, who allowed the unspotted rule of Apostolic tradition, which he received from his predecessors, to be tarnished." To the Spanish bishops he explains his meaning: "With Honorius, who did not, as became the Apostolic authority, extinguish the flame of heretical teaching in its first beginning, but fostered it by his negligence."
Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07452b.htm#VI
and he instituted the oath every pope of Old Rome took from his day to after your schism from us, which "smites with eternal anathema the originators of the new heresy, Sergius, etc., together with Honorius, because he assisted the base assertion of the heretics.../...Together with Honorius, who added fuel to their wicked assertions..."

He could not lift the sentence and reopen the case, but he didnt' even attempt to.

The case was, and is, closed, as the Church has spoken.

Thirdly anathemas to persona are not infallible,

Arius and Nestorius are no doubt pleased you think so.
only anathemas to doctrines.
is that ex cathedra de fide?

"The holy and Ecumenical Synod further says, this pious and orthodox Creed of the Divine grace would be sufficient for the full knowledge and confirmation of the orthodox faith.  But as the author of evil, who, in the beginning, availed himself of the aid of the serpent, and by it brought the poison of death upon the human race, has not desisted, but in like manner now, having found suitable instruments for working out his will (we mean Theodorus, who was Bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul and Peter, who were Archbishops of this royal city, and moreover, Honorius who was Pope of the elder Rome, Cyrus Bishop of Alexandria, Macarius who was lately bishop of Antioch, and Stephen his disciple), has actively employed them in raising up for the whole Church the stumbling-blocks of one will and one operation in the two natures of Christ our true God, one of the Holy Trinity; thus disseminating, in novel terms, amongst the orthodox people, an heresy similar to the mad and wicked doctrine of the impious Apollinaris, Severus, and Themistius, and endeavouring craftily to destroy the perfection of the incarnation of the same our Lord Jesus Christ, our God, by blasphemously representing his flesh endowed with a rational soul as devoid of will or operation.  Christ, therefore, our God, has raised up our faithful Sovereign, a new David, having found him a man after his own heart, who as it is written, “has not suffered his eyes to sleep nor his eyelids to slumber,” until he has found a perfect declaration of orthodoxy by this our God-collected and holy Synod; for, according to the sentence spoken of God, “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them,” the present holy and Ecumenical Synod faithfully receiving and saluting with uplifted hands as well the suggestion which by the most holy and blessed Agatho, Pope of ancient Rome, was sent to our most pious and faithful Emperor Constantine, which rejected by name those who taught or preached one will and one operation in the dispensation of the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ who is our very God, has likewise adopted that other synodal suggestion which was sent by the Council holden under the same most holy Pope, composed of 125 Bishops, beloved of God, to his God-instructed tranquillity, as consonant to the holy Council of Chalcedon and to the Tome of the most holy and blessed Leo, Pope of the same old Rome, which was directed to St. Flavian, which also this Council called the Pillar of the right faith; and also agrees with the Synodal Epistles which were written by Blessed Cyril against the impious Nestorius and addressed to the Oriental Bishops."-Definition of Faith of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

"And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines."-Sentence of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!-Acclamation of the Holy Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

"we overturned the tower built up by these followers of this most impious heresy; and we slew them with anathema, as lapsed concerning the faith and as sinners, in the morning outside the camp of the tabernacle of God, that we may express ourselves after the manner of David, in accordance with the sentence already given concerning them in your letter, and their names are these:  Theodore, bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Honorius, Cyrus, Paul, Pyrrhus and Peter."-Letter of the Holy Father of the Sixth Ecumenical Council in response to the letter of Pope St. Agatho to them.

"We affirm that in Christ there be two wills and two operations according to the reality of each nature, as also the Sixth Synod, held at Constantinople, taught, casting out Sergius, Honorius, Cyrus, Pyrrhus, Macarius, and those who agree with them, and all those who are unwilling to be reverent."-Preamble of the Definition of the Faith of the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

The Holy Spirit with the Church has spoken. The case is closed.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #182 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

I gave you the source. That's as specific as I can be. All places I see the quote provide the same source and volume number.

Don't you think that cherrypicking quotes from a pre-fabricated list, that have been pulled out of context by biased apologists, is a bad way of trying to understand the Fathers?

Taking quotes in entirety are not a bad thing at all. It would be problematic If the only thing quoted was a few verses. But full paragraphs give a good idea of what is being said. Of course knowledge of what the epistle, book or whatever manuscript is addressing is important as well as historical context. I can tell you for sure, the maximus quote are well within the context and mean what is written. But look, I've seen many people play down evidence even when blatantly against them, in order to uphold beliefs.
Seen?  You've shown.
I just find it shocking that orthodox Christians have a hard time admitting certain writings are in favor of Rome.
We have no problem with certain writings in favor of Rome.  We just don't admit their Ultramontanist misinterpretation.

Let alone Ultramontanist outright forgeries, e.g. "The Donation of Constantine."

Where as a lot of Catholics from what I've seen on CAF are ready to admit when a quote or writing is against Catholic claims.
Of course they do.  They're upholding Ultramontanist claims, not the Catholic claims of the Orthodox Faith.

Challenge their Ultramontanist claims, and they get quite testy:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html

Intellectual honesty is needed when discussing the fathers.
Then follow our lead in that.
but like I said earlier, faith should not be built on a quote.
And yet you do: Matthew 16:18 the prooftext of prooftexting.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #183 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

debatable as even maximus the confessor defensed him too. Further the popes who succeeded Honorius said he was guilt of letting heresy spread, not of teaching it. Thirdly anathemas to persona are not infallible , only anathemas to doctrines.

Pope Honorius' letter to Sergius is undeniably monothelite.

That's what was said about Leos tome. It Ws apparently Nestorian.

Alas just like the Tome of Leo, the letter to sergius can be read in an orthodox light. Maximus highlights this. Further who would know better what was meant than the author himself? Yet in his life honorius neve r claimed to accept the monothelitism as this was against roman tradition.

I guess its how you read the documents
The Fathers of the Council of Chalcedon examined the Tome of Pope St. Leo I, and found it was not Nestorian.  Note, btw, that they examined it, they did not accept it because Pope St. Leo said so (though he wanted them to).

The Fathers of the Council of Constantinople III read the letter to Sergius and found it Monothelite.

Alas! for you.  It depends on how the Church reads the documents.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #184 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

Alas just like the Tome of Leo, the letter to sergius can be read in an orthodox light. [...] I guess its how you read the documents

The letter abused St. Sophronius for fighting monothelitism. I don't know how one could possibly read something like that in an orthodox light.
LOL. Don't you know that the Supreme Pontiff can perform all sorts of miracles?  He can, for instance, proclaim as the preaching of the Apostles something they never dreamed of, nearly two millenia after they fell asleep in the Lord.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

The post about languages makes perfect sense.

if a thing is untrustworthy, probably a forgery or didn't exist at all,  simply because its extent in another language other than the original... Then with such logic, the gospel of Matthew , which was written in Hebrew according to tradition... Probably is a forgery and untrustworthy or probably was never written by Matthew to begin with all because what exists today is a Greek "copy" of the gospel of Matthew, not even in the original tongue.
There is no original Greek of the "Donation of Constantine," and it is still a forgery.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

I think the Nestorian Church is pretty unlikely. I mean, there are only 100,000 alive.

What's the official minimum number of members required for a Church to be considered "possibly the One True Church™"? 

144,000
13
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2013, 05:00:03 PM »

Cavaradossi I will reply to you as soon as I get the time. I'm writing exams right now so kind of occupied with my books. Isa on the other hand, well you are a special one. I'll leave you alone for the sake of my sanity.
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« Reply #188 on: October 21, 2013, 03:09:34 AM »

Cavaradossi I will reply to you as soon as I get the time. I'm writing exams right now so kind of occupied with my books. Isa on the other hand, well you are a special one. I'll leave you alone for the sake of my sanity.
Yes, the reverberations that can be amplified in cognitive dissonance when the sound of truth's voice pierces the echo chamber can disturb some.

Quote
"To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!"
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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