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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2013, 11:34:27 AM »

I don't see how it defies logic, since it is the bond of love and not a specific hierarch who keeps the Church together. And if it is the job of the Papacy to keep the Church united it didn't work very well (see the 30.000+ denominations that the Reformation spawned).

And this...

Yet it defies logic for Christ to set up a church with a hierarchy but not to have a visible leader too.

Hence the Bishop of Rome is called Vicar of Christ

...is a good example of the non sequitur-fallacy.
What is fallacious is to argue that Catholics do not believe Christ is the head of the Church.
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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2013, 11:35:33 AM »

I never said that.
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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2013, 11:36:46 AM »

I never said that.
No, you didn't. I am running on only about two hours of sleep. Apologies.
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2013, 11:37:26 AM »

I never said that.
No, you didn't. I am running on only about two hours of sleep. Apologies.

It's OK  Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2013, 11:57:29 AM »

It is the patristic teaching of St. Irenaeus, St. Leo and the council of Chalcedon that on account of Romes Secular Status of imperial center, she has received the Primacy.

St. Irenaeus says:

"as it would be very tedious to enumerate in such a work the succession of all the Churches, we will trace that of the very great and very ancient Church and known of all, which was founded and established at Rome by the two very glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul; which possesses a tradition that comes from the Apostles as much as the Faith declared to men, and which has transmitted it to us through the succession of her Bishops; by that, we confound all those who in any manner whatsoever, either through blindness or bad intention, do not gather where they should; for every Church, that is to say, the faithful who are from all places, are obliged to go toward [convenire] that Church, because of the most powerful principality. In this Church, the tradition of the Apostles has been preserved by those who are of all countries."

Apologists for the Roman papacy always invoke this passage of St Irenaeus as if it settles the matter.  It's tempting, because Irenaeus was the spiritual "grandson", if you will, of the apostle St John, so such a view can claim antiquity if accurate.  But what does this quote really demonstrate?  It's no surprise, really, that Irenaeus, himself a bishop in the West, would look to the only Western Church with apostolic origins and foundation, the Church which is also in the most important city of the Empire, as a standard against which to compare.  You might be able to argue a primacy in the West from Irenaeus based on apostolicity, but in the East?  "Apostolic sees" are a dime a dozen in the East: St Thomas himself can be linked to the Churches of Persia, India, and (through the apostles SS Bartholomew and Thaddeus), the Church in Armenia, and he's just one of the Twelve. 

For St Irenaeus, it is important for any local Church to be a faithful steward of the faith handed down from the apostles.  To this end, it is not just the Church of Rome about which he speaks:

Quote
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,— a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles—that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

Against Heresies, 3.3.4
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

And yet, there is no "Ephesine primacy". 

Irenaeus is contrasting the various heretics and their "churches" with the Church of Christ, existing in many places of diverse cultures, but preserving the same faith and tradition handed down by the apostles.  In the West, of course attention will be paid to Rome.  But it's not so much about Peter for Irenaeus, it's about the apostles. 

Quote
The faithful would convene at Rome because it was the imperial center, and as such men from all nations, and therefore every apostolic tradition, would arrive and go to the Church of Rome which retained these traditions of the apostles from every country.

How do you mean?

I won't address the rest of your post (re: Leo of Rome, Chalcedon, etc.) because I'd prefer to see the EO answer it.  It is not an uncommon feeling among the OO that "papal supremacy" began in the fifth century with Leo, and got a boost from the Chalcedonian East (even if they later came to reject it).  As you lay it out, it's difficult for me to see how the OO are unjustified in having such feelings.  But perhaps there's more to it than what you have said. 
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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2013, 11:58:58 AM »

The "First" in the Church is Christ, not the bishop who lives close to the Tiber.

Straw Man  Roll Eyes

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the head too. Yet it defies logic for Christ to set up a church with a hierarchy but not to have a visible leader too. Hence the Bishop of Rome is called Vicar of Christ , the visible head of the bishops and church so too as Peter was head of the apostles.

How so? If Christ's Church is moved by the Spirit of God, there is no reason to have infallible authority over the Church. If the Pope was indeed necessary to be part of the 'Catholic Church' for 1000 years, why isn't it so clearly spelled out in the councils? 'Anathema is on those who deny the authority of the Holy Apostolic See, upon which Christ built His Church and gave the power to bind and loose.' That's not in the Ecumenical councils, and considering the Church's authority was being overturned during the time that the councils were convened, if the Pope of Rome was necessary to keep order and authority in the early Church, why wasn't his authority mentioned so clearly?
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« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2013, 12:05:13 PM »

I've read many Orthodox writers on this subject and the consensus seems to be that they're not so much opposed to the basic idea of the Pope as the "first among equals" (the equals being the other Patriarchs) but more opposed to the growing amount of authority given to the Pope over the centuries. Just *having* a Pope, to settle disputes and cast the deciding vote in councils, etc. does not seem to have been a huge problem for the original Christians.
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« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2013, 12:22:15 PM »

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but the Church in Jerusalem is the mother church.

Not Mother in the sense as original church but mother in the sense of one who takes care of the family. Various fathers called Rome the mother of all churches and the source of sacerdotal unity.

Quote
 And no, a bishop rules a diocese as he sees fit.  If problems arise, there are local councils.  Brother bishops help one another and admonish errant bishops, but don't interfere as they see fit.  

Yet even this is not enough sometimes. Then you need a leader for that. So too as there must be a leader of the faithful at each parish (priest), and so with a diocese (bishop), same with major geographic regions (patriarch) , the same applies for the church (Head Bishop).

God does not change. So too in the Old testament priesthood there was a hierarchy with the High Priest as head, so too the priesthood today has Peter as its head, Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2013, 12:23:21 PM »

There is no evidence indicating which Apostle presided over the council. When St. Peter started talking the debate ended. There was clearly some deference to Peter.I'm not saying this proves that Peter was the Prince of the Apostles. All I am saying is that the Council of Jerusalem does not give enough evidence to argue either the Eastern Orthodox or the Catholic position.

If Acts 15 truly does not give enough evidence to argue either the EO or RC position, very well.  But let's stick to what Scripture says and not misrepresent it.  It doesn't at all imply what I bolded above.  It merely says:

Quote
Acts 15

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”  

Perhaps the debate had already ended when Peter decided to speak, or the above could simply mean that a lot of debating went on before Peter presented his view.  But it's certainly not the case that Peter's intervention is what stopped the debate; you have to read that into the text if you want it to be there, just as you have to read "deference" into it.  

And none of this stops me from affirming Peter as foremost among the apostles.    
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« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2013, 12:24:24 PM »

So too in the Old testament priesthood there was a hierarchy with the High Priest as head, so too the priesthood today has Peter as its head, Bishop of Rome.

You haven't gotten around to Hebrews, have you? 
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« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM »

Orthodoxy has a High Priest.

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« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2013, 12:29:36 PM »

So too in the Old testament priesthood there was a hierarchy with the High Priest as head, so too the priesthood today has Peter as its head, Bishop of Rome.

You haven't gotten around to Hebrews, have you? 

I've read the letter to the Hebrews. Why bring it up?
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« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »

Orthodoxy has a High Priest.



So I guess you are alleging that or at least inferring that Catholicism doesn't believe Christ to be our head? The high priest in the order of Melchizedek?
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« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2013, 12:33:09 PM »

So I guess you are alleging that or at least inferring that Catholicism doesn't believe Christ to be our head? The high priest in the order of Melchizedek?

No. I'm suggesting that we don't need more than one High Priest.
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« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2013, 12:35:17 PM »

So too in the Old testament priesthood there was a hierarchy with the High Priest as head, so too the priesthood today has Peter as its head, Bishop of Rome.

You haven't gotten around to Hebrews, have you? 

I've read the letter to the Hebrews. Why bring it up?

Quote from: Hebrews 7
20 This was confirmed with an oath; for others who became priests took their office without an oath, 21 but this one became a priest with an oath, because of the one who said to him,

‘The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest for ever”’—

22 accordingly Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he has no need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for those of the people; this he did once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests those who are subject to weakness, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect for ever.
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« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2013, 12:37:39 PM »

So I guess you are alleging that or at least inferring that Catholicism doesn't believe Christ to be our head? The high priest in the order of Melchizedek?

No. I'm suggesting that we don't need more than one High Priest.

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided
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« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2013, 12:40:02 PM »

So too in the Old testament priesthood there was a hierarchy with the High Priest as head, so too the priesthood today has Peter as its head, Bishop of Rome.

You haven't gotten around to Hebrews, have you? 

I've read the letter to the Hebrews. Why bring it up?

Quote from: Hebrews 7
20 This was confirmed with an oath; for others who became priests took their office without an oath, 21 but this one became a priest with an oath, because of the one who said to him,

‘The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest for ever”’—

22 accordingly Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he has no need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for those of the people; this he did once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests those who are subject to weakness, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect for ever.

Again, Catholicism doesn't deny this  Undecided nor is this against the catholic position of a vicar of Christ
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« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2013, 12:42:55 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.
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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2013, 12:45:43 PM »

There is no evidence indicating which Apostle presided over the council. When St. Peter started talking the debate ended. There was clearly some deference to Peter.I'm not saying this proves that Peter was the Prince of the Apostles. All I am saying is that the Council of Jerusalem does not give enough evidence to argue either the Eastern Orthodox or the Catholic position.

If Acts 15 truly does not give enough evidence to argue either the EO or RC position, very well.  But let's stick to what Scripture says and not misrepresent it.  It doesn't at all imply what I bolded above.  It merely says:

Quote
Acts 15

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”  

Perhaps the debate had already ended when Peter decided to speak, or the above could simply mean that a lot of debating went on before Peter presented his view.  But it's certainly not the case that Peter's intervention is what stopped the debate; you have to read that into the text if you want it to be there, just as you have to read "deference" into it.  

And none of this stops me from affirming Peter as foremost among the apostles.    
Fair enough. I concede that point.
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« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2013, 12:50:42 PM »

Yeah rereading Acts 15, I can see how it's indecisive either way. I guess I assumed St. James would've presided since it was his See and he gave the final verdict/decree.
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« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2013, 12:52:42 PM »

So I guess you are alleging that or at least inferring that Catholicism doesn't believe Christ to be our head? The high priest in the order of Melchizedek?

No. I'm suggesting that we don't need more than one High Priest.

And yet you know that Protestants use the same verses (from Hebrews) to prove that we don't need ANY priests. It's all in the interpretation.  Cool
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« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2013, 12:58:45 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
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« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2013, 01:00:00 PM »

So I guess you are alleging that or at least inferring that Catholicism doesn't believe Christ to be our head? The high priest in the order of Melchizedek?

No. I'm suggesting that we don't need more than one High Priest.

And yet you know that Protestants use the same verses (from Hebrews) to prove that we don't need ANY priests. It's all in the interpretation.  Cool

exactly... Maybe we should all become protestant I guess. I pick evangelical Grin
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« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2013, 01:00:52 PM »

Somehow I have a feeling we won't be able to sort our the problem of Orthodox vs. Catholic Ecclesiology in this thread.  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2013, 01:23:33 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.
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« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2013, 01:31:47 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar:

Quote from: Matthew 28:20
Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2013, 01:32:45 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar:

Quote from: Matthew 28:20
Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Amen!
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« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2013, 01:45:39 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.

Umm What Catholicism do you know? Huh
The Pope can neither change nor innovate doctrine. He can't go against tradition and is subject to it. This argument is a straw man  Embarrassed
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« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2013, 01:47:50 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

Quote from: Matthew 28:20
Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Amen. Catholics believe in the bible too , in case you didn't know Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2013, 01:48:38 PM »

It's all in the interpretation.  Cool

It always is, I guess.
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« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2013, 01:49:25 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

St. Peter wasn't a vicar of Christ.
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« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2013, 01:54:41 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

St. Peter wasn't a vicar of Christ.

But he was as he was head. And any head that is not the true head is vicar of the true head...so logic follows
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« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2013, 01:55:28 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

So that the sacerdotal power of the Church flowed first from Christ to St. Peter, and then to the apostles, that the unity of the Church and the episcopacy is preserved in the type of Peter, who is made manifest to all pastors of the Church.
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« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2013, 01:59:43 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

St. Peter wasn't a vicar of Christ.

But he was as he was head. And any head that is not the true head is vicar of the true head...so logic follows

No, the logic does not follow. He is not the vicar of the head, because the head, Christ, is truly present in him, who is a type of the episcopacy and of the whole Church. Christ did not leave a singular vicar because he dwells truly in all who have been ordained to the high priesthood, and in all who have been illumined through Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, and ascesis.
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« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2013, 02:05:41 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

It was a very personal thing: the betrayal, the rivalry with "the beloved disciple", "Do you love me more than these?" > "Feed my lambs".

No pope or bishop ever shared those experiences. As far as office is concerned, every bishop inherited the same apostolic authority of Peter - as St. Cyprian rightly observed.    

Quote from: Matthew 28:20
Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Amen. Catholics believe in the bible too , in case you didn't know Smiley Smiley

They just interpret it differently.  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2013, 02:10:31 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.

Umm What Catholicism do you know? Huh
The Pope can neither change nor innovate doctrine. He can't go against tradition and is subject to it. This argument is a straw man  Embarrassed

It's not a straw man. That's what the Catholic Church did. That's what Vicarious Atonement is, that's what Purgatory is. That's not Orthodox doctrine. Jews don't buy it either.
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« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2013, 02:13:48 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

So that the sacerdotal power of the Church flowed first from Christ to St. Peter, and then to the apostles, that the unity of the Church and the episcopacy is preserved in the type of Peter, who is made manifest to all pastors of the Church.

And according to St Cyprian, where is sacerdotal unity maintained and have its source?
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« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2013, 02:16:01 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.

Umm What Catholicism do you know? Huh
The Pope can neither change nor innovate doctrine. He can't go against tradition and is subject to it. This argument is a straw man  Embarrassed

It's not a straw man. That's what the Catholic Church did. That's what Vicarious Atonement is, that's what Purgatory is. That's not Orthodox doctrine. Jews don't buy it either.

Those doctrines have been taught long before the schism and are part of the western tradition. Or now is it the case that anything that conflicts the east is heresy?

The Jews have changed a lot of what they believe. Once upon a time they believed in demons,hell and a God man messiah. They aren't so reliable  Undecided
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« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2013, 02:21:03 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

St. Peter wasn't a vicar of Christ.

But he was as he was head. And any head that is not the true head is vicar of the true head...so logic follows

No, the logic does not follow. He is not the vicar of the head because the head, Christ, is truly present in him, who is a type of the episcopacy and of the whole Church. did not leave a singular vicar because he dwells truly in all who have been ordained to the high priesthood, and in all who have been illumined through Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, and ascesis.

In answer to the highlighted part, it does follow. A Vicar is one who stands in the place of the head when he is physically absent. And for all intents and purposes, the vicar is head.

with regards to the rest of what you wrote... Catholics believe all that..
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« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2013, 02:25:32 PM »

Interestingly enough, I recently found a critical edition of St. Cyprian's De Unitate Ecclesiae which included a somewhat different, undoubtedly interpolated, version that is found in only one manuscript. That version was more favorable to the Papacy and excluded, amongst others, the famous "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole" and added in more praise of St. Peter and the Pope. Even more interestingly, that version was called version one despite overwhelming evidence against its genuineness.

Then again, the editor was a Jesuit and he did sort of explain it in the footnotes, but still, it makes one wonder, what more could be interpolated about St. Peter?
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« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2013, 02:30:02 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

St. Peter wasn't a vicar of Christ.

But he was as he was head. And any head that is not the true head is vicar of the true head...so logic follows

No, the logic does not follow. He is not the vicar of the head because the head, Christ, is truly present in him, who is a type of the episcopacy and of the whole Church. did not leave a singular vicar because he dwells truly in all who have been ordained to the high priesthood, and in all who have been illumined through Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, and ascesis.

In answer to the highlighted part, it does follow. A Vicar is one who stands in the place of the head when he is physically absent. And for all intents and purposes, the vicar is head.

with regards to the rest of what you wrote... Catholics believe all that..

Christ is not absent. He is present as the sacrifice on the altar every time the liturgy is performed, and in the person of the Bishop or priest, He acts as high priest, empowering them to invoke the Holy Spirit and offer up this sacrifice. Furthermore He is present in all who eat his body and drink his blood, ever abiding in them, transforming them into his body. Perhaps your own ecclesial gathering heretically denies these things and teaches us that the Lord has abandoned his Church, but by faith, we know this not to be true, for we know that He shall forever be with his Church to the ages, not in some symbolic and disincarnate manner which necessitates that he leave a singular vicar, but in very truth, dwelling in those who draw nigh to his Sacred mysteries and partake of them.
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« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2013, 02:31:41 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

So that the sacerdotal power of the Church flowed first from Christ to St. Peter, and then to the apostles, that the unity of the Church and the episcopacy is preserved in the type of Peter, who is made manifest to all pastors of the Church.

And according to St Cyprian, where is sacerdotal unity maintained and have its source?

In St. Peter, the type of whom, according to Pope St. Leo in his fourth sermon, is proposed to all pastors of the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2013, 02:35:14 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.

Umm What Catholicism do you know? Huh
The Pope can neither change nor innovate doctrine. He can't go against tradition and is subject to it. This argument is a straw man  Embarrassed

It's not a straw man. That's what the Catholic Church did. That's what Vicarious Atonement is, that's what Purgatory is. That's not Orthodox doctrine. Jews don't buy it either.

Those doctrines have been taught long before the schism and are part of the western tradition. Or now is it the case that anything that conflicts the east is heresy?

The Jews have changed a lot of what they believe. Once upon a time they believed in demons,hell and a God man messiah. They aren't so reliable  Undecided

No those doctrines were not taught before the schism. The councils of Lyon and Florence were after the schism, as was Anselm of Canterbury.
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« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »

Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?

Because Christ does not need a Vicar

Then why make Peter head?

So that the sacerdotal power of the Church flowed first from Christ to St. Peter, and then to the apostles, that the unity of the Church and the episcopacy is preserved in the type of Peter, who is made manifest to all pastors of the Church.

And according to St Cyprian, where is sacerdotal unity maintained and have its source?

In St. Peter, the type of whom, according to Pope St. Leo in his fourth sermon, is proposed to all pastors of the Church.

St Cyprian of Carthage:

Post ista adhuc pseudoepiscopo sibi ab haereticis constituto nauigare audent, et ad Petri Cathedram adque ad ecclesiam principalem unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est ab schismaticis et profanis litteras ferre, nec cogitare eos esse Romanos, quorum fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est, ad quos perfidia habere non possit accessum


 With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" ibid., 59:14).
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« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2013, 02:45:23 PM »

Lol neither does Catholicism but alas Christ did have a head apostle (Today the euqal position would be a head bishop). For Christ set one to be his vicar. A visible head, a visible high priest. Or else your argument can extend to diocesan level and thus disqualify priesthood Undecided

In Orthodoxy, every bishop is high-priest (archiereus). The High Priest (kohen hagadol/ho megas archiereus) is Christ Himself forever.

So yet with all the evidence of Rome being head church and its bishop being head and in light of this information you just shared with me... Why is it hard to fathom a head of the Church? One who is vicar of the eternal head, Christ?
I'll just repeat what I said. If the Pope of Rome has the authority to change and innovate in matters of doctrine, Catholicism is true. Even if his innovations go against the historic teaching of the Church and of Judaism.

Umm What Catholicism do you know? Huh
The Pope can neither change nor innovate doctrine. He can't go against tradition and is subject to it. This argument is a straw man  Embarrassed

It's not a straw man. That's what the Catholic Church did. That's what Vicarious Atonement is, that's what Purgatory is. That's not Orthodox doctrine. Jews don't buy it either.

Those doctrines have been taught long before the schism and are part of the western tradition. Or now is it the case that anything that conflicts the east is heresy?

The Jews have changed a lot of what they believe. Once upon a time they believed in demons,hell and a God man messiah. They aren't so reliable  Undecided

No those doctrines were not taught before the schism. The council of Lyon was after the schism, as was Anselm of Canterbury.

Is St Augustine post schism?  Undecided Undecided  Undecided
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