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Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 5420 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2013, 11:23:36 PM »

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.
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« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2013, 01:02:36 AM »

Having been raised by an occult practitioner, I can say from experience that most folks are blissfully unaware of the stuff that really is out there.

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.
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« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2013, 01:09:31 AM »

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.

It must be the world we live in today where everything is considered acceptable except the things which really are.
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« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:17 AM »

You can't use that standard, Michał, because our canons do not operate in this fashion.  otherwise, you could make the same argument that there is no sin in watching internet porn because there are no canons specifically condemning the practice, yet every sane Orthodox knows that watching porn is a sin.

The canons do condemn divination:

St. Basil (Canon LXXXIII)- Those resorting to divination and continuing the usages of the heathen nations, or admitting certain persons into their homes with the view of discovering sorceries and purification, let them fall under the Canon of six years, one year weeping, and one year listening, and for three years co-standing among the faithful, then they shall be
accepted.


Dowsing is a form of pre-Christian divination.  It has been practiced for thousands of years.  Just because someone says that they invoke Christ in his work makes no difference: it is an attempt to harness unseen powers by 'mechanical' means as a type of 'prophesy.'  This is different from asking God for a sign and then actually waiting for a sign, and it is different from saying a prayer before commencing the digging of a well.

I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels. I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.
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« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2013, 05:15:51 AM »

I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels.

I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.

That would be the occult.
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« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2013, 05:24:03 AM »

I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

Nowadays, at today's level of awareness and knowledge.

Nonetheless, does the Church require us to be scientifically accurate? Hundreds of posts in the evolution thread say otherwise.

Quote
That would be the occult.

It would be nice if you provided some 1st hand opinions or opinions by Church people who know the issue well.
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« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2013, 05:32:02 AM »

I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

Nowadays, at today's level of awareness and knowledge.

Nonetheless, does the Church require us to be scientifically accurate? Hundreds of posts in the evolution thread say otherwise.

Quote
That would be the occult.

It would be nice if you provided some 1st hand opinions or opinions by Church people who know the issue well.
You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.
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« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2013, 05:33:50 AM »

You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.

Proofs?
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« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2013, 05:54:09 AM »

You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.

Proofs?

Since people are fond of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_magic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forteana#Fortean_phenomena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiesthesia


Here is a Roman Catholic perspective:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05048b.htm

This is the definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divination

Basically, just Google "origins of divination".
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« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2013, 09:46:13 AM »

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?


I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels. I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.
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« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.
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« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2013, 02:32:16 PM »

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.
...except blacksmiths don't walk around with a stick pretending it tells them where to hit the metal.  Wink
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« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2013, 08:27:11 PM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.
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« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2013, 08:46:09 PM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.
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« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2013, 10:18:04 PM »

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.
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« Reply #105 on: May 29, 2013, 05:33:46 AM »

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.


There are none, which has been proven time and again under scrutiny.
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« Reply #106 on: May 29, 2013, 05:35:59 AM »

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

A lot of folks have paid for voo-doo witch doctors to do things and this was their job. 
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« Reply #107 on: May 29, 2013, 05:36:45 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?
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« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2013, 07:10:20 AM »

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

I suggest reading from the beginning of the thread before asking such a question.  

What is the scientific basis for St. John of Damascus' belief that movements of stars and planets can be used to predict drought?

What is the scientific basis for the belief of many Fathers that the universe consists of a series of concentric spheres? Or St. Gregory Palamas' belief that the sphere of earth overlaps with the water sphere, resulting in 90% of the earth being inundated?
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« Reply #109 on: May 29, 2013, 07:26:20 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
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« Reply #110 on: May 29, 2013, 07:28:45 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?
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« Reply #111 on: May 29, 2013, 07:33:00 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.
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« Reply #112 on: May 29, 2013, 08:18:44 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.
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« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2013, 08:19:15 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Because to do so requires you to take a position that others can then examine.  The horrors!  Shocked
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« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2013, 08:29:04 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?
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« Reply #115 on: May 29, 2013, 08:37:14 AM »

There is a fundamental difference between blacksmiths and dowsers.  A blacksmith understands physics in that he knows if he hits the piece of metal a certain way, the forces will cause the metal to move in a certain direction. He knows the metal has to be heated to a certain degree in order to make it malleable. All that is physics.  There is an artistic element because he needs to have a picture in his mind of what he wants to make, but it is all physics that transforms the metal into the desired object.  God may bless him with the talents to be a good blacksmith, but God doesn't give him some mystical ability to shape metal with his mind.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.
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« Reply #116 on: May 29, 2013, 08:38:12 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  Additionally, your logic also fails if you have ever been paid for any task you have accomplished because having that ability is a blessing from God.

So, are you ever going to answer a question or continue to avoid them?
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« Reply #117 on: May 29, 2013, 08:50:17 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?
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« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2013, 08:54:06 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

It is only a "skill" if it is something that can be explained through natural means.  I don't see anyone here or anywhere else giving any remotely feasible explanation of how this "skill" works other than some supernatural explanation. In that way, it would be more closely related to a prophet than a blacksmith, and I'm pretty sure the Church frowns on prophets selling their prophecies.
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« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2013, 08:57:15 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".
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« Reply #120 on: May 29, 2013, 09:00:19 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

Witch Doctor is an occupation.  High Priest in the Church of Satan is an occupation.  Blacksmithing does not require an incantation and the trust of some power from beyond will guide the hammer to magically create something.  It is a skill set, an ability to learn that skill set and thrive at the work, a blessing from God.  Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.  But don’t take my word for it, read the Holy Scriptures.  This is explained, literally, throughout those scriptures.

Still not answering questions instead you continue to ask more.  I think, until you learn the give portion of give and take, I won’t answer any more of your questions.
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« Reply #121 on: May 29, 2013, 09:06:14 AM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".

Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

If there are EM fields, they would be discovered by sensors much more sensitive than humans w/ sticks.  I have no idea how hygroscopy could even be related to it unless you are just saying that people observe marshy areas, but that is simple observation, not "dowsing". Same with the other two that you mention.  If you are just saying that some people are observant at noticing where water lays on the ground, I have no problem with that, but to say that someone can mysteriously "know" that there are underground minerals or water in an area that has no exterior, visible evidence of that is just hocus pocus.
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« Reply #122 on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:14 AM »

Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.
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« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2013, 09:13:04 AM »

Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

All easily measurable and reproducible, however.
 
Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.

That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?
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« Reply #124 on: May 29, 2013, 09:16:04 AM »

That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?

Things that are natural and are not yet discovered or understood.
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« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2013, 09:26:49 AM »

Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

Um, no.
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« Reply #126 on: May 29, 2013, 09:28:55 AM »


Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.
Um, no.
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« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2013, 09:34:51 AM »

That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?

Things that are natural and are not yet discovered or understood.

But that is assuming they they actually work.  If dowsers had a success rate of 75% or something, I would agree with you.  All studies done have indicated they are no more successful than randomly selecting a place and drilling.  Obviously there are anecdotal stories of a dowser finding water, but I could do the same thing and hit water a certain percentage of the time as well.  That doesn't mean I'm gifted.  There is a huge confirmation bias that goes into dowsing and similar phenomena.
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« Reply #128 on: May 29, 2013, 09:52:31 AM »

It doesn't matter whether it's working or not. I do not care. The only one thing I care is would  it be considered magic. I think it wouldn't in most cases.
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« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2013, 10:29:18 AM »

Michał, the Church has never condemned science.  It is the study of natural law.

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

Now, you have to put dowsing into one of these categories because a force is at work and must have an origin.  If it is a Natural Force, then science would be able to measure it or lay the groundwork, since all of the forces you mentioned are indeed measurable by today's equipment.

If you say it is a Preternatural Force, then you are in the realm of angels and demons.  This is where witchcraft comes into play.

If you say that God Himself moves the rod, then the dowser is a prophet.  I don't think you are willing to go that far.

The blacksmith and the farmer use non-occult knowledge available to all men.  Technically, any able-bodied man can be a blacksmith or a farmer and use the principles that God has made available to all men.

A dowser is someone who markets a special access to unseen forces.

The reason I asked about the dowser selling his trade is that because the Church specifically condemns those who would sell Sacraments, which are the unseen powers of the Supernatural.  If a man has access to what is God's, and yet he sells his services, then he is in violation of a basic principle.

Yes, I am paid as a priest, but roughly half of the people who come to me for Sacraments don't pledge to the Church or give me a dollar.  I don't resent it, and I usually refuse 'trebi' because I don't want to stand before God with profiteering on my conscience.

The Holy Unmercinaries healed by God's grace rather than just medical principles, and so they are called 'unmercinary.'

Another aspect is one of 'reliability.'  If a dowser uses the principles of physical forces, then his work should be reliable because physics is not random.  Dowsing shows no such reliability in testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing#Scientific_appraisal).

If it is not physics, then it is not natural, which makes dowsing an Occult (Hidden) Art.

Clear-headedness is something you value in your Hyperdox Herman exploits.  Use it here, Michał. 



So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".
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« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2013, 10:36:51 AM »

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.
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« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2013, 10:39:04 AM »

OK, what is your division?  I want to understand how you are thinking, because right now it seems rather nebulous, yet you do appear to have some certainties.

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.
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« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2013, 12:54:11 PM »

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

It is only a "skill" if it is something that can be explained through natural means.  I don't see anyone here or anywhere else giving any remotely feasible explanation of how this "skill" works other than some supernatural explanation. In that way, it would be more closely related to a prophet than a blacksmith, and I'm pretty sure the Church frowns on prophets selling their prophecies.

Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.
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« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2013, 01:14:58 PM »

Quote
Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

Astrology = divination
Four Element Theory = an inadequate explanation that has been superceded by a better explanation
Humors = an inadequate explanation that has been superceded by a better explanation

There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science.  Dowing, astrology, etc, is not an example of bad science, it is an attempt to appeal to some supernatural power (whether it be good or evil) in an attempt to get information that only the supernatural being would have access to.  There is a big difference between asking God to help you find water and charging someone money to wander around with a stick hoping to access some "divine" power to get info. If it is real, it is witchcraft, if it is false, it is charlatanism.  Neither is good.
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« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2013, 01:31:57 PM »


Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.
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