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Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 5360 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 05:10:29 PM »

I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

Really?

What Faith is this church?

Just for the record, I believe that Michal was simply trying to make a point, and certainly not actually inferring that the Eucharist is "magic".  

He is, without a doubt, an Orthodox Christian and was simply trying to make a point using sarcasm.


The word magic isn't what bothered me.  It's that he said the people changed it.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 05:12:00 PM »


I know next to nothing about diving rods....but, the person who is doing the divining....are they saying prayers...asking for divine intersession....?

How do THEY think they are finding the water?

Certainly it's not the tree branch that is finding it alone...
My grandmother was a no kidding witch.  It's wrong regardless of what you THINK is going on.
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 05:27:38 PM »

The word magic isn't what bothered me.  It's that he said the people changed it.

Well, I guess that is a sticky subject.  If we put bread an wine on the altar and sat and looked at it for two hours, it would probably not change.  On the other hand,  if everyone stands around for two hours while people chant, sing, wear funny cloths and wave their hands over the bread and wine, then it changes.  Now granted, the Holy Spirit pays a large part in this.  But He seems to need the fancy cloths and hand waving and chanting for two hours to make it happen.  So, this is another one of the rare moments that MK and I agree.
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 07:23:00 PM »

Accordding to some posters here, there are only two methods of understanding world: the one of modern science, and the one of dubious magic. During Liturgy bread changes into the Body of Christ, doesn't it? On the other hand there are no scientific proofs for that. It means it must magic.

Or am I wrong in understanding that way of reasoning?

I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

My personal feeling is that it would be okay if a Priest and or Church authorized it's use.
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 07:32:08 PM »

I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

How are you sure people who practiced it didn't considered it a natural phenomena? I'm purposely not using the term "science" since scientific approach had not become the conventional one until the 2nd half of XXth century or so,
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« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2013, 06:45:30 PM »

I am not sure, that is why I said the encyclopedia said it was considered superstition. But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena? There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

Like I said though , I am not intolerant to using whatever works. I was curious if anyone has asked a preist or Church officials about this subject, course in that same point they also can be wrong as in the past over subjects of science.

In a similar vein , I am reading a Benjamin Franklin biography and was just reading the part of his invention of the lightning rod in 1752, and in it was something i never knew, that up until then, most Churches , which had tall steeples and so were susceptible to lightning strikes, would ring their bells in an effort to ward off( "God's Wrath") the lightning which they had no understanding of.

So in effect the church was condoning an act similar to divining, and which it was reported that over 100 bell ringers died in just the year before Franklin showed what lightning truly was made of and ended the problem with his "Lightning Rod" .

I am not implying that God does not exist or that we should not believe, but there are sometimes mistakes made by well intentioned people who refuse to listen, when it is God who wishes us to learn.
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2013, 05:50:32 AM »

I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

How are you sure people who practiced it didn't considered it a natural phenomena?

As I stated, it doesn't matter what people think about something.  What matters is what it is, its origins, etc.  If someone thinks God wants them to run around and kill innocent people, and they do it in the name of God, does it stop being wrong?  What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.
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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2013, 06:36:54 AM »

If someone thinks God wants them to run around and kill innocent people, and they do it in the name of God, does it stop being wrong? 

According to the Bible, it does at times.
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 06:37:40 AM »

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

Thank you for this.

I like to think you are being sincere and not clever. Don't ruin it for me.
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 08:38:42 AM »

I would hope that the Church would point out that dowsing has failed every time it has been tested under controlled conditions. Dowsing for water is no better then random chance. Why do ppl buy into superstition?
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 09:34:06 AM »

I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

What exactly constitutes "science" varies considerably over the centuries and between cultures. Many people throughout East Asia will insist that traditional Chinese medicine is science; but someone who thinks of science in the vein of Francis Bacon and Sir Isaac Newton will look at the theories about qi or the five phases and consider it to be "pseudo-science." Of course in our schools and society at large, it's this latter version of science which is taught as being the only true science. If that's the case, then most people today, and basically everyone prior to the 17th-18th centuries, was indulging in demonic superstitions, in which case it was not the Church who lifted us out of the worship of demons but the laboratory.
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 12:44:58 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 08:27:42 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?
Why?  I don't believe in magic itself, I believe in the powerful dark forces which work such things to make people believe in magic, the same magic we are forbidden to practice.  Harry Potter is entertainment, evil is real and active and dangerous.  It's no different than a ouija or a seance. 
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2013, 04:28:56 PM »

It's no different than a ouija or a seance. 

It's your personal opinion even not based on actual knowledge about the issue and how the Church perceived it.
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2013, 07:28:28 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.
You are similar to most people who think they are so much smarter than the ancients, in fact, there are many things they did, such as building the great pyramids that scientists today cannot duplicate even with modern machines.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".

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For other uses, see Archimedes (disambiguation).

Archimedes of Syracuse
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Archimedes Thoughtful by Fetti (1620)
Born   c. 287 BC
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Archimedes of Syracuse (Greek: Ἀρχιμήδης; c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) was a Greek mathematician, physicist, engineer, inventor, and astronomer.[1] Although few details of his life are known, he is regarded as one of the leading scientists in classical antiquity. Among his advances in physics are the foundations of hydrostatics, statics and an explanation of the principle of the lever. He is credited with designing innovative machines, including siege engines and the screw pump that bears his name. Modern experiments have tested claims that Archimedes designed machines capable of lifting attacking ships out of the water and setting ships on fire using an array of mirrors.[2]

Science, as Shakespeare would say , is just as accurate by any other name.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 07:43:31 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2013, 07:39:07 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2013, 08:27:46 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.

True, but most "(including me) still cannot do any of those things, but they were aware just as we are. Back in Newtons day the whole world knew about his revelations but only a few could ever read it. Still can't.

The point is that science was widespead from way back before christ, it was lost somewhat during the dark ages, even Columbus was aware of the ancvient Grssks calculations of the diameter of the Earth, but he chose to ignore it.

 Like so many who know what has been told and they choose to act as if they are wrong, just to further their own iideas, or religious doctrine. There are many who for instance, still today act as if we did not go to the moon.

Harvard University kept teaching the world is the center of the universe right up until the 1900s, because of church doctrine, but there were none who did not know about Newton and gravity.

Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod based on his experiments with electricity and lightning. Within a year it was known and being used around the world in 1752. So yes they did have science knowledge and everyone hailed Franklin as a genius all around the world wherever he went . Just as we did to Einstein in this generation.
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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »

It's no different than a ouija or a seance.  

It's your personal opinion even not based on actual knowledge about the issue and how the Church perceived it.

Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.


Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Acts 19:19
And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

2 Kings 21:6
And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Acts 8:9-13
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Ezekiel 13:18
And say, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the women who sew magic bands upon all wrists, and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature, in the hunt for souls! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?

Isaiah 47:12-14
Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed; perhaps you may inspire terror. You are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you, those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new moons make known what shall come upon you. Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!


Isaiah 19:3
And the spirit of the Egyptians within them will be emptied out, and I will confound their counsel; and they will inquire of the idols and the sorcerers, and the mediums and the necromancers;

Deuteronomy 18:9-14
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, ...
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2013, 09:08:23 PM »

But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.
I suggest you look around for a math book from 100-200 years ago and see if you can work out the problems.   Maybe then you will see how difficult it was then for the common people.  Their lives depended on getting this stuff right the first time.  Ours don’t.  We get to Monday morning quarterback as much as we like.  Ancient people were not dumb.  Illiterate perhaps, but not dumb.  Just look at Masonry, a common folk occupation.
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2013, 10:11:18 PM »

We only have the scientific knowledge now because we are standing on the backs of giants.  Many of those ancient thinkers would put our modern scientists to shame if they were alive today and have the resources that we do.  The vast majority of modern civilization has no functional knowledge over anyone else from the past 2500 years, we just benefit from what a few great minds have been able to accomplish.  We use electricity, but how many of us if we were sent back 1000 years would be able to figure out how to generate and use electricity?
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« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2013, 01:07:37 AM »

We only have the scientific knowledge now because we are standing on the backs of giants.  Many of those ancient thinkers would put our modern scientists to shame if they were alive today and have the resources that we do.  The vast majority of modern civilization has no functional knowledge over anyone else from the past 2500 years, we just benefit from what a few great minds have been able to accomplish.  We use electricity, but how many of us if we were sent back 1000 years would be able to figure out how to generate and use electricity?

Someone do that ancient alien picture thing . . . thanks.
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« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2013, 03:00:37 PM »

Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.
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« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2013, 09:24:06 PM »

Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.
Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.  Your opinion; however, has yet to be supported.  I hope you do as I enjoy learning and growing in comparison to quibbles with someone barely a man who seems to think every convert an imbecile (as you grow older you will learn differently). In other words, stop the childhood pop shots and back up your words.  If you can, great.  If not, silence is an honorable virtue.

I can provide definitions if you are unable to navigate Google.
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« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2013, 09:35:50 PM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP
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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2013, 11:31:50 PM »

Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

Point me the exact quote.

Quote
It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.

Prove it.

Quote
Your opinion; however, has yet to be supported.  I hope you do as I enjoy learning and growing in comparison to quibbles with someone barely a man who seems to think every convert an imbecile (as you grow older you will learn differently). In other words, stop the childhood pop shots and back up your words.  If you can, great.  If not, silence is an honorable virtue.

What supports my opinion?
- Moses doing that.
- The fact it was common among the Orthodox communities
- Some relations even Church officials hired such people
- Some relations of people doing that who claimed it was a gift from God
- Prayer in euchologion said before setting a well.

Everything was already mentioned.

No, I do not think every convert is an imbecile.

Quote
I can provide definitions if you are unable to navigate Google.

Let me repeat: I do  not care about your wikipedia pop-definitions. I'm interested in "traditional" Orthodox understanding.
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« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2013, 12:00:34 AM »

Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

Point me the exact quote.

Quote
It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.

Prove it.
 

Uh-huh...

I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

What supports my opinion?
- Moses doing that.
 

I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.  As such, this is your OPINION.  Speaking to a rock, but didn't...  just saying.

- The fact it was common among the Orthodox communities
 

This doesn’t even come close to making it ok.  Orthodox communities have done a lot of things they shouldn’t in the past.

What supports my opinion?
- Some relations even Church officials hired such people
 

See above response.

- Some relations of people doing that who claimed it was a gift from God
 

There have been a lot of nutjobs in history claiming what they did was done in some way relating to God.  Weak sauce.

- Prayer in euchologion said before setting a well.
 

So, what you are saying is because people pray to God during a forbidden practice, God changes his mind?  This sounds a lot like what I saw in the Godfather when MC went to confession without repentance.  I somehow doubt it works that way.
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« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2013, 12:03:07 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

I believe so.
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« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2013, 12:06:00 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.
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« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.
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« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2013, 12:12:07 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

I don't believe either. And really the evidence says otherwise.

I know you have your hang ups, but really any argument which can be put forth to explain the martyrdom of early Christians applies to Mormons. People died cause they believed him. More over because they witnessed the revelations.

I know people die for all sortsa dumb things which is why the notion the people died for Christ is no proof in my world.

Joseph Smith is way more interesting than LBH and company.

No point in doing this again.
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« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2013, 12:16:34 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

Satan is pretty clever, wouldn't you say?
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« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2013, 12:31:01 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

I don't believe either. And really the evidence says otherwise.

I know you have your hang ups, but really any argument which can be put forth to explain the martyrdom of early Christians applies to Mormons. People died cause they believed him. More over because they witnessed the revelations.

I know people die for all sortsa dumb things which is why the notion the people died for Christ is no proof in my world.

Joseph Smith is way more interesting than LBH and company.

No point in doing this again.
What evidence?

That the guy made some money with some folk magic and doing some moneydigging? Well a guy putting his face in a hat with a seer stone is a lot more believable than someone rising from the dead.

And yeah eleven of his closest friends saw the golden plates too, but they later abandoned him.

It's interesting something like Mormonism came out of the Restoration movement but I don't think should even be taken seriously on even a surface evaluation.

Who is LBH?
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« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2013, 12:34:39 AM »

Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

Satan is pretty clever, wouldn't you say?
The devil is in the details; it sure doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

There was some monk on youtube throwing them in with the Protestants. I don't think that's too far off, really.

And persecuting the Mormons did nobody any favors.

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« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2013, 12:37:00 AM »

I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

None of your quotes mentions looking for water.
Quote
I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.

Ex. 17, 1-6

Quote
So, what you are saying is because people pray to God during a forbidden practice, God changes his mind?  This sounds a lot like what I saw in the Godfather when MC went to confession without repentance.  I somehow doubt it works that way.

And prayer before forbidden practice would be put in euchologion?
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« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2013, 12:53:54 AM »

I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

None of your quotes mentions looking for water.
 

Read them again.  You missed something.

I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.

Ex. 17, 1-6
 

*clears throat*

As I stated, many claims, no proof.  If this is all you can muster and make claim this is divination, you have a deeper theological problem than I ever suspected.

And prayer before forbidden practice would be put in euchologion?

Your point?  Perhaps rather than mysteriously eluding to something, you post it.  Thanks again.
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« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2013, 01:05:43 AM »

Read them again.  You missed something.

How old are you? 5?

Quote
Your point?  Perhaps rather than mysteriously eluding to something, you post it.  Thanks again.

My point? The Church blessed it. And the Church does not bless sin.

http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/dom/studnia_przed.pdf
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« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2013, 01:13:59 AM »

How old are you? 5?
 
Wow, now this is a considerable reply.  Not sure how to respond.  Let’s see.  I can say, “your mamma” or flick a booger at you.  Choices…so hard to decide.

Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.


My point? The Church blessed it. And the Church does not bless sin.

http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/dom/studnia_przed.pdf

What language is this?

You are correct, the CHURCH does not bless sin.
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« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2013, 01:18:28 AM »

Achronos,

Sorry it was LRH.

I will get those scientology and black illuminati links to you soon.
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« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2013, 01:20:12 AM »

Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.

Sigla...
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« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2013, 01:26:46 AM »

Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.

Sigla...

That certainly explains it.
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« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2013, 02:15:20 AM »

Achronos,

Sorry it was LRH.

I will get those scientology and black illuminati links to you soon.

LOL oh Mr. Hubbard.
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« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2013, 10:14:23 AM »

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
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« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2013, 09:18:20 PM »

I can recommend a book on the Evil Eye if you'd like: http://www.amazon.com/Death-Envy-Evil-Christian-Tradition/dp/0595307701/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369704400&sr=1-1

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
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« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2013, 09:35:35 PM »

You can't use that standard, Michał, because our canons do not operate in this fashion.  otherwise, you could make the same argument that there is no sin in watching internet porn because there are no canons specifically condemning the practice, yet every sane Orthodox knows that watching porn is a sin.

The canons do condemn divination:

St. Basil (Canon LXXXIII)- Those resorting to divination and continuing the usages of the heathen nations, or admitting certain persons into their homes with the view of discovering sorceries and purification, let them fall under the Canon of six years, one year weeping, and one year listening, and for three years co-standing among the faithful, then they shall be
accepted.


Dowsing is a form of pre-Christian divination.  It has been practiced for thousands of years.  Just because someone says that they invoke Christ in his work makes no difference: it is an attempt to harness unseen powers by 'mechanical' means as a type of 'prophesy.'  This is different from asking God for a sign and then actually waiting for a sign, and it is different from saying a prayer before commencing the digging of a well.

Otherwise, just about every bit of magic in the post-Paschal period in the Roman Empire could be considered 'Christian' because a huge number of magical texts invoked the names of God, Jesus, and the angels.


Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.
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« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2013, 10:15:54 PM »

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 
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