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Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 6071 times) Average Rating: 0
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #225 on: June 04, 2013, 03:57:24 PM »

Well, I'm finding the conversation interesting because it represents the difficulties that we in the modern era have even with recent history.

Science and physics as we understand it are fairly modern concepts, with the science of the 20th century as a strictly physical concept being only in the last 150 years or so.  Science had been moving towards a strictly physical approach long before that time, but our categories are rather new.

Science emerged from from philosophy, which was intensely metaphysical (look at Plato).  In the Middle Ages, this metaphysical approach lost attachment to philosophy (which we now use in the sense of ethics rather than an explanation for metaphysics and creation, etc.) and became Alchemy. 

Alchemy sought to harness 'natural powers' that were 'arcane' or hidden but to those who had talents or knowledge.  This is where the split between a 'witch' (one who has natural talents) versus a sorcerer (one who has secret knowledge but no talent) occur.  A 'water-witch' or dowser is someone with a natural talent to use these arcane forces.

Now, when it comes to witchcraft, one must think of this setting.  Most witchcraft trials had to do with casting curses and secret rites aimed at doing harm.  General witchcraft still continues to be rarely prosecuted by the Church and is tolerated much as fornication is.

After all, we all know that sexual immorality is a grave sin, yet Orthodox countries have all had their share of prostitutes.  In fact, prostitution was tolerated in ways that infidelity was not.  It has to do with secrecy. 

A dowser who publicly practices his trade and does not bad mouth the Church would find himself tolerated in a village much the same as the old lady who offered incense to get rid of your headache or read your coffee grounds.  The idea that 'witchcraft' meant instant stake-burning simply isn't a recorded phenomenon in history.  As long as you were not destabilizing your village, you could even be the town drunk and still be a part of the town.

That's not to say that it dowsing isn't 'witchcraft,' because it meets the classical definition: a special talent for arcane powers.  Christians are taught to avoid it, much as we are taught to avoid other activities which can lead us down the trail of sin.  For example, what saint has ever said that a young couple can go to 'second base' on a date without sinning?  No, not one.  Yet, a large number of Christian couples go far further and are not booted from the Church for immorality.

Do I think all dowsers are going to hell?  Probably not, but I am not the judge.
Do I condemn people for going to them in the 19th century.  No.
Do I think it is a great idea nowadays?  No, because science has disproved its efficaciousness and there are more reliable methods.

Perhaps I should have led with this.  I assumed that Michał would get that I was not slobbering to execute some old guy in his village, but now I think that he may have thought that is where I am going with this, and I am not.

I've read enough about traditional village life to understand the blurry distinctions between science and witchcraft.  That does not make it not witchcraft, but it makes it far less than the brooms-and-pointy-hat kind that we imagine when we hear the word.
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« Reply #226 on: June 04, 2013, 04:01:41 PM »

I advocate executing Michal because he has not advocated executing the old guys in his village.  Grin
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« Reply #227 on: June 04, 2013, 04:06:53 PM »

No, this will not happen.  The yaya who read my coffee cup said that he would soon enter the Monastery and eventually become Bishop of Murmansk.  Well, at least that's what I thought she said before she transformed into a black cat and ran out of the cave.   laugh

I advocate executing Michal because he has not advocated executing the old guys in his village.  Grin
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« Reply #228 on: June 04, 2013, 04:47:49 PM »


So, it is logical to argue that some successful water seekers simply see things you and i miss...subtle changes in elevation, where certain mosses grow, slight evidence of natural salt licks and slight animal tracks. Nothing supernatural there, just things modern man has forgotten.

I would tend to agree with podkarpatska on this.  There's something they notice that the rest of us aren't trained to see.

Same as "trackers" who can track a person through the woods.  We all see the broken branches, footprints, etc., we just don't notice them.

...and I think "luck" has a lot to do with it.  Cheesy  I am guessing they are simply aware where the water is flowing and are picking a spot that looks likely to have the water close enough to the surface that it can be reached.

Are there any statistics on how many times these individuals are right versus wrong?  That would be interesting.

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« Reply #229 on: June 04, 2013, 05:32:01 PM »

Again, you are not answering the question: what do you believe moves the rod?

I do not care.

A 'water-witch' or dowser is someone with a natural talent to use these arcane forces.

(...)

A dowser who publicly practices his trade and does not bad mouth the Church would find himself tolerated in a village much the same as the old lady who offered incense to get rid of your headache or read your coffee grounds. 

(...)

That's not to say that it dowsing isn't 'witchcraft,' because it meets the classical definition: a special talent for arcane powers. 

Let's agree to disagree.
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« Reply #230 on: June 04, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »

Again, you are not answering the question: what do you believe moves the rod?

I do not care.


....but, wouldn't the source of action in truth answer the whole thing?  If you KNEW for sure the source of the divining was God, then there would be no issue.
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« Reply #231 on: June 04, 2013, 05:56:44 PM »

Again, you are not answering the question: what do you believe moves the rod?

I do not care.


....but, wouldn't the source of action in truth answer the whole thing?  If you KNEW for sure the source of the divining was God, then there would be no issue.


If there is any action.
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« Reply #232 on: June 04, 2013, 09:22:43 PM »

Again, you are not answering the question: what do you believe moves the rod?

I do not care.


....but, wouldn't the source of action in truth answer the whole thing?  If you KNEW for sure the source of the divining was God, then there would be no issue.

Some people do not seek truth, they seek that which supports their views.
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« Reply #233 on: June 04, 2013, 09:24:49 PM »

Wouldn't life be boring if we agreed on everything?  I'm not 'Hyperdox'... yet.  Wink

Let's agree to disagree.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #234 on: June 05, 2013, 08:22:21 PM »

It is a well known fact that President Reagan in the 80s consulted regularly with astrologers and psychics, as have many sitting presidents.

So to say that the most powerful man in the world has to resort to questionable means is not saying much for science as a savior for men's needs.

Or that modern times and science and technology automatically negate those needs.

The important thing that Jesus taught is that we always put God first, and then he will send the man with a forked stick.
 If taht is what we need. Grin
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« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2013, 11:34:41 AM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


Shocking.  I agree.
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« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2013, 07:36:21 PM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


Shocking.  I agree.
Right.  Everyone knows angels and demons never influence humanity in any way, especially demons.
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« Reply #237 on: June 24, 2013, 07:51:25 PM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


Shocking.  I agree.
Right.  Everyone knows angels and demons never influence humanity in any way, especially demons.

Nobody is arguing that but "The Devil made me do it"  is a cop-out.
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« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2013, 08:13:16 PM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


Shocking.  I agree.
Right.  Everyone knows angels and demons never influence humanity in any way, especially demons.

Nobody is arguing that but "The Devil made me do it"  is a cop-out.
It absolutely is.  People do it willingly, at least at first they do.
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