Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 7072 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #180 on: May 31, 2013, 11:47:17 AM »
But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).

I'm taking this info from dowsers themselves, but they define it as such: "Dowsing is the exercise of a human faculty, which allows one to obtain information in a manner beyond the scope and power of the standard human physical senses of sight, sound, touch, etc."

http://www.dowsers.org/dowsing/about-asd/history-of-dowsing

The dowsers themselves seem to admit that what they are doing cannot be catagorized as natural since it is something that is beyond normal human sensory perception.  I think you could replace dowsing with prophecy in their definition and it would be equally accurate.  Do you disagree?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #182 on: May 31, 2013, 12:19:29 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.
We need to start up a call 1-800 for Cleo line for this dude.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #183 on: May 31, 2013, 12:32:56 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.
We need to start up a call 1-800 for Cleo line for this dude.



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Offline augustin717

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #184 on: May 31, 2013, 12:34:09 PM »
I sound like Dracula and it's definitely a selling point.

Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #185 on: May 31, 2013, 12:42:25 PM »
Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?

I think dowsers themselves have detailed explanations what they do and how they do it.

I'm taking this info from dowsers themselves, but they define it as such: "Dowsing is the exercise of a human faculty, which allows one to obtain information in a manner beyond the scope and power of the standard human physical senses of sight, sound, touch, etc."

http://www.dowsers.org/dowsing/about-asd/history-of-dowsing

The dowsers themselves seem to admit that what they are doing cannot be catagorized as natural since it is something that is beyond normal human sensory perception.  I think you could replace dowsing with prophecy in their definition and it would be equally accurate. 

Or Calculus. Or waving one's ears at will. Or any thing some people can do and some are not able to do no matter how they try.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #186 on: May 31, 2013, 01:01:52 PM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

What do you say?  You've made your disbeliefs plain, so tell us what you believe.


Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?

I think dowsers themselves have detailed explanations what they do and how they do it.

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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #187 on: May 31, 2013, 01:04:03 PM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2013, 01:08:27 PM »
How many people on this forum are familiar with your neck of the woods?

Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #189 on: May 31, 2013, 03:34:19 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #190 on: May 31, 2013, 03:42:03 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 03:42:32 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #191 on: May 31, 2013, 05:02:32 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #192 on: May 31, 2013, 05:22:43 PM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.
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Offline converted viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #193 on: May 31, 2013, 07:21:01 PM »
Well this is a surprise to say the least !   I had no idea my question would start a brawl.   This whole discussion is going around and around like my dog chasing its tail.  Good grief !!!

Viking

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #194 on: May 31, 2013, 07:25:07 PM »
No worries viking, this is just a nice debate.  Just wait until we start taking things personally.  :P
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #195 on: May 31, 2013, 07:26:55 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

I am just thinking out loud here, but I would feel comfortable saying that all knowledge comes to us through either natural (sensory) or supernatural means.  I can't think of any other ways it might come.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #196 on: June 01, 2013, 12:32:38 AM »
But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).

Fingers in ears, eyes closed, repeating, "Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah!  I can't hear you!"

You have been given an abundance of information which proves opposite of your position.  The fact you completely ignore it means little.  Believe as you WANT.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #197 on: June 01, 2013, 12:34:42 AM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.

Then you are not interested in an Orthodox perspective.  I had my suspicions.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #198 on: June 01, 2013, 12:35:58 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

Just wait until voodoo dolls become the topic.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #199 on: June 01, 2013, 01:04:35 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

Just wait until voodoo dolls become the topic.
I'm yet to be proved that a voodoo doll requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

 ;) ;D
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #200 on: June 01, 2013, 06:14:35 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

No one has proved it's always occultic.

Then you are not interested in an Orthodox perspective.  I had my suspicions.

Martin Luther or some Baptists are not Orthodox no matter how convincing you are.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #201 on: June 01, 2013, 08:57:45 AM »
For what it worth, perhaps SOME dowsers are akin to so-called "mentalists". Once thought to possess supernatural skills such as mind reading etc.. most folks these days realize that "mentalists" have highly developed  observational skills. In popular literature, the Sherlock Holmes character is an example. On contemporary television the drama called the Mentalist is another. In the Mentalist, the main character is a skilled performer who had a popular Vegas act as a telepathic type. After his family is murdered he realizes his life is a fraud and becomes a police consultant. He makes it clear to the police that his "gift" is simply all about putting what he sees into context, picking up on physical reactions of people, being hyper observant and using logic. Granted,he has more highly developed skills but so do card counters in Blackjack. A summer film on a similar theme called "Now you See Me" is due out in June.

So, it is logical to argue that some successful water seekers simply see things you and i miss...subtle changes in elevation, where certain mosses grow, slight evidence of natural salt licks and slight animal tracks. Nothing supernatural there, just things modern man has forgotten.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #202 on: June 01, 2013, 10:06:49 AM »
But you have not proved how it could not be.  You have not given us your theory from which your doubts emanate.  Tell us, what forces do you believe guide the rod.

BTW, in response to another poster, I don't 'take this personally,' and I appreciate that my friend Michał and I can disagree and not get disrespectful of one another.


I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

No one has proved it's always occultic.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #203 on: June 01, 2013, 02:46:51 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

I am just thinking out loud here, but I would feel comfortable saying that all knowledge comes to us through either natural (sensory) or supernatural means.  I can't think of any other ways it might come.

Frankly, I'm not comfortable with the whole natural/supernatural distinction in the first place. Although I don't believe in any forces or senses that could make dowsing possible, I don't see what the point is in calling physical matter "nature" and calling spiritual things "the supernatural." It all seems like part of a tendency to create an unfairly strong dichotomy between science and religion...a way of keeping them out of each other's business. Of course, in older times, such a dichotomy was unheard of, although there are premonitions of it among the ancient Greeks.

For most people in Western history, everything that existed was part of nature, including spirits (which were not distinguished form "natural" forces..heh). So for such people, dowsing could be seen no differently from using a magnetic compass.

There's a lot more to investigate in this matter.

Incidentally, the forum's spellchecker incorrectly thinks that "each other's" should be "each others'."

Offline Rufus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #204 on: June 01, 2013, 02:48:34 PM »
Well this is a surprise to say the least !   I had no idea my question would start a brawl.   This whole discussion is going around and around like my dog chasing its tail.  Good grief !!!

Could anyone've divined that this topic would've generated this amount and level of discourse?

Two different ways of seeing the same thing...which really makes it two different things, but I'm not sure how to say that...

Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #205 on: June 02, 2013, 03:45:56 PM »
But you have not proved how it could not be.  You have not given us your theory from which your doubts emanate.  Tell us, what forces do you believe guide the rod.

I've talked today to a guy who is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable ethnographers and local historians. He doesn't have much first-hand knowledge about the issue but there was one thing he was certain: it was considered to be a normal job. There used to be one or two dowsers per town and they were treated by the residents on the same level as merchants, carpenters, tailors etc. They were full members of the local community and that means they could not consider their job to be related to "magic" since they would have been some outcasts then.

That solves the issue for me.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #206 on: June 02, 2013, 05:53:06 PM »
But you have not proved how it could not be.  You have not given us your theory from which your doubts emanate.  Tell us, what forces do you believe guide the rod.

I've talked today to a guy who is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable ethnographers and local historians. He doesn't have much first-hand knowledge about the issue but there was one thing he was certain: it was considered to be a normal job. There used to be one or two dowsers per town and they were treated by the residents on the same level as merchants, carpenters, tailors etc. They were full members of the local community and that means they could not consider their job to be related to "magic" since they would have been some outcasts then.

That solves the issue for me.
I am happy you have the information you were looking for.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #207 on: June 02, 2013, 05:56:11 PM »
Why do you guys get so fired up whenever some stupid geography/culture topic about these tiny little backwater European nations (many of which don't even exist anymore) gets brought up?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #208 on: June 02, 2013, 06:44:38 PM »
Why do you guys get so fired up whenever some stupid geography/culture topic about these tiny little backwater European nations (many of which don't even exist anymore) gets brought up?
The location isn't the problem.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #209 on: June 03, 2013, 02:52:14 AM »
Why do you guys get so fired up whenever some stupid geography/culture topic about these tiny little backwater European nations (many of which don't even exist anymore) gets brought up?

If you don't have anything reasonable to write, don't waste your keyboard.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #210 on: June 03, 2013, 10:32:25 AM »
Well, then, it looks like you have your answer.  I would not think you would have found it here.

Now, it would be interesting to see what the bishops at the time thought of it.  My experience of Italian Catholicism and even some local 'flavors' of Orthodoxy show some tolerance towards those practicing 'witchcraft' such as healers and fortune-tellers.  Augustin even mentioned a case of a priest in Romania.  I'm curious to find out whether it was 'tolerated' or genuinely accepted.  Also, it would be interesting to note by what agency the local bishop assumed the rods were moving...

By the way, in your region, do they have men called Koldun?


But you have not proved how it could not be.  You have not given us your theory from which your doubts emanate.  Tell us, what forces do you believe guide the rod.

I've talked today to a guy who is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable ethnographers and local historians. He doesn't have much first-hand knowledge about the issue but there was one thing he was certain: it was considered to be a normal job. There used to be one or two dowsers per town and they were treated by the residents on the same level as merchants, carpenters, tailors etc. They were full members of the local community and that means they could not consider their job to be related to "magic" since they would have been some outcasts then.

That solves the issue for me.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #211 on: June 03, 2013, 12:30:04 PM »
Now, it would be interesting to see what the bishops at the time thought of it.  My experience of Italian Catholicism and even some local 'flavors' of Orthodoxy show some tolerance towards those practicing 'witchcraft' such as healers and fortune-tellers.  Augustin even mentioned a case of a priest in Romania.  I'm curious to find out whether it was 'tolerated' or genuinely accepted.  Also, it would be interesting to note by what agency the local bishop assumed the rods were moving...

I think I wrote it wasn't considered witchcraft.

By the way, in your region, do they have men called Koldun?[/font][/size]

I know what do you mean but it's mostly a women's job here. And no, they are not approved by the Church.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #212 on: June 03, 2013, 12:42:23 PM »
I understand the general acceptance.  However, there are lots of practices that Church authorities tolerate but do not particularly sanction.

For example, I know a priest who was asked to sacrifice a lamb and anoint a baby with its blood.  It is an old practice that some priests in the Middle East do, though I doubt any bishop would go on the record and approve it. 

A Carpatho-Russian historian also told me about the practice of 'black prayers.'  Again, these are local customs that were commonly accepted, yet not officially approved.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just curious because that region has lots of interesting things going on in it.


Now, it would be interesting to see what the bishops at the time thought of it.  My experience of Italian Catholicism and even some local 'flavors' of Orthodoxy show some tolerance towards those practicing 'witchcraft' such as healers and fortune-tellers.  Augustin even mentioned a case of a priest in Romania.  I'm curious to find out whether it was 'tolerated' or genuinely accepted.  Also, it would be interesting to note by what agency the local bishop assumed the rods were moving...

I think I wrote it wasn't considered witchcraft.

By the way, in your region, do they have men called Koldun?[/font][/size]

I know what do you mean but it's mostly a women's job here. And no, they are not approved by the Church.
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Offline kelly

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #213 on: June 03, 2013, 09:55:27 PM »
Why do you guys get so fired up whenever some stupid geography/culture topic about these tiny little backwater European nations (many of which don't even exist anymore) gets brought up?

If you don't have anything reasonable to write, don't waste your keyboard.

Well then he'd stop posting completely...
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #214 on: June 03, 2013, 09:59:38 PM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

*flamesuit on*

Probably going to offend the implicit White supremacist tendencies on this board, but,

It's because "dowsing" and "divining" rods are a European practice, so people are defending it and trying to downplay its occultic nature, whereas, if it were African or Native/Latin American in origin, then everyone would have no problem saying how evil, demonic and occultic it is.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline kelly

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #215 on: June 03, 2013, 10:03:12 PM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

*flamesuit on*

Probably going to offend the implicit White supremacist tendencies on this board, but,

It's because "dowsing" and "divining" rods are a European practice, so people are defending it and trying to downplay its occultic nature, whereas, if it were African or Native/Latin American in origin, then everyone would have no problem saying how evil, demonic and occultic it is.

 :o For my own sanity, I'm just going to assume you're outright trolling now.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #216 on: June 03, 2013, 10:15:42 PM »
I understand the general acceptance.  However, there are lots of practices that Church authorities tolerate but do not particularly sanction.

For example, I know a priest who was asked to sacrifice a lamb and anoint a baby with its blood.  It is an old practice that some priests in the Middle East do, though I doubt any bishop would go on the record and approve it.  

A Carpatho-Russian historian also told me about the practice of 'black prayers.'  Again, these are local customs that were commonly accepted, yet not officially approved.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just curious because that region has lots of interesting things going on in it.

You still don't get it.

It wasn't believed to be magic. It wasn't believed to be "mystical". The Church doesn't need to approve shovels or bicycles, does it?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 10:18:09 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #217 on: June 03, 2013, 10:41:26 PM »
Well, I don't entirely get your explanation of it not being magic, but still not explaining what they believed move the rod.

So, what you are saying is that everyone believed they could do it?


You still don't get it.

It wasn't believed to be magic. It wasn't believed to be "mystical". The Church doesn't need to approve shovels or bicycles, does it?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #218 on: June 03, 2013, 11:00:11 PM »
Well, I don't entirely get your explanation of it not being magic, but still not explaining what they believed move the rod.

I really doubt magicians would have been included in official tsarist censuses as professionals.

Quote
So, what you are saying is that everyone believed they could do it?

Some radiation coming from water being able to be felt by sensitive people? Rod focusing it like a satelite dish?

Is that really important? There were plenty of scientific theories in the XVIIth or XIXth centuries that are considered to be ridiculous now. Luminiferous aether, flat Earth, caloric theory, spontaneous generation, miasmas, preformationism, humorism, phrenology... Do I need to list more?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:03:36 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #219 on: June 04, 2013, 12:05:07 AM »
Michal,

I really can't see how anyone is failing to see your point.

My question is why is this so important to defend. If it is just for the fun of it, I understand.

Did you have family who were diviners or anything?

[Insert cliche quote from Arthur C. Clark or some sci-fi writer about sufficiently advanced science being seen as magic and then the corollary or whatever that sufficiently outmoded science being seen the same way.]
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #220 on: June 04, 2013, 12:10:05 AM »
Did you have family who were diviners or anything?

No, I didn't.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #221 on: June 04, 2013, 07:20:15 AM »
My question is why is this so important to defend.

I'd be ashamed to say how many hours I spend defending concepts I really don't care that much about.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #222 on: June 04, 2013, 10:39:44 AM »
Again, you are not answering the question: what do you believe moves the rod?

It is funny that you should list those theories, many of which arose from 'alchemy' which engaged in magical practices combined with 'proto-science': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

Alchemists were often listed as professions and recognized by authorities, though their work was held at arm's distance by the Church.


Well, I don't entirely get your explanation of it not being magic, but still not explaining what they believed move the rod.

I really doubt magicians would have been included in official tsarist censuses as professionals.

Quote
So, what you are saying is that everyone believed they could do it?

Some radiation coming from water being able to be felt by sensitive people? Rod focusing it like a satelite dish?

Is that really important? There were plenty of scientific theories in the XVIIth or XIXth centuries that are considered to be ridiculous now. Luminiferous aether, flat Earth, caloric theory, spontaneous generation, miasmas, preformationism, humorism, phrenology... Do I need to list more?
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #223 on: June 04, 2013, 11:49:01 AM »
My question is why is this so important to defend.

I'd be ashamed to say how many hours I spend defending concepts I really don't care that much about.

I hear you. I am always curious why certain odd subjects get hashed out the way the way they do.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #224 on: June 04, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
[Insert cliche quote from Arthur C. Clark or some sci-fi writer about sufficiently advanced science being seen as magic and then the corollary or whatever that sufficiently outmoded science being seen the same way.]
"Your physicists could have destroyed the world; your metaphysicists could have destroyed the universe." -Childhood's End, my recollection
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