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Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 4990 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2013, 01:54:30 PM »


Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.
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« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2013, 03:39:25 PM »

This thread is like a bad philosophical dialogue that doesn't go anywhere.

I could point to an enormous thread where Orthodox posters were (selectively) rejecting natural science for allegedly contradicting Church doctrine, but it would probably be opening a can of worms.

As I recall, Iconodule was the only poster who was able to take such a position and more-or-less defend it.

I'm sure he could do much better if he tried harder.
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« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2013, 03:44:08 PM »

Sorry, I don't look to the Church to give me answers about how physics works and I don't look to science to tell me how God works.  Trying to mix the two is just a recipe for disaster.
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« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2013, 03:59:10 PM »

There's a lot of people in this thread who are unfairly reading into others' posts. I will let the victims speak for themselves so as not to step on their toes or misrepresent them.
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« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2013, 04:41:34 PM »

Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

I do not think there is anything I could add. Great summary.
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« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2013, 04:56:24 PM »


Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.

Bolded parts indicate where you continue to misunderstand.

Let me clarify with some modern examples. Consider the concept of qi which underlies traditional Chinese medicine and many other traditional disciplines (e.g. qigong, martial arts, feng shui) in China. As far as I know, no one has yet been able to substantiate the existence of qi in a way which modern science would consider conclusive. I don't think any conclusive studies have done as to whether, say, acupuncture is effective, though you can find many people who swear by it. But the concept is usually presented and understood in a naturalistic fashion. Leaving aside entirely the question of whether it does in fact exist- some might say it's a "pseudo-scientific" idea- it represents a philosophy of the natural world which is neither sorcerous nor scientific in the modern sense. It is hardly an isolated phenomenon- there are countless such ideas around the world which break out of your dichotomy of scientific/ supernatural.
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« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2013, 05:26:24 PM »


Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.

Bolded parts indicate where you continue to misunderstand.

Let me clarify with some modern examples. Consider the concept of qi which underlies traditional Chinese medicine and many other traditional disciplines (e.g. qigong, martial arts, feng shui) in China. As far as I know, no one has yet been able to substantiate the existence of qi in a way which modern science would consider conclusive. I don't think any conclusive studies have done as to whether, say, acupuncture is effective, though you can find many people who swear by it. But the concept is usually presented and understood in a naturalistic fashion. Leaving aside entirely the question of whether it does in fact exist- some might say it's a "pseudo-scientific" idea- it represents a philosophy of the natural world which is neither sorcerous nor scientific in the modern sense. It is hardly an isolated phenomenon- there are countless such ideas around the world which break out of your dichotomy of scientific/ supernatural.

You insist on using the word scientific.  Science is merely man's observation of nature.  The dichotomy is natural/supernatural.  But, lets take your example of qi. Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits.  It is not something that Christians should be entertaining.  That is what the Church is for, not believing in arranging our house and blah, blah, blah. If you want to arrange your furniture because you think that feng shui principles make your house cool, that is fine, but it isn't true feng shui. Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian. So it is w/ dowsing.  If by dowsing you mean walking around trying to find a good place to put a well by identifying low points in the ground, then fine, that is no big deal. BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT DOWSING REALLY IS.

The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.
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« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2013, 06:19:28 PM »

The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice.  My invocation of science has to do with the fact that nothing really has changed about dowsing that would allow one to, in the modern period, attempt to redefine it here.

Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

I do not think there is anything I could add. Great summary.
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« Reply #143 on: May 29, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »


You insist on using the word scientific.  Science is merely man's observation of nature.  The dichotomy is natural/supernatural.  But, lets take your example of qi. Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits.  It is not something that Christians should be entertaining.  That is what the Church is for, not believing in arranging our house and blah, blah, blah. If you want to arrange your furniture because you think that feng shui principles make your house cool, that is fine, but it isn't true feng shui. Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian. So it is w/ dowsing.  If by dowsing you mean walking around trying to find a good place to put a well by identifying low points in the ground, then fine, that is no big deal. BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT DOWSING REALLY IS.

The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

TM? Is it just a coincidence that you used these words?
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« Reply #144 on: May 29, 2013, 07:17:29 PM »

Folks.  I did not mean for this question to start a donnybrook.   I apologize for opening a can of worms here.

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« Reply #145 on: May 29, 2013, 08:02:33 PM »

I have no problem following Kerdy' s and Father G' s arguments.

If dousing were shown to have a scientific basis at some point in the future, it would not present a problem just because we view it either with scepticism or fear of the occult today. In 18th century Christian cultures, both western AND Orthodox, a person postulating air and space travel, vaccinations, television,  etc... would have been at best be deemed insane and at worst, convicted of witchcraft. So what? The scientific method as it developed in the period beginning with the Enlightenment through the modern era proved all of that and more. At the present time there is no proof that there exists a scientific explanation or a "natural" explanation for dousing. Therefore, I place it in the same category as gypsy fortune telling. (Gypsies charge a fee for readings, so it shares that with the charging for dousing services) The issue really seems to me to be a non issue.
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« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2013, 08:17:32 PM »

Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits. 

No, not really. There is a broader concept of natural energies, some harmful, some beneficial, channeled by landforms and other aspects of geography. Evil spirits can enter into this but that is generally not a central consideration.

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Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian.

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about. Buddhism is not essential to Chinese martial arts any more than any other religion; there are countless different schools and disciplines, some of which are attached to a specific religious lineage and some of which are decidedly not. As for "transcendental meditation", do you really have any idea what the term means?

Quote
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Modern science, while very useful in some areas, has serious blind spots and problems, even just looking at nature. Dowsing aside (and I am not personally a believer in dowsing as a reliable method of finding water), there are vast expanses of nature which modern science cannot touch because they cannot be quantified or reduced to fit its methods. Modern science has built into it some fundamental assumptions about reality and the phenomenal world which, if taken as dogma, which you are doing here, are incompatible with the Christian cosmology.
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« Reply #147 on: May 29, 2013, 08:23:10 PM »

Folks.  I did not mean for this question to start a donnybrook.   I apologize for opening a can of worms here.

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« Reply #148 on: May 29, 2013, 08:28:47 PM »

The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.
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« Reply #149 on: May 29, 2013, 09:21:24 PM »

So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  How do you define what is acceptable and what is not?
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« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2013, 12:08:39 AM »

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.
I'm sure they do...

Tell us your categorization, where and why it would fall there.
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« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2013, 12:33:48 AM »

So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  How do you define what is acceptable and what is not?
Truthfully, it depends on the person and their society/culture.  Rarely does one now lean to God/The Church/Christianity, etc. for answers.  It's easier to lean toward what they, as individuals, think rather than what really is.
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« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2013, 07:03:45 AM »

So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable? 

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.
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« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2013, 08:10:56 AM »

So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable? 

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.

So would you agree or disagree with the standard definition of divination and occult in the dictionary that states:

div·i·na·tion
[div-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.


oc·cult
[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt]
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2.
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3.
secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
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« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »

So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.

So would you agree or disagree with the standard definition of divination and occult in the dictionary that states:

div·i·na·tion
[div-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.


oc·cult
[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt]
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2.
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3.
secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

Sure, I see nothing wrong there. Those definitions are quite open-ended. Does occult mean supernatural or simply mysterious, hidden, etc.?

St. John Damascene's belief that stars could be used to predict weather might be considered "occult" by some, though he didn't see anything particularly magical or supernatural about it.

Again, the things we are discussing are not supernatural. Most dowsers, for instance, will claim that their art depends upon magnetism or some other natural phenomenon.
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« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2013, 08:23:19 AM »

Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  Tongue), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  Huh
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« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2013, 08:40:24 AM »

Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  Tongue), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  Huh

I'm sure you can find websites making similar claims for all kinds of ostensibly respectable professions. You might be surprised, for instance, how many people will cite the "law of attraction" to explain their success in their particular trade.

On the other hands, in places throughout Russia and Eastern Europe, some geologists make scientific claims in favor of dowsing. They did not bring supernatural explanations, but cite magnetism or other natural "energy fields" (comparable to feng shui theory).
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« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2013, 09:08:35 AM »

Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  Tongue), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  Huh

I'm sure you can find websites making similar claims for all kinds of ostensibly respectable professions. You might be surprised, for instance, how many people will cite the "law of attraction" to explain their success in their particular trade.

On the other hands, in places throughout Russia and Eastern Europe, some geologists make scientific claims in favor of dowsing. They did not bring supernatural explanations, but cite magnetism or other natural "energy fields" (comparable to feng shui theory).
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« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »

The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
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« Reply #159 on: May 30, 2013, 10:23:09 AM »

The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.
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« Reply #160 on: May 30, 2013, 10:32:27 AM »

The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.

Yeah, by you and FrGiryus.
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« Reply #161 on: May 30, 2013, 10:51:52 AM »

The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.

Yeah, by you and FrGiryus.
I'm not sure what this means, but if proof isn't good enough for you, nothing ever will be.
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« Reply #162 on: May 30, 2013, 05:26:57 PM »

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.



The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
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« Reply #163 on: May 30, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »

What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
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« Reply #164 on: May 30, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »

What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
I don't care about murder being wrong in any other aspect except in the ancient Mayan civilization.  I do not care about the origin of murder, the first murder, or what has been taught about murder.  Some people think if you pray to God over someone you are about to sacrifice it pleases God.  Now prove human sacrifice is wrong using only my quantifiers.

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.
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« Reply #165 on: May 30, 2013, 06:05:26 PM »

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong. Looking for water - not really. If you fe. rape someone in order to find water - it's wrong then. If you check on the map when the nearest spring is - it's not wrong.
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« Reply #166 on: May 30, 2013, 06:59:44 PM »

Did you look at the book I cited?  Look at the Classical Greek references to water-witching as a form of divination.

Obviously, you are better equipped than most of us here to delve into 19th century Polish church sources, as with the 20th century as well.  I can't speak to your local church's practices.

What I can say is that the Church's view of divination is that it is wrong, and it used the Classical definitions of divination in its condemnations.  What I doubt exists is something like, "St. Basil the Great On Dowsing."  If you will only accept a specific condemnation, then you will likely never be satisfied.

But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

Read 6th EC LXI, Ancyra XXIV, & Basil LXXXIII.  I think you will have difficulty finding any Father condoning dowsing, just as you will have great difficulty finding any of the Fathers attributing a physical explanation to the practice.


What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
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« Reply #167 on: May 30, 2013, 07:00:37 PM »

Would you agree that looking for water is wrong if you are using sorcery as the means to find it?

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong. Looking for water - not really. If you fe. rape someone in order to find water - it's wrong then. If you check on the map when the nearest spring is - it's not wrong.
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« Reply #168 on: May 30, 2013, 07:13:48 PM »

Hello everyone:

I think I mentioned before that the reason I threw this question out on the forum was that I am having a problem with the sewer system at my house that was built in the 50s.   My wife and I purchased the place 15 years ago or longer, my memory fails me right now.  We have city water and sewer here but some block head decided to hook up part of the system up on the old drain field apparently to save some time and money.  That being said I decided to try dowsing rods to find the line that runs out to the back yard and for what it is worth the rods worked.  It really creeped me out after I gave it some thought.

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Viking
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« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2013, 12:47:16 AM »

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong.

Proof?  Remember the quantifiers.  Also, some people think it is ok to kill someone if that person wants you to kill them.
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« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2013, 12:49:43 AM »

It isn't a bad thing if you are using the Ouija to speak to God and the Tarot cards if you pray to a saint prior to using them...right? Wink

Did you look at the book I cited?  Look at the Classical Greek references to water-witching as a form of divination.

Obviously, you are better equipped than most of us here to delve into 19th century Polish church sources, as with the 20th century as well.  I can't speak to your local church's practices.

What I can say is that the Church's view of divination is that it is wrong, and it used the Classical definitions of divination in its condemnations.  What I doubt exists is something like, "St. Basil the Great On Dowsing."  If you will only accept a specific condemnation, then you will likely never be satisfied.

But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

Read 6th EC LXI, Ancyra XXIV, & Basil LXXXIII.  I think you will have difficulty finding any Father condoning dowsing, just as you will have great difficulty finding any of the Fathers attributing a physical explanation to the practice.


What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
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« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2013, 12:52:17 AM »

Hello everyone:

I think I mentioned before that the reason I threw this question out on the forum was that I am having a problem with the sewer system at my house that was built in the 50s.   My wife and I purchased the place 15 years ago or longer, my memory fails me right now.  We have city water and sewer here but some block head decided to hook up part of the system up on the old drain field apparently to save some time and money.  That being said I decided to try dowsing rods to find the line that runs out to the back yard and for what it is worth the rods worked.  It really creeped me out after I gave it some thought.

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Viking

It may at that.  How many demons have presented themselves as messengers from God to deceive people?  This is why we are instructed to test such spirits.
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« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2013, 06:49:47 AM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."

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« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2013, 09:14:28 AM »

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."



Your assumption if flawed. While SOME  folks attribute the unknown to the supernatural, angelic or demonic, most of us are intuitive enough to shrug and assume either a healthy skepticism or plain indifference.

But water divination seems to me a bad example as most place it to the same category of unprovens like tarot, palm reading and the like. Acupuncture, hypnotic therapy and even chiropractic are out of mainstream, but they can demonstrate palpable results. I can't define the difference, but humans are intuitive creatures. The former generally are viewed as fraudulent with no measurable positive result, while the latter have measurable results. The former require belief in their efficacy, the latter generally don't require any underlying belief.

Frankly, I am indifferent to water divination as I think the slippery slope fears of some are overblown.
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« Reply #174 on: May 31, 2013, 09:19:13 AM »

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.
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« Reply #175 on: May 31, 2013, 10:13:35 AM »

So, what do you think is going on?

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


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« Reply #176 on: May 31, 2013, 10:45:06 AM »

Could anyone've divined that this topic would've generated this amount and level of discourse?
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« Reply #177 on: May 31, 2013, 11:24:40 AM »

Based on the emails I get, yes, though without much 'divination.'  magic and Orthodoxy have a long relationship.    Cheesy

Could anyone've divined that this topic would've generated this amount and level of discourse?
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« Reply #178 on: May 31, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »

But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).
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« Reply #179 on: May 31, 2013, 11:41:17 AM »

Well, dear, looking for water is not wrong.  How you look for it can be.  Using a divining rod goes back to classical antiquity as an occult art, like pendulums and auguries.

Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?


But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

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