Author Topic: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?  (Read 7700 times)

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Offline converted viking

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Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« on: May 18, 2013, 11:12:42 AM »
Hey everyone:

So I am wondering what the Church teaches about the use of divining rods and dowsing not for monetary gain but for finding water.   Any thoughts  or real church teaching on this would be appreciated.   My immediate thoughts about this is that it is a big NO NO.

Converted Viking

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 11:59:45 AM »
They are.  The old English term for a dowser was a 'Water Witch.'  It's origins are in the occult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

Hey everyone:

So I am wondering what the Church teaches about the use of divining rods and dowsing not for monetary gain but for finding water.   Any thoughts  or real church teaching on this would be appreciated.   My immediate thoughts about this is that it is a big NO NO.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 12:25:52 PM »
Hey everyone:

So I am wondering what the Church teaches about the use of divining rods and dowsing not for monetary gain but for finding water.   Any thoughts  or real church teaching on this would be appreciated.   My immediate thoughts about this is that it is a big NO NO.

Converted Viking
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2013, 03:05:02 PM »
I remember trying to use a dowsing rod when I was 11.

In the end, I found some water. Problem was, I already knew it was there.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2013, 03:29:41 PM »
The canons specifically condemn witchcraft, of which water witching is a natural part of.

Here is another resource: http://www.notofthisworldicons.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80001061-1272665140, the writings of St. John Chrysostom.


Hey everyone:

So I am wondering what the Church teaches about the use of divining rods and dowsing not for monetary gain but for finding water.   Any thoughts  or real church teaching on this would be appreciated.   My immediate thoughts about this is that it is a big NO NO.

Converted Viking
Does the Church have a specific teaching on every specific practice man has ever thought of or will think of? Or does the Church give us general doctrinal principles that we have to interpret so we can understand how they apply to a specific scenario?
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
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Offline WPM

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2013, 03:55:21 PM »
I think its something associated with Pagan wicca or Witchcraft.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2013, 03:59:43 PM »
I think its something associated with Pagan wicca or Witchcraft.

lol

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 04:15:32 PM »
This sort of thing was popular among older generations of hill people.  Rather than praying to find water, they would often say some type of incantation that would sometimes mention God or Jesus.  And although it's called 'water witching', I'm positive it's got nothing to do with Wicca.

 Here's an article I found online from my part of the world:
http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/biglife/dowsing.html
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:32:06 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2013, 04:26:17 PM »
It used to be popular here.

The canons specifically condemn witchcraft, of which water witching is a natural part of.

You sure about the 2nd part?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:27:41 PM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2013, 04:29:55 PM »
It used to be popular here.

In Greece, as well. People who could do it were considered gifted and (I think) received a blessing before an attempt. In my neck of the woods, the last such were in the time of my grandfather, so I don't know details, but it was not particularly frowned upon (if it was, I'd probably have heard).
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2013, 05:16:22 PM »
I recommend turning on the faucet to find water.  It is much more reliable than divining rods.  :P
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2013, 05:20:59 PM »
It should be ok imo. It seems like a harmless folk thing/superstition. I always smile when i think how a priest I know and am distantly related to, after seeing his unction and prayers didn't work, took my dad's cousin and her daughter put them in his car and drove them to see an old "wise" woman some 20 km away.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2013, 08:30:40 PM »
 The church has always taught that superstitions and astrology or similar things are not compatible with Faith in God, and Jesus said you could move a mountain with a mustard seed portion of Faith.

So if you do those other things that are not derived from God, you are saying he is less powerful than those things, thus insulting to God.
I have looked at horoscopes , but I give credit to God if it helps me, which they never do really. I find myself reading them even though I do not believe them,

So it stands to reason that people were willing to try anything when they needed water.

Nowadays there is ground penetrating radar and other scientific ways of finding water which should negate the need for such silliness.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2013, 11:29:24 AM »
But why are you stating that is has to be associated with magic? Maybe it was traditionally believed to be some kind of natural phenomena? Or a gift from God?

Nowadays there is ground penetrating radar and other scientific ways of finding water which should negate the need for such silliness.

It worked.

Offline converted viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2013, 11:48:50 AM »


Nowadays there is ground penetrating radar and other scientific ways of finding water which should negate the need for such silliness.

Well what if one is out in the sticks without access to the above technology or poor in a third world country?

Viking
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 11:49:17 AM by converted viking »

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2013, 02:24:39 PM »
One little episode in Fr. Seraphim's biography contains such a person locating a spot for them (St. Hermans) to drill their well . . . when the drilling team shows up they had to drill a lot farther than expected.

"Walking unannounced through the monastery gate with two long metal "antennae" sticking out of him, the dowser presented quite a strange spectacle."

"The dowser, Fr. Seraphim recorded, "turned out to be a religious man, who regards his work not as 'witching', but simply as a natural talent given by God, and he said a prayer before beginning work."

p. 766

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2013, 03:06:47 PM »
There is opinion and there is there mind of the Church, as St John of Shanghai reminded us, the two should not be confused.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 12:02:59 AM »


Nowadays there is ground penetrating radar and other scientific ways of finding water which should negate the need for such silliness.

Well what if one is out in the sticks without access to the above technology or poor in a third world country?

Viking
To Michael Kalina , The issue is that you can pray to God and have faith that you have received it without a divining. When you start having faith in other sources of power is the issue. The church warns against these things.

I am poor in the richest country  ;D

The point is that there are options that were not there back when divining sticks were popular. There are people who will help us get water usually. Also the fact that we can communicate our troubles such as drought , means we we can help others at long distances now.

Also I remember seeing an old western show where the man who was able to divine for water wanted the town to pay him a large sum of money for his service . So the poor pioneers also had the same problems of no water , however they had little possibility for outside help that exists today.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 12:33:37 AM »
To Michael Kalina , The issue is that you can pray to God and have faith that you have received it without a divining. When you start having faith in other sources of power is the issue. The church warns against these things.

On what basis do you think people back then believed finding water came from "other sources of power" and not from God?

BTW my euchologion has a prayer before digging a well.

edit:

In a discussion on the very same issue someone wrote Fr. Rose once hired such a man to find water for him.

And what about Ex. 17, 1-6?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 12:46:39 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2013, 12:50:57 AM »
Yes, read the wiki article about water witching.

It used to be popular here.

The canons specifically condemn witchcraft, of which water witching is a natural part of.

You sure about the 2nd part?
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2013, 12:58:54 AM »
When Fr. Ephrem acquired the property for St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona, there was some question as to where to drill for a water source.  Someone brought in an engineering team, which recommended a spot, but Fr. Ephrem said, "No, dig here," and indicated another place.  The place the engineers tried was a dry hole; Fr. Ephrem's spot struck a very productive source, which has supplied the monastery ever since.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2013, 01:01:01 AM »
Yes, read the wiki article about water witching.

It used to be popular here.

The canons specifically condemn witchcraft, of which water witching is a natural part of.

You sure about the 2nd part?

I'm interested in Orthodox sources, not in the wiki.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2013, 09:15:56 AM »
To Michael Kalina , The issue is that you can pray to God and have faith that you have received it without a divining. When you start having faith in other sources of power is the issue. The church warns against these things.

On what basis do you think people back then believed finding water came from "other sources of power" and not from God?

BTW my euchologion has a prayer before digging a well.

edit:

In a discussion on the very same issue someone wrote Fr. Rose once hired such a man to find water for him.

And what about Ex. 17, 1-6?

Well they would ask a priest to help instead of a person with a stick who traditionally was not professing any help from prayer . 

There was no scientific basis for this practice, so it was considered a black art,if not specifically sanctioned or overseen by the church.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2013, 09:17:34 AM »
Well they would ask a priest to help instead of a person with a stick who traditionally was not professing any help from prayer .  

There was no scientific basis for this practice, so it was considered a black art,if not specifically sanctioned or overseen by the church.

Can you prove the bolded parts somehow?

Prayer for finding water in euchologion hints it wasn't like that.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 09:23:52 AM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2013, 10:04:45 AM »
I've known a couple dowsers in my short time on earth and both emphatically stated that they viewed their ability to find water as a gift from God and that they were merely "sensitive" to its existence.  Both prayed to God "through Jesus,mind you" (both were hardcore Baptists) to "guide their hands, hearts, and minds" in their search.

I have no doubt in my mind that they were not "witches" engaged in "black arts." 

They were also more closely following the Way than the vast majority of supposed Orthodox Christians I've ever met.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2013, 10:34:22 AM »
I think there is a very modern assumption running under here that there are only two ways of understanding or harnessing the natural world- through the modern natural sciences or through divine gifts, and anything falling outside these two must be witchcraft. Setting aside whether dowsing actually works, it is one of countless traditional "sciences" of the world which wouldn't stand up to modern scientific rigor but which are not necessarily sorcerous or demonic.

Offline converted viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2013, 06:58:31 PM »
Lots of interesting replies here. Actually the reason I bought this up is that I have used them in the past to find buried sewer lines out to the septic system. The house was built back in the 50s and I had no idea where they might be.  All I know is that it worked and I found the line.  The whole thing was kind of creepy and gave me the willies.

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« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:00:51 PM by converted viking »

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2013, 03:07:01 AM »
i think you have your own answer.
when God gives you divine knowledge (through the church), it is not 'creepy'.
when in doubt, don't do it!

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2013, 06:58:18 PM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

What does the church really say, anyone ask a priest for the official Church policy.

Again I admit I am prone to read my horoscope, so I admit being a hypocrite, although I keep in mind it is just for fun and try not to put any real faith in it.

But if you need water and it works I would do it too.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 07:13:14 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2013, 05:56:05 AM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 06:50:09 AM »
Yes, read the wiki article about water witching.

It used to be popular here.

The canons specifically condemn witchcraft, of which water witching is a natural part of.

You sure about the 2nd part?

I'm interested in Orthodox sources, not in the wiki.
Please remember this the next time you reference a source which is not Orthodox.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2013, 06:52:16 AM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.
They are wrong.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2013, 08:33:13 AM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

If the people at your church are telling you that magic is changing the bread into God's Flesh, you should probably start looking for a new church.  ;)
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2013, 12:37:43 PM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

Really?

What Faith is this church?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2013, 01:13:10 PM »
I've got to say that this topic isn't exactly on a list of important stuff to ponder. It the kind of topic that I remember one usually frenzied parishioner would call my dad (a priest) about on a Saturday night just like clockwork or during Holy Week or Christmas Eve and insist that he needed THE answer right away. Caller ID came too late for my dad....  :)

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2013, 02:09:57 PM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

Really?

What Faith is this church?

Just for the record, I believe that Michal was simply trying to make a point, and certainly not actually inferring that the Eucharist is "magic".  

He is, without a doubt, an Orthodox Christian and was simply trying to make a point using sarcasm.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 02:10:24 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2013, 02:32:12 PM »
Accordding to some posters here, there are only two methods of understanding world: the one of modern science, and the one of dubious magic. During Liturgy bread changes into the Body of Christ, doesn't it? On the other hand there are no scientific proofs for that. It means it must magic.

Or am I wrong in understanding that way of reasoning?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2013, 02:56:47 PM »
I think that is a false dilemma.  Perhaps some people would argue that, but that sounds more of an atheistic position to me than anything else.

Regardless of whether it actually works or it is just bogus, I think whether it is wrong or not depends on what you believe is happening when you do it.  If you are using an object (particularly an un-consecrated one) to supernaturally obtain information that only God presumably knows without His direction to do so, I think that is wrong.  If you think it is helping you identify low points in the ground that water might run to, that would not be bad (it might not be efficient or correct, but it isn't evil)
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2013, 03:35:35 PM »

I know next to nothing about diving rods....but, the person who is doing the divining....are they saying prayers...asking for divine intersession....?

How do THEY think they are finding the water?

Certainly it's not the tree branch that is finding it alone...
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Offline Punch

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »
Accordding to some posters here, there are only two methods of understanding world: the one of modern science, and the one of dubious magic. During Liturgy bread changes into the Body of Christ, doesn't it? On the other hand there are no scientific proofs for that. It means it must magic.

Or am I wrong in understanding that way of reasoning?

I think that you are correct.  That is how the "world" sees it.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 03:50:22 PM »
If anyone in the Church is stupid enough to use a stick to find water, then they probably deserve whatever happens to them.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 03:58:00 PM »
If anyone in the Church is stupid enough to use a stick to find water, then they probably deserve whatever happens to them.

 ;D

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »

I know next to nothing about diving rods....but, the person who is doing the divining....are they saying prayers...asking for divine intersession....?

How do THEY think they are finding the water?

Certainly it's not the tree branch that is finding it alone...

Dowsing is a craft spread across various cultures (and religions), so the particulars vary. What remains constant, at least as far as I've been able to find, is the dowsers' belief that their gift comes from Deity (whatever their understanding of it is) and is meant to be put to the service of their community. It is considered particularly bad form to charge for their efforts.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 04:03:56 PM »

I know next to nothing about diving rods....but, the person who is doing the divining....are they saying prayers...asking for divine intersession....?

How do THEY think they are finding the water?

I'll ask some friends that are into folklore and ethnography. That's the most interesting thing here.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 05:09:27 PM »
Accordding to some posters here, there are only two methods of understanding world: the one of modern science, and the one of dubious magic. During Liturgy bread changes into the Body of Christ, doesn't it? On the other hand there are no scientific proofs for that. It means it must magic.

Or am I wrong in understanding that way of reasoning?
Yes, you are wrong in your understanding.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 05:10:29 PM »
I said in my original post that If they are derived from other sources, I did not say they were.

But would you go to a church which was run by these guys who claim to be able to do all sorts of things such as find water with a forked stick, even if they claim to be using the power of God?

The Church was OK with that and used such people.

I go to a Church run by people who claim they can magically change bread into God's Flesh.

Really?

What Faith is this church?

Just for the record, I believe that Michal was simply trying to make a point, and certainly not actually inferring that the Eucharist is "magic".  

He is, without a doubt, an Orthodox Christian and was simply trying to make a point using sarcasm.


The word magic isn't what bothered me.  It's that he said the people changed it.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 05:12:00 PM »

I know next to nothing about diving rods....but, the person who is doing the divining....are they saying prayers...asking for divine intersession....?

How do THEY think they are finding the water?

Certainly it's not the tree branch that is finding it alone...
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 05:27:38 PM »
The word magic isn't what bothered me.  It's that he said the people changed it.

Well, I guess that is a sticky subject.  If we put bread an wine on the altar and sat and looked at it for two hours, it would probably not change.  On the other hand,  if everyone stands around for two hours while people chant, sing, wear funny cloths and wave their hands over the bread and wine, then it changes.  Now granted, the Holy Spirit pays a large part in this.  But He seems to need the fancy cloths and hand waving and chanting for two hours to make it happen.  So, this is another one of the rare moments that MK and I agree.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 07:23:00 PM »
Accordding to some posters here, there are only two methods of understanding world: the one of modern science, and the one of dubious magic. During Liturgy bread changes into the Body of Christ, doesn't it? On the other hand there are no scientific proofs for that. It means it must magic.

Or am I wrong in understanding that way of reasoning?

I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

My personal feeling is that it would be okay if a Priest and or Church authorized it's use.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 07:32:08 PM »
I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

How are you sure people who practiced it didn't considered it a natural phenomena? I'm purposely not using the term "science" since scientific approach had not become the conventional one until the 2nd half of XXth century or so,

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2013, 06:45:30 PM »
I am not sure, that is why I said the encyclopedia said it was considered superstition. But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena? There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

Like I said though , I am not intolerant to using whatever works. I was curious if anyone has asked a preist or Church officials about this subject, course in that same point they also can be wrong as in the past over subjects of science.

In a similar vein , I am reading a Benjamin Franklin biography and was just reading the part of his invention of the lightning rod in 1752, and in it was something i never knew, that up until then, most Churches , which had tall steeples and so were susceptible to lightning strikes, would ring their bells in an effort to ward off( "God's Wrath") the lightning which they had no understanding of.

So in effect the church was condoning an act similar to divining, and which it was reported that over 100 bell ringers died in just the year before Franklin showed what lightning truly was made of and ended the problem with his "Lightning Rod" .

I am not implying that God does not exist or that we should not believe, but there are sometimes mistakes made by well intentioned people who refuse to listen, when it is God who wishes us to learn.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 06:54:52 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2013, 05:50:32 AM »
I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

How are you sure people who practiced it didn't considered it a natural phenomena?

As I stated, it doesn't matter what people think about something.  What matters is what it is, its origins, etc.  If someone thinks God wants them to run around and kill innocent people, and they do it in the name of God, does it stop being wrong?  What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 06:22:36 AM by Kerdy »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2013, 06:36:54 AM »
If someone thinks God wants them to run around and kill innocent people, and they do it in the name of God, does it stop being wrong? 

According to the Bible, it does at times.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 06:37:40 AM »
Also I read in my Encarta Encyclopedia that Scientists consider divining a superstition.

Thank you for this.

I like to think you are being sincere and not clever. Don't ruin it for me.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 08:38:42 AM »
I would hope that the Church would point out that dowsing has failed every time it has been tested under controlled conditions. Dowsing for water is no better then random chance. Why do ppl buy into superstition?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 09:34:06 AM »
I would say there are three ways of understanding life , First is the way of God, two is the way of learning through observation and instruction IE science, math, reading, Etc..... , And the other is the Superstitions and supernatural and or Satans works.

What exactly constitutes "science" varies considerably over the centuries and between cultures. Many people throughout East Asia will insist that traditional Chinese medicine is science; but someone who thinks of science in the vein of Francis Bacon and Sir Isaac Newton will look at the theories about qi or the five phases and consider it to be "pseudo-science." Of course in our schools and society at large, it's this latter version of science which is taught as being the only true science. If that's the case, then most people today, and basically everyone prior to the 17th-18th centuries, was indulging in demonic superstitions, in which case it was not the Church who lifted us out of the worship of demons but the laboratory.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 12:44:58 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 12:45:11 PM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 08:27:42 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?
Why?  I don't believe in magic itself, I believe in the powerful dark forces which work such things to make people believe in magic, the same magic we are forbidden to practice.  Harry Potter is entertainment, evil is real and active and dangerous.  It's no different than a ouija or a seance. 

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2013, 04:28:56 PM »
It's no different than a ouija or a seance. 

It's your personal opinion even not based on actual knowledge about the issue and how the Church perceived it.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2013, 07:28:28 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.
You are similar to most people who think they are so much smarter than the ancients, in fact, there are many things they did, such as building the great pyramids that scientists today cannot duplicate even with modern machines.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".

Archimedes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Archimedes (disambiguation).

Archimedes of Syracuse
(Greek: Ἀρχιμήδης)

Archimedes Thoughtful by Fetti (1620)
Born   c. 287 BC
Syracuse, Sicily
Magna Graecia
Died   c. 212 BC (aged around 75)
Syracuse
Residence   Syracuse, Sicily
Fields   Mathematics
Physics
Engineering
Astronomy
Invention
Known for   Archimedes' principle
Archimedes' screw
hydrostatics
levers
infinitesimals
Archimedes of Syracuse (Greek: Ἀρχιμήδης; c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) was a Greek mathematician, physicist, engineer, inventor, and astronomer.[1] Although few details of his life are known, he is regarded as one of the leading scientists in classical antiquity. Among his advances in physics are the foundations of hydrostatics, statics and an explanation of the principle of the lever. He is credited with designing innovative machines, including siege engines and the screw pump that bears his name. Modern experiments have tested claims that Archimedes designed machines capable of lifting attacking ships out of the water and setting ships on fire using an array of mirrors.[2]

Science, as Shakespeare would say , is just as accurate by any other name.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 07:43:31 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2013, 07:39:07 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2013, 08:27:46 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.

True, but most "(including me) still cannot do any of those things, but they were aware just as we are. Back in Newtons day the whole world knew about his revelations but only a few could ever read it. Still can't.

The point is that science was widespead from way back before christ, it was lost somewhat during the dark ages, even Columbus was aware of the ancvient Grssks calculations of the diameter of the Earth, but he chose to ignore it.

 Like so many who know what has been told and they choose to act as if they are wrong, just to further their own iideas, or religious doctrine. There are many who for instance, still today act as if we did not go to the moon.

Harvard University kept teaching the world is the center of the universe right up until the 1900s, because of church doctrine, but there were none who did not know about Newton and gravity.

Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod based on his experiments with electricity and lightning. Within a year it was known and being used around the world in 1752. So yes they did have science knowledge and everyone hailed Franklin as a genius all around the world wherever he went . Just as we did to Einstein in this generation.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 08:51:19 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »
It's no different than a ouija or a seance.  

It's your personal opinion even not based on actual knowledge about the issue and how the Church perceived it.

Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.


Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Acts 19:19
And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

2 Kings 21:6
And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Acts 8:9-13
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Ezekiel 13:18
And say, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the women who sew magic bands upon all wrists, and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature, in the hunt for souls! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?

Isaiah 47:12-14
Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed; perhaps you may inspire terror. You are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you, those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new moons make known what shall come upon you. Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!


Isaiah 19:3
And the spirit of the Egyptians within them will be emptied out, and I will confound their counsel; and they will inquire of the idols and the sorcerers, and the mediums and the necromancers;

Deuteronomy 18:9-14
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, ...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 09:04:14 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2013, 09:08:23 PM »
But first you must explain what you mean by natural phenomena?

Quote
There is no natural attraction of wood to water.

This what we know explain with science. Seasons, atmospheric phenomena... People didn't use to explain them with our modern science because they didn't know it. They had their own theories. Nothing about magic.

So wisely of you. Can't you understand that until the second half of XXth century almost no one ha scientific knowledge we have today? That they perceived world differently? Why do you try to mix modern worldview with their actions?

What is to stop us from saying there is white (good) magic and black (evil) magic?  Just because someone says they pray to God before they cast a spell means nothing because magic is forbidden.  And before someone mentions illusion "magic", that is all it is, an illusion, sleight of hand, not real magic which gets its power from evil.

Why do you think it's "magic"? Too much Harry Potter?

Excuse me , but the man considered the greatest scientist, Isaac newton lived in the 1700a, and copernicus centuries before, and the ancient Greeks accurately measured the diameter of the Earth before Christ! Science is just the english name for it.

There was also Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, Euclid in 300 BC, also known as Euclid of Alexandria, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry".


And how spread was that knowledge amongst normal people. I'm not really sure most people now can use Calculus (what Newton discovered). I supposr almost-illiterate peasants 100 years ago also couldn't.
I suggest you look around for a math book from 100-200 years ago and see if you can work out the problems.   Maybe then you will see how difficult it was then for the common people.  Their lives depended on getting this stuff right the first time.  Ours don’t.  We get to Monday morning quarterback as much as we like.  Ancient people were not dumb.  Illiterate perhaps, but not dumb.  Just look at Masonry, a common folk occupation.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2013, 10:11:18 PM »
We only have the scientific knowledge now because we are standing on the backs of giants.  Many of those ancient thinkers would put our modern scientists to shame if they were alive today and have the resources that we do.  The vast majority of modern civilization has no functional knowledge over anyone else from the past 2500 years, we just benefit from what a few great minds have been able to accomplish.  We use electricity, but how many of us if we were sent back 1000 years would be able to figure out how to generate and use electricity?
Will we all have to prove our Orthodoxy by adopting St Nicholas avatars now?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2013, 01:07:37 AM »
We only have the scientific knowledge now because we are standing on the backs of giants.  Many of those ancient thinkers would put our modern scientists to shame if they were alive today and have the resources that we do.  The vast majority of modern civilization has no functional knowledge over anyone else from the past 2500 years, we just benefit from what a few great minds have been able to accomplish.  We use electricity, but how many of us if we were sent back 1000 years would be able to figure out how to generate and use electricity?

Someone do that ancient alien picture thing . . . thanks.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2013, 03:00:37 PM »
Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2013, 09:24:06 PM »
Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.
Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.  Your opinion; however, has yet to be supported.  I hope you do as I enjoy learning and growing in comparison to quibbles with someone barely a man who seems to think every convert an imbecile (as you grow older you will learn differently). In other words, stop the childhood pop shots and back up your words.  If you can, great.  If not, silence is an honorable virtue.

I can provide definitions if you are unable to navigate Google.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 09:36:18 PM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2013, 09:35:50 PM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2013, 11:31:50 PM »
Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

Point me the exact quote.

Quote
It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.

Prove it.

Quote
Your opinion; however, has yet to be supported.  I hope you do as I enjoy learning and growing in comparison to quibbles with someone barely a man who seems to think every convert an imbecile (as you grow older you will learn differently). In other words, stop the childhood pop shots and back up your words.  If you can, great.  If not, silence is an honorable virtue.

What supports my opinion?
- Moses doing that.
- The fact it was common among the Orthodox communities
- Some relations even Church officials hired such people
- Some relations of people doing that who claimed it was a gift from God
- Prayer in euchologion said before setting a well.

Everything was already mentioned.

No, I do not think every convert is an imbecile.

Quote
I can provide definitions if you are unable to navigate Google.

Let me repeat: I do  not care about your wikipedia pop-definitions. I'm interested in "traditional" Orthodox understanding.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2013, 12:00:34 AM »
Your reading comprehension appears to be lacking.

Point me the exact quote.

Quote
It isn't my personal opinion and the fact you dismiss Holy Scripture on the whole explains much.

Prove it.
 

Uh-huh...

I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

What supports my opinion?
- Moses doing that.
 

I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.  As such, this is your OPINION.  Speaking to a rock, but didn't...  just saying.

- The fact it was common among the Orthodox communities
 

This doesn’t even come close to making it ok.  Orthodox communities have done a lot of things they shouldn’t in the past.

What supports my opinion?
- Some relations even Church officials hired such people
 

See above response.

- Some relations of people doing that who claimed it was a gift from God
 

There have been a lot of nutjobs in history claiming what they did was done in some way relating to God.  Weak sauce.

- Prayer in euchologion said before setting a well.
 

So, what you are saying is because people pray to God during a forbidden practice, God changes his mind?  This sounds a lot like what I saw in the Godfather when MC went to confession without repentance.  I somehow doubt it works that way.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:15:31 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2013, 12:03:07 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

I believe so.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2013, 12:06:00 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2013, 12:12:07 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

I don't believe either. And really the evidence says otherwise.

I know you have your hang ups, but really any argument which can be put forth to explain the martyrdom of early Christians applies to Mormons. People died cause they believed him. More over because they witnessed the revelations.

I know people die for all sortsa dumb things which is why the notion the people died for Christ is no proof in my world.

Joseph Smith is way more interesting than LBH and company.

No point in doing this again.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:12:44 AM by orthonorm »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2013, 12:16:34 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

Satan is pretty clever, wouldn't you say?

Offline Shiny

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2013, 12:31:01 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

I don't believe either. And really the evidence says otherwise.

I know you have your hang ups, but really any argument which can be put forth to explain the martyrdom of early Christians applies to Mormons. People died cause they believed him. More over because they witnessed the revelations.

I know people die for all sortsa dumb things which is why the notion the people died for Christ is no proof in my world.

Joseph Smith is way more interesting than LBH and company.

No point in doing this again.
What evidence?

That the guy made some money with some folk magic and doing some moneydigging? Well a guy putting his face in a hat with a seer stone is a lot more believable than someone rising from the dead.

And yeah eleven of his closest friends saw the golden plates too, but they later abandoned him.

It's interesting something like Mormonism came out of the Restoration movement but I don't think should even be taken seriously on even a surface evaluation.

Who is LBH?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:32:45 AM by Achronos »
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2013, 12:34:39 AM »
Hey, didn't ole Joe Smith use diving rods when he was gallivanting around with the angel moroni or something?

PP

Joseph Smith was tried for diving for gold (ostensibly because he defrauding folks). He was roundly acquitted based on the testimony of those people he found gold for.

Or PBS tells me so.

Joseph Smith was a fascinating character, probably the most of all the founders of relatively new religions.

Liars and charlatans are always fascinating.

Satan is pretty clever, wouldn't you say?
The devil is in the details; it sure doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

There was some monk on youtube throwing them in with the Protestants. I don't think that's too far off, really.

And persecuting the Mormons did nobody any favors.

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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2013, 12:37:00 AM »
I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

None of your quotes mentions looking for water.
Quote
I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.

Ex. 17, 1-6

Quote
So, what you are saying is because people pray to God during a forbidden practice, God changes his mind?  This sounds a lot like what I saw in the Godfather when MC went to confession without repentance.  I somehow doubt it works that way.

And prayer before forbidden practice would be put in euchologion?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2013, 12:53:54 AM »
I don’t have to prove anything other than what I already have.  If I am wrong, please reveal where and how.  Thanks so much!

None of your quotes mentions looking for water.
 

Read them again.  You missed something.

I have heard this before, but never seen it proven.

Ex. 17, 1-6
 

*clears throat*

As I stated, many claims, no proof.  If this is all you can muster and make claim this is divination, you have a deeper theological problem than I ever suspected.

And prayer before forbidden practice would be put in euchologion?

Your point?  Perhaps rather than mysteriously eluding to something, you post it.  Thanks again.

Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2013, 01:05:43 AM »
Read them again.  You missed something.

How old are you? 5?

Quote
Your point?  Perhaps rather than mysteriously eluding to something, you post it.  Thanks again.

My point? The Church blessed it. And the Church does not bless sin.

http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/dom/studnia_przed.pdf

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2013, 01:13:59 AM »
How old are you? 5?
 
Wow, now this is a considerable reply.  Not sure how to respond.  Let’s see.  I can say, “your mamma” or flick a booger at you.  Choices…so hard to decide.

Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.


My point? The Church blessed it. And the Church does not bless sin.

http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/dom/studnia_przed.pdf

What language is this?

You are correct, the CHURCH does not bless sin.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 01:15:39 AM by Kerdy »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2013, 01:18:28 AM »
Achronos,

Sorry it was LRH.

I will get those scientology and black illuminati links to you soon.
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Offline mike

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2013, 01:20:12 AM »
Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.

Sigla...

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2013, 01:26:46 AM »
Now, go back and read them again.  I even left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow which you seem to have ignored.

Sigla...

That certainly explains it.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2013, 02:15:20 AM »
Achronos,

Sorry it was LRH.

I will get those scientology and black illuminati links to you soon.

LOL oh Mr. Hubbard.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2013, 10:14:23 AM »
Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2013, 09:18:20 PM »
I can recommend a book on the Evil Eye if you'd like: http://www.amazon.com/Death-Envy-Evil-Christian-Tradition/dp/0595307701/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369704400&sr=1-1

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2013, 09:35:35 PM »
You can't use that standard, Michał, because our canons do not operate in this fashion.  otherwise, you could make the same argument that there is no sin in watching internet porn because there are no canons specifically condemning the practice, yet every sane Orthodox knows that watching porn is a sin.

The canons do condemn divination:

St. Basil (Canon LXXXIII)- Those resorting to divination and continuing the usages of the heathen nations, or admitting certain persons into their homes with the view of discovering sorceries and purification, let them fall under the Canon of six years, one year weeping, and one year listening, and for three years co-standing among the faithful, then they shall be
accepted.


Dowsing is a form of pre-Christian divination.  It has been practiced for thousands of years.  Just because someone says that they invoke Christ in his work makes no difference: it is an attempt to harness unseen powers by 'mechanical' means as a type of 'prophesy.'  This is different from asking God for a sign and then actually waiting for a sign, and it is different from saying a prayer before commencing the digging of a well.

Otherwise, just about every bit of magic in the post-Paschal period in the Roman Empire could be considered 'Christian' because a huge number of magical texts invoked the names of God, Jesus, and the angels.


Not my opinion.  Last time I checked, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture supported one another, not contradicted.

Look closely, you will see divination partnered with the other magics.  And if this is not enough, let me know, there is ton of other references throughout the Scriptures.

I don't need "tons of references". I want only the ones that would support your personal view that finding water with sticks is considered magic and therefore forbidden. Your wave of quotes did not support it.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2013, 10:15:54 PM »
Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2013, 11:23:36 PM »
Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2013, 01:02:36 AM »
Having been raised by an occult practitioner, I can say from experience that most folks are blissfully unaware of the stuff that really is out there.

Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2013, 01:09:31 AM »
Does anyone else sense Satan laughing as some here consume so much time and passion to an otherwise arcane issue? While we're at it, anyone up for a good old fashioned "evil eye" chat or a discussion about thunder and "Perun" ? How about folk patterns found on pysanky or embroidery?  If you really believe the stick has "magic", that "Perun" is throwing boulders around, that the eye will curse you, that the "goddess" diety is in your Easter basket and so on you have a problem or two. On the other hand if all of that is either just part of your cultural language or reflexive, it's really much ado about nothing. 
He laughs because people don't understand the dangers.  They underestimate his abilities. 

I guess I'm just perplexed that this subject is still spinning here. Topic seems self evident, like tarot, ouija boards, divination, gypsy hand reading and so on. We were taught as children these sort of things are related to the occult and are tricks used by the devil and are dangerous, even if you think you are joking around.

It must be the world we live in today where everything is considered acceptable except the things which really are.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:17 AM »
You can't use that standard, Michał, because our canons do not operate in this fashion.  otherwise, you could make the same argument that there is no sin in watching internet porn because there are no canons specifically condemning the practice, yet every sane Orthodox knows that watching porn is a sin.

The canons do condemn divination:

St. Basil (Canon LXXXIII)- Those resorting to divination and continuing the usages of the heathen nations, or admitting certain persons into their homes with the view of discovering sorceries and purification, let them fall under the Canon of six years, one year weeping, and one year listening, and for three years co-standing among the faithful, then they shall be
accepted.


Dowsing is a form of pre-Christian divination.  It has been practiced for thousands of years.  Just because someone says that they invoke Christ in his work makes no difference: it is an attempt to harness unseen powers by 'mechanical' means as a type of 'prophesy.'  This is different from asking God for a sign and then actually waiting for a sign, and it is different from saying a prayer before commencing the digging of a well.

I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels. I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2013, 05:15:51 AM »
I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels.

I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.

That would be the occult.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2013, 05:24:03 AM »
I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

Nowadays, at today's level of awareness and knowledge.

Nonetheless, does the Church require us to be scientifically accurate? Hundreds of posts in the evolution thread say otherwise.

Quote
That would be the occult.

It would be nice if you provided some 1st hand opinions or opinions by Church people who know the issue well.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:25:50 AM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2013, 05:32:02 AM »
I do not see how it would fall into the category of science.  Scientists certainly would not consider it science.  There is absolutely no way it would pass the scientific method.

Nowadays, at today's level of awareness and knowledge.

Nonetheless, does the Church require us to be scientifically accurate? Hundreds of posts in the evolution thread say otherwise.

Quote
That would be the occult.

It would be nice if you provided some 1st hand opinions or opinions by Church people who know the issue well.
You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2013, 05:33:50 AM »
You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.

Proofs?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2013, 05:54:09 AM »
You stated you were interested in the traditional way it was practiced.  It's origins are pagan, the occult.

Proofs?

Since people are fond of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_magic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forteana#Fortean_phenomena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiesthesia


Here is a Roman Catholic perspective:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05048b.htm

This is the definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divination

Basically, just Google "origins of divination".
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:22:53 AM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2013, 09:46:13 AM »
Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?


I'm not convinced looking for water (I'm not talking about other things) would be classified into the "occult" category, and not into the "science" one if you need some labels. I also mean I'm interested in the traditional way it used to be practiced (people doing that for a living) and not by some modern retards.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »
Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2013, 02:32:16 PM »
Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.
...except blacksmiths don't walk around with a stick pretending it tells them where to hit the metal.  ;)
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2013, 08:27:11 PM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2013, 08:46:09 PM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2013, 10:18:04 PM »
If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #105 on: May 29, 2013, 05:33:46 AM »
If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.


There are none, which has been proven time and again under scrutiny.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #106 on: May 29, 2013, 05:35:59 AM »
Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

A lot of folks have paid for voo-doo witch doctors to do things and this was their job. 

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #107 on: May 29, 2013, 05:36:45 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2013, 07:10:20 AM »
If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

I suggest reading from the beginning of the thread before asking such a question.  

What is the scientific basis for St. John of Damascus' belief that movements of stars and planets can be used to predict drought?

What is the scientific basis for the belief of many Fathers that the universe consists of a series of concentric spheres? Or St. Gregory Palamas' belief that the sphere of earth overlaps with the water sphere, resulting in 90% of the earth being inundated?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:32:29 AM by Iconodule »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #109 on: May 29, 2013, 07:26:20 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #110 on: May 29, 2013, 07:28:45 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #111 on: May 29, 2013, 07:33:00 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:33:35 AM by Iconodule »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #112 on: May 29, 2013, 08:18:44 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:27:51 AM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2013, 08:19:15 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Because to do so requires you to take a position that others can then examine.  The horrors!  :o
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2013, 08:29:04 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #115 on: May 29, 2013, 08:37:14 AM »
There is a fundamental difference between blacksmiths and dowsers.  A blacksmith understands physics in that he knows if he hits the piece of metal a certain way, the forces will cause the metal to move in a certain direction. He knows the metal has to be heated to a certain degree in order to make it malleable. All that is physics.  There is an artistic element because he needs to have a picture in his mind of what he wants to make, but it is all physics that transforms the metal into the desired object.  God may bless him with the talents to be a good blacksmith, but God doesn't give him some mystical ability to shape metal with his mind.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #116 on: May 29, 2013, 08:38:12 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  Additionally, your logic also fails if you have ever been paid for any task you have accomplished because having that ability is a blessing from God.

So, are you ever going to answer a question or continue to avoid them?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #117 on: May 29, 2013, 08:50:17 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2013, 08:54:06 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

It is only a "skill" if it is something that can be explained through natural means.  I don't see anyone here or anywhere else giving any remotely feasible explanation of how this "skill" works other than some supernatural explanation. In that way, it would be more closely related to a prophet than a blacksmith, and I'm pretty sure the Church frowns on prophets selling their prophecies.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2013, 08:57:15 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:57:30 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #120 on: May 29, 2013, 09:00:19 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

Witch Doctor is an occupation.  High Priest in the Church of Satan is an occupation.  Blacksmithing does not require an incantation and the trust of some power from beyond will guide the hammer to magically create something.  It is a skill set, an ability to learn that skill set and thrive at the work, a blessing from God.  Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.  But don’t take my word for it, read the Holy Scriptures.  This is explained, literally, throughout those scriptures.

Still not answering questions instead you continue to ask more.  I think, until you learn the give portion of give and take, I won’t answer any more of your questions.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #121 on: May 29, 2013, 09:06:14 AM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".

Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

If there are EM fields, they would be discovered by sensors much more sensitive than humans w/ sticks.  I have no idea how hygroscopy could even be related to it unless you are just saying that people observe marshy areas, but that is simple observation, not "dowsing". Same with the other two that you mention.  If you are just saying that some people are observant at noticing where water lays on the ground, I have no problem with that, but to say that someone can mysteriously "know" that there are underground minerals or water in an area that has no exterior, visible evidence of that is just hocus pocus.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #122 on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:14 AM »
Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2013, 09:13:04 AM »
Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

All easily measurable and reproducible, however.
 
Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.

That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 09:13:32 AM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #124 on: May 29, 2013, 09:16:04 AM »
That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?

Things that are natural and are not yet discovered or understood.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 09:16:18 AM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2013, 09:26:49 AM »
Divination requires the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is.  In other words, magic…the occult…paganism…divination…ungodliness.

I wonder how do you explain to yourself radio, planes, nuclear energy... They also require "the trust in some unseen, unknown entity to provide something you have no idea where it may be or what that entity really is".

Um, no.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #126 on: May 29, 2013, 09:28:55 AM »

Not to create a false dilemma here, but there really are only two options, natural and supernatural.  Anything that is not discovered through natural means is by definition "supernatural"

It's quite a modern attitude. Quite limitted even 80 years ago.
Um, no.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2013, 09:34:51 AM »
That is perhaps because we know enough about the physical world that we no longer have to believe in something between natural and supernatural.  What would you call such a thing and how would you define it?  The natural world is the default position that God put things in order.  When He chooses to intervene, it is "supernatural".  Where does your "grey area" fit into that?

Things that are natural and are not yet discovered or understood.

But that is assuming they they actually work.  If dowsers had a success rate of 75% or something, I would agree with you.  All studies done have indicated they are no more successful than randomly selecting a place and drilling.  Obviously there are anecdotal stories of a dowser finding water, but I could do the same thing and hit water a certain percentage of the time as well.  That doesn't mean I'm gifted.  There is a huge confirmation bias that goes into dowsing and similar phenomena.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #128 on: May 29, 2013, 09:52:31 AM »
It doesn't matter whether it's working or not. I do not care. The only one thing I care is would  it be considered magic. I think it wouldn't in most cases.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2013, 10:29:18 AM »
Michał, the Church has never condemned science.  It is the study of natural law.

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

Now, you have to put dowsing into one of these categories because a force is at work and must have an origin.  If it is a Natural Force, then science would be able to measure it or lay the groundwork, since all of the forces you mentioned are indeed measurable by today's equipment.

If you say it is a Preternatural Force, then you are in the realm of angels and demons.  This is where witchcraft comes into play.

If you say that God Himself moves the rod, then the dowser is a prophet.  I don't think you are willing to go that far.

The blacksmith and the farmer use non-occult knowledge available to all men.  Technically, any able-bodied man can be a blacksmith or a farmer and use the principles that God has made available to all men.

A dowser is someone who markets a special access to unseen forces.

The reason I asked about the dowser selling his trade is that because the Church specifically condemns those who would sell Sacraments, which are the unseen powers of the Supernatural.  If a man has access to what is God's, and yet he sells his services, then he is in violation of a basic principle.

Yes, I am paid as a priest, but roughly half of the people who come to me for Sacraments don't pledge to the Church or give me a dollar.  I don't resent it, and I usually refuse 'trebi' because I don't want to stand before God with profiteering on my conscience.

The Holy Unmercinaries healed by God's grace rather than just medical principles, and so they are called 'unmercinary.'

Another aspect is one of 'reliability.'  If a dowser uses the principles of physical forces, then his work should be reliable because physics is not random.  Dowsing shows no such reliability in testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing#Scientific_appraisal).

If it is not physics, then it is not natural, which makes dowsing an Occult (Hidden) Art.

Clear-headedness is something you value in your Hyperdox Herman exploits.  Use it here, Michał. 



So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Does a potter sell the fruits of his job?

If it is not supernatural, then show its scientific foundations.

Again, why do you see the world only in the narrow modern way? There wasn't "science" understood in the same way as today for most of the people until the XXth century.

Now, explain how dowsing can follow anything like that.  A dowser walks around with a stick.  Supposedly, the stick miraculously twitches when it gets over the desired target.  There is no explanation for how it twitches other than "magic" or "divination".  Explain to me how that is in any way similar to what the blacksmith does.

- EM fields.
- Hygroscopy
- Biological sensitivity of some people (like those birds with compasses in their heads)
- Plant-feature to seek for water

You know. There might be plenty valid reasons that do not belong either to magic or "science".
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2013, 10:36:51 AM »
Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2013, 10:39:04 AM »
OK, what is your division?  I want to understand how you are thinking, because right now it seems rather nebulous, yet you do appear to have some certainties.

Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2013, 12:54:11 PM »
So, let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?

Well, now we are on to something.  What do you mean by 'people doing that for a living'?  Do you mean being paid?

Yes. My grandfather hired once a guy to find a place where to dig a well. It was a regular job. Like blacksmith or something.

As Michal has said again and again, such people do not think of dowsing as anything supernatural. It is no more a blessing than the skills of a blacksmith are.

Do you not feel a skillful blacksmith is a blessing?

So let me ask you this: do you think God would be pleased if someone was 'selling' His blessings?
Why can't people just answer a question and then ask theirs?


Why can't you actually read the context of a post before commenting on it? Look at what Father Giryus says.

I did.  I have paid extra attention to this thread and you still didn't answer the question.  Here, I will show you how it works.  I will answer yours.  No, I don't think a person can sell God's blessing, but attempting to do so it not something I believe pleases God.

Also, I have looked at what Father Giryus posted and have yet to find fault in his statement, but if you know something I do not I am willing to have my mind changed.

So you think it's wrong for a blacksmith to be paid for his work?

You apparently fail to grasp how this type of exchange works, but I see your faulty logic.  There is a difference between "selling" God's blessing and using a blessing God has given you to have an occupation.  

Dowsers use their skill to have an occupation, like blacksmiths. So what's the problem?

It is only a "skill" if it is something that can be explained through natural means.  I don't see anyone here or anywhere else giving any remotely feasible explanation of how this "skill" works other than some supernatural explanation. In that way, it would be more closely related to a prophet than a blacksmith, and I'm pretty sure the Church frowns on prophets selling their prophecies.

Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2013, 01:14:58 PM »
Quote
Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

Astrology = divination
Four Element Theory = an inadequate explanation that has been superceded by a better explanation
Humors = an inadequate explanation that has been superceded by a better explanation

There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science.  Dowing, astrology, etc, is not an example of bad science, it is an attempt to appeal to some supernatural power (whether it be good or evil) in an attempt to get information that only the supernatural being would have access to.  There is a big difference between asking God to help you find water and charging someone money to wander around with a stick hoping to access some "divine" power to get info. If it is real, it is witchcraft, if it is false, it is charlatanism.  Neither is good.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2013, 01:31:57 PM »

Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2013, 01:54:30 PM »

Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2013, 03:39:25 PM »
This thread is like a bad philosophical dialogue that doesn't go anywhere.

I could point to an enormous thread where Orthodox posters were (selectively) rejecting natural science for allegedly contradicting Church doctrine, but it would probably be opening a can of worms.

As I recall, Iconodule was the only poster who was able to take such a position and more-or-less defend it.

I'm sure he could do much better if he tried harder.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2013, 03:44:08 PM »
Sorry, I don't look to the Church to give me answers about how physics works and I don't look to science to tell me how God works.  Trying to mix the two is just a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2013, 03:59:10 PM »
There's a lot of people in this thread who are unfairly reading into others' posts. I will let the victims speak for themselves so as not to step on their toes or misrepresent them.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2013, 04:41:34 PM »
Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

I do not think there is anything I could add. Great summary.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2013, 04:56:24 PM »

Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.

Bolded parts indicate where you continue to misunderstand.

Let me clarify with some modern examples. Consider the concept of qi which underlies traditional Chinese medicine and many other traditional disciplines (e.g. qigong, martial arts, feng shui) in China. As far as I know, no one has yet been able to substantiate the existence of qi in a way which modern science would consider conclusive. I don't think any conclusive studies have done as to whether, say, acupuncture is effective, though you can find many people who swear by it. But the concept is usually presented and understood in a naturalistic fashion. Leaving aside entirely the question of whether it does in fact exist- some might say it's a "pseudo-scientific" idea- it represents a philosophy of the natural world which is neither sorcerous nor scientific in the modern sense. It is hardly an isolated phenomenon- there are countless such ideas around the world which break out of your dichotomy of scientific/ supernatural.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2013, 05:26:24 PM »

Astrology = divination

Not if you consider the stars to exert some natural influence on events on earth, which many people did. Perhaps you should take some time to study ancient cosmologies and the classical and medieval models.

Quote
There is only one natural order, it is the ruleset that God established the world to run under during normal circumstances.  Science is man's study of that natural order. There is good science and bad science; four elements is an example of bad science

Again, you completely fail to see how your entire concept of "good science" and the "natural order" is shaped by philosophies elaborated in the past couple of centuries and until recently accepted by only a tiny part of the human race. Until you can come to grips with that, it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this.

I understand the fact that evidence based science is a recent innovation and that much of the world until recently looked at it differently.  That doesn't mean we should just discard the knowledge that God has provided.  Only a tiny part of the human race accepts Orthodoxy as the one true Church, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the assertion is correct.  You can attempt to sidestep it all you want, the fact remains that that dowsing and astrology is an attempt to obtain supernatural knowledge through illegitimate means as I explained above.  For Orthodox Christians to go around proclaiming such attempts of divination to be acceptable only makes the Church look ridiculous.

Bolded parts indicate where you continue to misunderstand.

Let me clarify with some modern examples. Consider the concept of qi which underlies traditional Chinese medicine and many other traditional disciplines (e.g. qigong, martial arts, feng shui) in China. As far as I know, no one has yet been able to substantiate the existence of qi in a way which modern science would consider conclusive. I don't think any conclusive studies have done as to whether, say, acupuncture is effective, though you can find many people who swear by it. But the concept is usually presented and understood in a naturalistic fashion. Leaving aside entirely the question of whether it does in fact exist- some might say it's a "pseudo-scientific" idea- it represents a philosophy of the natural world which is neither sorcerous nor scientific in the modern sense. It is hardly an isolated phenomenon- there are countless such ideas around the world which break out of your dichotomy of scientific/ supernatural.

You insist on using the word scientific.  Science is merely man's observation of nature.  The dichotomy is natural/supernatural.  But, lets take your example of qi. Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits.  It is not something that Christians should be entertaining.  That is what the Church is for, not believing in arranging our house and blah, blah, blah. If you want to arrange your furniture because you think that feng shui principles make your house cool, that is fine, but it isn't true feng shui. Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian. So it is w/ dowsing.  If by dowsing you mean walking around trying to find a good place to put a well by identifying low points in the ground, then fine, that is no big deal. BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT DOWSING REALLY IS.

The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2013, 06:19:28 PM »
The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice.  My invocation of science has to do with the fact that nothing really has changed about dowsing that would allow one to, in the modern period, attempt to redefine it here.

Would you say the same thing about using astrology to predict the weather? How about explaining phenomena using four-elements theory, or the humors? Because many in the Church, including church fathers (such as St. John Damascene), thought these were part of natural science.

Again, people in this thread are confusing modern scientific assumptions with the teaching of the Church. There are many, many "sciences" throughout the world and throughout history which offer, based on their assumptions, a natural explanation for various phenomena which would not pass muster according to the modern scientific method. You may reject those assumptions, but to then conclude that such folk sciences can only be witchcraft or demon-worship is ludicrous.

The modern scientific philosophy that you are holding up as the standard for judging all claims about the natural world is quite new for the majority of mankind even today; prior to the 20th century it was restricted to a very small group of people mainly in Western Europe. This is the point that you, Kerdy, and Father Giryus are consistently failing to acknowledge or understand. You are treating a philosophy elaborated by Western thinkers in the 17th-18th centuries as a cornerstone of church teaching.

I do not think there is anything I could add. Great summary.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #143 on: May 29, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »

You insist on using the word scientific.  Science is merely man's observation of nature.  The dichotomy is natural/supernatural.  But, lets take your example of qi. Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits.  It is not something that Christians should be entertaining.  That is what the Church is for, not believing in arranging our house and blah, blah, blah. If you want to arrange your furniture because you think that feng shui principles make your house cool, that is fine, but it isn't true feng shui. Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian. So it is w/ dowsing.  If by dowsing you mean walking around trying to find a good place to put a well by identifying low points in the ground, then fine, that is no big deal. BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT DOWSING REALLY IS.

The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

TM? Is it just a coincidence that you used these words?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:10:27 PM by Rufus »

Offline converted viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #144 on: May 29, 2013, 07:17:29 PM »
Folks.  I did not mean for this question to start a donnybrook.   I apologize for opening a can of worms here.

Viking
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:18:28 PM by converted viking »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #145 on: May 29, 2013, 08:02:33 PM »
I have no problem following Kerdy' s and Father G' s arguments.

If dousing were shown to have a scientific basis at some point in the future, it would not present a problem just because we view it either with scepticism or fear of the occult today. In 18th century Christian cultures, both western AND Orthodox, a person postulating air and space travel, vaccinations, television,  etc... would have been at best be deemed insane and at worst, convicted of witchcraft. So what? The scientific method as it developed in the period beginning with the Enlightenment through the modern era proved all of that and more. At the present time there is no proof that there exists a scientific explanation or a "natural" explanation for dousing. Therefore, I place it in the same category as gypsy fortune telling. (Gypsies charge a fee for readings, so it shares that with the charging for dousing services) The issue really seems to me to be a non issue.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:04:06 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2013, 08:17:32 PM »
Feng Shui, as it is traditionally done, is designed to ward away evil spirits. 

No, not really. There is a broader concept of natural energies, some harmful, some beneficial, channeled by landforms and other aspects of geography. Evil spirits can enter into this but that is generally not a central consideration.

Quote
Now lets look at martial arts.  They use physical techniques to get a desired result.  They may couch it in qi language, but it is something that anyone with practice can do.  I did it for years as a form of physical exercise.  If you decide, however, to follow its traditional form which includes transcendental meditation and elements of Buddhist ideology, it becomes something unwholesome for a Christian.

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about. Buddhism is not essential to Chinese martial arts any more than any other religion; there are countless different schools and disciplines, some of which are attached to a specific religious lineage and some of which are decidedly not. As for "transcendental meditation", do you really have any idea what the term means?

Quote
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Modern science, while very useful in some areas, has serious blind spots and problems, even just looking at nature. Dowsing aside (and I am not personally a believer in dowsing as a reliable method of finding water), there are vast expanses of nature which modern science cannot touch because they cannot be quantified or reduced to fit its methods. Modern science has built into it some fundamental assumptions about reality and the phenomenal world which, if taken as dogma, which you are doing here, are incompatible with the Christian cosmology.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #147 on: May 29, 2013, 08:23:10 PM »
Folks.  I did not mean for this question to start a donnybrook.   I apologize for opening a can of worms here.

Viking

Sometimes the simple questions are the best ones for building  a better understanding of what Faith means, and why things have no part in that.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #148 on: May 29, 2013, 08:28:47 PM »
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #149 on: May 29, 2013, 09:21:24 PM »
So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  How do you define what is acceptable and what is not?
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2013, 12:08:39 AM »
Let's break it down this way: in the world, there are a number of forces at work-

Natural Forces, such as gravity and magnetism and heat.
Preternatural Forces, such as demonic and angelic activity.
Supernatural Forces, such as divine grace.

I disagree with this division. Or more precisely, I do not disagree but I acknowledge the fact others may have and actually have other views.
I'm sure they do...

Tell us your categorization, where and why it would fall there.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2013, 12:33:48 AM »
So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  How do you define what is acceptable and what is not?
Truthfully, it depends on the person and their society/culture.  Rarely does one now lean to God/The Church/Christianity, etc. for answers.  It's easier to lean toward what they, as individuals, think rather than what really is.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 12:34:54 AM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2013, 07:03:45 AM »
So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable? 

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2013, 08:10:56 AM »
So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable? 

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.

So would you agree or disagree with the standard definition of divination and occult in the dictionary that states:

div·i·na·tion
[div-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.


oc·cult
[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt]
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2.
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3.
secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »
So a question for all of you, if such things as dowsing, astrology, etc are not problematic, what sort of occultic/divination practices are unacceptable?  

Anything involving invoking/ consulting with spirits or worship of creatures.

So would you agree or disagree with the standard definition of divination and occult in the dictionary that states:

div·i·na·tion
[div-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.


oc·cult
[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt]
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2.
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3.
secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

Sure, I see nothing wrong there. Those definitions are quite open-ended. Does occult mean supernatural or simply mysterious, hidden, etc.?

St. John Damascene's belief that stars could be used to predict weather might be considered "occult" by some, though he didn't see anything particularly magical or supernatural about it.

Again, the things we are discussing are not supernatural. Most dowsers, for instance, will claim that their art depends upon magnetism or some other natural phenomenon.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 08:17:30 AM by Iconodule »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2013, 08:23:19 AM »
Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  :P), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  ???
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2013, 08:40:24 AM »
Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  :P), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  ???

I'm sure you can find websites making similar claims for all kinds of ostensibly respectable professions. You might be surprised, for instance, how many people will cite the "law of attraction" to explain their success in their particular trade.

On the other hands, in places throughout Russia and Eastern Europe, some geologists make scientific claims in favor of dowsing. They did not bring supernatural explanations, but cite magnetism or other natural "energy fields" (comparable to feng shui theory).

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2013, 09:08:35 AM »
Every dowsing website that I have looked at (which is quite a few actually since this thread started  :P), always includes a spiritual, "psychic" element into the explanation of dowsing. Here is just one quote that I found from the first site that I googled this morning.

"From spiritual point of view Dowsing takes place when your mind connects and vibrates in harmony with your soul (as an extension of Higher Source). Information needed is given to dowsers from higher dimensions, penetrates his physical existence and manifest itself as a movement of pendulum."

I don't see how this doesn't fit the definition of a occult divination.  ???

I'm sure you can find websites making similar claims for all kinds of ostensibly respectable professions. You might be surprised, for instance, how many people will cite the "law of attraction" to explain their success in their particular trade.

On the other hands, in places throughout Russia and Eastern Europe, some geologists make scientific claims in favor of dowsing. They did not bring supernatural explanations, but cite magnetism or other natural "energy fields" (comparable to feng shui theory).
Some atheists have the opinion God does not exist.  Opinions don't really mean much when faced with the teachings of God.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #159 on: May 30, 2013, 10:23:09 AM »
The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #160 on: May 30, 2013, 10:32:27 AM »
The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.

Yeah, by you and FrGiryus.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #161 on: May 30, 2013, 10:51:52 AM »
The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
You've been given plenty.

Yeah, by you and FrGiryus.
I'm not sure what this means, but if proof isn't good enough for you, nothing ever will be.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #162 on: May 30, 2013, 05:26:57 PM »
Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.



The problem with the summary is that it fails to acknowledge that in the 'pre-Modern' or 'pre-Scientific' period, dowsing was not seen as a physical science, but an occult practice. 

Proof?

Am I the only one disscouraged with low-flying quantifiers?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #163 on: May 30, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »
What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #164 on: May 30, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »
What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
I don't care about murder being wrong in any other aspect except in the ancient Mayan civilization.  I do not care about the origin of murder, the first murder, or what has been taught about murder.  Some people think if you pray to God over someone you are about to sacrifice it pleases God.  Now prove human sacrifice is wrong using only my quantifiers.

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:55:25 PM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #165 on: May 30, 2013, 06:05:26 PM »
I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong. Looking for water - not really. If you fe. rape someone in order to find water - it's wrong then. If you check on the map when the nearest spring is - it's not wrong.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #166 on: May 30, 2013, 06:59:44 PM »
Did you look at the book I cited?  Look at the Classical Greek references to water-witching as a form of divination.

Obviously, you are better equipped than most of us here to delve into 19th century Polish church sources, as with the 20th century as well.  I can't speak to your local church's practices.

What I can say is that the Church's view of divination is that it is wrong, and it used the Classical definitions of divination in its condemnations.  What I doubt exists is something like, "St. Basil the Great On Dowsing."  If you will only accept a specific condemnation, then you will likely never be satisfied.

But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

Read 6th EC LXI, Ancyra XXIV, & Basil LXXXIII.  I think you will have difficulty finding any Father condoning dowsing, just as you will have great difficulty finding any of the Fathers attributing a physical explanation to the practice.


What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #167 on: May 30, 2013, 07:00:37 PM »
Would you agree that looking for water is wrong if you are using sorcery as the means to find it?

I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong. Looking for water - not really. If you fe. rape someone in order to find water - it's wrong then. If you check on the map when the nearest spring is - it's not wrong.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #168 on: May 30, 2013, 07:13:48 PM »
Hello everyone:

I think I mentioned before that the reason I threw this question out on the forum was that I am having a problem with the sewer system at my house that was built in the 50s.   My wife and I purchased the place 15 years ago or longer, my memory fails me right now.  We have city water and sewer here but some block head decided to hook up part of the system up on the old drain field apparently to save some time and money.  That being said I decided to try dowsing rods to find the line that runs out to the back yard and for what it is worth the rods worked.  It really creeped me out after I gave it some thought.

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2013, 12:47:16 AM »
I hope you see what's wrong with that statement because its the same thing which is wrong with yours.

No it's not.

Murder is always wrong.

Proof?  Remember the quantifiers.  Also, some people think it is ok to kill someone if that person wants you to kill them.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 12:53:03 AM by Kerdy »

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2013, 12:49:43 AM »
It isn't a bad thing if you are using the Ouija to speak to God and the Tarot cards if you pray to a saint prior to using them...right? ;)

Did you look at the book I cited?  Look at the Classical Greek references to water-witching as a form of divination.

Obviously, you are better equipped than most of us here to delve into 19th century Polish church sources, as with the 20th century as well.  I can't speak to your local church's practices.

What I can say is that the Church's view of divination is that it is wrong, and it used the Classical definitions of divination in its condemnations.  What I doubt exists is something like, "St. Basil the Great On Dowsing."  If you will only accept a specific condemnation, then you will likely never be satisfied.

But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

Read 6th EC LXI, Ancyra XXIV, & Basil LXXXIII.  I think you will have difficulty finding any Father condoning dowsing, just as you will have great difficulty finding any of the Fathers attributing a physical explanation to the practice.


What I said about quantifiers.

I am not interested how it was performed or perceived in XVth century Germany or XVIth century France. I do not care about its origins or what Martin Luther said about it.

All I want to know is that how it was performed in "traditional" Orthodox communities. How it was treated both by those who practced it and by others. And how did the (Orthodox) Church perceived it. Especially in my area in the XIXth century and the first half of XXth one.

Here is a wiki-article with plenty of citations for you to chase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

If none of those suit you, then there is this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QGwSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=water+witching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48KnUf2WOa_MigLYyYGICQ&ved=0CEQQuwUwAQ

If you want to spend the money, Google Books can provide you with plenty of other references that all pretty much tell the same tale: dowsing has ancient origins as a form of divination.  In the pre-scientific period, it was not thought of as a physical science.  When scientifically studied, it has eluded any type of demonstration of its effectiveness, which would then exclude any modern physical explanation.

So, I've pretty much said all that I can at this point.  If the books I have cited are not 'proof,' then I really don't know what else is.

Michał, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I do wish you would realize that I wasn't saying what I am saying just because I 'feel' it, but because there are many historians who have classified 'water witching' as an occult practice based on historical evidence.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2013, 12:52:17 AM »
Hello everyone:

I think I mentioned before that the reason I threw this question out on the forum was that I am having a problem with the sewer system at my house that was built in the 50s.   My wife and I purchased the place 15 years ago or longer, my memory fails me right now.  We have city water and sewer here but some block head decided to hook up part of the system up on the old drain field apparently to save some time and money.  That being said I decided to try dowsing rods to find the line that runs out to the back yard and for what it is worth the rods worked.  It really creeped me out after I gave it some thought.

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Viking

It may at that.  How many demons have presented themselves as messengers from God to deceive people?  This is why we are instructed to test such spirits.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2013, 06:49:47 AM »
There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2013, 09:14:28 AM »
There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."



Your assumption if flawed. While SOME  folks attribute the unknown to the supernatural, angelic or demonic, most of us are intuitive enough to shrug and assume either a healthy skepticism or plain indifference.

But water divination seems to me a bad example as most place it to the same category of unprovens like tarot, palm reading and the like. Acupuncture, hypnotic therapy and even chiropractic are out of mainstream, but they can demonstrate palpable results. I can't define the difference, but humans are intuitive creatures. The former generally are viewed as fraudulent with no measurable positive result, while the latter have measurable results. The former require belief in their efficacy, the latter generally don't require any underlying belief.

Frankly, I am indifferent to water divination as I think the slippery slope fears of some are overblown.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #174 on: May 31, 2013, 09:19:13 AM »
Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #175 on: May 31, 2013, 10:13:35 AM »
So, what do you think is going on?

There are forces at play that are good and evil and I think in many cases those that might seem good are in fact evil but we just don't know it.  I am thinking that possibly this might apply in the above case.

Again the assumption here is, "It can't be explained in a lab- therefore it must be angels or demons." It's a lot like "God of the Gaps."


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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #176 on: May 31, 2013, 10:45:06 AM »
Could anyone've divined that this topic would've generated this amount and level of discourse?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #177 on: May 31, 2013, 11:24:40 AM »
Based on the emails I get, yes, though without much 'divination.'  magic and Orthodoxy have a long relationship.    :D

Could anyone've divined that this topic would've generated this amount and level of discourse?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #178 on: May 31, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »
But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #179 on: May 31, 2013, 11:41:17 AM »
Well, dear, looking for water is not wrong.  How you look for it can be.  Using a divining rod goes back to classical antiquity as an occult art, like pendulums and auguries.

Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?


But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #180 on: May 31, 2013, 11:47:17 AM »
But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).

I'm taking this info from dowsers themselves, but they define it as such: "Dowsing is the exercise of a human faculty, which allows one to obtain information in a manner beyond the scope and power of the standard human physical senses of sight, sound, touch, etc."

http://www.dowsers.org/dowsing/about-asd/history-of-dowsing

The dowsers themselves seem to admit that what they are doing cannot be catagorized as natural since it is something that is beyond normal human sensory perception.  I think you could replace dowsing with prophecy in their definition and it would be equally accurate.  Do you disagree?
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #182 on: May 31, 2013, 12:19:29 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.
We need to start up a call 1-800 for Cleo line for this dude.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #183 on: May 31, 2013, 12:32:56 PM »
Back in my home region, there is a certain quite famous priest-famous locally-that opens the Gospel book (they say "deschide pravila") to tell the future etc. It has been going on for decades and the church authorities don't seem to care all that much.
We need to start up a call 1-800 for Cleo line for this dude.



If only people from where our dear friend hails didn't invariably sound like Dracula when speaking English. Then again, maybe that would be a selling point.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #184 on: May 31, 2013, 12:34:09 PM »
I sound like Dracula and it's definitely a selling point.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #185 on: May 31, 2013, 12:42:25 PM »
Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?

I think dowsers themselves have detailed explanations what they do and how they do it.

I'm taking this info from dowsers themselves, but they define it as such: "Dowsing is the exercise of a human faculty, which allows one to obtain information in a manner beyond the scope and power of the standard human physical senses of sight, sound, touch, etc."

http://www.dowsers.org/dowsing/about-asd/history-of-dowsing

The dowsers themselves seem to admit that what they are doing cannot be catagorized as natural since it is something that is beyond normal human sensory perception.  I think you could replace dowsing with prophecy in their definition and it would be equally accurate. 

Or Calculus. Or waving one's ears at will. Or any thing some people can do and some are not able to do no matter how they try.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #186 on: May 31, 2013, 01:01:52 PM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

What do you say?  You've made your disbeliefs plain, so tell us what you believe.


Unless you can explain what makes the rod move, you really cannot say whether it is right or wrong, can you?

I think dowsers themselves have detailed explanations what they do and how they do it.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #187 on: May 31, 2013, 01:04:03 PM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2013, 01:08:27 PM »
How many people on this forum are familiar with your neck of the woods?

Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #189 on: May 31, 2013, 03:34:19 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #190 on: May 31, 2013, 03:42:03 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 03:42:32 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #191 on: May 31, 2013, 05:02:32 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #192 on: May 31, 2013, 05:22:43 PM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.
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Offline converted viking

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #193 on: May 31, 2013, 07:21:01 PM »
Well this is a surprise to say the least !   I had no idea my question would start a brawl.   This whole discussion is going around and around like my dog chasing its tail.  Good grief !!!

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #194 on: May 31, 2013, 07:25:07 PM »
No worries viking, this is just a nice debate.  Just wait until we start taking things personally.  :P
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #195 on: May 31, 2013, 07:26:55 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

I am just thinking out loud here, but I would feel comfortable saying that all knowledge comes to us through either natural (sensory) or supernatural means.  I can't think of any other ways it might come.
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #196 on: June 01, 2013, 12:32:38 AM »
But, you will also be able to offer your friends a friendly game of Ouija after reading their Tarot cards, which also are not specifically condemned AFAIK.  However, the general acts of spirit communication are, as are the use of other means to foretell the future.  If you add practices designed to reveal hidden objects, then it would naturally fit into that category.

I'm yet to be proved that looking for water requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

3, 4, and 5 (consequently from 4 being wrong).

Fingers in ears, eyes closed, repeating, "Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah!  I can't hear you!"

You have been given an abundance of information which proves opposite of your position.  The fact you completely ignore it means little.  Believe as you WANT.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #197 on: June 01, 2013, 12:34:42 AM »
Do all dowsers say the same thing?

They don't. That's why said I'm interested in my neck of woods only.

Then you are not interested in an Orthodox perspective.  I had my suspicions.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #198 on: June 01, 2013, 12:35:58 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

Just wait until voodoo dolls become the topic.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #199 on: June 01, 2013, 01:04:35 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

Just wait until voodoo dolls become the topic.
I'm yet to be proved that a voodoo doll requires some spirit communication or foretelling the future.

 ;) ;D
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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #200 on: June 01, 2013, 06:14:35 AM »
I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

No one has proved it's always occultic.

Then you are not interested in an Orthodox perspective.  I had my suspicions.

Martin Luther or some Baptists are not Orthodox no matter how convincing you are.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #201 on: June 01, 2013, 08:57:45 AM »
For what it worth, perhaps SOME dowsers are akin to so-called "mentalists". Once thought to possess supernatural skills such as mind reading etc.. most folks these days realize that "mentalists" have highly developed  observational skills. In popular literature, the Sherlock Holmes character is an example. On contemporary television the drama called the Mentalist is another. In the Mentalist, the main character is a skilled performer who had a popular Vegas act as a telepathic type. After his family is murdered he realizes his life is a fraud and becomes a police consultant. He makes it clear to the police that his "gift" is simply all about putting what he sees into context, picking up on physical reactions of people, being hyper observant and using logic. Granted,he has more highly developed skills but so do card counters in Blackjack. A summer film on a similar theme called "Now you See Me" is due out in June.

So, it is logical to argue that some successful water seekers simply see things you and i miss...subtle changes in elevation, where certain mosses grow, slight evidence of natural salt licks and slight animal tracks. Nothing supernatural there, just things modern man has forgotten.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #202 on: June 01, 2013, 10:06:49 AM »
But you have not proved how it could not be.  You have not given us your theory from which your doubts emanate.  Tell us, what forces do you believe guide the rod.

BTW, in response to another poster, I don't 'take this personally,' and I appreciate that my friend Michał and I can disagree and not get disrespectful of one another.


I'm confused as to how something so occultic is so controversial.

No one has proved it's always occultic.

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Re: Dowsing and divning rods, what does the Church say?
« Reply #203 on: June 01, 2013, 02:46:51 PM »
It will be interesting to see how different posters respond to this breakdown. It ought to show where everyone stands.

I've edited you numbering for clarity.

Here are the premises I am working from, please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1. All forces are created by God
2a. All forces operate on either a natural plane, or outside of the natural plane (supernatural)
2b. Supernatural forces can be either good or corrupted
3. The forces used in dowsing cannot be explained by natural causes and therefore can be either good or corrupted, but not both
4. Dowsing has been used by occultists and has commonly been associated with sorcery until recently
5. Since the forces have traditionally resulted from corruption, they cannot be good.

Based on 2 and 3, I'm inferring (as I think you said earlier) that you consider the distinction between natural and supernatural to lie in one's ability to examine the phenomenon by the empirical method and direct observation with the five senses. Here you are:
The natural world is identified by evidentiary, reproducible phenomenon.  We may not understand why something does what it does, but we at least have a framework for figuring it out.  That framework is science.  Your grey area that you are advocating has no evidence that it exists, it is not reproducible, and it is reliant on confirmation bias for its continued existence.

Under this definition, there is simply no basis for saying that everything that lies outside the natural order is either good or evil. If something cannot be subjected to the empirical method, it does not follow that what you're left with is angels and devils.

What other forces could be at work? I have no way of scientifically knowing.

I don't think anyone here would go dowsing, although I'm sure that if our lives depended on it, some of us would venture a try. But that fact that you cannot scientifically explain dowsing does not mean that the "forces of light and darkness" are at work.

Do you have a way of unscientifically knowing?  Because that seems like it would be prophecy.

Well, I think there is another easy explanation for dowsing:  It is bunk.  But if you do believe that it works, I think that you are left with a moral question as to its causality.

This raises the questions: what is science, and what is prophecy?

Unless you define the terms very broadly, I doubt you will be able to construct a system where all knowledge is either scientific or prophetic.

I am just thinking out loud here, but I would feel comfortable saying that all knowledge comes to us through either natural (sensory) or supernatural means.  I can't think of any other ways it might come.

Frankly, I'm not comfortable with the whole natural/supernatural distinction in the first place. Although I don't believe in any forces or senses that could make dowsing possible, I don't see what the point is in calling physical matter "nature" and calling spiritual things "the supernatural." It all seems like part of a tendency to create an unfairly strong dichotomy between science and religion...a way of keeping them out of each other's business. Of course, in older times, such a dichotomy was unheard of, although there are premonitions of it among the ancient Greeks.

For most people in Western history, everything that existed was part of nature, including spirits (which were not distinguished form "natural" forces..heh). So for such people, dowsing could be seen no differently from using a magnetic compass.

There's a lot more to investigate in this matter.

Incidentally, the forum's spellchecker incorrectly thinks that "each other's" should be "each others'."

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