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Author Topic: Apparent pro-Petrine Easterners...  (Read 7907 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 19, 2005, 09:39:08 PM »

Ok, I know there was a massive discussion abotu this before, as some folks have noted. However, I wanted to ask a question anyhow.

Quote
"(Peter) The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples." John Chrysostom, Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407).

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407).


Ok, os obviously there are many Eastern quotes that seem to back the ROman Petrine ecclesiology. How do you conform these and other(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,4986.45.html) writings to Orthodox understanding of them? I mean, how do you all pit and refute RC teaching in light of yours?

Frankly, "Latins" love to wield these quotes to refute you all.

Please don't interpret this as a baiting topic.

God bless

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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2005, 09:43:04 PM »

Matthew7:15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2005, 09:48:22 PM »

Are you saying that... basically dozens of Eastern Church Fathers, approved by both East and West, were wolves in sheeps clothing?? Shocked  :-

Doesn't help me much, otherwise.
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2005, 09:56:13 PM »

I believe that papal supremacy is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2005, 09:59:11 PM »

As many Orthodox do,  assume.

However, this is one thing that's kept me lingering between converting to Orthodoxy or remaining Roman Catholic.

Look, I'm not out to start a furor, but I merely want to comprehend how Easterners defend thhemselves against Latins who wield these potentially, or allegedly, pro-Papacy Eastern sayings.
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 10:01:04 PM »

I have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church and therefore, I would rather not argue this with you. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 10:07:00 PM »

It's interesting; I used to read those quotes and think "wow they really prove papal supremacy" when I was a convicted Catholic.  Once I was exposed to Orthodoxy though I picked up the same books and read them differently.  It was amazing to see how many of these quotes are very much influenced by context.  While some are definitely pro-Petrine, they are in the minority of the patristic corpus and the best proof against them is that the conciliar Church never approved of papal supremacy.

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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 10:18:13 PM »

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I believe that papal supremacy is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Quote
I have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church and therefore, I would rather not argue this with you.  Smiley

I am desperately trying to figure out your line of thought, because it doesn't add up to me.

First, you denounce the papacy and call it a wolf in sheep's clothing, but then you say you have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church, which obviously believes in the papacy, or else it would be Orthodox.

You are either a very, very confused little feller, or a troll.

Perhaps a little from column "a" and a little from column "b", I've yet to decide and the more I read your posts the less I can understand where you are coming from.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 10:26:36 PM »





I am desperately trying to figure out your line of thought, because it doesn't add up to me.

First, you denounce the papacy and call it a wolf in sheep's clothing, but then you say you have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church, which obviously believes in the papacy, or else it would be Orthodox.

You are either a very, very confused little feller, or a troll.

Perhaps a little from column "a" and a little from column "b", I've yet to decide and the more I read your posts the less I can understand where you are coming from.

In Christ,
Aaron

Simple. I believe that Byzantine Catholics are misguided in their belief in the papacy but we share enough in common that I am willing to tolerate the Byzantine Catholic Church.
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 10:37:16 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Church's faith is the same faith of the Roman Catholic Church, of which they are in communion with. Just because one is a Byzanatine Catholic doesn't mean that you can throw indulgences, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary and other beliefs out the window, because by being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church you espouse those beliefs.

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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 10:40:43 PM »

At certain points I have thought that perhaps I would start collecting quotes to be used as proof texts for defending Orthodox ecclesiology. I guess I never will though. The most I can do is point you to the following material...

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html

Whether the argumentation and sources are all valid, I don't know. I remember reading through it one time before, though I don't recall what I thought other than "gee, this is going to be harder to figure out than I thought". Smiley It does have a somewhat lengthy section on Chrysostom (5,400 words); and at least it would give you some alternative quotes to chew on.
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 11:05:51 PM »

I still respect the Pope and believe him to be first among equals.
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 11:17:06 PM »

A good read Paradosis, I might have read it before, and I have no problems with the info or thoughts.

There is only one head of the Church, one cornerstone/rock, He is the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ.

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 11:21:14 PM »

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There is only one head of the Church, one cornerstone/rock, He is the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ.

Amen!

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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 11:37:46 PM »

Here and here are two places where I give my little shpiel about my heavenly patron and his confession.

Matthew --

Would you mind doing several of us a favor?  Just common courtesy...when someone asks a question, could you please not answer with some vague Scripture reference that doesn't have an explanation attached as to why you've included it?  To use the "wolf in sheep's clothing" passage as your entire response seems as though you're trying to be deep just for the sake of being deep (though you're just being confusing and frustrating).

It also doesn't help, as Arystarcus mentioned, that you follow your statement of disdain for the papacy with apparent disclaimers that some who hold to this belief are nonetheless all right in your book.  You cannot have this both ways, no matter how much you say it's "just the way you feel about it" (I know you've never used that phrase, but it's very much the way you come across).

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 01:14:15 AM »

Here and here are two places where I give my little shpiel about my heavenly patron and his confession.

You cannot have this both ways, no matter how much you say it's "just the way you feel about it" (I know you've never used that phrase, but it's very much the way you come across).


Why shouldn't I have tolerance for fellow Christians, especially those who we share so much in common with?
I do not believe in papal supremacy but I am sympathetic and apathetic toward those who do. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they must have some reason for what they believe.
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 01:19:25 AM »

Matthew,

What does tolerance have to do with anything? We're not talking about tolerance, we are talking about truth vs. error. Obviously if I met a Catholic on the street I would not whip out a prayer rope and start thrashing him with it.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 01:23:28 AM »

Matthew,

We should be tolerant of all peoples. I should be tolerant of the atheism of my family and peers, but that doesn't mean I should accept it as truth, or acceptable. Which is not to say that non-Orthodox = atheists, but just that this is not a matter of tolerance but of discerning truth. We can love someone without espousing his/her beliefs.

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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 01:27:17 AM »

We have to accept that things are more complex than what we would like them to be.
Even though the papacy is corrupt, they do have well-developed interpretations of the Bible and the works of the church fathers to back up their claim to supremacy.

Pretty much everyone at my church is appreciate of Roman Catholicism, even though we find that in certain aspects, they are in error.

I really am not fond of Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism triumphalism from either side.
It is hard for me to look at an actual bleeding host at a Catholic mass and not believe that somehow they have as much right to claim to belong to the "One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" as we do.

Aren't we all catholic, at least with a small "c"?

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“GǪto be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

"[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 02:25:07 AM »

Matthew,

What in the world are you talking about? I must be obtuse, because I don't have a clue what the quotes you posted have to do with anything you are talking about, other than the fact that they happen to have the word "Catholic" in them. Have you ever read Against Heresies by Ireneaus? Have you ever read... well... anything at all by Tertullian? The fact that you quote them (and that you quote those works in particular) in a post talking about how we should try to be understanding and tolerant is just too funny. It's a joke, isn't it? Come on, come clean with us.
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2005, 02:30:13 AM »

Joke? Did you read what I said in my post before I quoted the fathers?

My point is that though we are divided through centures of misunderstanding, we both have the right to claim to be "the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2005, 03:13:48 AM »

How can Christ be divided? Why is it that the Church declared Arians outside the Church, even Novationists outside the Church (they had not doctrinal differences) but the Church cannot do the same for Catholics that have fallen away from Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 03:26:31 AM »

Arians are heretics who deny the trinity and the divinity of Christ, Catholics are not.
For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you. 
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2005, 08:19:16 AM »

Dude, what ARE you??

For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.

So, Catholics aren't separated from the Church, in your mind.  Man...if you as an Orthodox Christian can't think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy--and all the Catholics on the board know that I have a deep love, respect and admiration for the ancient western liturgies--then you shouldn't be Orthodox.  You should be in a faith that has a more open idea of what the Church is, because this ain't it.
 
Quote
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.

"Bible-believing"...now THAT takes me back to my Evangelical days...the members of your church, however, do not constitute the total mind of the Church.

Quote
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you.

Well, it obviously means something to YOU, but your PERSONAL experience doesn't mean the entire Church must change a universal practice!  Certainly we can be civil and grateful on an individual basis, and certainly the offer from the school was generous, but this DOESN'T mean we open up the Chalice!

Matthew, I am sorry that your church seems to have taken you in a radically different direction than that of the majority of Orthodox churches out there.  I do admire your willingness to be informed about other faiths--I try to do the same myself--but you seem to be willing to expose yourselves to them more than is perhaps healthy (though this could just be my own paranoia) or, at the very least, you give them more than the benefit of the doubt, saying that there's nothing really wrong with, say, Byzantine Catholics when your own Church--which is much larger and quite different than your home parish, apparently--says quite differently.  You offer quotes that seem to want to take down walls of division between Catholics and Orthodox, or Muslims and Orthodox, as if these walls served no purpose but rather only hindered something good.  Those walls, however, are what keep us out of danger.  To say that we can go beyond them and think about tearing them down is reckless.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2005, 12:09:44 PM »

I mean, how do you all pit and refute RC teaching in light of yours?

I think there’s a few issues to consider. First, like proof texting from the Bible, you have to consider the context and wider meaning of what is being said; who is being addressed, what are the circumstances, what else did they go on to say, how was this discerned through the mind of the church as a whole? The other is to take a look at the historical development of the office of the Papacy, especially after the 10th century with the increasing assumption of temporal power. Would the Fathers quoted say the same things now? Would they agree with the Papacy as it has become defined? Were they to come back now, would they find the church of their times represented in the Roman Catholic tradition or that of Orthodoxy?

This article from the Catholic journal Commonweal I think succinctly puts its finger on the problem with the Papacy and the Curia. Primacy is not the problem, but supremacy, and ultimately really Ultramontanism have to be rejected. The current Pope has made many welcome gestures to the East, but he also beatified Pius IX, which is probably an indication of what the future of the Papacy is going to be. 

Those are all issues to consider when looking at the quotes.


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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2005, 02:17:06 PM »

Dude, what ARE you??
 

An Orthodox Christian, an intellectual college student, and a proud American. Wink

Man...if you as an Orthodox Christian can't think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy

Before I converted to Orthodoxy, I deeply hated the Catholic Church and believed the papacy to be the anti-Christ. At St. Gregorios, I learned the importance for an Orthodox Christian to understand, appreciate, and respect the Roman Catholic Church. In his sermons, Father Michael says that the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and the fullness of the Holy Mysteries, just as we do.
For me to think of Catholicism as heresy would undermine my faith in Orthodoxy, what I have learned from attending my Orthodox Church and how I hold fast to it.

"Bible-believing"...now THAT takes me back to my Evangelical days...the members of your church, however, do not constitute the total mind of the Church.

What I mean by "Bible-believing" is that one does not have the correct interpretation of the Bible without Apostolic Tradition, the Church Fathers, and Apostolic Succession. We do not claim that these are exclusive to the members of our Church, but are shared in common between the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic Churches.

Matthew, I am sorry that your church seems to have taken you in a radically different direction than that of the majority of Orthodox churches out there.


Having a mutual respect for the Roman Church is the right direction, and the members of my church would agree with that. This does not mean ignoring the bad things about the Roman Church such as the "Liturgical Renewel", etc. But these bad things do not make us hate Catholicism, they just remind us of how much we should appreciate and hold fast to our own faith.

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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2005, 02:18:45 PM »

Apparently you've replaced Pope John Paul II with Father Michael.
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2005, 02:22:20 PM »

Father Michael is not infallible but he has yet to teach me anything that goes in contradiction with The Bible, the Church or with reason.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2005, 02:29:34 PM »

How can Christ be divided? Why is it that the Church declared Arians outside the Church, even Novationists outside the Church (they had not doctrinal differences) but the Church cannot do the same for Catholics that have fallen away from Orthodoxy?

Didn't your church declare my church "outside the church"?
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2005, 02:40:55 PM »

Arians are heretics who deny the trinity and the divinity of Christ, Catholics are not.
For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you.

Novationists only disagreed with the Orthodox Church on the issue of when one could be readmitted to communion after apostasy.  When they set up a separate hierarchy, their sacraments were declared invalid by St. Cyprian and the local council of Carthage.

Anastasios
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2005, 03:27:46 PM »

But aren't our sacraments invalid according to your church?
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2005, 03:29:30 PM »

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In his sermons, Father Michael says that the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and the fullness of the Holy Mysteries, just as we do. For me to think of Catholicism as heresy would undermine my faith in Orthodoxy, what I have learned from attending my Orthodox Church and how I hold fast to it.

Father Michael is wrong and those in your church whom agree with him. In order to be a bishop, one has to believe and preach the Truth, in union with like-minded bishops. The Catholic Church holds and preaches heretical beliefs; hence, their bishops are false and so are their sacraments. The Catholic Church holds a vastly difference view of ecclesiology than we Orthodox. We don't affirm apostolic succession without right belief.

The heresy you continue to espouse on this forum is unbelievable.

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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2005, 03:32:22 PM »

The heresy you continue to espouse on this forum is unbelievable.

Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged" than to hastily arrive at a conclusion.
We should not make the a priori assumption that since the Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox, it is heretical.
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 03:33:29 PM »

But aren't my sacraments invalid according to your church?

By the strict interpretation, yes. There are many of our bishops however that are willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt (moreso than the Catholics) so I do not make statements against your Church's sacramental status (especially since I like your church so much).

Anastasios
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 03:34:32 PM »

Then why should my church make statements against the sacramental status of the Roman Church?
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 03:37:55 PM »



Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged" than to hastily arrive at a conclusion.
We should not make the a priori assumption that since the Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox, it is heretical.

You are either Orthodox or Heterodox. There is no assumption on anyone's part: if it's not Orthodox it's UNorthodox.

No one is being presumptuous. We are only following the OFFICIALLY DEFINED IN COUNCIL teaching of the Orthodox Church!

879, St Sophia: Filioque is heresy
1285, Blachernae: Filioque is heresy, even with "single spiration" language
1347, Hesychast Councils: the "simple essence" is heretical
1484, Constantinople: Roman Catholicism is heretical
1587, Jerusalem: Roman Catholicism is heretical
175(1): 4 eastern patriarchs: Roman Catholics must be baptized
1848: Reply of eastern patriarchs to Pope Pius: Papal primacy is heretical
1895: Encyclical of Eastern Patriarchs: Roman Catholicism is heretical.

I personally like Roman Catholics. I personally respect the RCC. I personally enjoy Tridentine Latin Mass. But my PERSONAL opinions mean NOTHING when the Orthodox Church synodically teaches something!

Anastasios
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2005, 03:39:44 PM »

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Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy?

No one is quickly jumping at anything. The Orthodox here are merely telling you what their Churches have taught for hundreds of years regarding the Roman Catholic communion. Such teachings were thought out and formulated for a longer period of time than you've been alive.

As a Roman Catholic, I take absolutely no offense to what even the most traditionalist members of this board think about my Church or its teachings. It's merely what they believe and what they are taught. I don't think they are right, but I'm not going to waste my time and theirs by arguing endlessly over what is essentially a pissing contest.

If you want to have this open minded and obviously non-Orthodox opinion on the ecclesiology of Catholics and Protestants, go right ahead but don't make it sound like your opinion is that of the entire Oriental Orthodox Church.

You're actually making our brother Tom here look like a Rudder-carrying traditionalist! Wink

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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 03:40:13 PM »

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Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged."

I am not dismissing anyone. I am not judging others. What I am doing is bearing witness to the Truth. I am sorry you find this offensive, but I will not compromise on the Faith of Orthodoxy. When I see someone who claims they are Orthodox, and states heresy like yourself, I will counter with the Truth.

Again, Matthew, I am not judging you personally...I am, however, judging the heresy that is coming out of your mouth.

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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 03:41:20 PM »

Then why should my church make statements against the sacramental status of the Roman Church?

Your Church is not our Church and both of our Churches are closer to one another than they are to Roman Catholicism. Your Church (Oriental Orthodox) does not make statements against Catholic sacraments and implicitly accepts them because your ecclesiology is slightly different than ours. The Eastern Orthodox, however, do not implicitly recognize Roman Catholic sacraments.

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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 03:43:41 PM »

In arguing your point with me, would it be proper to mention councils that my church neither participated in nor was invited to?

That to me is like expecting an atheist to believe in John 3:16.

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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 03:47:35 PM »

Can we discuss rather than debate? Anastasios was posting evidence which disproved your charge that members of this board were being "hasty" and "quickly" dismissing a group. 1,100+ years of saying the same thing is not what I would call hasty or quick.
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2005, 03:48:19 PM »

In arguing your point with me, would it be proper to mention councils that my church neither participated in nor was invited to?

That to me is like expecting an atheist to believe in John 3:16.



You said we were being judgmental, I said we were following our church's teaching and provided it. I then in a further explanation said that your Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, does not hold to the same position.
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2005, 03:50:58 PM »

I am not dismissing anyone. I am not judging others. What I am doing is bearing witness to the Truth.

My point is that the truth of Orthodoxy does not necessarily require Catholicism to be without truth.

 I love the Orthodox Church and this is where I find the fullness of liturgical life, apostolic tradition, fellowship, interpretation of scripture etc.
But just because I experience the truth in Orthodoxy, that does not automatically make whatever truth one experiences in the Roman Catholic Church untruthful.
Just because we experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity within Orthodoxy, that does not mean that Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness within their tradition also (even though I doubt that most American Catholics do.)

I am honestly sorry if the following analogy offends anyone:
If I were to make the a priori statement to a Catholic that since your Church is not Orthodox it is without Apostolic Truth, it would be rather similar to saying, "My dad can beat up your dad."
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2005, 03:51:49 PM »

I then in a further explanation said that your Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, does not hold to the same position.

I know but I wrote that entry before you said that. My bad.  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2005, 03:54:20 PM »

Can we discuss rather than debate? Anastasios was posting evidence which disproved your charge that members of this board were being "hasty" and "quickly" dismissing a group. 1,100+ years of saying the same thing is not what I would call hasty or quick.

But it would be rather hasty to accept what one is taught for face value without first considering the other side, or at least asking for evidence to back it up.
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2005, 04:09:12 PM »

Quote
But it would be rather hasty to accept what one is taught for face value without first considering the other side, or at least asking for evidence to back it up.

And it is equally hasty for you to assume that people who disagree with you on this subject have not done just that and "done their homework" so to speak.
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2005, 04:11:24 PM »

I do expect that everyone has done their homework and I do understand that there are good reasons for not accepting the Roman Church as a church of truth.
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2005, 04:13:24 PM »

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But just because I experience the truth in Orthodoxy, that does not automatically make whatever truth one experiences in the Roman Catholic Church untruthful.

Right. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholics believe in the Virginity of the Theotokos. Just because one is a Catholic does not make this truth false.

Quote
Just because we experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity within Orthodoxy, that does not mean that Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness within their tradition also (even though I doubt that most American Catholics do.)

But Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness because it fully resides only in Orthodoxy. Christ wants us to be complete. That is why the Holy Spirit guides Orthodoxy in all Truth. Christ does not want division.

Quote
If I were to make the a priori statement to a Catholic that since your Church is not Orthodox it is without Apostolic Truth, it would be rather similar to saying, "My dad can beat up your dad."

Not at all. It is YOU who take it to be offensive. Telling and sharing the Truth with someone who is not Orthodox is an act of love and compassion.

Orthodoxy is the only medicine that works...everything else is a sugar pill. Friends don't let friends take sugar pills.

Gregory

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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2005, 04:14:03 PM »

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But it would be rather hasty to accept what one is taught for face value without first considering the other side.

Just because we don't use politically correct ecumenical-speak, that doesn't mean that we haven't considered the "other side". Before you judged us as being judgmental, and condemned us as being condemning, did you consider the possibility that we had investigated the issues, and had simply come to a different (more acute) conclusion than you? I dare say, some of the participants on this forum have been investigating these issues longer than both of us have been alive. Even Catholics and Oriental Orthodox are trying to admonish you here. This is not about willfully blind Eastern Orthodox Christians who can't see past their own prayer rope.
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2005, 04:19:04 PM »

But what is wrong with ecumenical-speak? Grin
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2005, 04:25:27 PM »

My point is that the truth of Orthodoxy does not necessarily require Catholicism to be without truth.

No one here would dispute that. But that doesn't seem to be all you were saying. There's a big difference between "being without truth" and "having valid sacraments." Most every Christian confession out there has some measure of truth, but our Church has consistently taught that the Orthodox communion alone has valid sacraments, period, full stop.

But just because I experience the truth in Orthodoxy, that does not automatically make whatever truth one experiences in the Roman Catholic Church untruthful.


How right you are. Yet my search that led me here was not one for "whatever truth one experiences" in this or that communion. I was looking for the "all truth" into which Christ said the Holy Spirit would lead His Church.

Just because we experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity within Orthodoxy, that does not mean that Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness within their tradition also (even though I doubt that most American Catholics do.)

Ah, but there's the rub. The very fact that we do experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity necessarily precludes any other communion from experiencing the same. Were it otherwise, we'd be the same Church and nothing would separate us! For two separate, disagreeing bodies to experience the same fullness would constitute either two Churches established by Christ or an inability by one or both (and, ultimately, anyone) from determining where Orthodoxy ends.

If I were to make the a priori statement to a Catholic that since your Church is not Orthodox it is without Apostolic Truth, it would be rather similar to saying, "My dad can beat up your dad."

The Catholic Church isn't without Apostolic Truth; it just doesn't have all of it.

Quote
But it would be rather hasty to accept what one is taught for face value without first considering the other side, or at least asking for evidence to back it up.


I wouldn't call a thousand years a hasty decision. And you have done much more than merely consider the other side; you've gone so far that, were you Eastern Orthodox, you would have been outside the clear synodal decisions of the Church. We can look into the other side, as you have. We can even ask for evidence. But we cannot then openly disagree with our bishops' rulings of over a thousand years and still maintain that nothing is rotten in the state of Denmark. As Orthodox, we are bound to interpret situations through the lens our shepherds provide. I profess ignorance as to the precise Non-Chalcedonian stance towards the RCC (more lenient, iirc), but don't be surprised at the Eastern Orthodox insistence that, when all the dust settles, the Church has spoken; the matter is ended.

(Sorry for repeating some things said above  Tongue)
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2005, 04:33:22 PM »

But why make the conclusion that the Catholic sacraments are invalid?

When Catholic children in Spain open their mouths and a host miraculously appears on their toungs, are they receiving an invalid sacrament?

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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2005, 04:34:27 PM »

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Quote from: Matthew777 on Today at 02:50:58 PM
If I were to make the a priori statement to a Catholic that since your Church is not Orthodox it is without Apostolic Truth, it would be rather similar to saying, "My dad can beat up your dad."

The Catholic Church isn't without Apostolic Truth; it just doesn't have all of it.

could explain this? I dont see it this way I see that the RCC has all Apostolic Truth.  what do you think the RCC dont have that you do?

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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2005, 04:44:20 PM »

could explain this? I dont see it this way I see that the RCC has all Apostolic Truth.  what do you think the RCC dont have that you do?

Tabby,

First of all...welcome to the forum! Good to have you!

Secondly, a disclaimer...I don't have any personal animosity towards RCs. Thanks for asking in such a cordial manner.

OK, to answer your question (finally!), I would say that it's more along the lines of what the RCC has that we don't! Namely, additions to the faith such as the filioque, papal infallibility and ex cathedra, papal supremacy, the immaculate conception of Mary, too much dependance on scholasticism (seen most clearly to me in the unnecessary doctrine of transubstatiation), indulgences/purgatory/limbo, too much emphasis (and a wrong one, at that) on original sin, the doctrine of satisfaction atonement...yeah, that's all that's coming right off the top of my head.

I think two things that we would have that the RCC doesn't is much more consistent fidelity to liturgical integrity and traditional fasting rules.

All this leads me to believe that, were one to ask which confession more thoroughly encompasses the original deposit of faith, the above reasons would leave no doubt which one I'd pick.
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2005, 04:55:09 PM »

Namely, additions to the faith such as the filioque

I never really could understand this addition. Do they have any Scriptural reason for the flioque clause?

papal infallibility and ex cathedra

According to current Catholic teaching, the Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra and that the papacy has only spoken ex cathedra in declaring the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

papal supremacy

I believe that the Bishop of Rome is first among equals but is in no way absolutely authoritive over all other bishops.

the immaculate conception of Mary

Mary was, after all, without sin.

too much dependance on scholasticism

One cannot properly approach the mystical with the analytical and in that regard, Scholastic theology offends me.


I think two things that we would have that the RCC doesn't is much more consistent fidelity to liturgical integrity...


The one thing that totally bothers me about the Roman Church.

Even though the Catholic Church has problems, I fail to see how their sacraments are invalid. This is perhaps willfull ignorance on my part though I seriously doubt it.
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2005, 05:01:34 PM »

The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you.

What about the children of Protestant ministers? I really dislike when "being generous" by Catholics is defined as Catholics being generous to Orthodox and Orthodox to Catholics. I am generous to Catholics, but only as generous to them as I am to Protestants. And non-Christians!

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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2005, 05:02:45 PM »

But my point is that the Roman Church feels a special relationship with us that they do not share with Protestants.
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2005, 05:03:36 PM »

Having a mutual respect for the Roman Church is the right direction, and the members of my church would agree with that. This does not mean ignoring the bad things about the Roman Church such as the "Liturgical Renewel", etc. But these bad things do not make us hate Catholicism, they just remind us of how much we should appreciate and hold fast to our own faith.

You don't have to hate Roman Catholicism to disagree with it. You can respect the RCC without agreeing with it. I respect Judaism (the religion I was brought up with), but I don't agree with it. I don't hate Judaism, but I don't agree with it. I feel the same way towards the RCC.

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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2005, 05:04:44 PM »

But my point is that the Roman Church feels a special relationship with us that they do not share with Protestants.

So then it's not about being generous-- it's about "feeling a special relationship." Orthodoxy simply does not feel that special relationship with the RCC. We must love them, but just as we should love Anglo-Catholics (in fact, their faith is closer to that of Orthodoxy), or Lutherans, or Quakers, or even Jews and Buddhists and Taoists and Atheists.

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« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2005, 05:04:57 PM »

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Tabby,

First of all...welcome to the forum! Good to have you!

Thank you


Quote
Secondly, a disclaimer...I don't have any personal animosity towards RCs. Thanks for asking in such a cordial manner.

I never took what you said as if you did...thanks for clearing that up though...and you are welcome actually I was going to reword my message because giving it a second look one could take it as if I wanted to debate it or something like that...but I am glad you didnt...so i thank you.

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OK, to answer your question (finally!), I would say that it's more along the lines of what the RCC has that we don't! Namely, additions to the faith such as the filioque,

"filioque"? I am not sure I know what this is....I may but not in this term...I dont know so I cant respond to this...yet


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papal infallibility


This belief was shared for centuries of the papal infallibility until the church broke off....I was just curious why the change of feeling on this?

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immaculate conception of Mary

I just learned today that the orthodox dont believe this and learned why...I totally understand it...but dont believe it which my thoughts on this doesnt matter nor important...but it is cool to know what the belief is and why...


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too much dependance on scholasticism (seen most clearly to me in the unnecessary doctrine of transubstatiation),

I am sorry for me being stupid....but could you help me understand what you mean?

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indulgences/purgatory/limbo,


You dont believe in this? but it is in the bible...what do you believe...does one go straight to heaven?


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too much emphasis (and a wrong one, at that) on original sin

What do you mean too much emphasis on orignal sin? I am not understanding this. I know one needs to know about the orginal sin to know the importance of baptism...again I am sorry for not understanding...I am stupid...

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the doctrine of satisfaction atonement

Huh?


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yeah, that's all that's coming right off the top of my head.

I appreciate it.


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I think two things that we would have that the RCC doesn't is much more consistent fidelity to liturgical integrity and traditional fasting rules.

we fast and there are rules...not sure if anybody follows it or not...but I do...maybe there is a different rule between orthodox and RCC? if so what is your rule?


and again thanks










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« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2005, 05:05:03 PM »

Can't we be in a sense of awe and respect for what we do share in common with the Roman Church despite our divisions?
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« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2005, 05:09:52 PM »

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Just because we experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity within Orthodoxy, that does not mean that Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness within their tradition also (even though I doubt that most American Catholics do.)

This is the crux of the misunderstanding and the hardest thing for non-Orthodox to understand. Orthodoxy is not simply the "truest of all religions" or the belief system that is the purest. Orthodoxy is the Church because it is a living communion, not because it has all the right ideas. The Church is not about ideas; it's about a Person, and the communion with Him. If communion is severed, there is no Church. That's simply what it is. The Church is contained within the communion. The RCC, no matter how close in doctrine, or how far away in doctrine, is not part of the Orthodox communion. Therefore it is outside the Church. This is not about being un-loving towards RCs, no more than it is hateful to say to a Protestant, "you are not part of the Church." It just is what it is. Schism takes someone outside the communion of the Church... period.

John Zizioulas has a great chapter on eucharistic communion as the ontological basis of the Church called "Truth and Communion" in his wonderful book, Being As Communion.

Marjorie
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« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2005, 05:10:29 PM »

Can't we be in a sense of awe and respect for what we do share in common with the Roman Church despite our divisions?

Yes, and I feel this respect for Anglo-Catholics too-- and many Protestants. All Christians share much in common. But we are not all in communion with each other. And the Church is communion, not just a bunch of people with similar ideas.

Marjorie
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« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2005, 05:11:27 PM »

Technically, my church is not part of the Orthodox communion.
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« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2005, 05:13:43 PM »

Technically, my church is not part of the Orthodox communion.

True, but I am speaking from the EO vantage point.

Besides, the same theology of communion must apply to the OOs, no? The RCC is not in communion with the OOC...

Marjorie
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« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2005, 05:45:26 PM »

Matthew,

A curious question, when and what age did you become/join your Orthodox Church ?

I ask for reference only.

james
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« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2005, 05:59:59 PM »

"filioque"? I am not sure I know what this is....I may but not in this term...I dont know so I cant respond to this...yet

It's the part of the Creed where you say, "And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Those last three words are filioque in Latin and were added to the Creed in the 500s without the consent of the Eastern Church, who still doesn't include it in the Creed. So we see it as an illegal addition, as well as just plain false.

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This belief was shared for centuries of the papal infallibility until the church broke off....I was just curious why the change of feeling on this?

Huh. My understanding was that many bishops were under the impression that popes could err prior to V1.

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I am sorry for me being stupid....but could you help me understand what you mean [about scholasticism]?

Oh, you are not stupid!  Smiley All that means is the need to define everything. The word transubstantiation is how Rome defined the way in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. We just don't see how that's very important; we say it's a mystery and leave it at that.

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You dont believe in [indulgences/purgatory/limbo]? but it is in the bible...what do you believe...does one go straight to heaven?

Well, we believe in an intermediate state of the dead where we get our final purification before going to heaven, but it's for entirely different reasons than the purgatory of the Catholic Church...again, they define something further than they need to and wind up going astray.

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What do you mean too much emphasis on orignal sin? I am not understanding this. I know one needs to know about the orginal sin to know the importance of baptism...

And there is an original sin in Orthodoxy...we just differ on how much that first sin affects us. I believe this was touched on by Paradosis in this thread.

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...again I am sorry for not understanding...I am stupid...

And again, I say, you're not! You know, in a way, you're blessed in a way we eggheads and "Geek Orthodox" aren't! You have a much better chance at approaching childlike faith, I think, than we do, because you get along just fine without having to know about the "whens," "whys," "hows" and "whos" of history, patristics, liturgics, and all that other "churchy" stuff. Not that that stuff is bad, but it's like the guy who listened to the astronomy professor go on and on about the mathematical formulas of the paths of the stars for hours, then went outside that night and, simply and in awe, just looked at the stars.

My patron saint, Peter, was an unlearned fisherman. I'm a college-educated Spanish teacher who's looking to go into a M.Ed. program. Who's got the better faith between us?

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Huh? (regarding the doctrine of satisfaction atonement)

This is the idea that Jesus died on the Cross to satisfy God's anger or restore His honor, which has been offended by our sin. A payment, in other words, for our debt of sin, which God pays himself and which will then allow us a "clean slate" and entrance into heaven, since God can't stand to have sin in His presence or allow sin to go unpunished due to His honor.

Problem with this is, God has no problem being around sin; it's us with the problem. He has no problem forgiving sin at the drop of a hat with no repayment; He did this while on earth. We in the East look at it this way: sin's not a debt to be paid; it's a sickness to be healed. The Catholic idea, to us, focuses too much on the outside--paying some kind of debt--and not enough on the inside--healing the effects of sin. It's like going into a doctor's office and the doctor says to you, "You're all better now," without actually treating what's sick on the inside.

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we fast and there are rules...not sure if anybody follows it or not...but I do...maybe there is a different rule between orthodox and RCC? if so what is your rule?

Glad to hear you follow it...Orthodox abstain from animal products, wine and oil on almost every Wednesday and Friday of the year, as well as during Lent. There's a lighter version of this for the forty days prior to Nativity (fish/wine/oil allowed on weekends, wine/oil on Tuesdays and Thursdays). We also have a two-week fast in August before the falling asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary and a fast in June for the Apostles.

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and again thanks

Anytime.  Grin
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« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2005, 06:49:04 PM »

Matthew,

A curious question, when and what age did you become/join your Orthodox Church ?

I ask for reference only.

james

I converted to Orthodoxy two years ago during my junior year of high school. Please refer to the thread Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic in the convert issues forum.  Smiley
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« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2005, 07:40:07 PM »

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It's the part of the Creed where you say, "And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Those last three words are filioque in Latin and were added to the Creed in the 500s without the consent of the Eastern Church, who still doesn't include it in the Creed. So we see it as an illegal addition, as well as just plain false.

oh yeah I know what that is now...just never heard of the word. I dont see any problem with these words. added or or not. but I understand where you are coming from...but in the 500 there wasnt an orthodox...it was one church...so what do you mean by permision of the eastern church? Or am I missing something?

how about the "Hail Mary"? (I know the prayer is not the creed)...the last half was added in...."holy mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" Do you say the second half of the "Hail Mary"?


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Huh. My understanding was that many bishops were under the impression that popes could err prior to V1.

the pope can err in human nature like us...however it is only when it is in matters of doctrine of faith and morals...is when he is infallible and that is because of Jesus Christ's promise ...it will never change nor will it be added or taken away. In other words the pope can make a mistake in other areas....although I am sure he tries his best to avoid errors in every day life matters...but when it comes to the doctrine of faith and morals...that is when the pope is not in err..

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Oh, you are not stupid!  All that means is the need to define everything. The word transubstantiation is how Rome defined the way in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. We just don't see how that's very important; we say it's a mystery and leave it at that.

oh I see. I can only guess why this is with the RCC...I can actually understand why they do. At the same time, I think that most RCC can agree it is a mystery. although I am only guessing on that...

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Well, we believe in an intermediate state of the dead where we get our final purification before going to heaven, but it's for entirely different reasons than the purgatory of the Catholic Church...again, they define something further than they need to and wind up going astray.

my understanding of purgatory is the final purification before going to heaven....but what is this "define something futher than they need to"...what is the "something further"?


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And there is an original sin in Orthodoxy...we just differ on how much that first sin affects us. I believe this was touched on by Paradosis in this thread.

yeah I read that, but if I may ask another question....if this is so...about the orthodox view on "original sin" then how important is baptism?

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And again, I say, you're not! You know, in a way, you're blessed in a way we eggheads and "Geek Orthodox" aren't! You have a much better chance at approaching childlike faith, I think, than we do, because you get along just fine without having to know about the "whens," "whys," "hows" and "whos" of history, patristics, liturgics, and all that other "churchy" stuff. Not that that stuff is bad, but it's like the guy who listened to the astronomy professor go on and on about the mathematical formulas of the paths of the stars for hours, then went outside that night and, simply and in awe, just looked at the stars.

My patron saint, Peter, was an unlearned fisherman. I'm a college-educated Spanish teacher who's looking to go into a M.Ed. program. Who's got the better faith between us?


then I take that as a compliment....there is alot of stuff that I am stupid or "unlearned" about...and I dont think I will be able to get to all of it in this life time....

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This is the idea that Jesus died on the Cross to satisfy God's anger or restore His honor, which has been offended by our sin. A payment, in other words, for our debt of sin, which God pays himself and which will then allow us a "clean slate" and entrance into heaven, since God can't stand to have sin in His presence or allow sin to go unpunished due to His honor.

Problem with this is, God has no problem being around sin; it's us with the problem. He has no problem forgiving sin at the drop of a hat with no repayment; He did this while on earth. We in the East look at it this way: sin's not a debt to be paid; it's a sickness to be healed. The Catholic idea, to us, focuses too much on the outside--paying some kind of debt--and not enough on the inside--healing the effects of sin. It's like going into a doctor's office and the doctor says to you, "You're all better now," without actually treating what's sick on the inside.

I believe and understand that we are suppose to do what is on the outside and inside...for it is what comes out is what we need to take control of. I think there is a misunderstanding here or something because if I sinned and went to confession...it is expected of me (it is MY responsiblity to fulfill) to heal what causes ME to sin......however I am just a weak human...and this is how I am dependant on Christ.....

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Glad to hear you follow it...Orthodox abstain from animal products, wine and oil on almost every Wednesday and Friday of the year, as well as during Lent. There's a lighter version of this for the forty days prior to Nativity (fish/wine/oil allowed on weekends, wine/oil on Tuesdays and Thursdays). We also have a two-week fast in August before the falling asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary and a fast in June for the Apostles.

so do we well i dont know about the "oil" part...however we actually stopped eating meat all kinds of meat (except fish) for three months...I totally gave it up...so now I have to give up in replace of that....so what I am NOW doing is just fasting on bread and water alone.


again thank you...you have been a help of me understanding the orthodox view...
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« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2005, 11:07:23 PM »

All of these discussions are great and all, as diologue is healthy for the memory and soul.

However, no one has totally answered my original inquiry- how do the Orthodox effectively countermand the "Latins" who wield the Eastern Fathers' apparently pro-Papacy stances?

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« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2005, 11:49:53 PM »

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how do the Orthodox effectively countermand the "Latins" who wield the Eastern Fathers' apparently pro-Papacy stances?

More likely with a prayer rope than with a florilegium Wink
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« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2005, 12:28:16 AM »

Cute, but again, not helpful.

Unless, of course, the "prayer rope", chotki (sp?), was made of leather.
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« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2005, 12:42:23 AM »

It wasn't meant to be cute, it was the truth. And I think it's up to God, and you, whether it's helpful. If you want everything systematically outlined for you, with references to 20 proof texts, then Orthodoxy definately isn't the place for you! You'd go crazy very quickly. Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2005, 12:51:07 AM »

It seems, ByzantineSerb, that you demand a response rather than avail yourself the 50+ pages in at least two other boards here from the last 2 years. I am glad we've so many new members because we oldies get tired of re-typing, re-writing, the same answers continually and all that with the loving patience of a cleric.  Wink

Have you read the existing threads here?

Demetri
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« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2005, 01:46:10 AM »

Ben, I highly recommend The  Primacy of Peter

It explores in a lot of detail some of the allegedly pro-papal writings of the Fathers. 
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« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2005, 02:13:35 AM »


oh yeah I know what that is now...just never heard of the word.  I dont see any problem with these words.  added or or not. but I understand where you are coming from...but in the 500 there wasnt an orthodox...it was one church...so what do you mean by permision of the eastern church?  Or am I missing something? 

Tabby, here's an interesting article about the history of the filioque

Yes, there is only one Church, but the Church is composed of several different Churches all in communion with one another. 

Adding language to the Church's profession of faith is wrong because of what St. Vincent of Lerins teaches us: the catholic faith is that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all.

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how about the "Hail Mary"?  (I know the prayer is not the creed)...the last half was added in...."holy mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"  Do you say the second half of the "Hail Mary"?

First, there are both western and eastern Orthodox Christians.  Eastern Orthodox do not recite the last half of the Hail Mary because it's not a part of our tradition.  On the other hand, western Orthodox Christians recite the western rosary (sans the luminous mysteries, of course).   Look here for more information on western Orthodoxy: westernorthodoxy.com

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the pope can err in human nature like us...however it is only when it is in matters of doctrine of faith and morals...is when he is infallible and that is because of  Jesus Christ's  promise ...it will never change nor will it be added or taken away.  In other words the pope can make a mistake in other areas....although I am sure he tries his best to avoid errors in every day life matters...but when it comes to the doctrine of faith and morals...that is when the pope is not in err..

We believe in the infallibility of the Church but not the infallibility of the pope because it was not believed in the first thousand years of the Church (see St. Vincent discussed above). 

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my understanding of purgatory is the final purification before going to heaven....but what is this "define something futher than they need to"...what is the "something further"?

It's unneeded speculation.  We know from Scriptures that we should pray for the dead.  We also know from the gospels that there's a heaven and a hell.  But that's all we know so why should we speculate further? 

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yeah I read that, but if I may ask another question....if this is so...about the orthodox view on "original sin" then how important is baptism? 

We don't believe in "original sin," or "ancestral sin" in the western sense of the word.  The Orthodox understanding is that after Adam sinned, human nature became sick.  We inherit our human nature from Adam so inherit that "sick" human nature.  But we don't inherit Adam's sin because we didn't commit our own sin.  Baptism frees our nature from slavery to sin. 

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so do we well i dont know about the "oil" part...however we actually stopped eating meat all kinds of meat (except fish) for three months...I totally gave it up...so now I have to give up in replace of that....so what I am NOW doing is just fasting on bread and water alone. 

Good for you.  Fasting used to be an important part of Roman Catholicism but it's hardly emphasized anymore.  I used to attend an RC parish where fasting was emphasized.  Basically we were the only RCs in the diocese who fasted during lent. 

What you say about bread and water makes me curious if you're into Medjugorje.  Which is, IMHO, one of the biggest scams of recent history. 
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« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2005, 09:55:21 AM »

hello Jennifer I am just going to respond to a few of your comments only because the ones I dont respond to you gave me info on YOUR belief and dont need clerifing...

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We don't believe in "original sin," or "ancestral sin" in the western sense of the word.  The Orthodox understanding is that after Adam sinned, human nature became sick.  We inherit our human nature from Adam so inherit that "sick" human nature.  But we don't inherit Adam's sin because we didn't commit our own sin.  Baptism frees our nature from slavery to sin. 


so what do you believe the importance of baptism? 

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Good for you.  Fasting used to be an important part of Roman Catholicism but it's hardly emphasized anymore.  I used to attend an RC parish where fasting was emphasized.  Basically we were the only RCs in the diocese who fasted during lent. 


i dont know how many parishes you attended when you went to the RCC, but the ones I have been too talks about fasting and the importance...even in my RCIA there was a lesson about fasting a whole lessen where it all started...showed biblical accounts with the ECF and so on...

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What you say about bread and water makes me curious if you're into Medjugorje.  Which is, IMHO, one of the biggest scams of recent history.
 

Why do you think medjugorje is a scam?  what do you think about Fatima?....oh to answer your question I just know about the medjugorje not that I have read any of it or "into" it...there is too many appearence for me to keep up....all I know about medjugorje is that they havent investaged it yet because the appearation is still happening....but that is all I know...why?  is there something about bread and water that links to medjugorje?  Actually we are NOT required to believe in the appearation (I think I am not using the right term)...but the ones that I have read I do believe like the Ladiy of fatima, and the Lady of the Lourdes...

about how  I chose bread and water...I thought that myself I thought that would be the best fast...especially when I have stopped eating meat for good...
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« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2005, 12:40:39 PM »


so what do you believe the importance of baptism?

Baptism is important, more than important, necessary, because through baptism we join the Church.  Salvation in the Orthodox Church is about restoring the image of God in man.  In baptism, we can become partakers in the divine nature. 

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i dont know how many parishes you attended when you went to the RCC, but the ones I have been too talks about fasting and the importance...even in my RCIA there was a lesson about fasting a whole lessen where it all started...showed biblical accounts with the ECF and so on...

I've been to many RCC parishes and fasting was only discussed at one parish. 

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Why do you think medjugorje is a scam? what do you think about Fatima?....oh to answer your question I just know about the medjugorje not that I have read any of it or "into" it...there is too many appearence for me to keep up....all I know about medjugorje is that they havent investaged it yet because the appearation is still happening....but that is all I know...why? is there something about bread and water that links to medjugorje? Actually we are NOT required to believe in the appearation (I think I am not using the right term)...but the ones that I have read I do believe like the Ladiy of fatima, and the Lady of the Lourdes...

Medjugorje is a scam because it was invented by a bunch of disobedient Croatian nationalist priests.  The Medjugorje Deception

I don't have an opinion on Fatima. 

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about how I chose bread and water...I thought that myself I thought that would be the best fast...especially when I have stopped eating meat for good...

I asked because that's a Medjugorje 'thing.' 
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« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2005, 12:52:03 PM »

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Baptism is important, more than important, necessary, because through baptism we join the Church.  Salvation in the Orthodox Church is about restoring the image of God in man.  In baptism, we can become partakers in the divine nature.


ok...I want to bring up something....you said something that when adam did what he did humans became sick (I think of that when I hear about "orignal sin"...I guess there is more to it I suppose...but that is how I look it. orginal sin is from the fall and human became sick..I guess I am having trouble understanding the "differences"..)....is the "baptism" like the doctors medicine to be cured?


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I've been to many RCC parishes and fasting was only discussed at one parish.


I heard by others that they had to change parishes because a preist was too liberal....well it is like this...you have school teachers they know their stuff....but the problem is they dont know how to teach it....I dont know why some parishes dont talk about fasting..maybe they just assume that you should know and it is your responsibilty to know and do it?  who knows...I dont.

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Medjugorje is a scam because it was invented by a bunch of disobedient Croatian nationalist priests.  The Medjugorje Deception

It's a good thing that it isnt a doctrine to believe in appearations...in other words we dont HAVE to believe it.




Quote
I asked because that's a Medjugorje 'thing.'


oh..I see...

I just think for myself sense I dont eat junkfood or sweets or anything really enjoyable as most think...and since I already gave up meat for good...the best fast would be just bread and water alone..

anyways thanks

 
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« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2005, 01:51:53 PM »


ok...I want to bring up something....you said something that when adam did what he did humans became sick (I think of that when I hear about "orignal sin"...I guess there is more to it I suppose...but that is how I look it. orginal sin is from the fall and human became sick..I guess I am having trouble understanding the "differences"..)....is the "baptism" like the doctors medicine to be cured?

It's seems similar and I'm not one of those who advocate there being a huge difference in the two understandings.  The crux of the difference as I see it is that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that man inherited Adam's sin, or guilt, but rather only his fallen nature.  Mankind inherites death from Adam but not a personal sin.  As an example, Orthodoxy doesn't teach that unbaptized babies who die go to limbo.  Although I don't think Rome teaches that either.

Baptism doesn't "cure" the soul.  Baptism makes it possible for the soul to be cured. 

Quote
I heard by others that they had to change parishes because a preist was too liberal....well it is like this...you have school teachers they know their stuff....but the problem is they dont know how to teach it....I dont know why some parishes dont talk about fasting..maybe they just assume that you should know and it is your responsibilty to know and do it? who knows...I dont.

It's not a matter of "liberal" priests.  Fasting is no longer required of Roman Catholics.  Before the Council, Roman Catholics used to fast from midnight before receiving the Eucharist just like the Orthodox.  Fasting on ember days and during lent was also required.  Now all that's required is fasting on ash wednesday and good friday and for an hour before receiving.  Of course some Catholics know that more than the minimum is a good thing and practice fasting.  Some priests recommend fasting.  But the vast majority do not.

Quote
It's a good thing that it isnt a doctrine to believe in appearations...in other words we dont HAVE to believe it.

But the question is why do Roman Catholics flock to these weird apparitions?  My theory is that since Vatican II trashed the old liturgy and most parishes discarded the old devotions, people have to look elsewhere to get their spiritual 'fix.' 

If you want to learn more, I highly recommend The Orthodox Church
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2005, 02:10:03 PM »

Jennifer thank you for explaining about the baptism and the recomendation of the book...

I do want to say something that the RCC does teach about fasting...I went directly to my CCC to see...and this is what I got

Quote
2043 The fourth precept ("You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church") ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.85

The fifth precept ("You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church") means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.86

The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his own abilities.87



Quote
1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the "Father who sees in secret," in contrast with the desire to "be seen by men."24 Its prayer is the Our Father.25


Quote
1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."


this is just a few out of the CCC.  (there is more)

We also fast on wed and fri on certain seasons (I dont know all the members do or not, but I do...and from what I have read in the CCC the church does teach it...well not stating that the preist mentions it or not...that is another topic, but my opionion I think the priest should)...

I cant answer for the members or answer for the preist who doesnt talk about it...but that doesnt mean the "Church" doesnt teach it.


again thank you so much....you have been a help along with a few others...




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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2005, 02:38:14 PM »

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But the question is why do Roman Catholics flock to these weird apparitions?  My theory is that since Vatican II trashed the old liturgy and most parishes discarded the old devotions, people have to look elsewhere to get their spiritual 'fix.' 

People have been flocking to these things long before the much maligned Vatican II was convened.  There are FAR more practicing and pious Catholics who don't put much stock in these things than there are those who chase after statues that wash up in Texas. 

Also, Vatican II did not "trash" the old liturgy.  The present Novus Ordo Mass was a result of Paul VI, long after the council was over.
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2005, 03:44:34 PM »

Apparitions DO happen:



http://www.zeitun-eg.org/
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2005, 04:12:57 PM »

Thats what happens when you have a bit of undigested gyro, you see wierd "apparitions".
Demons at work. 

Apparitions DO happen:



http://www.zeitun-eg.org/
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2005, 05:17:04 PM »

Why would anyone accuse Theotokos appearing above an Orthodox Church of being a demon?
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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2005, 05:53:06 PM »

Why would anyone accuse Theotokos appearing above an Orthodox Church of being a demon?

Simple -- observing something like this would generally cause more of an awe and supernatural closeness with the "person" seen in the apparition. Not to speak of the idea that the "person" appearing in the apparition would be considered to be the link to Christ.

Why doesn't Christ appear? Why is it always Mary? Because the evil one knows that since Mary was exactly like us - she is our "soft spot". He will use her and apparitions of her, and adoration of her bordering on worship, to distract us from the Savior. This is how the evil one has used the Roman Catholic Church by creating the praying the Rosary reciting the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" prayer. It puts Mary up as the intermediary. She is NOT.

This is a simplistic explanation - but it is what I believe.

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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2005, 06:05:15 PM »

Simple -- observing something like this would generally cause more of an awe and supernatural closeness with the "person" seen in the apparition. Not to speak of the idea that the "person" appearing in the apparition would be considered to be the link to Christ.

Why doesn't Christ appear? Why is it always Mary? Because the evil one knows that since Mary was exactly like us - she is our "soft spot". He will use her and apparitions of her, and adoration of her bordering on worship, to distract us from the Savior. This is how the evil one has used the Roman Catholic Church by creating  the praying the Rosary reciting the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" prayer. It puts Mary up as the intermediary. She is NOT.

This is a simplistic explanation - but it is what I believe.

Tabby, in case you read this, Tom does not speak for all (or even most) Orthodox when he writes this.  Tom's opinions about the Virgin Mary are not consistent with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2005, 06:06:01 PM »

When we pray the Hail Mary during the Holy Liturgy, are we praying to Satan? Are you accusing the Orthodox Church of Satanic worship?

And if the apparation of the Virgin Mary confirms one's faith in Christ and the Orthodox Church, is that apparition of Satan? -

Matt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Matt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Matt 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

And have you considered then in the apparitions of the Virgin Mary, she is holding the Christ-child?
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« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2005, 06:10:42 PM »

It seems, ByzantineSerb, that you demand a response rather than avail yourself the 50+ pages in at least two other boards here from the last 2 years. I am glad we've so many new members because we oldies get tired of re-typing, re-writing, the same answers continually and all that with the loving patience of a cleric. Wink

Demetri

Well, first of all, I can't find the 50 + pages on the issue. I had seen it several months ago, but alas,  can't find it.

Look, I'm not looking for a response. I don't expect people to re-type things for my pitiful benefit. In fact, a special thank you to Jennifer for posting a link!

God bless.
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« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2005, 06:11:43 PM »

Tom's opinions about the Virgin Mary are not consistent with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

That's absolutely true. And also why I said that this is what I believe at the end of my post.

Still -

Do YOU believe that these apparitions are REALLY Mary?
And if you do, WHY is it always Mary who appears?
And HOW is it even decided that it is Mary?
Do we have a photograph of Mary?
Is she wearing a huge "Mary (the mother of God)" placard sign on her?

Why is it so hard for people to understand that ALL of this nonsene is from the evil one!??!!! Go see the people after they see these apparitions - they become obsessed with the apparition and become worshipers of IT and are distracted from HE WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD!!!!









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« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2005, 06:18:12 PM »

Satan hates the Orthodox Church and therefore I doubt that he would appear above one in front of thousandsof Orthodox Christians.

I believe that the apparitions are God allowing the Virgin Mary to be manifest on earth.

The Church on which she appeared officially declared it to be an authentic apparition of Mary.

How could you look at the pictures and not think they look like her?
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« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2005, 06:20:47 PM »



Tabby, in case you read this, Tom does not speak for all (or even most) Orthodox when he writes this. Tom's opinions about the Virgin Mary are not consistent with the teachings of the Orthodox Church.



thank you...for that.

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« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2005, 06:22:27 PM »



That's absolutely true. And also why I said that this is what I believe at the end of my post.

Still -

Do YOU believe that these apparitions are REALLY Mary?
And if you do, WHY is it always Mary who appears?
And HOW is it even decided that it is Mary?
Do we have a photograph of Mary?
Is she wearing a huge "Mary (the mother of God)" placard sign on her?

Why is it so hard for people to understand that ALL of this nonsene is from the evil one!??!!! Go see the people after they see these apparitions - they become obsessed with the apparition and become worshipers of IT and are distracted from HE WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD!!!!












It isnt always Mary.

Jesus appeared also....to many people....for example to St. Faustina
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« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2005, 06:26:52 PM »

Satan hates the Orthodox Church and therefore I doubt that he would appear above one in front of thousandsof Orthodox Christians.

He would if he could distract the faithful by doing so. I mean, isn't THAT what he is trying to do?

Have you not read scripture where it states that Satan will use scripture against you? Have you not read the Fathers and their stories about how even monks have been duped by demons who appear to them in their cells as saints or as angels of light?

How could you look at the pictures and not think they look like her?

Do you have pictures of Mary that we don't know about?

It isnt always Mary. Jesus appeared also....to many people....for example to St. Faustina

Saint Faustina is not an Orthodox Saint. She is the saint of a church which has seperated itself from the True Church of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2005, 06:30:15 PM »

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How could you look at the pictures and not think they look like her?

First, I'm curious as to what criterion you are using to judge what the Virgin Mary looks like? Second, all I recall when I looked into this stuff were pictures that essentially were big balls of light. Could you link or post a picture which shows so much detail that you can make such assured claims? I have said similar things to what Tom is saying in previous posts on this subject--though with about 1/100 the zeal! Wink I also want to know, what was the fruit of this apparition? How many muslims were converted, for example, or has it caused a demonstrable revival in the Christian community there (and can evidence be given that the apparition was the direct cause of the revival or conversions?) I disagree, seemingly, with Tom on the possibility of apparitions (they have happened and been accepted in Orthodox history), but I think the questions he asks are valid ones that not only can be asked, but should. The Othodox tradition teaches us to use extreme caution when we think that we see an apparition, vision, prophetic dream, etc. If we are cautious out of godly piety, God will not hold it against us. Even the Virgin Mary expressed something akin to awe-filled but reverent disbelief when the angel spoke to her.
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« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2005, 06:32:16 PM »

We have the iconography that has dated back from the beginning of the Church, an image of Mary that we also see in the apparitions in Zeitun.

Would you accuse the Pope of Alexandria of declaring that a Satanic apparition is the Mother of God?
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« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2005, 06:44:16 PM »

is there a link to the "orthodox saints"?
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« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2005, 06:47:05 PM »

I have a link to the Boondock Saints: www.boondocksaints.com

Very sweet film. Smiley
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« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2005, 06:49:16 PM »

Please give me a link or reference so that I can see or read about this 1st century icon, or a later icon that faithfully re-presents a 1st century icon. Please also give me a link to these pictures of the apparition you claim are so detailed? I make no accusations: on the contrary, I am the one asking questions and you are the one jumping to conclusions and making absolute-sounding statements. Perhaps this is the first discussion board you have participated in (other than a Christian rock band board), but normally when people make claims they are expected to give some type of evidence to back up those claims. Maybe the evidence is worthless, maybe it's just plain wrong, maybe it's as biased as all get out, but at least we can have a discussion and know where the other person is coming from, and why they are saying what they say. To be honest Matthew, if you can't provide any evidence for the things you are saying (especially when you are saying things that should be able to be evidenced), it makes it sound like you are making things up as you go along.
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« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2005, 06:49:21 PM »

is there a link to the "orthodox saints"?

You can start here:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/lives.htm

Unlike the RCC, the Orthodox don't create saints at the drop of a hat.
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« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2005, 06:58:30 PM »

Please also give me a link to these pictures of the apparition you claim are so detailed?






Photo of the apparition of the Virgin with the Infant Jesus Christ
in Her arms over St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church, in Zeitoun, Egypt.

Photographs courtesy of Our Lady of Zeitun Online: http://www.zeitun-eg.org/
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« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2005, 06:58:57 PM »

is there a link to the "orthodox saints"?

First, all of the pre-schism Roman Catholic saints are also Orthodox saints.  We also venerate post-schism saints.  Here's a link to Orthodox Saints of North America.   
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« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2005, 07:00:36 PM »

thank you....and can you tell me off hand if Mary has appared to any of the orthodox saints? 
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« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2005, 07:04:11 PM »

Mary appeared above an Orthodox Church in several occasions during the late 1960's...though it is hard for some Orthodox Christians to believe. Wink

A deacon at my church from Ethiopia was actually in Egypt and saw the apparition of Mary firsthand.
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« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2005, 07:10:23 PM »

All I see are two patches of light in the shape of a human (definately no details), and... um... Mary with "infant Jesus Christ in her arms"? Apart from my not seeing nearly enough detail to smack myself on the forehead and say "Of course! I can see so clearly that it's Mary now!" I'll have to give some thought to an apparition holding the Baby Jesus...

Tabby, Mary appeared often to St. Seraphim of Sarov, though not in the form of an apparition if I remember correctly. The only example of an apparition that I can recall was one in Constantinople in the 10th century (I think), though I don't recall much about it.
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« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2005, 07:14:11 PM »

thank you....and can you tell me off hand if Mary has appared to any of the orthodox saints?

I don't know.  We have different kinds of miracles.  We have weeping icons.  See Why Icons Weep

Orthodoxy also has the Holy Fire
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« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2005, 08:09:26 PM »

The Mother of God appeared to Saint Athanasios the Athonite in his founding of the Great Lavra on Mount Athos. 
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« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2005, 08:11:12 PM »

Thousands of people saw the apparition, it was all over Egyption television and even in American newspapers, and the hierarchy of the Coptic Church declared the apparitions to be valid and of Theotokos. I'm willing to take their word for it.
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« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2005, 10:33:55 PM »

Anastasios,

Quote
By the strict interpretation, yes.  There are many of our bishops however that are willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt (moreso than the Catholics) so I do not make statements against your Church's sacramental status (especially since I like your church so much).

Doesn't this make you as "subjectivist" as Matthew?  "...especially since I like your church so much..."

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« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2005, 10:36:38 PM »

I am not being subjectivist, I am going by the established teachings of my church in its relationship to EO and RC.
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