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Author Topic: Apparent pro-Petrine Easterners...  (Read 8100 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 19, 2005, 09:39:08 PM »

Ok, I know there was a massive discussion abotu this before, as some folks have noted. However, I wanted to ask a question anyhow.

Quote
"(Peter) The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples." John Chrysostom, Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407).

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407).


Ok, os obviously there are many Eastern quotes that seem to back the ROman Petrine ecclesiology. How do you conform these and other(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,4986.45.html) writings to Orthodox understanding of them? I mean, how do you all pit and refute RC teaching in light of yours?

Frankly, "Latins" love to wield these quotes to refute you all.

Please don't interpret this as a baiting topic.

God bless

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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2005, 09:43:04 PM »

Matthew7:15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2005, 09:48:22 PM »

Are you saying that... basically dozens of Eastern Church Fathers, approved by both East and West, were wolves in sheeps clothing?? Shocked  :-

Doesn't help me much, otherwise.
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2005, 09:56:13 PM »

I believe that papal supremacy is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2005, 09:59:11 PM »

As many Orthodox do,  assume.

However, this is one thing that's kept me lingering between converting to Orthodoxy or remaining Roman Catholic.

Look, I'm not out to start a furor, but I merely want to comprehend how Easterners defend thhemselves against Latins who wield these potentially, or allegedly, pro-Papacy Eastern sayings.
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 10:01:04 PM »

I have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church and therefore, I would rather not argue this with you. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 10:07:00 PM »

It's interesting; I used to read those quotes and think "wow they really prove papal supremacy" when I was a convicted Catholic.  Once I was exposed to Orthodoxy though I picked up the same books and read them differently.  It was amazing to see how many of these quotes are very much influenced by context.  While some are definitely pro-Petrine, they are in the minority of the patristic corpus and the best proof against them is that the conciliar Church never approved of papal supremacy.

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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 10:18:13 PM »

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I believe that papal supremacy is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Quote
I have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church and therefore, I would rather not argue this with you.  Smiley

I am desperately trying to figure out your line of thought, because it doesn't add up to me.

First, you denounce the papacy and call it a wolf in sheep's clothing, but then you say you have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church, which obviously believes in the papacy, or else it would be Orthodox.

You are either a very, very confused little feller, or a troll.

Perhaps a little from column "a" and a little from column "b", I've yet to decide and the more I read your posts the less I can understand where you are coming from.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 10:26:36 PM »





I am desperately trying to figure out your line of thought, because it doesn't add up to me.

First, you denounce the papacy and call it a wolf in sheep's clothing, but then you say you have no problem with the Byzantine Catholic Church, which obviously believes in the papacy, or else it would be Orthodox.

You are either a very, very confused little feller, or a troll.

Perhaps a little from column "a" and a little from column "b", I've yet to decide and the more I read your posts the less I can understand where you are coming from.

In Christ,
Aaron

Simple. I believe that Byzantine Catholics are misguided in their belief in the papacy but we share enough in common that I am willing to tolerate the Byzantine Catholic Church.
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 10:37:16 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Church's faith is the same faith of the Roman Catholic Church, of which they are in communion with. Just because one is a Byzanatine Catholic doesn't mean that you can throw indulgences, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary and other beliefs out the window, because by being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church you espouse those beliefs.

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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 10:40:43 PM »

At certain points I have thought that perhaps I would start collecting quotes to be used as proof texts for defending Orthodox ecclesiology. I guess I never will though. The most I can do is point you to the following material...

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html

Whether the argumentation and sources are all valid, I don't know. I remember reading through it one time before, though I don't recall what I thought other than "gee, this is going to be harder to figure out than I thought". Smiley It does have a somewhat lengthy section on Chrysostom (5,400 words); and at least it would give you some alternative quotes to chew on.
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 11:05:51 PM »

I still respect the Pope and believe him to be first among equals.
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 11:17:06 PM »

A good read Paradosis, I might have read it before, and I have no problems with the info or thoughts.

There is only one head of the Church, one cornerstone/rock, He is the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ.

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 11:21:14 PM »

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There is only one head of the Church, one cornerstone/rock, He is the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ.

Amen!

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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 11:37:46 PM »

Here and here are two places where I give my little shpiel about my heavenly patron and his confession.

Matthew --

Would you mind doing several of us a favor?  Just common courtesy...when someone asks a question, could you please not answer with some vague Scripture reference that doesn't have an explanation attached as to why you've included it?  To use the "wolf in sheep's clothing" passage as your entire response seems as though you're trying to be deep just for the sake of being deep (though you're just being confusing and frustrating).

It also doesn't help, as Arystarcus mentioned, that you follow your statement of disdain for the papacy with apparent disclaimers that some who hold to this belief are nonetheless all right in your book.  You cannot have this both ways, no matter how much you say it's "just the way you feel about it" (I know you've never used that phrase, but it's very much the way you come across).

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 01:14:15 AM »

Here and here are two places where I give my little shpiel about my heavenly patron and his confession.

You cannot have this both ways, no matter how much you say it's "just the way you feel about it" (I know you've never used that phrase, but it's very much the way you come across).


Why shouldn't I have tolerance for fellow Christians, especially those who we share so much in common with?
I do not believe in papal supremacy but I am sympathetic and apathetic toward those who do. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they must have some reason for what they believe.
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 01:19:25 AM »

Matthew,

What does tolerance have to do with anything? We're not talking about tolerance, we are talking about truth vs. error. Obviously if I met a Catholic on the street I would not whip out a prayer rope and start thrashing him with it.

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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 01:23:28 AM »

Matthew,

We should be tolerant of all peoples. I should be tolerant of the atheism of my family and peers, but that doesn't mean I should accept it as truth, or acceptable. Which is not to say that non-Orthodox = atheists, but just that this is not a matter of tolerance but of discerning truth. We can love someone without espousing his/her beliefs.

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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 01:27:17 AM »

We have to accept that things are more complex than what we would like them to be.
Even though the papacy is corrupt, they do have well-developed interpretations of the Bible and the works of the church fathers to back up their claim to supremacy.

Pretty much everyone at my church is appreciate of Roman Catholicism, even though we find that in certain aspects, they are in error.

I really am not fond of Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism triumphalism from either side.
It is hard for me to look at an actual bleeding host at a Catholic mass and not believe that somehow they have as much right to claim to belong to the "One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" as we do.

Aren't we all catholic, at least with a small "c"?

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“GǪto be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

"[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 02:25:07 AM »

Matthew,

What in the world are you talking about? I must be obtuse, because I don't have a clue what the quotes you posted have to do with anything you are talking about, other than the fact that they happen to have the word "Catholic" in them. Have you ever read Against Heresies by Ireneaus? Have you ever read... well... anything at all by Tertullian? The fact that you quote them (and that you quote those works in particular) in a post talking about how we should try to be understanding and tolerant is just too funny. It's a joke, isn't it? Come on, come clean with us.
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2005, 02:30:13 AM »

Joke? Did you read what I said in my post before I quoted the fathers?

My point is that though we are divided through centures of misunderstanding, we both have the right to claim to be "the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2005, 03:13:48 AM »

How can Christ be divided? Why is it that the Church declared Arians outside the Church, even Novationists outside the Church (they had not doctrinal differences) but the Church cannot do the same for Catholics that have fallen away from Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 03:26:31 AM »

Arians are heretics who deny the trinity and the divinity of Christ, Catholics are not.
For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you. 
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2005, 08:19:16 AM »

Dude, what ARE you??

For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.

So, Catholics aren't separated from the Church, in your mind.  Man...if you as an Orthodox Christian can't think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy--and all the Catholics on the board know that I have a deep love, respect and admiration for the ancient western liturgies--then you shouldn't be Orthodox.  You should be in a faith that has a more open idea of what the Church is, because this ain't it.
 
Quote
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.

"Bible-believing"...now THAT takes me back to my Evangelical days...the members of your church, however, do not constitute the total mind of the Church.

Quote
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you.

Well, it obviously means something to YOU, but your PERSONAL experience doesn't mean the entire Church must change a universal practice!  Certainly we can be civil and grateful on an individual basis, and certainly the offer from the school was generous, but this DOESN'T mean we open up the Chalice!

Matthew, I am sorry that your church seems to have taken you in a radically different direction than that of the majority of Orthodox churches out there.  I do admire your willingness to be informed about other faiths--I try to do the same myself--but you seem to be willing to expose yourselves to them more than is perhaps healthy (though this could just be my own paranoia) or, at the very least, you give them more than the benefit of the doubt, saying that there's nothing really wrong with, say, Byzantine Catholics when your own Church--which is much larger and quite different than your home parish, apparently--says quite differently.  You offer quotes that seem to want to take down walls of division between Catholics and Orthodox, or Muslims and Orthodox, as if these walls served no purpose but rather only hindered something good.  Those walls, however, are what keep us out of danger.  To say that we can go beyond them and think about tearing them down is reckless.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2005, 12:09:44 PM »

I mean, how do you all pit and refute RC teaching in light of yours?

I think there’s a few issues to consider. First, like proof texting from the Bible, you have to consider the context and wider meaning of what is being said; who is being addressed, what are the circumstances, what else did they go on to say, how was this discerned through the mind of the church as a whole? The other is to take a look at the historical development of the office of the Papacy, especially after the 10th century with the increasing assumption of temporal power. Would the Fathers quoted say the same things now? Would they agree with the Papacy as it has become defined? Were they to come back now, would they find the church of their times represented in the Roman Catholic tradition or that of Orthodoxy?

This article from the Catholic journal Commonweal I think succinctly puts its finger on the problem with the Papacy and the Curia. Primacy is not the problem, but supremacy, and ultimately really Ultramontanism have to be rejected. The current Pope has made many welcome gestures to the East, but he also beatified Pius IX, which is probably an indication of what the future of the Papacy is going to be. 

Those are all issues to consider when looking at the quotes.


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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2005, 02:17:06 PM »

Dude, what ARE you??
 

An Orthodox Christian, an intellectual college student, and a proud American. Wink

Man...if you as an Orthodox Christian can't think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy

Before I converted to Orthodoxy, I deeply hated the Catholic Church and believed the papacy to be the anti-Christ. At St. Gregorios, I learned the importance for an Orthodox Christian to understand, appreciate, and respect the Roman Catholic Church. In his sermons, Father Michael says that the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and the fullness of the Holy Mysteries, just as we do.
For me to think of Catholicism as heresy would undermine my faith in Orthodoxy, what I have learned from attending my Orthodox Church and how I hold fast to it.

"Bible-believing"...now THAT takes me back to my Evangelical days...the members of your church, however, do not constitute the total mind of the Church.

What I mean by "Bible-believing" is that one does not have the correct interpretation of the Bible without Apostolic Tradition, the Church Fathers, and Apostolic Succession. We do not claim that these are exclusive to the members of our Church, but are shared in common between the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic Churches.

Matthew, I am sorry that your church seems to have taken you in a radically different direction than that of the majority of Orthodox churches out there.


Having a mutual respect for the Roman Church is the right direction, and the members of my church would agree with that. This does not mean ignoring the bad things about the Roman Church such as the "Liturgical Renewel", etc. But these bad things do not make us hate Catholicism, they just remind us of how much we should appreciate and hold fast to our own faith.

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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2005, 02:18:45 PM »

Apparently you've replaced Pope John Paul II with Father Michael.
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2005, 02:22:20 PM »

Father Michael is not infallible but he has yet to teach me anything that goes in contradiction with The Bible, the Church or with reason.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2005, 02:29:34 PM »

How can Christ be divided? Why is it that the Church declared Arians outside the Church, even Novationists outside the Church (they had not doctrinal differences) but the Church cannot do the same for Catholics that have fallen away from Orthodoxy?

Didn't your church declare my church "outside the church"?
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2005, 02:40:55 PM »

Arians are heretics who deny the trinity and the divinity of Christ, Catholics are not.
For me to even think of Roman Catholicism as a heresy would undermine my own faith in Orthodoxy.
One cannot truly be a Bible-believing Christian without being either Orthodox or Catholic, and the members of my church have told me that.
The children of Father Michael attended Catholic school for free. Why? Because the Catholic Church is generous enough to provide free education to the children of Orthodox priests.
I hope that means something to you.

Novationists only disagreed with the Orthodox Church on the issue of when one could be readmitted to communion after apostasy.  When they set up a separate hierarchy, their sacraments were declared invalid by St. Cyprian and the local council of Carthage.

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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2005, 03:27:46 PM »

But aren't our sacraments invalid according to your church?
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2005, 03:29:30 PM »

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In his sermons, Father Michael says that the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and the fullness of the Holy Mysteries, just as we do. For me to think of Catholicism as heresy would undermine my faith in Orthodoxy, what I have learned from attending my Orthodox Church and how I hold fast to it.

Father Michael is wrong and those in your church whom agree with him. In order to be a bishop, one has to believe and preach the Truth, in union with like-minded bishops. The Catholic Church holds and preaches heretical beliefs; hence, their bishops are false and so are their sacraments. The Catholic Church holds a vastly difference view of ecclesiology than we Orthodox. We don't affirm apostolic succession without right belief.

The heresy you continue to espouse on this forum is unbelievable.

Gregory
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2005, 03:32:22 PM »

The heresy you continue to espouse on this forum is unbelievable.

Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged" than to hastily arrive at a conclusion.
We should not make the a priori assumption that since the Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox, it is heretical.
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 03:33:29 PM »

But aren't my sacraments invalid according to your church?

By the strict interpretation, yes. There are many of our bishops however that are willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt (moreso than the Catholics) so I do not make statements against your Church's sacramental status (especially since I like your church so much).

Anastasios
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 03:34:32 PM »

Then why should my church make statements against the sacramental status of the Roman Church?
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 03:37:55 PM »



Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged" than to hastily arrive at a conclusion.
We should not make the a priori assumption that since the Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox, it is heretical.

You are either Orthodox or Heterodox. There is no assumption on anyone's part: if it's not Orthodox it's UNorthodox.

No one is being presumptuous. We are only following the OFFICIALLY DEFINED IN COUNCIL teaching of the Orthodox Church!

879, St Sophia: Filioque is heresy
1285, Blachernae: Filioque is heresy, even with "single spiration" language
1347, Hesychast Councils: the "simple essence" is heretical
1484, Constantinople: Roman Catholicism is heretical
1587, Jerusalem: Roman Catholicism is heretical
175(1): 4 eastern patriarchs: Roman Catholics must be baptized
1848: Reply of eastern patriarchs to Pope Pius: Papal primacy is heretical
1895: Encyclical of Eastern Patriarchs: Roman Catholicism is heretical.

I personally like Roman Catholics. I personally respect the RCC. I personally enjoy Tridentine Latin Mass. But my PERSONAL opinions mean NOTHING when the Orthodox Church synodically teaches something!

Anastasios
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2005, 03:39:44 PM »

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Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy?

No one is quickly jumping at anything. The Orthodox here are merely telling you what their Churches have taught for hundreds of years regarding the Roman Catholic communion. Such teachings were thought out and formulated for a longer period of time than you've been alive.

As a Roman Catholic, I take absolutely no offense to what even the most traditionalist members of this board think about my Church or its teachings. It's merely what they believe and what they are taught. I don't think they are right, but I'm not going to waste my time and theirs by arguing endlessly over what is essentially a pissing contest.

If you want to have this open minded and obviously non-Orthodox opinion on the ecclesiology of Catholics and Protestants, go right ahead but don't make it sound like your opinion is that of the entire Oriental Orthodox Church.

You're actually making our brother Tom here look like a Rudder-carrying traditionalist! Wink

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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 03:40:13 PM »

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Who are you to quickly dismiss a person, group or idea as heresy? As I said before, things are more complex than what we would like them to be and therefore it is sometimes better to "judge not, lest ye be judged."

I am not dismissing anyone. I am not judging others. What I am doing is bearing witness to the Truth. I am sorry you find this offensive, but I will not compromise on the Faith of Orthodoxy. When I see someone who claims they are Orthodox, and states heresy like yourself, I will counter with the Truth.

Again, Matthew, I am not judging you personally...I am, however, judging the heresy that is coming out of your mouth.

Gregory
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 03:41:20 PM »

Then why should my church make statements against the sacramental status of the Roman Church?

Your Church is not our Church and both of our Churches are closer to one another than they are to Roman Catholicism. Your Church (Oriental Orthodox) does not make statements against Catholic sacraments and implicitly accepts them because your ecclesiology is slightly different than ours. The Eastern Orthodox, however, do not implicitly recognize Roman Catholic sacraments.

Anastasios
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 03:43:41 PM »

In arguing your point with me, would it be proper to mention councils that my church neither participated in nor was invited to?

That to me is like expecting an atheist to believe in John 3:16.

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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 03:47:35 PM »

Can we discuss rather than debate? Anastasios was posting evidence which disproved your charge that members of this board were being "hasty" and "quickly" dismissing a group. 1,100+ years of saying the same thing is not what I would call hasty or quick.
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2005, 03:48:19 PM »

In arguing your point with me, would it be proper to mention councils that my church neither participated in nor was invited to?

That to me is like expecting an atheist to believe in John 3:16.



You said we were being judgmental, I said we were following our church's teaching and provided it. I then in a further explanation said that your Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, does not hold to the same position.
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2005, 03:50:58 PM »

I am not dismissing anyone. I am not judging others. What I am doing is bearing witness to the Truth.

My point is that the truth of Orthodoxy does not necessarily require Catholicism to be without truth.

 I love the Orthodox Church and this is where I find the fullness of liturgical life, apostolic tradition, fellowship, interpretation of scripture etc.
But just because I experience the truth in Orthodoxy, that does not automatically make whatever truth one experiences in the Roman Catholic Church untruthful.
Just because we experience the fullness of Apostolic Christianity within Orthodoxy, that does not mean that Roman Catholics do not experience this fullness within their tradition also (even though I doubt that most American Catholics do.)

I am honestly sorry if the following analogy offends anyone:
If I were to make the a priori statement to a Catholic that since your Church is not Orthodox it is without Apostolic Truth, it would be rather similar to saying, "My dad can beat up your dad."
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2005, 03:51:49 PM »

I then in a further explanation said that your Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, does not hold to the same position.

I know but I wrote that entry before you said that. My bad.  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2005, 03:54:20 PM »

Can we discuss rather than debate? Anastasios was posting evidence which disproved your charge that members of this board were being "hasty" and "quickly" dismissing a group. 1,100+ years of saying the same thing is not what I would call hasty or quick.

But it would be rather hasty to accept what one is taught for face value without first considering the other side, or at least asking for evidence to back it up.
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