Author Topic: Patriarch Ilia II calls for ban on "gay rights march" "Gay-Rights Rally"  (Read 8031 times)

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Offline mike

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No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess. 

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.


Offline ativan

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Some orthodox people wary too much about my people's "unorthodox" behavior. Save yourself energy for the future and I will tell you one thing: every time this type of parade will be planned it will meet the same fate. In fact, they, power much higher above, have tried to conduct such parades several times before (at least two times that I know of) and each time these gathering collapsed. We, Georgians, might be cruel, uneducated and barbarian orthodox people but how come those clever and humane beings failed to see that if this thing failed several times before it would fail again? They know it but they persevere. Why?

For the records, no gay is persecuted in Georgia. Gays have lived there long time and the had much gayer life when they wanted. They have gay clubs and no one has exploded those. We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this. Gay people must see it, that every time their attempt to expose their parades in open it will be met by opposition from Georgian people.

After all if you all say gay people should have right to do this and that why straight Georgian's, which is perhaps over 99 %, should not have their rights defended? We, over 99 %, don't want such parades and for the sake of democracy, if such a thing really exists in nature, respect our decision. We on the other hand promise that as it was before we are not going to break in their houses or clubs and bit them. Just do it in private.

BTW below is a youtube link to one of those gay pride parades in 2012 (under the name of "say no to homophobia") from last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK2qjGprS10

Offline NicholasMyra

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 09:03:05 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Andrew21091

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And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.

Offline Kerdy

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No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess. 

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.


I could post meaningless photos as well in response posts as if they provided some sort of impact, but prefer to conduct myself in a mature manner.

Offline minasoliman

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline 88Devin12

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

along with people in active homosexual relationships and heterosexuals in non-marital sexual relationships.

Offline ativan

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers. God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.

Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.

There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Offline ativan

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And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.
Father Gabriel said and thought many other things that might come as a surprise to you. Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.

Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.

Offline Orthodox11

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« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:57:19 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Offline Kerdy

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers. God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.

Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.

There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.
Father Gabriel said and thought many other things that might come as a surprise to you. Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.

Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

You bring up some interesting points.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:28:29 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Orthodox11

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There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:33:47 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Offline scamandrius

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!
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Offline Orthodox11

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!

I didn't make it, it's from Georgian media.

Offline minasoliman

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

along with people in active homosexual relationships and heterosexuals in non-marital sexual relationships.
I imagine the Church already excommunicated those if they already have people who religiously believe violence is the answer to wipe them off.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:02:07 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!
What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

Offline Orthodox11

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

Offline Kerdy

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", what’s the problem?

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:59:30 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Orthodox11

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If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", whats the problem?

The anti-homophobia protesters. Yes, they are the "bad guys" in so far as they're promoting sin. The problem is the unnecessary use of violence.

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

I don't know, I don't think I've ever mentioned border patrol agents.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:01:24 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Offline Kerdy

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If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", whats the problem?

The anti-homophobia protesters. Yes, they are the "bad guys" in so far as they're promoting sin. The problem is the unnecessary use of violence.

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

I don't know, I don't think I've ever mentioned border patrol agents.

So, he attacked the protesters you say are bad and he is vilified.  I am confused.  Should he not be honored?

You didn’t, just making a comparison to show the hypocrisy.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

Offline Orthodox11

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So, he attacked the protesters you say are bad and he is vilified.  I am confused.  Should he not be honored?

No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.

Quote
You didn’t, just making a comparison to show the hypocrisy.

Whose hypocrisy?

Offline Kerdy

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.

Offline Kerdy

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No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.

I can respect your consistancy. 

Whose hypocrisy?

Everyones.

Offline Orthodox11

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I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Here's one.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.

Ok, still not seeing it.  I see a lot of people trying to get away from the violence.  Can you provide the specific second on the video?

Offline mike

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:15:33 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Orthodox11

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially when the number of nationalist counter-protesters dwarfed the tiny number of anti-homophobia protesters.

Offline Kerdy

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I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Here's one.
Ah-ha!  A video which appears to actually show something.  Thank you!  But I must confess...an old man barely swinging a chair at a hardened object which did not strike any person, and bounced off, hardly seems the threat he is being made out to be.  Had he whacked someone in the dome with it, now that would be different.  

Additionally, who was the person behind him to ran off with the chair?  Were they together?  The old fella was so much of a threat with his hulk like swing he didn’t even realize the chair was no longer in his grasp.  Understand, I am not debating the right or wrong of what he did, just the over the top vilification of the man.  It seems more like the shoe throwing type of thing done to Pres. Bush a few years ago.
I would like to see all of the video before I make a final decision, not just the media highlights.  I somehow doubt the parade folks showed up in a van and were immediately attacked.  It could have happened, but it seems unlikely.  And if they were, why?  Anyone have more video?

Offline Kerdy

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

Offline Kerdy

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

Offline mike

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

Offline stavros_388

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

No, you're not.
"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline stavros_388

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.
"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline Kerdy

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

Your logic has several failures.  I never said the homosexuals were not attacked.  I also did not say anyone didn't brake police lines, only the video does not appear to show what you present, resulting in my additional comments about more video.  This proves you are not reading my posts.  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 09:05:10 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.

Like the videos themselves?  They are no different than showing only the few seconds where police shoot a suspect and ignore everything which leads up to that point.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:39:26 AM by Kerdy »

Offline stavros_388

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There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.

Amen!
"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline Kerdy

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:48:41 AM by Kerdy »

Offline mike

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  • Faith: Christian
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Not "one man" but 30k.